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Is it me or GW2 PAY 2 WIN game?

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  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by just1opinion
    Originally posted by Justsomenoob

    Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

     

    How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

     

    'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

    +1

    I'm going to applaud you as soon as I finish typing this.

    Right, because every single game out there with a cash shop didnt say before release that the cash shop was just about "items that dont affect the game" and then give it 6 months items that do affect the game start popping up :P Its completely unheard of, but I am sure ANet is different they are only doing GW2 for the love that they have for other people.

    And should someone be convicted because of other people actions?

    Addictionally Anet has a history with GW1 cash shop,

    When/if they sell something else, then one can bash them.

    You are right, and I agree, but we shouldnt also be blindly trying to pretend that the cash shop isnt a way for them to make additional profit since the game is B2P and nothing sells better than direct advantages ( whatever they might be, better looking gear, in game money, unqiue pets ). So as someone that understands that a business is primarily there to make money I am quite skeptical that they will not sell anything that will increase their profit margin. 

    I am not judging ANet as the game hasnt even been released, but saying "No, the game is all balanced, they will never sell X or Y" is just the same as blaming them now for something they arent selling yet. :)

    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by Skyy_High
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by Skyy_High
     

    2) Look at the influence boosts you can get in WvW. They are absolutely tiny. If *that* is the extent to which P2W exists in GW2, I can't imagine getting upset about it. Population disparities will affect WvW waaaaaay more than influence spending will. 

    So would it also be ok if the cash shop sold a sword that gave you those same "tiny" performance boosts?

    Not really the same thing. A +10 sword is always going to be more powerful and useful than the +9 sword. Even if it doesn't make a difference all the time, there will be occasions when it does, just by the virtue of the fact that you're using it over a long period of time. Given that all other gear (no matter the source: drops, loot, dungeons, karma, etc) is normalized to the same stats, one can easily say that gear is supposed to be "balanced", and that the +10 sword would upset that balance. 

    On the other hand, WvW isn't balanced, at all. You're never going to be participating in a "balanced" fight. In this context, the pathetic stat bonuses you get from influence (+40 to an attribute that will be over 1000) are literally negligible, because they're just going to vanish in the noise of all of the other WvW unbalancing factors which will have a FAR greater affect on the game. Gold farming is going to matter more than influence spending. Population imbalances are going to trump pretty much anything else. 

    Lastly: the influence system is a fundamental part of the guild system. Until release, we really have no idea if the influence costs for these upgrades are going to be high enough to warrant buying gems to buy gold to buy influence. There are only 61 outposts in WvW, and not all of them are really worth spending influence to get these tiny boosts (because the fighting won't consistently happen around them). If it turns out that large WvW-focused guilds are capable of holding keeps and paying for upgrades without resorting to buying gold, then the entire premise of influence allowing for P2W falls apart. There is a maximum cap for how much influence (and, ergo, gold) you can spend on WvW boosts, because each boost takes quite a while to research. Therefore, if the rate of influence acquisition in a large guild is sufficient to pay for these boosts on its own, there is no possibility of "P2W", because buying extra influence won't make a difference in the slightest. 

    And those bought and paid for WvWvW boosts won't make a difference all the time, but there will be occasions when they do, just like that +10 sword.  The reality is WvWvW has a pay2win component in Gw2.  At least some of you don't deny it, but most simply ignore this fact and go back to their "But, but, but, how can purple hat affect PVP?"  That is being oblivious to the fact that you can buy WvWvW boosts with real life money.

    Have you seen the cost of those boosts?

    Do you understand you still need to capture a keep/fort before the boost having any effect?

    Do you understand the effect is restricted to an area around the structure the guild controls?

    Do you understand that 1 guild can only control 1 structure at a time?

    Do you understand that you need to research those boosts?

    In theory you can buy those boosts with money, the reality is that it doesn't matter - buying the boosts with money is the least efficient way to do it, the boosts themselves offer negligible advantanges.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by Skyy_High
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by Skyy_High
     

    2) Look at the influence boosts you can get in WvW. They are absolutely tiny. If *that* is the extent to which P2W exists in GW2, I can't imagine getting upset about it. Population disparities will affect WvW waaaaaay more than influence spending will. 

    So would it also be ok if the cash shop sold a sword that gave you those same "tiny" performance boosts?

    Not really the same thing. A +10 sword is always going to be more powerful and useful than the +9 sword. Even if it doesn't make a difference all the time, there will be occasions when it does, just by the virtue of the fact that you're using it over a long period of time. Given that all other gear (no matter the source: drops, loot, dungeons, karma, etc) is normalized to the same stats, one can easily say that gear is supposed to be "balanced", and that the +10 sword would upset that balance. 

    On the other hand, WvW isn't balanced, at all. You're never going to be participating in a "balanced" fight. In this context, the pathetic stat bonuses you get from influence (+40 to an attribute that will be over 1000) are literally negligible, because they're just going to vanish in the noise of all of the other WvW unbalancing factors which will have a FAR greater affect on the game. Gold farming is going to matter more than influence spending. Population imbalances are going to trump pretty much anything else. 

    Lastly: the influence system is a fundamental part of the guild system. Until release, we really have no idea if the influence costs for these upgrades are going to be high enough to warrant buying gems to buy gold to buy influence. There are only 61 outposts in WvW, and not all of them are really worth spending influence to get these tiny boosts (because the fighting won't consistently happen around them). If it turns out that large WvW-focused guilds are capable of holding keeps and paying for upgrades without resorting to buying gold, then the entire premise of influence allowing for P2W falls apart. There is a maximum cap for how much influence (and, ergo, gold) you can spend on WvW boosts, because each boost takes quite a while to research. Therefore, if the rate of influence acquisition in a large guild is sufficient to pay for these boosts on its own, there is no possibility of "P2W", because buying extra influence won't make a difference in the slightest. 

    And those bought and paid for WvWvW boosts won't make a difference all the time, but there will be occasions when they do, just like that +10 sword.  The reality is WvWvW has a pay2win component in Gw2.  At least some of you don't deny it, but most simply ignore this fact and go back to their "But, but, but, how can purple hat affect PVP?"  That is being oblivious to the fact that you can buy WvWvW boosts with real life money.

    Have you seen the cost of those boosts?

    Do you understand you still need to capture a keep/fort before the boost having any effect?

    Do you understand the effect is restricted to an area around the structure the guild controls?

    Do you understand that 1 guild can only control 1 structure at a time?

    Do you understand that you need to research those boosts?

    In theory you can buy those boosts with money, the reality is that it doesn't matter - buying the boosts with money is the least efficient way to do it, the boosts themselves offer negligible advantanges.

    A nice quote for this, "It doesnt matter if you win by a mile or by an inch, winning is winning". When you are loosing by a negligible disadvantage then the negligible advantage is all you need.

    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    And should someone be convicted because of other people actions?
    Addictionally Anet has a history with GW1 cash shop,

    When/if they sell something else, then one can bash them.

    You are right, and I agree, but we shouldnt also be blindly trying to pretend that the cash shop isnt a way for them to make additional profit since the game is B2P and nothing sells better than direct advantages ( whatever they might be, better looking gear, in game money, unqiue pets ). So as someone that understands that a business is primarily there to make money I am quite skeptical that they will not sell anything that will increase their profit margin. 

    I am not judging ANet as the game hasnt even been released, but saying "No, the game is all balanced, they will never sell X or Y" is just the same as blaming them now for something they arent selling yet. :)

    Imagine they have sold power in GW1.

    Many of the people that dislike PW2 wouldn't be buying GW2.

    If Anet goes that route, they will lose xpack box sales, plus cosmetic sales, plus any future sales of future games.

    More, GW/GW2 community is built around PC GAMERS, not RPGers.

    For them what matters is power, not some silly cosmetic or time safe advantage.

    So no, sword+10 damage would be completely unaceptable.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Have you seen the cost of those boosts?

    Do you understand you still need to capture a keep/fort before the boost having any effect?

    Do you understand the effect is restricted to an area around the structure the guild controls?

    Do you understand that 1 guild can only control 1 structure at a time?

    Do you understand that you need to research those boosts?

    In theory you can buy those boosts with money, the reality is that it doesn't matter - buying the boosts with money is the least efficient way to do it, the boosts themselves offer negligible advantanges.

    A nice quote for this, "It doesnt matter if you win by a mile or by an inch, winning is winning". When you are loosing by a negligible disadvantage then the negligible advantage is all you need.

    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Art of War Level 1 Research Art of War Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days All influence earned in pvp is increased by 10% for 3 days. 100 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 2 Research Art of War Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Experience WvW Fort +10% Experience For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give increased exp to defending allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +5 Supply WvW Fort +5 Supply For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Supply to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +10% Magic Find WvW Fort +10% Magic Find For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give allies a better chance to discover rare loot. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    Research Art of War Level 3 Research Art of War Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    WvW Fort +40 Vitality WvW Fort +40 Vitality For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Vitality to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Precision WvW Fort +40 Precision For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Precision to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Power WvW Fort +40 Power For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Power to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Toughness WvW Fort +40 Toughness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Toughness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 4 Research Art of War Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    WvW Fort +10% Healing WvW Fort +10% Healing For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Healing to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Player Health WvW Fort +10% Player Health For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Health to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Guild Catapult Guild Catapult Create a Catapult Siege engine that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 5 Research Art of War Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Guild Siege Suit Guild Siege Suit Create a Siege Suit that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +5% Swiftness WvW Fort +5% Swiftness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Swiftness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day

    See 200 influence.

    500 influence.

    Guilds will earn that in a heart beat.

    As you can see, GW2 always have more than 1 resource involved - sure one can buy blue prints, but they need supply.

    One can buy influence, but they still need players to claim keeps, they still need research slots, they still need time to research the buffs.

    Now, a 2 weeks match requiring one to get around 1.5 million points to win, wtih dozens of locations granting points, it is going to become quite an expensive affair.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    I think what people are trying to say in regards to WvW is that the advantage that can be purchased is negligible.

    It's not negligible in a 1v1 or small scale battle. A boost can quite plausiblly be a deciding factor (even though the boosts are very small)

    It is negligible because WvW is a meta-battle that lasts 2 weeks on a large scale map. Add to taht the fact that Mystic Chests must be found in game, and it is hard to argue that it is P2W.

    IMO, its like purchasing a rocket-launcher to alter the course of a tornado. Will you see an immediate effect? Yup, there will be an explosion. However, that tornado's course is not significantly effected.

     

     

    If you believe that ANY advantage at ANY time is P2W, then there will be no convincing you. However, I would like you to think of the alternative:

    There are some games that don't sell ANY ADVANTAGES  that have gold sellers that are not regulated. In fact, most moderately popular MMOs will have gold sellers who sell power for cash.

    Gems are a way of combating that. Will it stop 100% of gold sellers 100% of the time? No. However, I do believe that the way this game has be created and formed will make it significantly more difficult to make a profit. You have multiple currencies, no statistical gear advantage at endgame, and a legal way of purchasing gold without creating inflation.

     

    Is the gem system perfect? I don't think so. However, I do believe it is better than the alternative.

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • travamarstravamars Dallas, TXPosts: 417Member Common
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by just1opinion
    Originally posted by Justsomenoob

    Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

     

    How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

     

    'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

    +1

    I'm going to applaud you as soon as I finish typing this.

    Right, because every single game out there with a cash shop didnt say before release that the cash shop was just about "items that dont affect the game" and then give it 6 months items that do affect the game start popping up :P Its completely unheard of, but I am sure ANet is different they are only doing GW2 for the love that they have for other people.

    Thats what you cant get through to them. And when those items start popping up they'll have even more lame reasons why its not P2W.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by travamars
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by just1opinion
    Originally posted by Justsomenoob

    Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

     

    How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

     

    'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

    +1

    I'm going to applaud you as soon as I finish typing this.

    Right, because every single game out there with a cash shop didnt say before release that the cash shop was just about "items that dont affect the game" and then give it 6 months items that do affect the game start popping up :P Its completely unheard of, but I am sure ANet is different they are only doing GW2 for the love that they have for other people.

    Thats what you cant get through to them. And when those items start popping up they'll have even more lame reasons why its not P2W.

    I know at least 3 games that didn't - GW1, LoL, WoT. What about EvE, is that P2W?

    Curiously one of them is by Anet.

    Just because you guys want Anet to behave like others it doesn't mean it will happen.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • atziluthatziluth Portsmouth, NHPosts: 1,195Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by travamars

    Right, because every single game out there with a cash shop didnt say before release that the cash shop was just about "items that dont affect the game" and then give it 6 months items that do affect the game start popping up :P Its completely unheard of, but I am sure ANet is different they are only doing GW2 for the love that they have for other people.

    Thats what you cant get through to them. And when those items start popping up they'll have even more lame reasons why its not P2W.

    Yeah... It's not like they have a previous game using the exact same revenue model and a cash shop with no competative advantage... Oh wait they DO!

    -Atziluth-

    - Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

  • travamarstravamars Dallas, TXPosts: 417Member Common
    Originally posted by atziluth
    Originally posted by travamars

    Right, because every single game out there with a cash shop didnt say before release that the cash shop was just about "items that dont affect the game" and then give it 6 months items that do affect the game start popping up :P Its completely unheard of, but I am sure ANet is different they are only doing GW2 for the love that they have for other people.

    Thats what you cant get through to them. And when those items start popping up they'll have even more lame reasons why its not P2W.

    Yeah... It's not like they have a previous game using the exact same revenue model and a cash shop with no competative advantage... Oh wait they DO!

    Really? And what game might that be? And dont bother to say GW1 because that is not an mmo.

     

  • travamarstravamars Dallas, TXPosts: 417Member Common
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Have you seen the cost of those boosts?

    Do you understand you still need to capture a keep/fort before the boost having any effect?

    Do you understand the effect is restricted to an area around the structure the guild controls?

    Do you understand that 1 guild can only control 1 structure at a time?

    Do you understand that you need to research those boosts?

    In theory you can buy those boosts with money, the reality is that it doesn't matter - buying the boosts with money is the least efficient way to do it, the boosts themselves offer negligible advantanges.

    A nice quote for this, "It doesnt matter if you win by a mile or by an inch, winning is winning". When you are loosing by a negligible disadvantage then the negligible advantage is all you need.

    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Art of War Level 1 Research Art of War Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days All influence earned in pvp is increased by 10% for 3 days. 100 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 2 Research Art of War Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Experience WvW Fort +10% Experience For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give increased exp to defending allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +5 Supply WvW Fort +5 Supply For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Supply to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +10% Magic Find WvW Fort +10% Magic Find For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give allies a better chance to discover rare loot. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    Research Art of War Level 3 Research Art of War Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    WvW Fort +40 Vitality WvW Fort +40 Vitality For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Vitality to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Precision WvW Fort +40 Precision For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Precision to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Power WvW Fort +40 Power For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Power to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Toughness WvW Fort +40 Toughness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Toughness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 4 Research Art of War Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    WvW Fort +10% Healing WvW Fort +10% Healing For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Healing to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Player Health WvW Fort +10% Player Health For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Health to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Guild Catapult Guild Catapult Create a Catapult Siege engine that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 5 Research Art of War Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Guild Siege Suit Guild Siege Suit Create a Siege Suit that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +5% Swiftness WvW Fort +5% Swiftness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Swiftness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day

    See 200 influence.

    500 influence.

    Guilds will earn that in a heart beat.

    As you can see, GW2 always have more than 1 resource involved - sure one can buy blue prints, but they need supply.

    One can buy influence, but they still need players to claim keeps, they still need research slots, they still need time to research the buffs.

    Now, a 2 weeks match requiring one to get around 1.5 million points to win, wtih dozens of locations granting points, it is going to become quite an expensive affair.

    Looks like one expensive game. I'd rather pay $15 a month and be done with it.

  • nGumballnGumball New York, NYPosts: 21Member

    It is only you.

    Btw, even if its P2P .. Anet won´t be losing anything because GW2 is, anyway, the best MMO in the market nowadays. On the other hand Anet wanted to make a revolution in the gaming industry and this new '' B2P '' is just one of the many steps it is making to make GW2 the best MMORPG  ever made. Which is not that far away btw. So a P2W can destroey everyhthing nd I don´t think that ANet can take that risk.

    PS. For those saying that B2P ( buy to play ) can´t work without '' pay 2 win '', check GW1 ;)

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by travamars
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by rav3n2
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Have you seen the cost of those boosts?

    Do you understand you still need to capture a keep/fort before the boost having any effect?

    Do you understand the effect is restricted to an area around the structure the guild controls?

    Do you understand that 1 guild can only control 1 structure at a time?

    Do you understand that you need to research those boosts?

    In theory you can buy those boosts with money, the reality is that it doesn't matter - buying the boosts with money is the least efficient way to do it, the boosts themselves offer negligible advantanges.

    A nice quote for this, "It doesnt matter if you win by a mile or by an inch, winning is winning". When you are loosing by a negligible disadvantage then the negligible advantage is all you need.

    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Art of War Level 1 Research Art of War Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days All influence earned in pvp is increased by 10% for 3 days. 100 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 2 Research Art of War Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Experience WvW Fort +10% Experience For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give increased exp to defending allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +5 Supply WvW Fort +5 Supply For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Supply to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +10% Magic Find WvW Fort +10% Magic Find For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give allies a better chance to discover rare loot. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    Research Art of War Level 3 Research Art of War Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    WvW Fort +40 Vitality WvW Fort +40 Vitality For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Vitality to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Precision WvW Fort +40 Precision For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Precision to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Power WvW Fort +40 Power For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Power to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Toughness WvW Fort +40 Toughness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Toughness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 4 Research Art of War Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    WvW Fort +10% Healing WvW Fort +10% Healing For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Healing to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Player Health WvW Fort +10% Player Health For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Health to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Guild Catapult Guild Catapult Create a Catapult Siege engine that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 5 Research Art of War Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Guild Siege Suit Guild Siege Suit Create a Siege Suit that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +5% Swiftness WvW Fort +5% Swiftness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Swiftness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day

    See 200 influence.

    500 influence.

    Guilds will earn that in a heart beat.

    As you can see, GW2 always have more than 1 resource involved - sure one can buy blue prints, but they need supply.

    One can buy influence, but they still need players to claim keeps, they still need research slots, they still need time to research the buffs.

    Now, a 2 weeks match requiring one to get around 1.5 million points to win, wtih dozens of locations granting points, it is going to become quite an expensive affair.

    Looks like one expensive game. I'd rather pay $15 a month and be done with it.

    Why expensive?

    Guilds earn influence by having their players playing the game. So it is free. :)

    Now imagine I want to make a personal guild to store goods - since I'll have 0 guildies, it would take some time to get the upgrades and storage I want. So, if I'm impatiante I can just buy influence via gold. If I don't have enough gold I can buy gems and get the gold to get what I want. And someone else will get their 6th or 7th character slot for free,

    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Architecture Level 1 Research Architecture Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    Guild Workshop Guild Workshop The workshop allows an additional upgrade to be building simultaneously. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 2 days
    Research Architecture Level 2 Research Architecture Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Guild Stash Guild Stash Grants access to a 50 slot Guild Vault and gold storage 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 2 days
    Research Architecture Level 3 Research Architecture Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    Research Architecture Level 4 Research Architecture Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    Guild Treasure Trove Guild Treasure Trove Grants access to a 100 slot Guild Vault 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 week
    Research Architecture Level 5 Research Architecture Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Deep Cave Deep Cave The Deep Cave will expand your treasure trove by another 100 slots 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 wee

    Money will give advantages, but not statistical advantages. The WvW "advantages" are limited by other factors like supply, research slots, time, require people in the first place and all can be acquired easily by playing normaly.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • SebberSebber KoldingPosts: 221Member
    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Art of War Level 1 Research Art of War Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days +10% PvP Influence for 3 Days All influence earned in pvp is increased by 10% for 3 days. 100 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 2 Research Art of War Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Experience WvW Fort +10% Experience For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give increased exp to defending allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +5 Supply WvW Fort +5 Supply For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Supply to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    WvW Fort +10% Magic Find WvW Fort +10% Magic Find For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give allies a better chance to discover rare loot. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 16 hours
    Research Art of War Level 3 Research Art of War Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    WvW Fort +40 Vitality WvW Fort +40 Vitality For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Vitality to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Precision WvW Fort +40 Precision For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Precision to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Power WvW Fort +40 Power For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Power to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +40 Toughness WvW Fort +40 Toughness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Toughness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 3.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 4 Research Art of War Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    WvW Fort +10% Healing WvW Fort +10% Healing For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Healing to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +10% Player Health WvW Fort +10% Player Health For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Health to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 200 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Guild Catapult Guild Catapult Create a Catapult Siege engine that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 day
    Research Art of War Level 5 Research Art of War Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Art of War to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Guild Siege Suit Guild Siege Suit Create a Siege Suit that costs less supply to set up than normal. (requires Foundry from Architecture) 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day
    WvW Fort +5% Swiftness WvW Fort +5% Swiftness For 12 Hrs, any fortification held by your guild in World Vs World will give improved Swiftness to all allies. Lasts 12 hours. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 day

    Looks like one expensive game. I'd rather pay $15 a month and be done with it.

    I don't see how you will get cheaper guild perks by paying 15$ a month.

  • atziluthatziluth Portsmouth, NHPosts: 1,195Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by travamars

    Yeah... It's not like they have a previous game using the exact same revenue model and a cash shop with no competative advantage... Oh wait they DO!

    Really? And what game might that be? And dont bother to say GW1 because that is not an mmo.

    GW1 was not an FPS so it could not have competative PvP.

    [mod edit]

    GW1 while not a traditional MMO, did have servers and operational costs similar to a traditional MMO. It was proven to be a sustainable revenue model which they have transitioned to GW2. They have financial people which almost certainly are more qualified than you to determin if this revenue model will work...

    [mod edit]

    -Atziluth-

    - Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

  • travamarstravamars Dallas, TXPosts: 417Member Common
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Now imagine I want to make a personal guild to store goods - since I'll have 0 guildies, it would take some time to get the upgrades and storage I want. So, if I'm impatiante I can just buy influence via gold. If I don't have enough gold I can buy gems and get the gold to get what I want. And someone else will get their 6th or 7th character slot for free,

    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Architecture Level 1 Research Architecture Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    Guild Workshop Guild Workshop The workshop allows an additional upgrade to be building simultaneously. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 2 days
    Research Architecture Level 2 Research Architecture Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Guild Stash Guild Stash Grants access to a 50 slot Guild Vault and gold storage 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 2 days
    Research Architecture Level 3 Research Architecture Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    Research Architecture Level 4 Research Architecture Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    Guild Treasure Trove Guild Treasure Trove Grants access to a 100 slot Guild Vault 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 week
    Research Architecture Level 5 Research Architecture Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Deep Cave Deep Cave The Deep Cave will expand your treasure trove by another 100 slots 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 wee

    Money will give advantages, but not statistical advantages. The WvW "advantages" are limited by other factors like supply, research slots, time, require people in the first place and all can be acquired easily by playing normaly.

    Your first 4 words sum it up nicely. Thanks for proving everybodys point.

  • GrahorGrahor aaaPosts: 828Member
    Originally posted by travamars

    Your first 4 words sum it up nicely. Thanks for proving everybodys point.

    You are truly adorable, people. Like a little cute puppies. You make a pool in the corner and think you've "won the debate". Yeah, you are totally "Winning!" this.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by travamars
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Now imagine I want to make a personal guild to store goods - since I'll have 0 guildies, it would take some time to get the upgrades and storage I want. So, if I'm impatiante I can just buy influence via gold. If I don't have enough gold I can buy gems and get the gold to get what I want. And someone else will get their 6th or 7th character slot for free,

    Summary Description Cost Level Time
    Research Architecture Level 1 Research Architecture Level 1 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 1 500 Influence.png - 16 hours
    Guild Workshop Guild Workshop The workshop allows an additional upgrade to be building simultaneously. 500 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 2 days
    Research Architecture Level 2 Research Architecture Level 2 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 2 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 1.png 1 day
    Guild Stash Guild Stash Grants access to a 50 slot Guild Vault and gold storage 1000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 2 days
    Research Architecture Level 3 Research Architecture Level 3 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 3 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 2.png 3 days
    Research Architecture Level 4 Research Architecture Level 4 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 4  ? Influence.png Guild Research 3.png  ? days
    Guild Treasure Trove Guild Treasure Trove Grants access to a 100 slot Guild Vault 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 4.png 1 week
    Research Architecture Level 5 Research Architecture Level 5 Increase your guild's skill in Architecture to Level 5  ? Influence.png Guild Research 4.png  ? days
    Deep Cave Deep Cave The Deep Cave will expand your treasure trove by another 100 slots 5000 Influence.png Guild Research 5.png 1 wee

    Money will give advantages, but not statistical advantages. The WvW "advantages" are limited by other factors like supply, research slots, time, require people in the first place and all can be acquired easily by playing normaly.

    Your first 4 words sum it up nicely. Thanks for proving everybodys point.

    Not in a competing situation with other players though. Or to be more clear not in a combat situation.

    As long as you reckon that we are in agreement.

    If I have enough money I don't need to work and I can stay all day playing GW2, money gave me advantages.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • PJonePJone Leonardtown, MDPosts: 63Member

    Can we get moderators to lock/delete threads like this? I think it's pretty evident that you cannot use real life currency to buy any sort of items or boosts in the game that the result of doing so is "I bought this so I automatically win or have a such significant advantage over you that it would be a one in a million shot for you to beat me."

     

    Those simply do not exist, getting XP boosts to level to 80 faster doesnt matter, as all the PvP auto-scales you to level 80 anyway. Getting Karma boosts matters so little because the only thing you can do with it is buy gear from vendors, and gear matters about as much to a PvP battle as losing a $100 bill matters to Bill Gates. And if your guild has a decent size (10-20) of even remotely active players (~10-15 hours a week each), your research will be bottlenecked by the fact they take days to research and that you can only queue up so many at a time.

     

    I'm not vastly knowledgable in the area of economics and the like, but a couple friends are Business/Accounting majors and know what pay-to-win means (they game every now and then, just not on MMOs). But when even they say there is not a snowball's chance in hell that the cash shop in its current form is pay-to-win, I'm going to have to agree with them (even though they merely confirmed my earlier opinion).

    image
  • steeler989steeler989 Farmington, MNPosts: 665Member

    Is it just me who thinks this thread should of been locked a long time ago?

    image
    image

  • MuspilliMuspilli Denver, HIPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by steeler989

    Is it just me who thinks this thread should of been locked a long time ago?

    Nope.

  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa cartaxoPosts: 620Member

    where we can enter in contact to moderators to lock this topic?

  • Skyy_HighSkyy_High Ithaca, NYPosts: 138Member
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by Skyy_High
    Originally posted by gainesvilleg
    Originally posted by Skyy_High
     

    2) Look at the influence boosts you can get in WvW. They are absolutely tiny. If *that* is the extent to which P2W exists in GW2, I can't imagine getting upset about it. Population disparities will affect WvW waaaaaay more than influence spending will. 

    So would it also be ok if the cash shop sold a sword that gave you those same "tiny" performance boosts?

    Not really the same thing. A +10 sword is always going to be more powerful and useful than the +9 sword. Even if it doesn't make a difference all the time, there will be occasions when it does, just by the virtue of the fact that you're using it over a long period of time. Given that all other gear (no matter the source: drops, loot, dungeons, karma, etc) is normalized to the same stats, one can easily say that gear is supposed to be "balanced", and that the +10 sword would upset that balance. 

    On the other hand, WvW isn't balanced, at all. You're never going to be participating in a "balanced" fight. In this context, the pathetic stat bonuses you get from influence (+40 to an attribute that will be over 1000) are literally negligible, because they're just going to vanish in the noise of all of the other WvW unbalancing factors which will have a FAR greater affect on the game. Gold farming is going to matter more than influence spending. Population imbalances are going to trump pretty much anything else. 

    Lastly: the influence system is a fundamental part of the guild system. Until release, we really have no idea if the influence costs for these upgrades are going to be high enough to warrant buying gems to buy gold to buy influence. There are only 61 outposts in WvW, and not all of them are really worth spending influence to get these tiny boosts (because the fighting won't consistently happen around them). If it turns out that large WvW-focused guilds are capable of holding keeps and paying for upgrades without resorting to buying gold, then the entire premise of influence allowing for P2W falls apart. There is a maximum cap for how much influence (and, ergo, gold) you can spend on WvW boosts, because each boost takes quite a while to research. Therefore, if the rate of influence acquisition in a large guild is sufficient to pay for these boosts on its own, there is no possibility of "P2W", because buying extra influence won't make a difference in the slightest. 

    And those bought and paid for WvWvW boosts won't make a difference all the time, but there will be occasions when they do, just like that +10 sword.  The reality is WvWvW has a pay2win component in Gw2.  At least some of you don't deny it, but most simply ignore this fact and go back to their "But, but, but, how can purple hat affect PVP?"  That is being oblivious to the fact that you can buy WvWvW boosts with real life money.

    I don't think you read my entire post. Even if you were to posit the fact that a 4% boost to a single attribute, in a single keep, for whatever brief period of time a single guild owns that keep, is going to have any sort of significant impact on the match in general...there is still the fact that you haven't proven, and I still doubt, that buying gold with gems will allow a guild to buy more influence upgrades than a guild that doesn't do that. Yes, you can buy influence with money, but there is a hard cap on how fast you can spend influence because of the 24 hour (or longer) build time. We don't really know what influence rates are going to look like in a large guild that's focused on WvW, but unless buying gold leads to significantly faster rates of upgrade acquisition than simply farming the gold (or influence), there is literally zero P2W here. An advantage isn't an advantage if everyone has equal access to it, without spending money. 

     

    Mercenary slots and skill unlock packs in GW1 were far more "P2W" than these miniscule boosts, and the boosts aren't going to be exclusive to people who pay money anyway. If this is the worst "P2W" that GW2 has, it really goes to show how well the cash shop was designed. 

  • TuchakaTuchaka san diego, CAPosts: 468Member

    too bad its not pay to have your OCD cured some gamers could really use it

  • MMO_REVIEWERMMO_REVIEWER Harker Heights, TXPosts: 371Member
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by Master10K

    I can link to. image

    So by his definition WvWvW is P2W in GW2.

    The person who uses money can buy more defenses and weapons.

    This guy again... He lives to disagree.

    MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.

This discussion has been closed.