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Endgame and longevity

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  • StriderXedStriderXed AURORA, ILPosts: 257Member

    I like endgame and gear treadmills just as much as everyone else, but to be honest, that was not the reason I stayed in a paticular mmo. The reason I stayed was because of the community and the friends I made while playing that game.

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  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Common
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

    every MMO has an endgame. however, there are games with a short levelling phase, or to be more precise, with a very flat vertical progression. these games usually also enable you to use all features at Lvl 1 theoretically. people call that "endgame starts at Lvl1". a MMORPG without endgame does not exist. because such games are called single-player-RPGs and are no MMOs.

    GW2 is such a game with flat vertical progression. a pretty sanboxish approach and very unusual for a theme-park. we will see, how this works in a theme-park regarding longevity.

    i am not sad, that they have no raids. on the other hand, it would be easy to implement multigroup dungeons in GW2. the difference would be, that according to ArenaNets philosophy you would just get cosmetic upgrades like in group-dungeons. i doubt, that a lot of hardcore raiders will get used to cosmetic progression at all. so GW2 could have raids, but introducing a stat-based item treadmill would be against their philosophy.

    regarding open World PVP, i dont see that this is possible. You would need huge continents for GvG and you would need a reason to conquer land. usually this is human greed about ressources. but, in order to make this work, you need a player-driven economy. and this would impact the entire game design heavily. so no, dont expect open, persistent, terrirtorial PvP in GW2.

    I disagree, EVE comes as close to is as probably is possible, or you could argue that endgame really does start as soon as you leave the tutorial.

    It seems to me that GW2 might not be the game for people who put a lot of value on continuous progression of their avatar, (ad infinitum) and is more designed to favor the explorer mind set.

     

    That is simply not true, people like to give out this illusion that end game is what you want but its not true, there is an end game in EVE, its easy to to find an end game for MMORPGs just tend to infinity every task you are thinking about and see what gives you the most in game returns and that will be your "end game", end game not meaning the game ends but the goal you should strive to get if you are to achieve the most the game has to offer, in the case of EVE political and resource control is the end game, is the umbrella that allows you to achieve MORE of the game feature set.

    By such a broad definition as there is no end game in EVE and "you are at end game when you finish the tutorial" you could argue that WoW has no end game, because you can just walk around collecting plants at level one, then you can go and kill 10 million boars at level two to achieve the goal of getting the most money in game, then you can just decide to duel outside Stormwind at level 3 until you are the level 3 duel master, and you still  have 82 levels to go and already have options to keep you entertained for years.

    Actually I am gonna go ahead and say that End Game is a subjective term and that you cant really measure end game beyond a personal level, the only basic way of measuring it is by "personal experience vs the amount of tasks the game allows you to do vs the tasks you are willing to do". So it depends on anyones definition of end game, and what it means.

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  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

    There is no end-game, it starts at level one. So be prepared to grind events forever or until you get sick of doing them.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa cartaxoPosts: 620Member
    Originally posted by Mephster

    There is no end-game, it starts at level one. So be prepared to grind events forever or until you get sick of doing them.

    loool. why you keep post false information? i wonder how someone say GW2 is grind can actually like to play skyrim.... just wonder. 

     

  • JohnnymmoJohnnymmo Salt lake, UTPosts: 99Member
    But isnt he right. Endgame is dynamic events. Do em one time and the NeXT time they ll be the same.
  • seridanseridan ThessalonikiPosts: 1,202Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Johnnymmo
    But isnt he right. Endgame is dynamic events. Do em one time and the NeXT time they ll be the same.

    Nope.

    Sometimes they are sometimes they aren't, lots of events change according to player action, usually if the players managed to win or lose.

    Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    As much as I would like the game to provide almost infinite entertainment I feel that the longevity of MMOs really depends on the people. I played WoW for ages even after I realized I hated it because my friends were playing it.

    If you get/make a good bunch of friends you could be playing this for years.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member

    I will be exploring and trying to find everything that there is to find.  End game for me will be WvWvW.

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member
    Originally posted by Johnnymmo
    But isnt he right. Endgame is dynamic events. Do em one time and the NeXT time they ll be the same.

    Exacty what it is. ArenaNet's game design will fail long term. For the short term it will work so people can work out the new game feeling they have. I think the only exciting thing will be the personal story but once you finish that you'll have to wait until the expansion comes out so you can continue it. Not to mention I bet their expansions will be more dymanic events ontop of what players have already done. 

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member

    I don't get why having shinny uber gear in a 10 man raid makes more endgame than others.

    OP, GW2 doesn't have endgame in the sense of grinding for gear, but it does have it. Like all themeparks, there'll be a point you reach when you're done with most of the content. SWTOR actually had tons fo different stories with lots of branching paths. The problem was that it was too much of a wow clone thatw asted millions on VA. GW2 is indeed a different game, however, i still faces the same problem as other mmorgp of getting repetative a few months later. The great part is that the journey in this game is fun and good (if you like the game yourself, i do) which is why too me, i'll probably buy GW2 evetually, have fun and drop it. For the experience alone , i'd say it's more than worth it.

    But so i recomend pve for long term? Nope. Still a dev driven game

    Regarding pvp, well, if you like arena, sports feeling type mmos, you'll love GW2. Anet knows their stuff here. If you like open world, territory control, meaningfull impacts, etc, i don't know. To me, it isn't. It's the best TP PVP, but not something i see myself playign long term, but you might.

    To know better, i suggest you get into the BWE3 and try it out for yourself and remember to read up on info in the wikes.

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

    I can never understand the obsession with the "endgame" having to be raiding or ranked PVP. Why does it have to be limited to those two things? Why does endgame have to be a constant and endless grindy loot treadmill?

    Even more so, where did this mentality that "the game doesn't begin until the endgame, where the raids and high end PVP are"? Who came up with something that dumb?

  • SpendrikSpendrik SingaporePosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by Enigmatus

    I can never understand the obsession with the "endgame" having to be raiding or ranked PVP. Why does it have to be limited to those two things? Why does endgame have to be a constant and endless grindy loot treadmill?

    Even more so, where did this mentality that "the game doesn't begin until the endgame, where the raids and high end PVP are"? Who came up with something that dumb?

    Because of the genre precedents set by major P2P titles in the past.

    It took a while to convince people that Earth wasn't flat.

    It will take a while to get people out of the MMO = treadmill rut.

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member

    The fact that you don't need to gear grind is going to make the game a lot more alt friendly than most games.   I know making alts isn't endgame but it could head in that direction for some people here.

    For me anyway, the main thing keeping me from making alts (and probably many of you) is the thought "Well I don't want to have to do all that work to get back to where I was on a new character".

    That has been removed due to the nature of how levels and gear work in the game, particularly if you want to just goof around in WvW pvp

  • HellSingsHellSings Toronto, ONPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    I don't get why having shinny uber gear in a 10 man raid makes more endgame than others.

    OP, GW2 doesn't have endgame in the sense of grinding for gear, but it does have it. Like all themeparks, there'll be a point you reach when you're done with most of the content. SWTOR actually had tons fo different stories with lots of branching paths. The problem was that it was too much of a wow clone thatw asted millions on VA. GW2 is indeed a different game, however, i still faces the same problem as other mmorgp of getting repetative a few months later. The great part is that the journey in this game is fun and good (if you like the game yourself, i do) which is why too me, i'll probably buy GW2 evetually, have fun and drop it. For the experience alone , i'd say it's more than worth it.

    But so i recomend pve for long term? Nope. Still a dev driven game

    Regarding pvp, well, if you like arena, sports feeling type mmos, you'll love GW2. Anet knows their stuff here. If you like open world, territory control, meaningfull impacts, etc, i don't know. To me, it isn't. It's the best TP PVP, but not something i see myself playign long term, but you might.

    To know better, i suggest you get into the BWE3 and try it out for yourself and remember to read up on info in the wikes.

    Actually there is. Token gear from dungeons and Glory gear from vendors.

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member
    Originally posted by raven29
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    I don't get why having shinny uber gear in a 10 man raid makes more endgame than others.

    OP, GW2 doesn't have endgame in the sense of grinding for gear, but it does have it. Like all themeparks, there'll be a point you reach when you're done with most of the content. SWTOR actually had tons fo different stories with lots of branching paths. The problem was that it was too much of a wow clone thatw asted millions on VA. GW2 is indeed a different game, however, i still faces the same problem as other mmorgp of getting repetative a few months later. The great part is that the journey in this game is fun and good (if you like the game yourself, i do) which is why too me, i'll probably buy GW2 evetually, have fun and drop it. For the experience alone , i'd say it's more than worth it.

    But so i recomend pve for long term? Nope. Still a dev driven game

    Regarding pvp, well, if you like arena, sports feeling type mmos, you'll love GW2. Anet knows their stuff here. If you like open world, territory control, meaningfull impacts, etc, i don't know. To me, it isn't. It's the best TP PVP, but not something i see myself playign long term, but you might.

    To know better, i suggest you get into the BWE3 and try it out for yourself and remember to read up on info in the wikes.

    Actually there is. Token gear from dungeons and Glory gear from vendors.

    OMG GW2 as a gear treadmill. Obviou wow clone. image

  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Common
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ
    Originally posted by raven29
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    I don't get why having shinny uber gear in a 10 man raid makes more endgame than others.

    OP, GW2 doesn't have endgame in the sense of grinding for gear, but it does have it. Like all themeparks, there'll be a point you reach when you're done with most of the content. SWTOR actually had tons fo different stories with lots of branching paths. The problem was that it was too much of a wow clone thatw asted millions on VA. GW2 is indeed a different game, however, i still faces the same problem as other mmorgp of getting repetative a few months later. The great part is that the journey in this game is fun and good (if you like the game yourself, i do) which is why too me, i'll probably buy GW2 evetually, have fun and drop it. For the experience alone , i'd say it's more than worth it.

    But so i recomend pve for long term? Nope. Still a dev driven game

    Regarding pvp, well, if you like arena, sports feeling type mmos, you'll love GW2. Anet knows their stuff here. If you like open world, territory control, meaningfull impacts, etc, i don't know. To me, it isn't. It's the best TP PVP, but not something i see myself playign long term, but you might.

    To know better, i suggest you get into the BWE3 and try it out for yourself and remember to read up on info in the wikes.

    Actually there is. Token gear from dungeons and Glory gear from vendors.

    OMG GW2 as a gear treadmill. Obviou wow clone. image

    Shit for a second there I was thinking when the hell had I posted that. LOL.

     

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  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 grenoblePosts: 107Member Uncommon

    It seems I have upset a lot of trollish fanbois with this thread. It's amusing cos I never said the game is going to be bad, nor that people who enjoy it are silly, or anything like that.

    Thanks to those who posted informative answers, they know who they are.

    To the others, I suggest you try stopping identifying with what you buy.

    Take care.

  • meesimmameesimma DurhamPosts: 4Member

    I'm very confused by some of the posts in this thread? did you guys actually play the game? or are just judging on hype (or poorly worded reviews of someones personal experiance)

     

    open world pvp = WvWvW      -  Yes it resets every 2 weeks, it resets because Server A might CRUSH B and C, so it resets and you get matched against 2 servers more equal to yours, giving everyone a more competitive pvp experiance.  it will take months to sort out where servers really match up to each other though, so that will be an initial issue, but there have been blogs about the pvp rating systems gw2 is using.

     

    PVE endgame = dungeons and the elite world events     -   these words mean nothing to you unless you watch the videos or play them yourself.  i played them, the elite events scale in difficulty as more people show up, and if not enough people show up and you fk up and lose things change (3 idiots i was with walked off from an event and i died, came back to find the npc's in control of the camp now, a bigger bossman for them there, 3x the numbers defending it and they'd made some gates we had to destroy to get inside now while archers on the walls tried to pick us off =/ the npc's will strategise against you)

     

    as for the dungeons, explorable mode dungeons are really really REALLY fkin hard, your probably assuming "oh he's wrong he just sucks", i don't, and my team didn't, and they are a challenge that you will die in quite a lot, in the betas thousands got very upset with the difficulty of these dungeons and just quit trying after 20-30 deaths... these were the lower dungeons too as most of the game content wasn't even available to us. also for those who've read fk all, dungeons have several paths of differing complexity and difficulty, so to do an explorable grade dungeon properly you have to do it a few times to see it all.

     

    gw2 isn't like bog standard mmo's, you cannot make a super tank (you can tank slightly to an extent, but you will still be super squishy like everyone else), a super healer (can't even make a healer), and grab a dps and fly through everything with ease, and if your cocky and think you can, you will quickly change your mind as the mechanics are just different

     

    pve is challenging, but once you get used to it, it becomes simpler. there will be very little pulling 10 mobs and aoe'ing (if any at all), or 1shotting mobs, in fact from level 1 in pve, you might find yourself dieing.   pve dynamic events, even the small ones! require teamwork. i love pve, and gw2 is a pve DREAM, the only problem can be when a few noobs come to your area and make the dynamic event your at scale up in difficulty, then they do fk all or walk away and you get owned.

     

    as for the gear treadmill somebody said gw2 doesn't have, you definitly did not look through the glory/rank npc's at the spvp map. there's like 9 tiers =S (oh and to pre-empt the complaint about only 9, the cost of getting there is stupidly high, and unlike level up exp, rank up exp does not plateau, it rises) and thats level 80 stuff, then on WvW maps at base portal area's there are similar npc's with tiered pvp armor for lvl 60-80, some stuff available through the glory currency, some stuff you have to achieve kills for (and in zerg pvp getting the official banner kill can be a challenge all itself as 5 people will all jump for it instantly), but those items take hundreds of kills each to aquire (this sounds small, but as stated with the banner kills being hard to get, this will take a day per item if not longer, plus you need enemies to show up! my server had it too easy so i never even got 1 in 3 tests =/)

     

    you people need to look around in the game before complaining about flaws that might or might not exist... i played it and none of you have mentioned a single issue i felt gw2 had, just re-hashed the same rubbish everyone else is saying, and saying incorrectly.

     

    oh and for a pve junkie, i got a bit too hooked at sitting atop keeps with siege weapons and launching at the oncoming rush :D defending is actually more fun than attacking! and a group of smarter players with strategy can destroy the zerg for a very rewarding feeling :D  aaaaand my personal 1 thing i feel everyone should do, defend an easy to take tower, get 10-20 people inside with built up arrow carts, and drop hundreds of rushers when they knock down the gate, it's so funny :D

     

    **edit** forgot some  things, like the endgame begining almost instantly so you can play some endgame, then level or pve or story chase, then endgame, or just level up/gear up 100% off endgame stuff.

    oh and i'm not coming from a fanboy perspective, i played the beta's to see how many hours of gameplay i thought i could get for the box price (because i'm comparing this not only to mmo's i've played but console games too, gotta be cash concious!) and i see 400-500 minimum for me (after some 70+ hours of beta testing), thats several characters, their grinds and gears plus pvp distractions, then from there is my bonus $ for time =)   (why several characters? because you need the right team to do certain tasks, only so many people in my team so we are all going to specialise in a few classes each to make sure we can always have a successful party). and leveling alts will be super easy, just grinding crafting levels using stuff gathered with your main... if you max every crafting skill on a char, it will level you from 1 - 80 without even needing to kill 1 mob on an alt  /win

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    GW2 and "endgame".

    First thing to understand is that the game has a scaling system which will scale down your level, so that you can enjoy lower level content. You get XP and loot based on your true level, with a slight downward adjustment depending on how great the level gap is. So, once you reach the level cap, a large portion of the entire game is still viable and rewarding. This is really great, because there is a large redundancy of content in the game and the nature of Dynamic Events, which provide most of the game's content, is such that you will miss some content as you level up through the game. (Arenanet are also commited to added free Dynamic Event content to all zones, on an ongoing basis, after launch).

    This doesn't mean that there isn't content specifically tailored for characters at the level cap. There is an entire game zone that is specifically designed for level 80 characters. Also, three of the eight 5-man Dungeons are level 80. (all Dungeons have at least four "wings", one Story Mode, which is challenging, but "PUG-able" and at least three Exploration Mode branches, which are supposed to be extremely challenging. (Of course, with level scaling, most, if not all of the dungeons should be viable at level 80, if you missed any, liked any enough to revisit them or want to join in to help lower level guild mates).

    I think World vs. World and Structured PvP will also provide untold hours of enjoyment for many players, but for the PvE only crowd, GW2 seems to offer more content, at launch, than pretty much any MMO since WoW, while level scaling and Dynamic Events greatly expand the amount of content viable for a level capped character.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by kikoodutroa8

    I'd like to know if the game has interesting pve on the long term.

    I haven't been on beta and can't be annoyed to read all the promotionnal stuff about the game, so forgive me for asking:

    Is there a lot of 5, 10, 20man content? Is it challenging, does it require teamwork or is it mostly a zergfest?

    Did anyone actually test the endgame during the beta?

    I usually pvp a lot in traditionnal mmos so I assume I would enjoy GW2, but I know a lot of people who almost never pvp and they speak of GW2 like it's the 2nd coming. Unless the magic of hype turn them all into hardcore pvpers, are they gonna enjoy the game more than a few weeks?

     

    i have seen this argument again and again

     

    well if you love PvP with your guild, you will love WvW, and guess what every 2 week you will have different enemies to conquer !

     

    in betas i dont believe anyone gone over 40 lvl ... but for sure the whole content is designed in order to be able to visit again, so even  the starting zone you can consider it as end game ...

    also the WvW is also end game content, and the sPvP is from its first second end game content ...

    image

  • JohnnymmoJohnnymmo Salt lake, UTPosts: 99Member
    Starting with alts is not an end game. Thats a poor excuse for we have no more content but go ahead roll an alt and do the same dungeons and dynamic events again to 80. I dont see pve longetivity here. This is about crushing your foes in pvp :) i look forward to that. Just wished wvwvw would show player names so i could become feared
  • flupflup copenhagenPosts: 8Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Poison_Adele

    How does every single GW2 longevity thread always, always miss the big, glaring beacon of lighT? 

    Namely, ArenaNet's promise of live, quiet content patches? I quote:

    “We have a live team of designers and artists and gameplay programmers who are going to be flying over the game constantly, dropping content everywhere” Johanson says. “Our goal is that every time you make a new character, you might go back through a map that you played six months ago and you’re going to find completely different content.” New content, he says, will be spread across the whole game rather than concentrated in specific areas. As this happens, the events already in place will be altered to accommodate it.


    “You run around Queensdale, the human starter area, and maybe the Brood Mother shows up every X minutes,” Johanson continues. “We’re going to put another event that can happen there, and then slow down how often the Brood Mother happens. Not only are there new events happening, but everything you’ve seen before starts happening less often. The world gets larger and larger. Three years from now, if someone makes a brand new character in the game, a place that has 100 events in it might have 300 by then.”

    This

  • seridanseridan ThessalonikiPosts: 1,202Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Johnnymmo
    Starting with alts is not an end game. Thats a poor excuse for we have no more content but go ahead roll an alt and do the same dungeons and dynamic events again to 80. I dont see pve longetivity here. This is about crushing your foes in pvp :) i look forward to that. Just wished wvwvw would show player names so i could become feared

    In other games maybe. In Guild Wars 2 you can have at least 3 alts which will experience completely different content, provided of course the 3 factions offer only one storyline. If they offer more complexity you can have 5 characters (one for each race) with different storyline. Rolling an alt in GW2 leads to different dynamic events and personal story. The dungeons will be the same but anything else can be different.

    Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,816Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Johnnymmo
    Starting with alts is not an end game. Thats a poor excuse for we have no more content but go ahead roll an alt and do the same dungeons and dynamic events again to 80. I dont see pve longetivity here. This is about crushing your foes in pvp :) i look forward to that. Just wished wvwvw would show player names so i could become feared

    End game content is also a poor excuse "yes, our levelling experience is crap - here do some instances. Ah, we lock them, we make the drops really low chance so you can't finish them too fast".

    Since GW2 PvE is about the levelling experience, and its levelling experience is richer and more challenging7interesting than traditional PvE experience, you are basically waiting for new Meta Events and new zones as opposed to new instances.

    So basically it is the same wait of games with end game content aka raids.

    So it is up to every player: "What do you prefer for PvE, a rich open world levelling experience or a rich organized raid experience?".

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa cartaxoPosts: 620Member
    Originally posted by flup
    Originally posted by Poison_Adele

    How does every single GW2 longevity thread always, always miss the big, glaring beacon of lighT? 

    Namely, ArenaNet's promise of live, quiet content patches? I quote:

    “We have a live team of designers and artists and gameplay programmers who are going to be flying over the game constantly, dropping content everywhere” Johanson says. “Our goal is that every time you make a new character, you might go back through a map that you played six months ago and you’re going to find completely different content.” New content, he says, will be spread across the whole game rather than concentrated in specific areas. As this happens, the events already in place will be altered to accommodate it.


    “You run around Queensdale, the human starter area, and maybe the Brood Mother shows up every X minutes,” Johanson continues. “We’re going to put another event that can happen there, and then slow down how often the Brood Mother happens. Not only are there new events happening, but everything you’ve seen before starts happening less often. The world gets larger and larger. Three years from now, if someone makes a brand new character in the game, a place that has 100 events in it might have 300 by then.”

    This

    THIS 

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