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Is it me or GW2 PAY 2 WIN game?

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  • KyelthisKyelthis Phoenix, AZPosts: 284Member
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

    Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

     

    Your example is correct, but that doesn't describe "P2W", that just describes a means of gaining an advantage by leveling slightly faster. P2W by definition is the use of a cash shop to actually "win" at a game, most of the time it's almost needed to compete, this game doesn't fit that at all.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.  ... and so do subscription games.  See my previous example.  In fact, my 'person a and person b but person a has more money' example is almost identical to yours. :)

    Face it, that's how MMOs work.  They're long term progression games, they want long term money, you buy power with it.  It's just how the genre is.

    At least iN GW2, structured PvP is completely disconnected from how much money you spend on the game (Though how much money you spend on your internet connection and computer is still a factor, sadly).

     

     edit:  On a side note, I assume this means you define winning as being somewhat faster in a long term game that actually has a relatively low power cap?  Does that mean once the power cap is reached, it's no longer p2w? 

    it's not as clear cut as you make it sound.  Time advantage <> winning in everybody's eyes.

    I think pretty much everybody is willing to say that GW2 sells convenience (ie reduced time playing), but a lot of people would argue if that actually makes you WIN.

    If you're 20% faster, and it takes you 80 hours rather than 100 hours to hit cap, is that really that much of an advantage?

    It's certainly not nearly as much of an advantage as being unemployed. 

    I guess you could argue that the idle rich have the biggest advantage, but the unemployed have a bigger advantage than those who are well to do the old fashioned way (ie:  Working hard to get the money, and therefore have less spare time to play).

    Perhaps to enforce fairness, we should revive the old FFXIV 'only level so much a day' idea.  An idea whose time has come! :)

  • JonokuJonoku Cool, PAPosts: 645Member
    Originally posted by seraphol

    But if you love the game, then you're going to feel like it's worth it to toss them a few bones from time to time to make your character prettier or travel in style, since the only other cash they got from you is when they sold you the game.

    Ya I like that, it's like donating to support the game and keep it running with updates etc. I'll gladly donate some from time to time once in a while.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Hurvart

    If you are higher level it means you are more powerful. It means you are buying power if you buy xp-potions. Of course the other players will catch up at max level. But it is still very true. If there was no reason to buy xp-potions they would not sell xp-potions. It would not be profitable....

    Perhaps it affects my friends if they are trying to level as fast as me. They cant keep up if I use xp-potions.

    "Win" is subjective and depends on POV and context. Perhaps it will be P2W for me and my friends. But anyone should be able to agree it is an advantage. Even if it is only temporary.

     This is why all subscription games are P2W.  :(

    Given two people who are completely equal in all ways... they level at the same speed, they have enough free time they can play exactly 20 hours each week, they have the same amount of skill...

    ... the person who only pays their subscription fee half the months will be twice as slow as the person who pays their subscription fee every month.

    That's a pretty clear cut case of pay to win, and it's =200%= faster for just 7.50 a month.  :( 


    They are Play to Win. Not Pay to Win. If you play more you will be more powerful. I think that is the way a good and fair game should be. To play you must of course also pay the monthly fee. But that is not relevant. You are paying for a service. They must maintain servers and so on.... To play one month everyone will have to pay the same price. Paying more will not help you and will not be possible. That is a level playing field and a fair game.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

    Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

     

    If there is power that can be bought it is something another player can NEVER pull even with. I can understand this definition of P2W because the player who paid always has a permant advantage. There are MMOs that offer this and I don't play them. 

    However, it does seem to me to be a different animal if the advantage is temporary. If all advantages can be obtained by any player who invests time, why is that P2W? Should it be P2W temporarly? P2WT. What is the profound impact to the game that makes the idea of someone disagreeing with you "ludicrous and incrediblly naive"?  

    This advantage has been happening since the first gold farming operations started. So, if you have played an MMO you have experienced it. So, really all MMOs that had any gold farming operation assocated with them were and are P2W by your definition. 

  • KyelthisKyelthis Phoenix, AZPosts: 284Member

    Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

     

    "Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

    People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

    PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

    PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

    So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

  • ZoyitaZoyita Elmhurst, NYPosts: 119Member

    Trust me when they sell some nice fashion im gonna buy it why not to colaborate to the game to become better and better. Someone called me a hater just because i dont agree with his red letters... I like this game i just wish theres no boost of any type in the cash shop thats all, like a cash shop cosmetic only, cosmetic means fashion or styles.

     

    And BTW every person have a different vision of what is win the game, like the developer said you can play this game in many different ways.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Zoyita

    Trust me when they sell some nice fashion im gonna buy it why not to colaborate to the game to become better and better. Someone called me a hater just because i dont agree with his red letters... I like this game i just wish theres no boost of any type in the cash shop thats all, like a cash shop cosmetic only, comsetic means fashion or styles.

    Just remember you can get those boosts in game too (not from the CS). So, big deal.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member

    I'm more sad to see that MMOs are still level restricting their itemization more so than there being a way for people to buy something from a cash shop.

    Eh, progress.

    a yo ho ho

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

    Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

     

    If there is power that can be bought it is something another player can NEVER pull even with. I can understand this definition of P2W because the player who paid always has a permant advantage. There are MMOs that offer this and I don't play them. 

    However, it does seem to me to be a different animal if the advantage is temporary. If all advantages can be obtained by any player who invests time, why is that P2W? Should it be P2W temporarly? P2WT. What is the profound impact to the game that makes the idea of someone disagreeing with you "ludicrous and incrediblly naive"?  

    This advantage has been happening since the first gold farming operations started. So, if you have played an MMO you have experienced it. So, really all MMOs that had any gold farming operation assocated with them were and are P2W by your definition. 


    Gold farmers and people that buy from them are not legit. They are cheating and can and should be banned from the game.

    It is a big difference if the company is selling advantages itself. Advantages that would be considered cheating in fair games.

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by Hurvart


    They are Play to Win. Not Pay to Win. If you play more you will be more powerful. I think that is the way a good and fair game should be. To play you must of course also pay the monthly fee. But that is not relevant. You are paying for a service. They must maintain servers and so on.... To play one month everyone will have to pay the same price. Paying more will not help you and will not be possible. That is a level playing field and a fair game.

     It's a 15 dollar fee to buy time, which equals power.

    The MMO companies know that, why don't you?

    You think they DON'T realize that giving them more money gives you more time to play gives you more power?

    You don't have to pay a monthly fee in GW2.  Buying leveling boosts at best gets you about a 20% speed advantage.

    Therefore, and watch the math closely here....

    Paying 0 in GW2 = leveling normal speed.  Paying lots of money in GW2 = 20% faster leveling speed.

    Paying 0 in sub MMO = 0 leveling speed.  Paying 15 dollars a month in sub MMO = normal leveling speed.

    So paying money in GW2 can get you an advantage, but it's considerably less than the advantage you can get by paying money in a sub MMO. :T  ... and it's completely not mandatory, unlike a sub MMO where you HAVE to pay 15 dollars.  Talk about an advantage!  Look how crippled you are as an MMO player when your MMO is really just a fancy coaster and a few gigs of useless files on your HD. :)

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Originally posted by Kyelthis

    Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

     

    "Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

    People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

    PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

    PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

    So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

    QFT

    I've played a lot of games where people buy gold or items for an advantage, but that's stuff that's attainable to every player.

    I remember a game I played some time ago... I don't recall what it was, some Korean grinder that I found really enjoyable to pvp in. One of their cash shop items was a health "keg" that had 1000 uses and it filled you up to 100% health each click. You could assign it to a key and just spam it in pvp battles and pretty much be unstoppable for several minutes.

    It sucked to go against, wasn't fun to actually do (I did it), and made for some interesting tactical conversation in pvp battles. Typically each side only had a few people who actually made the purchase and most were F2P players with common drop heals.

    Needless to say; that was P2W. You could spend money and temporarily be the baddest dude on the battlefield. Regardless of level, skill, gear, whatever you'd want to place the measurement on.

    Using gems to gain cash and spending real cash to do so is not "WIN". 

    a yo ho ho

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Kyelthis

    Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

     

    "Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

    People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

    PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

    PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

    So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

  • AtriokkeAtriokke Puerto RicoPosts: 13Member

     " Does that mean once the power cap is reached, it's no longer p2w? "

    Yes, thus my mention of varying degrees of P2W.  

    "On a side note, I assume this means you define winning as being somewhat faster in a long term game that actually has a relatively low power cap? "

    Yes.  You make faster sound as trivial. This is not always or rarely the case.  

    Months of A = Months of B.  But with cash Months of A =/ Months of B.  Thus they are unbalanced in terms of an equal playing field and this is what P2W creates.  End game content is achievable by a small fraction of a game's playerbase(depending on the game of course but in MMOs specifically, imo, that is what it strives to do to keep ppl playing).  Saying that B does NOT have an advantage over A for 5 months because A can get to B in 5 months is silly IMO. Additionally, MMOs evolve through updates(and so does the achievable power) then A will always be playing catch up to B. A will be recurringly at a disadvantage to B.  Does this mean that B does not an advantage over A?  To me the answer is clear, B DOES have an advantage over A in more than one occassion. However i can see because its really transparent that many(or most) do not share my contention.  That is great and all, as you are making a larger market(then what I could achieve through my principle) to feed others so im all for it! =D

     

    May the richest person win!!

  • ThrashbargThrashbarg lions arch, ORPosts: 125Member

    Why is this thread even still going? lol

    Who cares if someone levels a bit faster in a game with no huge advantage to being max level? People can go ahead and spend a bunch of money to rush through and miss a lot of the content for all I care. Doesn't make sense to me to buy a game then pay more to skip a bunch of it, but hey, I'm weird. I might take a few days longer to hit cap, and have to actually mine nodes and loot mobs to make my mastercraft gears, but I'll see more of the game and have more RL money too.

    (Should make a thread and call it: "Is it just me or are half the threads on here from competing game companies trying to make up nonsense?")

    image

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

    I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

    /end sarcasm

     

    Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

     

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Thrashbarg

    (...) People can go ahead and spend a bunch of money to rush through and miss a lot of the content for all I care. Doesn't make sense to me to buy a game then pay more to skip a bunch of it, but hey, I'm weird.

    (...)

     

    Because certain content is more desirable than other. They spend a bunch of money to quicker access content that they want. They use money to spend less time in certain content and more time in other content. I can imagine that dedicated and competitive who play GW2 almost entirely for the World vs World, will have reason to try to speed-level themselves to 80 and maximize their character as fast as possible.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

    I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

     

    Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

    Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

  • ThanosxpThanosxp floripaPosts: 168Member Uncommon

    It seens that "P2W" is the concept poisoning the discussion. Just for the sake of argument: If ALL this discussion was about "Pay to in game advantages", the fuss would be the same?

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by Sebber

    Yes you pay Arenanet 60 dollars and then you win, to have fun.....

    NO it is not P2W, you don't win anything.

     Best thread answer ever.

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • aslan132aslan132 Tampa, FLPosts: 378Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

    Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

     

    First, i was gonna re-emphasize my definition of P2W, but someone actually quoted me already in this thread (page 21,  just before this if youre interested), so im not gonna repost it. What i would like to add is just how flawed your definition is. 

     

    With your example for starters: You forget about the other side of it. If both A and B play the same amount of hours, but one uses money for an advatnage and the other doesnt, sure that one has a slight advatange. But conversly, if both A and B spend exactly the same amount of money (which could also be none), but one plays alot more than the other, now the money gives no advantage, and is completely removed from the equation, as you so blatantly tried to remove time from your example. By your very seriously flawed definition that you tried to secretly slide by the naive, if a player can play more hours than another player, thus earning an advantage over that person, now the game is Pay2Win?

     

    The idea that a game can be P2W disregarding the money (or the pay) part of it, is out right laughable. So every game, ever created or will be created is now P2W? Hmm, 2 words come to mind...ludicrous and naive :P

     

    Im unemployed and I plan to play more than 40 hours a week. I know others that cant make that commitment, but they could use boosts from the shop to try to keep up, or at least close the gap. Does that mean they are paying to win, even though i clearly have the advantage. Thats the point you seem to not understand. If they are paying, but not gaining an advantage, it is no longer P2W. But of course, you try to pretend that cant possibly happen. If someone buys something from the cash shop, they have to have the advantage right? Even if they are level 20, and im level 80. What if they buy 10 gold with real money... but i have 300 gold i made from playing and leveling the game, and working the auction house. Clearly the level 20 with 10 gold bought with real money has the advantage over a level 80 with 300 gold, right?

     

    Pay2win means you have to gain an absolute advantage over someone not paying. Not a convenience boost, or time saver. It MUST be something that cant be obtained with money. Theres no grey area here, no varying levels of P2W, or room for discussion. Yes some games will offer larger advantages than others, so yes P2W has varying degrees, but they all require one thing in common: the advantage has to be something that cant be otherwise obtained. 

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Hurvart


    They are Play to Win. Not Pay to Win. If you play more you will be more powerful. I think that is the way a good and fair game should be. To play you must of course also pay the monthly fee. But that is not relevant. You are paying for a service. They must maintain servers and so on.... To play one month everyone will have to pay the same price. Paying more will not help you and will not be possible. That is a level playing field and a fair game.

     It's a 15 dollar fee to buy time, which equals power.

    The MMO companies know that, why don't you?

    You think they DON'T realize that giving them more money gives you more time to play gives you more power?

    You don't have to pay a monthly fee in GW2.  Buying leveling boosts at best gets you about a 20% speed advantage.

    Therefore, and watch the math closely here....

    Paying 0 in GW2 = leveling normal speed.  Paying lots of money in GW2 = 20% faster leveling speed.

    Paying 0 in sub MMO = 0 leveling speed.  Paying 15 dollars a month in sub MMO = normal leveling speed.

    So paying money in GW2 can get you an advantage, but it's considerably less than the advantage you can get by paying money in a sub MMO. :T  ... and it's completely not mandatory, unlike a sub MMO where you HAVE to pay 15 dollars.  Talk about an advantage!  Look how crippled you are as an MMO player when your MMO is really just a fancy coaster and a few gigs of useless files on your HD. :)


    To play everyone must pay $15/month. That makes it a level playing field. Its not possible to pay more. If you are not paying you are not playing. Not at all...

    Of course, people not playing at all will not progress. They will not get better or more powerful. And a P2P game is not free...But it is the same for everyone. I think its a fallacy to mention people not playing the game at all. That is not relevant.

    It is fair for people that actually play the game. And to do that you must pay $15/month. No more..no less. People actually playing the game will enjoy a fair game and a level playing field. If you dont want to pay you cant play.

    I think that is the best business model.

    I dont think GW2 will be bad compared to most F2P games with offensive advantage cash shops. But personally I prefer If there are no advantages at all that you can buy in a CS. I like that because I dont want to think about real money when I play.

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

    I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

     

    Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

    Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

    So is having more money quickly to buy +2 to Epeen boots is more win than spending two or three game sessions to make the same amount of virtual currency "WIN"?

    Or is it just someone spending their expendable cash how they want?

    a yo ho ho

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

    I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

     

    Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

    Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

    lol, thanks. Who would have guessed.

    Now lets try the same question, but this time actually give me an answer, not just another generalization. 

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • n00854180tn00854180t Dallas, TXPosts: 16Member

    It's just you, because you don't know what you're talking about. There's no way to pay for anything in GW2 that will make you win against another player. It doesn't exist. There's stuff that will help you level up somewhat faster, or find better loot, but none of that will make it easier for you to defeat another player in PvP. 

    People need to stop just throwing "pay to win" on everything when it doesn't even make sense. Diablo 3 is pay to win: you can go on the real money auction house and buy the best items (which will make you vastly stronger than people without them, unlike GW2 where gear doesn't matter in sPvP and barely matters in WvW) in the game without expending any effort. That's not possible in GW2. Player skill is king.

This discussion has been closed.