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Question: Is raiding really that bad?

maskmurdamaskmurda florida, FLPosts: 79Member

I've been thinking. As we get closer to the launch of GW2, I can't help at wonder why they cant' add in raiding to the game.

As I see it, raiding isn't a feature that locks players into grinding, a horrible treadmill up a pointless latter, it was the companies that chose and implimented features that made it seem bad. For example, most raiding requires the trinity because they designed the treadmill around it and thus was able to create longevity in their game and bottlenecked players into the horrible gear grind. Some liked it, primarily those who were part of a guild dedicated enough to complete those task. But games that are progressive like GW2, I don't see why raids wouldn't be successful in it. With pass games, the raiding content was scalled based on gear level and being competent to a certain degree. Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb? I love the thought of progression, I actually like raiding, I just didn't like the fact that I could do a raid for 2 hours and get shafted out of loot for several reasons, or if I'm not in a dedicated guild get a raid spot or the stupid gold runs that make things even worse.

 

So my question is, is raiding really bad, or is it's linear presentation giving it a bad rep? I think raiding can be done very well, especially in GW2 seeing how well they handle dynamic events. I wouldn't really mind having a 10-15 player group of friends without depending on certain classes or roles given the right environment and tools for us to feel accomplished and the sense of structed progression. Ofcourse the gear climb is always a problem, but it's always how the content was distributed I feel that made it seem pointless, frustraiting due to the trinity, or business model presented. Just a thought.

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Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maskmurda

    Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb?

    There's the problem.  Either the best gear comes from raiding, or else it doesn't.  You're proposing that it should.  People interested in GW2 tend not to be looking for a generic WoW-clone--and mandatory raiding is one of the major complaints about WoW-clones.

    Has there ever been a raiding game where you didn't have to go raiding to get the best gear?  My experience has been that raiders insist that raiding should give the best gear, and getting the best gear in the game is most of the point of raiding.  Most won't explicitly admit that, but will implicitly admit it when they claim that raiding needs to give the best gear, as otherwise, no one would do it.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    It's neither good nor bad. It's a particular play style that ArenaNet has chosen to not really cater to.

    There actually is raiding of sorts in the game. Every single event scales to the amount of participants. This can potentially  turns each event into a raid. There are also large world bosses that require a large amount of people kill. That's about as far as it goes.

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  • andre369andre369 .Posts: 948Member Uncommon

    I would rather not have it. I like that they go with smaller teams. There will be hard DEs that will require alot of people to do. As there is no trinity in GW2 it would be easier to make groups for bigger teams dough. But I would rather not have it ingame at all than having to spam chat for 30 min to get the people you need. 

  • Poison_AdelePoison_Adele Seattle, WAPosts: 287Member

    As far as my guild and I are concerned, the ideal raiding situation--working together to take down an impossively difficult boss for loot and glory--is still present in the game. Dungeons and as heartless pointed out, dynamic bosses both make this possible but in a much more satisfying way.

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  • maskmurdamaskmurda florida, FLPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by maskmurda

    Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb?

    There's the problem.  Either the best gear comes from raiding, or else it doesn't.  You're proposing that it should.  People interested in GW2 tend not to be looking for a generic WoW-clone--and mandatory raiding is one of the major complaints about WoW-clones.

    Has there ever been a raiding game where you didn't have to go raiding to get the best gear?  My experience has been that raiders insist that raiding should give the best gear, and getting the best gear in the game is most of the point of raiding.  Most won't explicitly admit that, but will implicitly admit it when they claim that raiding needs to give the best gear, as otherwise, no one would do it.

    Thats not really true, it's not 100% about the gear in GW2 as they already stated. I see it as a place to get unique stats that aren't really powerful, but special. Or unique armor skins from that raid, or titles or even trophies. Raiding is end game content use to keep players in the game, with so much to do in GW2 with so many avenues of fun it doesn't have to be. WoW clone is a cliche and doesn't mean that a raiding format has to stem from it. Raiding to get the bets gear keeps subs because people are invested in the game, thats what the business model aspect comes from. But being that the game is F2P, why not consider it a game mode tutored to those who want a challenge for grouped play outside of 50+ players running around? You can leave out the gear climb part if you want, and just think about the play for prestiege. Players do it in COD and it nets rewards but the gameplay overtakes the reset you try because it's a challenge to complete. Why can't they create new challenges? Limiting gear/ level? challenging obsticles? I think it can be done properly.

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  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    Since there is no sub in this game - why have the raiding gear grind. It is boring actually, playing the same dungeon over and over to get gear.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maskmurda
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by maskmurda

    Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb?

    There's the problem.  Either the best gear comes from raiding, or else it doesn't.  You're proposing that it should.  People interested in GW2 tend not to be looking for a generic WoW-clone--and mandatory raiding is one of the major complaints about WoW-clones.

    Has there ever been a raiding game where you didn't have to go raiding to get the best gear?  My experience has been that raiders insist that raiding should give the best gear, and getting the best gear in the game is most of the point of raiding.  Most won't explicitly admit that, but will implicitly admit it when they claim that raiding needs to give the best gear, as otherwise, no one would do it.

    Thats not really true, it's not 100% about the gear in GW2 as they already stated. I see it as a place to get unique stats that aren't really powerful, but special.

    Either you have to go raiding to get the stats you want, or else you don't.  There is no middle ground.

    If all you get from raiding is alternate armor skins, titles, and stuff like that, then I wouldn't have a problem with it in principle so long as there was an ironclad guarantee that they would never make raiding mandatory.  But that ironclad guarantee is problematic.

    Usually when a game makes content that people wouldn't do except for the loot, they throw in overpowered loot to get people to do it anyway.  Even ArenaNet itself proved rather prone to this in Guild Wars 1.  Remember Eye of the North? 

    Raiding is so awful that game designers usually have to throw in game-breakingly overpowered loot to get people to do it.  If they offer raiding that doesn't give such loot, then basically no one will do it, as raiders will go to other games that cater more to their preferences.  Putting a bunch of effort into creating content that hardly anyone will ever do is a waste of time, and those resources could be better spent elsewhere.

  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member
    Originally posted by Poison_Adele

    As far as my guild and I are concerned, the ideal raiding situation--working together to take down an impossively difficult boss for loot and glory--is still present in the game. Dungeons and as heartless pointed out, dynamic bosses both make this possible but in a much more satisfying way.

       /

    This very much...

    There is also meta events that are raid like events..

     

     

    Playing GW2..

  • GundricGundric Memphis, TNPosts: 341Member Uncommon

    Me personally, I'm done with the hardcore raiding scene. Not picking on WoW, but the raiding there felt like a 2nd job to me.  I've moved on from that kind of gaming now and that is one of the things that has attracted me to GW2 honestly.  I'm not a "casual" player but I've moved on from having to dedicate myself  and a my whole night multiple times a week to raiding.  I don't really care to grind gear.  I just wanna hop on, have fun with people, do some world pvp or pve in a group and get the F-off.   

    Raiding and the gear that goes with it just brings out the worst in people.  (This is coming from a former leader of a sucessful raiding guild.)  

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 985Member Uncommon

    As stated in many other threads, the average age of a gamer these days is around 30 (http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp).  As the avergae gamer gets older, we still want to play games as we've done for years, but the commitment to playing for 3-4+ hours at a time to POSSIBLY get a new piece of super-gear isn't there.  Families, jobs we have to get up in the morning for (and are therefore reluctant to stay in a raid lasting pretty late), those are reasons I stopped raiding, anyway.  I doubt raiding will die out, but I have a feeling the future will consist of a lot less focus on the raid.

  • MattVidMattVid Terre Haute, INPosts: 399Member

    I don't think raiding is necessarily bad, I am just tired of it. Mostly due to the bad experiences I have had and drama that usually ensues due to drops/leadership/who gets to go/who doesn't/etc.

    Also, pretty much every game I have played, raiding is a blast for the first few runs. Then it hits "farm status" and it gets super boring. If they made raiding "skill based" (I already think it is, in other games). You would beat it and then what? You are just done? The only way to really reward it is to have some kind of treadmill/grind fest.

    I just don't really want to do it anymore. I have played games and raided since the EQ days, and just don't really plan on doing it anymore, at least soon. I much prefer smaller groups and fun/engaging/challenging content for 5-8 people.

    I would imagine that some of the later game dynamic events would be almost like a raid. But definitely not in the traditional sense. We will just have to see how it plays out.

    EDIT: Also, as others have said, the time commitment becomes more difficult  as you get older, I think. Even if it is just dungeons that take 3+ hours. I am 29, with a wife and a full time 40+ hour a week job. Most nights, I just don't have the time to sit down and play that long. If this was changed, it would probably spark my interest in it again ;)

  • GundricGundric Memphis, TNPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jdlamson75

    As stated in many other threads, the average age of a gamer these days is around 30 (http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp).  As the avergae gamer gets older, we still want to play games as we've done for years, but the commitment to playing for 3-4+ hours at a time to POSSIBLY get a new piece of super-gear isn't there.  Families, jobs we have to get up in the morning for (and are therefore reluctant to stay in a raid lasting pretty late), those are reasons I stopped raiding, anyway.  I doubt raiding will die out, but I have a feeling the future will consist of a lot less focus on the raid.

    This ^   I'm 29 btw image   (and no I don't want a dumbed down game. Just one that I don't HAVE to play for 5+ hours strait. In raids you have to schedule taking a piss)

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member

    i cvant stand it, dont mind if others want tot do it, but how many people really raid?  how many games out there cater to raiders so much totaly out of proportion?

     

    smart move on arenanets part, theres a million and one raid grinders out there for players who priority is raiding.

  • HonnerHonner SydneyPosts: 504Member

    In GW2 you have a raid in every corner where ever you get 10+ players with you. Dynamic event bosses can became hard to kill and may take a while kill one.

     

    For the others raid like WoW style, no I don't want them is a waste of resources in something that about the 5% of the players will only be available to do. and then they came with the LFR tool which make the content laughable....

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member

    I'm very pleased it is not in this game, have long long LONG since driven raiding into the ground.  It's the anti-fun to me now.

     

    This idea of having to schedule people to show up at certain times just to do PVE content, along with big delays before doing it again in the form of long respawns/lockout timers etc...it's just awful.

     

    It looks like there's going to be lots of stuff in the PVE game where you'll be able to team up with lots of people to kill some big boss...it just won't be necessary to get your guild on the same page to make it happen (or in fact, to even be guilded!).

     

    You can just go over where the people are and jump in.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    The other problem with raiding is it leads to 'Elitist' attitudes - on builds, equipment, etc. This game was designed for a casual gamer and raiding is not.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • doragon86doragon86 Boston, MAPosts: 589Member

     


    Is there much difference between having 5, 10, 20, or 40 people in an instance? Only difference I see is how much easier it is to gather 5 people for an instance vs. 10, 20, or 40. Not to mention the ease of coordinating 5 people vs 10 or more. Bottom line, it seems to come down to accessibility and ease. 

    "For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
    And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
    And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
    And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
    ~Lord George Gordon Byron

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhgk107YwRc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8GJcGIVbI

    Please tell me the difference. Other than that one has better graphics and slightly different mechanincs, what is the core idea for both fights? So GW2 already has raiding... it is just its raiding.

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KingJiggly

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhgk107YwRc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8GJcGIVbI

    Please tell me the difference. Other than that one has better graphics and slightly different mechanincs, what is the core idea for both fights? So GW2 already has raiding... it is just its raiding.

     

    You have to understand the mentallity of hardcore raiders.  It's more about control, exclusivity, and only playing with the ones they so choose.  They have none of this in GW2 and i can see why they have little interest in it.

    For me personally, i've been there done that and i'm ready to move on to playing a game like a game and not a second job.

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member

    Raiding in Rift was the single worst experience of my entire mmo carrer.  If that's what it was like in WoW I'm glad I never played that game either.  If they're were going to add raids in any form that resembles that craptastic content then I won't be doing it.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by tollbooth

    Raiding in Rift was the single worst experience of my entire mmo carrer.  If that's what it was like in WoW I'm glad I never played that game either.  If they're were going to add raids in any form that resembles that craptastic content then I won't be doing it.

    Actually Rift was much better for the Raids than WoW. WoW had the worst of the worst to me.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • xalvixalvi brooklyn, NYPosts: 329Member

    I rather enjoy raiding, it makes your guild come together and fu** shit up. Honestly i don't want a new raid every week or so, a simple raid every month or two would be just fine. IMO though, it won't happen because anet can fund so many content, i don't think their budget is high enough to add a raid content its just too much, don't forget this game is free to play :p

    Basically i think this is more of a finanical issue, and you couldn't blame them. Otherwise i wouldve loved to raid and such.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon

    I'd rather grind mobs than raid.

    Raiding brings out some of the worst people. Very rude. If it's not with trusted guild members then I personally would pass on raiding.

  • Arathir86Arathir86 CanberraPosts: 442Member Uncommon

    GW2 Already has Raiding... It's called W-v-W.

     

    And here's the kicker, the content wont become outdated because the players ARE the content, and with most PvP games the Meta will constantly change.

    "The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

  • atziluthatziluth Portsmouth, NHPosts: 1,195Member Uncommon

    Lots of PC responses.

     

    Raiding is the single worste idea in the MMO genre to date. It is a blight that ultimately takes over games to be nothing more than raid farms. Having spent time in hardcore raiding guilds it has made me jaded towards any raiding endgame centric MMO. Sorry, but there is no redeaming value in scheduling your life around 5 - 7 nights a week spending hours running the same content over and over. Once the HC raiding guilds kit out thier inner circle they send their minions to demand "new" content with "better" gear. Ultimately this creates an elitist class of raiding player that thinks they know how YOU should play your character and even if you follow everything THEY demand it is still not good enough because THEY could do it infinitely better. 

    -Atziluth-

    - Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

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