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Gear is actually dictating your level...

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  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by toddze

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.       Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.    But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.
    This argument is getting tired. If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels. For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post). Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content. It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".  
    A progression system is levels.

    No. Levels are a form of progression system. Not all progression systems are levels.

    For instance, the gear a character gets in WoW, after reaching max level determines how powerful the character is, but it's not the character's "Level". The character's "Level" is 85. The "Level" determines what instances the character can walk in, how many points are available for the character's skill tree, and how far the character can progress in crafting. I'm reasonably sure that a character's gear doesn't stop a character from walking into any instances in TSW. I'm reasonably sure that a character's gear determines how many points a character can spend in the skill wheel. I'm also reasonably sure that a character's gear doesn't determine how far they can progress in crafting.

    So TSW certainly has a progression system, and there are certainly elements of the game that are similar to levels, but it's not levels. It's just not the same thing.

     


    Its the same thing, just a different form. There is level based levels, gear based levels, and even zone based levels. Just because you switch  from one form to another doesnt mean you dont have levels.

    In random MMO "a" you can level to 70, then switch to raiding T1,t2,t3, At that point your not level based anymore but gear level based and zone level based. There may not be a number assigned to you gear or level, but its still a level.

    Progression is levels,

    Levels are levels

    gear progression is levels

    Zones progression is levels.

    Your just looking at cold hard number levels. But that is far to narrow minded. its all "levels"  Everything thats progression based can be broken down into "levels" it may not have a number assigned to it, but that does not make it level-less.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • TyratopsTyratops LondonPosts: 98Member

    Quality Levels found on your items are Levels, the end.  Stop being pedantic...

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon

    All MMOs make you log in....omg they are all the same.

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    Originally posted by Tyratops

    Quality Levels found on your items are Levels, the end.  Stop being pedantic...

    shhh you, somehow admiting that their game has levels is degrading, when every single RPG/mmorpg ever released is level based.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by toddze
    Originally posted by Tyratops

    Quality Levels found on your items are Levels, the end.  Stop being pedantic...

    shhh you, somehow admiting that their game has levels is degrading, when every single RPG/mmorpg ever released is level based.

    Actually it is more that level systems are a very specific style of progression system that is a bundle of gear, ability, and stat progression thru the aquiring of exp on a leniar format. If you changed the fact of your gear is rated by a Quality level, to a quality rating of say A-T it would not be a level system. Yes it is a progression system yet it is overall a free-form progression system that allows you to chose when you aqure what largely with only afew requirements being met, where as a true level based progression system like all of the other games in mmos largely are much more a restrictve an determine route kind of progression with your. Also a progression system can be a leveling system, but not all progression systems are leveling systems,.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,943Member Uncommon

    All rpg's are progression based, no matter how you do it or what you want to call it.

    In UO you raised you skills by gaining experiance with or using items like swords, bows etc. yes you could use any weapon but you would be completley useless with out enough skill. Want to call it leveling your skills... go ahead.

    In Wow you gained levels by gaining experiance, all kinds of weapons and armour are restricted by level. Quests are restricted by level. Want to call it leveling your level.... go ahead.

    In TSW gaining experiance points gets you Action points and Skill points. You must have enough skill points to use certain weapons. There are no content or quest restrictions. If you do not have enough skill points you will suck. Want to cal it leveling you skills... go ahead.

    Personaly I think progression with TSW has more in common with UO then WoW.

     

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member

    I think some of you are having a hard time following me. Sometimes when I say levels I am refering to the cold hard numerical level system. Other times I am not, For instance if you recieved armor A in game with str+ 8 then later recieved armor coat B  with str +10. Your Str level has increased  even though you physical "number level" did not, you still progressed. you still increased progression in this case is the same as levels,  just not numerical levels.

    For example if i go bench press 200lbs one day then go in the next couple of days and brench press 210lbs. You could say my strength level increased even though there is no numerical level value. I still progressed, my str level increased. therfore there is a level.

    Progression is synonomis with "levels"

     

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by toddze

    I think some of you are having a hard time following me. Sometimes when I say levels I am refering to the cold hard numerical level system. Other times I am not, For instance if you recieved armor A in game with str+ 8 then later recieved armor coat B  with str +10. Your Str level has increased  even though you physical "number level" did not, you still progressed. you still increased progression in this case is the same as levels,  just not numerical levels.

    For example if i go bench press 200lbs one day then go in the next couple of days and brench press 210lbs. You could say my strength level increased even though there is no numerical level value. I still progressed, my str level increased. therfore there is a level.

    Progression is synonomis with "levels"

     

    Sorry but you could jsut as well say that your stat advanced to a new numerical value, or to a new level, as such it is not a level system but a progresion based advancement system. Also in waht game does your stat ever called a level at all?, in most games your stats advance when you gain a new levell, or when you get better gear, or you train to improve your stats.

     

    Also you have this backwards "Progression is synonomis with "levels" " as levels are very offen a form of progression yet are not the sole form of progression. the fact is that  funcom putting in ql over making the gear qualit rate (QR.) is a mistake but not trully actually making this game the same as any or all leveling games ever as only in the most basic ways is the progression similar to how leveling progression done.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jesterftk

    i have a QL 8 Hammer and a ql 1 shotgun. rest is a mix of 3 -8.

    What level am i?

     

    Give me every QL for each piece and I"ll tell you.

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    The very first reply to this thread destroyed the OP's premise. 

     

    Calling the QL of a particular item or items you can equip your character's 'level' makes as much sense as calling how many hit points he has his level, or the total number of skill points he's earned his level. 

     

    The game has a non-level-based progression system.  Can you draw some analogies between it and a level based system? Of course you can, because they are both progression systems. 

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jesterftk

    i have a QL 8 Hammer and a ql 1 shotgun. rest is a mix of 3 -8.

    What level am i?

    i know the answer, you won't like it tho.

    it's 42!

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I'm in Egypt, I'm not even half way through the quest content. I'm already wearing mostly ql9 stuff. So where are these other "levels" when I'm doing transylvania and what have you?

    It's not the same thing.

    Tsw has an inverse power curve. At the start you mostly increase in raw power and advance vertically as you skill up your talisman and 2 weapon skills.

    At the end you more advance horizontally,you may Chase certain glyphs that particularly complement some builds for small vertical power increase, but you are mostly skilling up extra weapons, making extra builds etc..

    The tipping point where you start being more horizontal than vertical is mid quest content, while your half way through Egypt.

    For those into doing hard mode dungeons and what have you, its not about grinding out item sets to do the next tier, its about having multiple builds and slightly better gear.

    It's a completely different progression system to your typical eq/wow "inspired" themeparks.
  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by toddze
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.  

     

     

    Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. 

     

    But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.



    This argument is getting tired.

    If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.

    For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).

    Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.

    It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".

     


    A progression system is levels.

    Then there is no such thing as a leveless mmo, and all those threads advocating them are pointless.

  • KeyhKeyh Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 140Member

    Except it is levels, but, as the OP states, your level is dictated by your gear, not just how much XP you have.

     

    Character Progression is really a very shallow, mostly horizontal progression system, yes. If you just look at that, it is a, relatively "levelless" MMO.

     

    However, the gear system is tiered into 2 different progression types (like all MMOs). 1 is the Quality level, which dictates your combat "level", and rarity which dictates how strong you are at that level.

     

    If all greens, blues, or prurples were basically the same stats within their color (i.e. no difference between a 'QL1' and 'QL9' weapon), I would agree that it was a levelless system.

  • odinsrathodinsrath louisville, KYPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    a bit off topic but how long till this game is f2p?

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.  

     

     

    Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. 

     

    But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.



    This argument is getting tired.

    If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.

    For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).

    Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.

    It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".

     

    For me its not an argument, its a fact.

     

    If you want to know your level.... Go to your skill panel, and take the average of your 2x2 weapon skils and your 3 gear skills, thats your level...   having to big differeneces between max and low skills from my experience works bad... its much easier to level all necessary skills for a build equally, including gear skills

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by toddze
    I think some of you are having a hard time following me. Sometimes when I say levels I am refering to the cold hard numerical level system. Other times I am not, For instance if you recieved armor A in game with str+ 8 then later recieved armor coat B  with str +10. Your Str level has increased  even though you physical "number level" did not, you still progressed. you still increased progression in this case is the same as levels,  just not numerical levels.For example if i go bench press 200lbs one day then go in the next couple of days and brench press 210lbs. You could say my strength level increased even though there is no numerical level value. I still progressed, my str level increased. therfore there is a level.Progression is synonomis with "levels" 

    I don't think anyone is having trouble following you. You're just wrong. Progression is not synonymous with levels. "Levels" are a form of "Progression". "Progression" is not a form of "Levels".

    "Progression" is the process of progressing. This can be along a story line, from one location to another or in a character's power level.
    "Levels" are a specific method used to measure progress. In addition to measuring character progress, it's used to gate content.
    "Gating" is when you can't walk in the door find out whether or not you can kill something. It's not when something kills you.

    The methods used by TSW to measure character progress are not levels. For one, content isn't closed off to the character because of the gear they wear, or the number of AP+SP they have. They can walk in the door and die if they want. They can also walk in the door with more powerful players and complete the content. For another, "Levels" can't be changed by the player or the character. There may be systems in place to deduct levels or XP from a character upon death, but the player or character can't change anything that affects the character's level. The character's level is absolute and untouchable by the player.

    The levels aren't hidden, the game just isn't using levels as the method of progression. That doesn't mean progression doesn't exist.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    I think that the whole QL thing is a bit worse. For example, as you're leveling in WoW, it order to run Scarlet Monastery your character needs to be around level 30, if I remember correctly. In TSW you need to have QL3 items in order to run Polaris, QL5 for Inferno and so on, especially if you're a tank or a healer. The difference is that everyone will eventually get to level 30 but to get QL3 items you need to get lucky with the drops.

    It's basically the same type of gear requirements WoW end game heroics and raids have but this time it's not limited to the end game. The whole game requires you to have a certain gear quality in order to run instances. Which, in my opinion, is not good for leveling instances.

    image

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by heartless

    I think that the whole QL thing is a bit worse. For example, as you're leveling in WoW, it order to run Scarlet Monastery your character needs to be around level 30, if I remember correctly. In TSW you need to have QL3 items in order to run Polaris, QL5 for Inferno and so on, especially if you're a tank or a healer. The difference is that everyone will eventually get to level 30 but to get QL3 items you need to get lucky with the drops.

    It's basically the same type of gear requirements WoW end game heroics and raids have but this time it's not limited to the end game. The whole game requires you to have a certain gear quality in order to run instances. Which, in my opinion, is not good for leveling instances.

     This isn't true at all. I have tanked and healed Polaris, Inferno, and DW and not once was I QL3, QL5, or whatever the fuck magical number some people throw out there. If you do the quests in the zone the dungeon is in you will be fine gear wise for said dungeon.

    ...and no I have not been lucky with drops. I can't get healing gear to drop to save my life.

    I am not saying gear isn't important but this myth that you have to have a certain QL to the point of needing to farm drops or repeat quests is simply wrong. At least for the first three dungeons.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by odinsrath

    a bit off topic but how long till this game is f2p?

     Ask again in a year and maybe we can shake the magic eight ball then.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • MadKingMadKing Pompano Beach, FLPosts: 173Member

    I was in the closed beta and used the F.A.T.E system to unlock all the skills & QL10 items, to be honest i was disappointed. Most if not all the skills were the same with different names they shared the same animation and special effects and the QL10 items made me put out some serious damage. I was basically killing mobs in PvE with 1 or 2 hits. so yes I agree that gear does dictate your level and play a big part in this game and don't get me started on PvP.

     

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by heartless

    I think that the whole QL thing is a bit worse. For example, as you're leveling in WoW, it order to run Scarlet Monastery your character needs to be around level 30, if I remember correctly. In TSW you need to have QL3 items in order to run Polaris, QL5 for Inferno and so on, especially if you're a tank or a healer. The difference is that everyone will eventually get to level 30 but to get QL3 items you need to get lucky with the drops.

    It's basically the same type of gear requirements WoW end game heroics and raids have but this time it's not limited to the end game. The whole game requires you to have a certain gear quality in order to run instances. Which, in my opinion, is not good for leveling instances.

     This isn't true at all. I have tanked and healed Polaris, Inferno, and DW and not once was I QL3, QL5, or whatever the fuck magical number some people throw out there. If you do the quests in the zone the dungeon is in you will be fine gear wise for said dungeon.

    ...and no I have not been lucky with drops. I can't get healing gear to drop to save my life.

    I am not saying gear isn't important but this myth that you have to have a certain QL to the point of needing to farm drops or repeat quests is simply wrong. At least for the first three dungeons.

    I've been in a few instances when the tank and the healer just couldn't do it because their gear was subpar. Like the last fight in DW or even Polaris. Obviously the build plays a role as well but you can't honestly tell me that you can tank through DW with QL2 gear.

    In you do most of the quests in the zone, you get appropriate QL gear for the instance in that zone. The problem is that very often the gear may not be what you need for your build.

    Edit: besides, the community itself is treating the whole QL thing is gospel. So as far as most players are concerned, you need to have certain QL gear in order to participate which brings me right back to my point: that gearism, which usually exists at the endgame in other games, exists in TSW from the very first instance.

    image

  • AratakiArataki Chicago, ILPosts: 239Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by heartless

    I think that the whole QL thing is a bit worse. For example, as you're leveling in WoW, it order to run Scarlet Monastery your character needs to be around level 30, if I remember correctly. In TSW you need to have QL3 items in order to run Polaris, QL5 for Inferno and so on, especially if you're a tank or a healer. The difference is that everyone will eventually get to level 30 but to get QL3 items you need to get lucky with the drops.

    It's basically the same type of gear requirements WoW end game heroics and raids have but this time it's not limited to the end game. The whole game requires you to have a certain gear quality in order to run instances. Which, in my opinion, is not good for leveling instances.

     This isn't true at all. I have tanked and healed Polaris, Inferno, and DW and not once was I QL3, QL5, or whatever the fuck magical number some people throw out there. If you do the quests in the zone the dungeon is in you will be fine gear wise for said dungeon.

    ...and no I have not been lucky with drops. I can't get healing gear to drop to save my life.

    I am not saying gear isn't important but this myth that you have to have a certain QL to the point of needing to farm drops or repeat quests is simply wrong. At least for the first three dungeons.

    Correct Wicked. I have healed in Q4-5 gear in Ankh the first dungeon in Egypt as AR/Blood. There is no gating of content. This remains true for every dungeon aside from the Elite versions.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by heartless

    I've been in a few instances when the tank and the healer just couldn't do it because their gear was subpar. Like the last fight in DW or even Polaris. Obviously the build plays a role as well but you can't honestly tell me that you can tank through DW with QL2 gear.

    In you do most of the quests in the zone, you get appropriate QL gear for the instance in that zone. The problem is that very often the gear may not be what you need for your build.

    Edit: besides, the community itself is treating the whole QL thing is gospel. So as far as most players are concerned, you need to have certain QL gear in order to participate which brings me right back to my point: that gearism, which usually exists at the endgame in other games, exists in TSW from the very first instance.

     Then it was one of three things. They tried going into the dungeon way before they were remotely done with the area so their gear was simply horribly bad, their skills setup was simply awful, or they simply aren't a very good player. My guess is the first one.

    Really especially for healing this game is stupid easy. A lot easier than some other games. I actually healed DW last night and I still had a QL3 piece on me. Simply could not find an upgrade. Granted it was only one item but still...

    ...and I said that gear was important. Never argued that point. What I said was that by doing the zones you get the appropriate gear necessary to complete the dungeons so there is no rason to farm for drops or repeat quests to get gear. Yes, some are acting like fools over the whole QL thing. Annoying as shit. They're completely wrong about what you need. Really though people like that are usually better to steer clear from  anyways. Ever grouped with them? Most times they're either completely clueless or such elitist douchebags you end up wishing you wouldn't had the gear for them.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • lifeordinarylifeordinary AgadirPosts: 646Member
    Originally posted by Arataki
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by heartless

    I think that the whole QL thing is a bit worse. For example, as you're leveling in WoW, it order to run Scarlet Monastery your character needs to be around level 30, if I remember correctly. In TSW you need to have QL3 items in order to run Polaris, QL5 for Inferno and so on, especially if you're a tank or a healer. The difference is that everyone will eventually get to level 30 but to get QL3 items you need to get lucky with the drops.

    It's basically the same type of gear requirements WoW end game heroics and raids have but this time it's not limited to the end game. The whole game requires you to have a certain gear quality in order to run instances. Which, in my opinion, is not good for leveling instances.

     This isn't true at all. I have tanked and healed Polaris, Inferno, and DW and not once was I QL3, QL5, or whatever the fuck magical number some people throw out there. If you do the quests in the zone the dungeon is in you will be fine gear wise for said dungeon.

    ...and no I have not been lucky with drops. I can't get healing gear to drop to save my life.

    I am not saying gear isn't important but this myth that you have to have a certain QL to the point of needing to farm drops or repeat quests is simply wrong. At least for the first three dungeons.

    Correct Wicked. I have healed in Q4-5 gear in Ankh the first dungeon in Egypt as AR/Blood. There is no gating of content. This remains true for every dungeon aside from the Elite versions.

    I agree, there is no gating of content. People are trying hard to make comparisons with  WOW .

    Your performance in dungeons largely depends upon the skils and builds you are using. I did Inferno in QL 3 with some QL 4 peices and i did fine as a healer.

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