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Why the lack of space to roam?

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  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,151Member Uncommon

    FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

    I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

    FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

    I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

  • AticusWellesAticusWelles Beverly hills, CAPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

    I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

    FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

    I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

    And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

     

    Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

     

    Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

     

    I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AticusWelles
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

    I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

    FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

    I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

    And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

     

    Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

     

    Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

     

    I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

    Agreed Aticus, well said.

    This is a situation akin to artwork.  Some people can look at it and see more, but those people are more rare.  Most people look at it and say yeah whatever and cannot look past the surface.  Don't assume we are all motivated by the same things nariusseldon, thats all i can really say.  Some of us do want a virtual world that feels alive, some of us do want to meet new people and make more friends and some of us do want more than just min/max must feel like we are winnnnnning out of a "game".

    Note I am not saying anyone is "better" than anyone else based on any of this, just saying we are all different.  The thing I enjoyed most about FE was that it felt more alive than any MMO I've played in a very long time, since Eve Online or original SWG.  But FE on top of that had a very friendly community with a lot of mature players who could carry on conversations on more subjects than epeen or chuck norris. :P

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AticusWelles
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

    I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

    FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

    I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

    And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

     

    Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

     

    Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

     

    I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

    Why is it a "problem"? Devs should be sensitive to what their audience wants. It is their JOB to entertain their audience.

    Virtual world is a by-gone era for a good reason. If the world itself is the crucial part, it won't be "by-gone". It is as silly as to wish back the era where horse carriage is the prime mode of transportation.

     

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,151Member Uncommon

    As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

    But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

    image
  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

    But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

    I am totally with Zoe on this.  I am one of those players that does take time out to view the sunsets and scenary.  Most of my friends are the same but interestingly, we are all older gamers and grew up with table top / pen and paper RPG.

    There is a question here about success. I played and subbed to FE for 12 months.  Its my second longest (albeit far behind EVE) MMO to date. 

    I actually feel FE needed housing in some form as the crafting system and world attracted players who got into that sort of thing. Alternatively have an EVE system where guilds can actually over take bunkers and surrounding land...anyway...

    Playing games like FE give an incredible realism to the world and there is great satisfaction going off track and finding rich nodes.  I found a couple of amazing spots and felt like a kid in a toy store as no other players ever turned up.

     

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

    But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

    You and narius obviously aren't having the same conversation at this point. He said game developers create what their audience wants. You seem to have read "I don't like it, so it's stupid."

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AticusWelles
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

    I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

    FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

    I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

    And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

     

    Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

     

    Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

     

    I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

    Why is it a "problem"? Devs should be sensitive to what their audience wants. It is their JOB to entertain their audience.

    Virtual world is a by-gone era for a good reason. If the world itself is the crucial part, it won't be "by-gone". It is as silly as to wish back the era where horse carriage is the prime mode of transportation.

     

    Devs aren't being sensitive to player wants, this is why all of these huge AAA wow-clone titles are splashing and crashing all around.  The "splash" is the big hype and mega box sales.  The "crash" is servers dieing off within 6 months of release.

    I wonder if devs are being sensitive to their shareholders, and we players are stuck holding the bag with games that have short term interest, but full term retail prices.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I wonder if devs are being sensitive to their shareholders, and we players are stuck holding the bag with games that have short term interest, but full term retail prices.

     

    Seems fair a full box game last something like a few weeks. Most SP games last much shorter. In fact, I was playing D3 for more than 1 month now and logged 140 hrs on my main toon. That is way more than getting my money worth of a box game .. and i have not finished yet.

    There is no reason why a game needs to last years. In fact, i would much rather move onto new games. Having 100 hrs of fun at $60 (or whatever standard retail box price) is a pretty good deal. That is definitely 10x cheaper than the movies.

     

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,464Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rounner

    Look at Vanguard: When the population is small people are too spread out, unless you add instatravel...

    I would love all games to be like that. Where you can literally get lost in the world while exploring and not see a soul. Then see more people as you got to points of interest.

     

  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by rounner

    Look at Vanguard: When the population is small people are too spread out, unless you add instatravel...

    I would love all games to be like that. Where you can literally get lost in the world while exploring and not see a soul. Then see more people as you got to points of interest.

     

    I second that, but I also understand why it can't be done, it works in EVE for instance because most of it is empty space its just an empty space streamer, so it sort of works, but there is barely anything to appreciate in between points if you decide just to go in a random direction.

    Lineage 2 sort of had that to begin with, I remember when people didnt really go anywhere past the latitude of Giran so everyone sort of kept to those areas, there was still a lot of unknown as you went up and you could literally find yourself lost and alone in Hunter's Village, Oren, sea of spores area. And it added this mysticism to the areas "ohh that guy hunts up there", the fact that teleporting was also expensive ( by the standards at the time ) people werent really willing to just teleport to a place so it was a lot of fun going with a group exploring and you ended up finding all of these dangerous areas.

    But the magic goes away as people progress, everything gets explored, people find the optimal places whether they are intended or not, this is mainly because developers cannot churn enough content quickly enough and adding something free form versus something everyone will have to use is just too expensive. I think a step to make this sort of unknown persist is the idea of games like Infinity: Quest for Earth, where you essentially seed ( and like Minecraft in a way ) as you go along and more stuff gets generated.

    I have always been fascinated by the concept of having to prepare for your journey, a bit like Wormholes in EVE, I would love to see a game which is not in space implement this concept within a seeded world, where you have to prepare stuff because you could be literally hours/days away from any hub of people and you have to prepare tools and supplies at what not to actually endure your journey with your group, you are not really sure what you are going to find except for the already mapped areas, the ability to settle in a new remote area would be the cherry on top of the cake. This would allow for people that want to stay within the "city limits" to just stay within the pivot points of the world and people who want to do their own thing and go and explore can do so aswell.

    I would also add the ability for you to be able to place a teleporter if you achieve a certain standard of "settlement" and allow the owner of that to enable/disable the teleporting from maybe the nearest teleporter to create a sort of network, so that if you wanted your city could become a new hub with ease of access of some sort, allowing for the duality of known/unknown to be decided by players and reduce the harshness of visiting your hub if you so desired and in essence create a point of interest.

     

    image

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chryses
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

    But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

    I am totally with Zoe on this.  I am one of those players that does take time out to view the sunsets and scenary.  Most of my friends are the same but interestingly, we are all older gamers and grew up with table top / pen and paper RPG.

    There is a question here about success. I played and subbed to FE for 12 months.  Its my second longest (albeit far behind EVE) MMO to date. 

    I actually feel FE needed housing in some form as the crafting system and world attracted players who got into that sort of thing. Alternatively have an EVE system where guilds can actually over take bunkers and surrounding land...anyway...

    Playing games like FE give an incredible realism to the world and there is great satisfaction going off track and finding rich nodes.  I found a couple of amazing spots and felt like a kid in a toy store as no other players ever turned up.

     

     


    Consider me as clicking LIKE on your post a whole lot :)  I agree too on the housing in FE, that is one thing I just always felt was missing and I think it would have helped them retain more players.

    image
  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

    As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

    But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

    You and narius obviously aren't having the same conversation at this point. He said game developers create what their audience wants. You seem to have read "I don't like it, so it's stupid."

     

    You are right, but I do know what he was saying.  I was just asking if he also feels in that "I don't like it so it is stupid" manner.  There do seem to be a lot of members here, who if they don't like the style of a game will bash that game and anyone who plays it :/

    He hasn't though, which is good.

    What is needed is not every game to come along and try to be the next WOW or try to outdo WOW.  Need some who are happy being what they are even if that means a nice solid niche market where they make some profit and hold onto their customers for years.  Eh, I can dream :P

    image
  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I wonder if devs are being sensitive to their shareholders, and we players are stuck holding the bag with games that have short term interest, but full term retail prices.

     

    Seems fair a full box game last something like a few weeks. Most SP games last much shorter. In fact, I was playing D3 for more than 1 month now and logged 140 hrs on my main toon. That is way more than getting my money worth of a box game .. and i have not finished yet.

    There is no reason why a game needs to last years. In fact, i would much rather move onto new games. Having 100 hrs of fun at $60 (or whatever standard retail box price) is a pretty good deal. That is definitely 10x cheaper than the movies.

     

    The monthly, quarterly, and yearly subscriptions refute your point.  MMORPG's are meant to last for years, and to generate revenue beyond the initial box games.

    Now, if you are satisfied with the current crop of on-rails "splash and crash" WOW clones, hey, you have a 100 games to choose from.

    But you have no argument is saying players who want more should accept less.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    I agree. This idea of MMOs where all is crammed with stuff is really apalling. It doesn't invoke the feeling of a world, but a themepark in the worse sense of the word.

    It's what I loved about SWG and Fallen Earth. But god forbid people have to WALK or SEEK their quest mobs! :(

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • pompey606pompey606 milfordPosts: 435Member Uncommon

    Without reading all 5 pages I sure hope Anarchy Online is mentioned in this thread. 1, HUGE seamless map not counting the expansions.

    image

  • silvermembersilvermember saint paul, MNPosts: 531Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I wonder if devs are being sensitive to their shareholders, and we players are stuck holding the bag with games that have short term interest, but full term retail prices.

     

    Seems fair a full box game last something like a few weeks. Most SP games last much shorter. In fact, I was playing D3 for more than 1 month now and logged 140 hrs on my main toon. That is way more than getting my money worth of a box game .. and i have not finished yet.

    There is no reason why a game needs to last years. In fact, i would much rather move onto new games. Having 100 hrs of fun at $60 (or whatever standard retail box price) is a pretty good deal. That is definitely 10x cheaper than the movies.

     

    The monthly, quarterly, and yearly subscriptions refute your point.  MMORPG's are meant to last for years, and to generate revenue beyond the initial box games.

    Now, if you are satisfied with the current crop of on-rails "splash and crash" WOW clones, hey, you have a 100 games to choose from.

    But you have no argument is saying players who want more should accept less.

    all it says is that there are people out there willing to give companies money for the same repetitive crap they have been playing for 2 months straight. It doesn't make it right hence y a lot of sub games are going to the f2p route because they cannot sustain p2p.

    MMO are meant to be played for fun not forever. There's a reason why companies have a shrink on payroll, so they can find ways to manipulate players to play the same content by offering "rewards". Hence why raids and gear grind exist.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by rounner

    Look at Vanguard: When the population is small people are too spread out, unless you add instatravel...

    I would love all games to be like that. Where you can literally get lost in the world while exploring and not see a soul. Then see more people as you got to points of interest.

     

    *all the games*?

    Thanks but no thanks. I don't play games to be lost in the world. Thank god not all the games are like that.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,464Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by rounner

    Look at Vanguard: When the population is small people are too spread out, unless you add instatravel...

    I would love all games to be like that. Where you can literally get lost in the world while exploring and not see a soul. Then see more people as you got to points of interest.

     

    *all the games*?

    Thanks but no thanks. I don't play games to be lost in the world. Thank god not all the games are like that.

    well, better said "all the games I play". image

     

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