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Explain please: How do you plan to Pay2Win in sPvP?

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Comments

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by Valua
    Originally posted by RizelStar
    Originally posted by Valua

    People have to remember WvW is what people are most excited about with GW2.

     

    And you can sort of P2W with WvW.

     

    So yeah, biggest incentive also has the biggest flaw.

    Nope you can't, appreciate the effort though.

     

    But, you can buy WvW resources with real money? Done by buying enough gems with real money, changing them to gold to get these things, but still that can be considered as a small form of P2W.

     

    I think it was a good effort :)

    Wrong once again, I appreciate your effort though :)

    Supply, BLUEPRINT limitations, 3 servers, teamwork, and actually needing to play.

    Whelp that's as much effort I'm going to put in, others explained with a lot of detail.

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • DOGMA1138DOGMA1138 none of your buidnessPosts: 476Member Uncommon

    Sigh some people either never bothered to truly play the game trough the numerous weekends, or are playing one of the 3 monkeys.

     

    1) Boosts - speed, damage, health regen etc` work in WvW, yes you can get them trough boxes but the drop rate of keys and the boxes them selves is more limited.

    2) You can upgrade the keeps immidaitly for gold which in term makes them stronger and makes the yield more resources per unit of time.

    3) Blueprints for sieg weapons and the golem "power suits" can be bought for gold.

    4) Commander "rank" can be bought for gold, it does not give you any advantage but does allow you to "control" the battle, command other players by designating way points and attacks etc`.

    So yes there are P2W elements in WvWvW there is no question about it, if one side has a few rothchilds that will pour tons of cash into upgrading their keeps way beyond the other servers and buy tons of blue prints there will be immballance.

    On the 1v1 front players that will spend gems on boosts will have a slight advantage over players who do not.

    Gear might also be an issue in the long run since WvWvW does not normalizes gear the same way as the "battlegrounds" do.

    But since gems can only be transfered to gold by trading with other players(atleast at the moment) this will be rather normalized since no gold will be "added" to a server just trough the cash shop, how ever even a single player not to mention a dedicated group of players who will have much more gold to spend than the normal player can and will effect the course of the battle.

  • Master10KMaster10K LondonPosts: 3,065Member
    Originally posted by DOGMA1138

    Sigh some people either never bothered to truly play the game trough the numerous weekends, or are playing one of the 3 monkeys.

     

    1) Boosts - speed, damage, health regen etc` work in WvW, yes you can get them trough boxes but the drop rate of keys and the boxes them selves is more limited.

    2) You can upgrade the keeps immidaitly for gold which in term makes them stronger and makes the yield more resources per unit of time.

    3) Blueprints for sieg weapons and the golem "power suits" can be bought for gold.

    4) Commander "rank" can be bought for gold, it does not give you any advantage but does allow you to "control" the battle, command other players by designating way points and attacks etc`.

    blah, blah, blah...

    Sounds like you haven't played the game much yourself if you truly believe that buying gold with gems would give much of an advantage in WvW. First of all the gold must come from the players, because the gold buyer is buying straight from the players. Thus a player must be able to earn enough gold, in order to sell it to the person with enough ca$h but not enough time to play the game. You want to know how easy it is to acquire gold without the cash shop, then just watch this.

     

    Your other arguements are nonsensical, since they are easily countered by other variables such as supply, influence & guild co-ordination. Also wasn't this thread about sPvP and not WvW? image

    image

  • KidonKidon SesimbraPosts: 395Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    It has to do with purchasing blueprints I think. Those cost gold. You buy gems, sell gems for gold, use gold for blueprints. However, you still need supply to build the siege engines so even if you consider the above as pay to win it is a very big stretch.

     

    Not p2w, since blueprints are so cheap anyone can by hundreds at lvl 85, and if u have 100 bluprints and the dude that used cash as 200 he gets no advantadge since you all need supplys for everything.

    What he can do his pay gold to players to have a huge guild to win in WvWvW, but not even that will help, since there are alliances :D .

    My guild already as alliance, and it wont matter if the oponent uses cash to buy gems etc... he will be stomped either way, he cant have more people then us in WvWvW since there is a limit, and wont have more siege, even if he as more blueprints.

  • DOGMA1138DOGMA1138 none of your buidnessPosts: 476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Master10K
    Originally posted by DOGMA1138

    Sigh some people either never bothered to truly play the game trough the numerous weekends, or are playing one of the 3 monkeys.

     

    1) Boosts - speed, damage, health regen etc` work in WvW, yes you can get them trough boxes but the drop rate of keys and the boxes them selves is more limited.

    2) You can upgrade the keeps immidaitly for gold which in term makes them stronger and makes the yield more resources per unit of time.

    3) Blueprints for sieg weapons and the golem "power suits" can be bought for gold.

    4) Commander "rank" can be bought for gold, it does not give you any advantage but does allow you to "control" the battle, command other players by designating way points and attacks etc`.

    blah, blah, blah...

    Sounds like you haven't played the game much yourself if you truly believe that buying gold with gems would give much of an advantage in WvW. First of all the gold must come from the players, because the gold buyer is buying straight from the players. Thus a player must be able to earn enough gold, in order to sell it to the person with enough ca$h but not enough time to play the game. You want to know how easy it is to acquire gold without the cash shop, then just watch this.

     

    Your other arguements are nonsensical, since they are easily countered by other variables such as supply, influence & guild co-ordination. Also wasn't this thread about sPvP and not WvW? image

    Your argument is nonsensical since i've stated clearly that gold can only come from players, but centralizing gold in the hands of a select few can change an outcome of a battle. It's very good of you to remove half of the content of my post and claim your own crap instead :)

    I've played every beta weekend of GW2, and not only the public ones.

     

  • MuspilliMuspilli Denver, HIPosts: 29Member

    If your moronic enough to fund a 2 week server war with real money through the cash shop you have already lost.

    It would be cheaper to hire a minimum wage worker to work the economy for you and your guild.

    Since you can do that with any game, how is GW2 any different?

    Please start using your brains.

  • Master10KMaster10K LondonPosts: 3,065Member
    Originally posted by DOGMA1138
    Originally posted by Master10K
    Originally posted by DOGMA1138

    Sigh some people either never bothered to truly play the game trough the numerous weekends, or are playing one of the 3 monkeys.

     

    1) Boosts - speed, damage, health regen etc` work in WvW, yes you can get them trough boxes but the drop rate of keys and the boxes them selves is more limited.

    2) You can upgrade the keeps immidaitly for gold which in term makes them stronger and makes the yield more resources per unit of time.

    3) Blueprints for sieg weapons and the golem "power suits" can be bought for gold.

    4) Commander "rank" can be bought for gold, it does not give you any advantage but does allow you to "control" the battle, command other players by designating way points and attacks etc`.

    blah, blah, blah...

    Sounds like you haven't played the game much yourself if you truly believe that buying gold with gems would give much of an advantage in WvW. First of all the gold must come from the players, because the gold buyer is buying straight from the players. Thus a player must be able to earn enough gold, in order to sell it to the person with enough ca$h but not enough time to play the game. You want to know how easy it is to acquire gold without the cash shop, then just watch this.

     

    Your other arguements are nonsensical, since they are easily countered by other variables such as supply, influence & guild co-ordination. Also wasn't this thread about sPvP and not WvW? image

    Your argument is nonsensical since i've stated clearly that gold can only come from players, but centralizing gold in the hands of a select few can change an outcome of a battle. It's very good of you to remove half of the content of my post and claim your own crap instead :)

    I've played every beta weekend of GW2, and not only the public ones.

    And any sizable guild can accumulate a large amount of gold, enough to turn the tides, without ever touchng the cash shop. Remember that WvW is a large group endevour and not something that a lone person with a ton of cash can effect. So what if you spend all your hard earned money to get gold... you'll still need a large amount of people, coordination and the supply to even utilize it to great effect on diposable items.

     

    Also you are ignoring the fact that during the 2 day beta weekends people simply weren't bothered enough to make much gold on characters that will be wiped and that 1-2 months after release, anyone playing the game regularly will have enough gold for your arguements to no matter at all. Just like in every other themepark MMO.

     

    BTW... I remember this being about sPvP & not WvW. Am I mistaken? image

    image

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon

    I've said this so many times, levels dont give advantage in this game, neither does gold- and the only real bonus from the cash shop is exp and gold boosts.

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes antioch, ORPosts: 679Member

    You guys are to easy to troll. the OP corrected his orginal statement but your zealotry continues?

     

    /thread

    image

  • Poison_AdelePoison_Adele Seattle, WAPosts: 287Member

    And yet people will get the wrong idea reading the title off the front page... :P

    As everyone else has already said, no way to P2W in sPVP.

    However I think people when they are ranting about "P2W PVP" are talking about WVW. There's a small amount of reason to that concern, but any understanding of the system should get rid of such concerns.

    Why? Any amount of money will not help the fact that you cannot pay for supply or manpower. There's pretty much no point to paying cash for any sort of "advantage" in WvW, seeing as WvW nets you coin anyway.

    image

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    In WvWvW you can buy temporal buffs for your keep, to keep that buff you must invest ALOT of money wich no1 with a normal brain would do or you need to be millionaire.

     

    So ye you can buy a little buff for a shot time for your Keep, thats it.

    You think that keep will hold versus a good team ? no chanse lol.

     

    But i understand that some people want to make GW2 as black as their dark full off hate filled hearts and bash anything that moves.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Good God. Another one of these?! (Ya, I know the OP didn't intend this, but surprise surprise).

    To the OP: There is no P2W in sPvP. Period.

    To everyone else arguing over whether other aspects of the game are P2W. Stop. Just, stop. The length to which people are trying to stretch the term P2W is ridiculous. People are using it as a blanket term to mean 'any sort of advantage = winning'. No, that is not what pay 2 win is. That's not what it means. P2W means buying victory. It's being able to buy an item that makes it impossible for the enemy to beat you. This doesn't exist in GW2, not as it currently is.

    Hell, even in WvW, which is where the bulk of these arguments are focused, you cannot buy a victory. Period. There are no packs to boost damage for sale on the cash shop. You can sell gems for money, but as other people have said, this is dictated by the player economy. Meaning, if you flood the market w/ gems, trying to buy gold, the value of them drops dramatically.

    Furthermore, this can only be used to buy blueprints (and some upgrades), which have a secondary cost: Supply. Supply cannot be bought, you must take it in WvW from supply camps. It also runs out extremely fast. Also, gold is already insanely easy to get in this game. You can bankroll WvW without spending a dime on the cash shop just by playing the game. Don't believe this? go check out Team Legacy. I didn't manage to get as rich as Freelancer during beta, but I wasn't that far off (I think he had 1000gold, I had a few 100). Considering this was over the course of a weekend, that's more than enough to make buying gold in gems a complete waste of money.

    I really hope someone tries to 'P2W' WvW with their own money. I really do. I would love to see how much money they wasted for nothing. I'd love to see a losing team in WvW try and buy their way to victory. There is just too much to the combat in WvW, both in terms of skill, strategy / tactics, and in resource management. There have been people that basically tried to mimic this scenario in WvW, and have stated it's not viable. It can be funny to have an army of siege golums running across the map, but the amount of supply it wastes is enormous, and there are some very easy counters to such a tactic.

  • seridanseridan ThessalonikiPosts: 1,202Member Uncommon

    Not another thread like this.... sigh. I posted this on the other silly thread about P2W it covers everything sPVP/WvWvW/PVE:

    Because people forgot plain english.... there aren't LOTS of definitions for P2W

    Let's see what "win" is:

    win (third-person singular simple present wins, present participle winning, simple past and past participle won)

    1. (obsolete, transitive) To conquer, defeat.  [quotations ?]
    2. (transitive) To triumph or achieve victory in (a game, a war, etc).
    3. (transitive) To obtain (someone) by wooing.
    4. (intransitive) To achieve victory.
      Who would win in a fight between an octopus and a dolphin?
    5. (transitive) To obtain something that is wanted.
      The company hopes to win an order from the government worth over 5 million dollars.
    6. (transitive) To cause a victory for someone.
      The success of the economic policies should win Mr. Smith the next elections.
      The policy success should win the elections for Mr. Smith.
    1. You need something to defeat,conquer
    2. What is victory in GW2
    3. We aren't giving roses here

    The only part that someone on this thread my "confuse" as Pay 2 Win is 5 "To obtain something that is wanted", but... "wanted" by WHO?

    Now let's see what "advantage" is:

    Noun

    advantage (plural advantages)

    1. Any condition, circumstance, opportunity or means, particularly favorable to success, or to any desired end.
    2. Superiority; mastery; — used with of to specify its nature or with over to specify the other party.
      The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position.
    3. Superiority of state, or that which gives it; benefit; gain; profit; as, the advantage of a good constitution.
    4. (tennis) The score where one player wins a point after deuce but needs the next too to carry the game.
    We don't play tennis so 4. is out. The only one that appears to P2W is 2. You can't "win" if you don't have someone to "win over"
     
    1. In order to see the CS this way we must first define "success" or "desrired end". What is success in GW2 and in MMORPGs in general? If by success you mean "getting better gear than the other guy" then the CS falls into this category, however I don't see it that way. Why? Because you can do everything in the game without buying any items on the AH. It's not like D3 that you cannot progress in Inferno without buying items and spending your money, that game requires buying items on AH (RM or gold) in order to progress because otherwise you can't PROGRESS. From what we've seen that won't be possible at all in GW2, you can clearly progress without having to resort to the AH.
    If by "desired end" you mean getting to 80 faster then that's also not a valid argument, anyone who played the game knows that leveling faster will only make you skip content, there is NO GRINDING so any xp booster will only lead you to skip content, that's YOUR LOSS not YOUR WIN, it's as simple as that.
     
    2. My question for this is, OVER WHO do you have an advantage? From the logic of some people on this thread a DLC for a single player game is also P2W because it gives better items who those who bought it. But is it an advantage over other players? Why do you care if someone has more level or better items than you? Can you still progress? YES. Are you still having fun? YES. Is it essential to have that gear to progress? NO. Then why do you even care if someone else has an "advantage" as you say? Why care? Are you like the little children at the kindergarden who envy their friends for having the newest toy? Is it because of a useless sense of pride "why does he have THAT and I can't have it?"
     
    3. I already answered above for 3. as well.
     
    The only way to say for sure the CS is P2W is if someone is actually "winning" SOMETHING by using it:
    1. If in sPVP you could use your bought items/consumables to dominate, yes it would've been P2W in a way. - We all know how sPVP works so there is no "win".
    2. If in PVE you couldn't PROGRESS without buying items on the AH then it would also be P2W. We know that you can progress without buying staff up to the current level, I don't believe we'll see a new D3 forming at the later levels.
    3. If in PVE there was a serious grind and there were convenient items to skip it (xp boosters) then it would be P2W. - We all know that there is absolutely no grind in the game so xp boosters will "allow" you to skip content, if you are enjoying it, why skip it?
    4. If there was Open PVP then there would've been some sort of P2W with those kids camping outside the noob zones killing people.
    5. And finally WvWvW, do you honestly believe that level/gear advantage will be so important in a massive battle? Well I don't think so, in Warhammer Online or Lineage 2 (yes a Korean grinder) there was no gear advantage during the big fights, it was all about tactics, teamwork and having the largest zerg sometimes, we already know that a small team of good players, no matter their gear/level can win against a zerg. Gear/Level were second rate and they will be second rate in GW2 WvWvW as well.
    Why cry over the CS when it is only giving convenience for those who want it? It doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone is buying items, it doesn't AFFECT YOU if someone levels faster.

    Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  • SpellshaperSpellshaper PraguePosts: 383Member Uncommon

    WvWvW P2W:
    You buy 100 golems for your guild as they can move, you gather resources in base, construct all golems and attack the map at the same time... P2W right here!

    _____________________________
    Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

  • MuppetierMuppetier SouthamptonPosts: 277Member

    There is at least one (European) Guild who are insisting all members spend a certain amount every month in the cash shop to fund WVW.

    Whether they can make enough difference remains to be seen, but they certainly intend to try.

    I suspect their efforts will be in vain, but it is possibie there will end up two tiers of servers, cash shop servers fighting in the top tier, FTP servers having there own battle in the second tier.

     

  • Gentl3ManGentl3Man tamperePosts: 20Member

    Its P2W!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    U have to buy the game TO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • HonnerHonner SydneyPosts: 504Member

    You can pay your opponents to gain a win ... This is P2W!!!  image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muppetier

    There is at least one (European) Guild who are insisting all members spend a certain amount every month in the cash shop to fund WVW.

    Whether they can make enough difference remains to be seen, but they certainly intend to try.

    I suspect their efforts will be in vain, but it is possibie there will end up two tiers of servers, cash shop servers fighting in the top tier, FTP servers having there own battle in the second tier.

    Lmfao. Seriously!?

    The biggest american guilds I've seen are able to bankroll themselves w/ out the cash shop. I'd love to know which guilds are demanding this. It'll be hilarious to dominate them in WvW.

  • gladosrev2gladosrev2 BialystokPosts: 203Member

    Of course it's not P2W.. wait.. you buy GW2 - and that's a Win :O Therefore P2W. OMG how could we  have ben so blind, ANet tricked us! xD

    My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Halandir

    Yeah I know the title sounds like baiting. That is not my intention so please stick with me for another 15 seconds.

     

    We have all seen the often incoherent, borderline rants, trying to explain how the GW2 cashshop is P2W (Pay to win). It sounds like a messy soup with ingredients such as prior F2P experiences, pet/mount sales in other games and the notion that WvWvW will matter, all mixed up in an old dented bowl.

     

    None of the rants made any sort of sense to me... Background: I am going to play Guild Wars 2. I plan to enjoy the PvE part as the designers have designed the PvE world to be enjoyed. I do not plan to spend much time in the WvWvW part of the game (yeah I know a lot of people consider this a major feature, thats perfectly ok but I don't give a shit. Engaging PvP is on a level playingfield in my book.) Obviously my PvP focus will be structured.

     

    With structured PvP in mind (the rest is, IMO, just PvE with a twist): Please explain how you see any P2W advantage in GW2?

     

     

    Strawman, to this point, I have not seen anyone whatsoever even imply that structured PvP will have any Pay To Win advantages.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    It has to do with purchasing blueprints I think. Those cost gold. You buy gems, sell gems for gold, use gold for blueprints. However, you still need supply to build the siege engines so even if you consider the above as pay to win it is a very big stretch.

     

    Yeah that theory is really stretching the limits of believability. Even if buying gold at launch did matter, which I am sure it won't, it certainly won't matter after a month or two when people have their own stash of in game currency.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    There is absolutely no p2w in spvp. /endthread

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  • NeferaNefera XPosts: 426Member
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Halandir

    Yeah I know the title sounds like baiting. That is not my intention so please stick with me for another 15 seconds.

     

    We have all seen the often incoherent, borderline rants, trying to explain how the GW2 cashshop is P2W (Pay to win). It sounds like a messy soup with ingredients such as prior F2P experiences, pet/mount sales in other games and the notion that WvWvW will matter, all mixed up in an old dented bowl.

     

    None of the rants made any sort of sense to me... Background: I am going to play Guild Wars 2. I plan to enjoy the PvE part as the designers have designed the PvE world to be enjoyed. I do not plan to spend much time in the WvWvW part of the game (yeah I know a lot of people consider this a major feature, thats perfectly ok but I don't give a shit. Engaging PvP is on a level playingfield in my book.) Obviously my PvP focus will be structured.

     

    With structured PvP in mind (the rest is, IMO, just PvE with a twist): Please explain how you see any P2W advantage in GW2?

     

     

    Strawman, to this point, I have not seen anyone whatsoever even imply that structured PvP will have any Pay To Win advantages.

    I have to agree here, I've never seen anyone claim anything regarding to sPvP and P2W. There really is no point to even having this thread.

  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Strawman, to this point, I have not seen anyone whatsoever even imply that structured PvP will have any Pay To Win advantages.

     

    I can accept that to some extent. I have not seen anyone on mmorpg.com claim that sPvP has P2W possibilities. I have heard quite a few arguments on teamspeak with people being concerned about sPvP in a game that has a lot of rumours about P2W.

     

    My personal interest in this is that I would like to see as many sPvP'ers in GW2 as possible. If people are afraid to waste their time based on the many, often unclear, threads about "P2W in GW2 PvP" (WvWvW implied) then: Yes, I have a problem with that - Even to the point where I started to doubt it myself.

     

    If not anything else then at least this thread clearly demonstrates that a lot of people have a problem of making a distinction between the two completely different formats.

     

    Personally I am now reassured that sPvP will be just fine - Others are not and that bothers me!

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

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