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ECON-101: Pay the tax only once, not for the rest of your life !

grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon

It’s time to wake up and realze whats going on.  You need to stop renting server time for a game that you already own.  Basically a game subscription is nothing more than a rent/tax.

What other commodity can you own where you have to continuously pay tax to actually use it?

Some of you may say property.   As you have to continuously pay tax to continue owning it.  Well you can control the tax rate through your vote or where you live.  But server “tax” is fixed and you have little choice other than to discontinue using the item you own (cancel subscription) or continue to pay the ”tax”.

Lets take a look at the “tax”.  If you buy a P2P game for $60, you then have to pay a “tax” to continue using it.  If your subscription is $15 a month you are paying $180 a year in “tax” or a rate of 300%/year.  That is absolutely ridiculous.   No wonder game CEO’s like Blizzards, Bobby Kotick, is taking in $14,950,182.00 a year (2009 data) and floating around in a $34.000.000.00 yacht.

When you buy a car or house, you most likely will not pay more than 10% annually in tax for the privilege of owning it.  And again you have a say on the rate you are willing to pay.

I for one have decided, I will no longer pay an ownership tax to play a game I already outright own.  I hope you see the wisdom in this argument and consider a “Buy to Play” [0% tax] game verses the “Pay to Play” [300% TAX] games.  It only makes sense to me.

It’s time for a new Boston tea party, and though out these greedy game companies.

And to think there are people who chose to play 2-3, P2P games at the same time.  [shakes head]

Let me know if you agree with me or just don’t mind this “TAX”

Grog

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Comments

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I dont' agree or disagree.  But you can't deny even with a 15$ subscription, alot of those game company are still lossing money. 

    And if there are actually more B2P mmorpg, you can tell us to go play that instead, but there really isn't any.

     

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon

    If you build it, they will come.  Wait and see.....

    Grog

  • MeliezaMelieza trabuco canyon, CAPosts: 269Member

    You're making an incorrect analogy.  A tax is money that goes to the government and is rarely used for anything that will affect you.  It's practically stealing.  When you pay an MMO subscription, you are paying for bug fixes, customer service, network management, content updates, etc.  All these things require people who need to be paid.

    The box price is for the current product, not any future changes or updates or services which will be made.

    A better anaology would be to compare a subscription price to a gym/club fee.  When you pay the gym's monthly or annual membership fee, you are paying for access to their facilities and the money goes to the employees there that are working to take care of and manage it.  When you stop paying the membership fee, you lose access to the gym.

    Try going to a gym and telling them you want to pay 60$ and have access to their facilities for the rest of your life.

  • WorstluckWorstluck the valley, CAPosts: 1,269Member

    Your definition of the word tax is incorrect:

     

    "A tax may be defined as a "pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property owners to support the government [...] a payment exacted by legislative authority."[1] A tax "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government [...] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name."

     

    A tax is something governments collect from their residents in order to pay for social services and god knows what else.  It has nothing to do with paying subscription fees for an online game. 

     

    Also, you don't own any games, unless of course you have created them yourself.  You have purchased a licence to use that piece of software.

    image

  • spikers14spikers14 las vegas, NVPosts: 362Member Uncommon

    Well, we've already covered subscription fees players agree to pay are not a tax.

    So I suppose this is about "sticking it to the man". I'm all bout it! Cept...can we choose another industry like big oil or something? I like my mmo's.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Are you proposing an alternative?

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    While i sort of agree you have to remember that while you may own the game, you don't own anything on the servers.  Those characters are not yours.  That has to change first before we can go anywhere.

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alders

    While i sort of agree you have to remember that while you may own the game, you don't own anything on the servers.  Those characters are not yours.  That has to change first before we can go anywhere.

    Good point.  They provide us the tools to create the characters.  But we used our artistic skills to actually make our characters and we should own the rights to them.

    Grog

  • megabanemegabane Fontana, CAPosts: 1Member

    I belive we should have subscription fees to support developers and server upkeep, but at what cost? $14.99 a month is a steep price for me and my demand for an mmorpg is not that high. Under $10 a month might get me going but thats still $120 a year. yeah So I'm in f2p moba mode now with games like league of legends and Hon

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Worstluck

    Your definition of the word tax is incorrect:

     "A tax may be defined as a "pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property owners to support the government [...] a payment exacted by legislative authority."[1] A tax "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government [...] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name."

     A tax is something governments collect from their residents in order to pay for social services and god knows what else.  It has nothing to do with paying subscription fees for an online game. 

     Also, you don't own any games, unless of course you have created them yourself.  You have purchased a licence to use that piece of software.

    Ahh, that is one definition of the word, but there are others...

    Tax
    noun
    1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
    2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.
     
    verb (used with object)
    3. (of a government)
         a. to demand a tax from (a person, business, etc.).
         b. to demand a tax in consideration of the possession or occurrence of (income, goods, sales, etc.), usually in proportion to the value of money involved.
    4. to lay a burden on; make serious demands on: to tax one's resources.
    5. to take to task; censure; reprove; accuse: to tax one with laziness.
    6. Informal . to charge: What did he tax you for that?
    7. Archaic . to estimate or determine the amount or value of.

    Grog

  • KaylettaJadeKaylettaJade Holloman AFB, NMPosts: 144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grogstorm
    Originally posted by Alders

    While i sort of agree you have to remember that while you may own the game, you don't own anything on the servers.  Those characters are not yours.  That has to change first before we can go anywhere.

    Good point.  They provide us the tools to create the characters.  But we used our artistic skills to actually make our characters and we should own the rights to them.

    Unless you do all the 3d modeling for your character, armor, accessories, etc your "artistic skills" amount to jack.  Using tools coded and modeled by other people doesn't entitle you to anything.

     

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade
    Originally posted by grogstorm
    Originally posted by Alders

    While i sort of agree you have to remember that while you may own the game, you don't own anything on the servers.  Those characters are not yours.  That has to change first before we can go anywhere.

    Good point.  They provide us the tools to create the characters.  But we used our artistic skills to actually make our characters and we should own the rights to them.

    Unless you do all the 3d modeling for your character, armor, accessories, etc your "artistic skills" amount to jack.  Using tools coded and modeled by other people doesn't entitle you to anything.

     

    Dont the developers use tools developed by others to make the game.  Or do they start by designing a graphics engin?

    Grog

  • syntax42syntax42 Columbus, OHPosts: 1,305Member Uncommon

    Also, you waive all of your artistic rights when you click the "I agree" button for the terms of service.

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    I paid zero dollars for my phone, so I'm effectively paying infinity%/nanosecond in phone "tax". What a useful and not at all alarmist way of looking at things!

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grogstorm

    It’s time to wake up and realze whats going on.  You need to stop renting server time for a game that you already own.  Basically a game subscription is nothing more than a rent/tax.

    What other commodity can you own where you have to continuously pay tax to actually use it?

    Some of you may say property.   As you have to continuously pay tax to continue owning it.  Well you can control the tax rate through your vote or where you live.  But server “tax” is fixed and you have little choice other than to discontinue using the item you own (cancel subscription) or continue to pay the ”tax”.

    Lets take a look at the “tax”.  If you buy a P2P game for $60, you then have to pay a “tax” to continue using it.  If your subscription is $15 a month you are paying $180 a year in “tax” or a rate of 300%/year.  That is absolutely ridiculous.   No wonder game CEO’s like Blizzards, Bobby Kotick, is taking in $14,950,182.00 a year (2009 data) and floating around in a $34.000.000.00 yacht.

    When you buy a car or house, you most likely will not pay more than 10% annually in tax for the privilege of owning it.  And again you have a say on the rate you are willing to pay.

    I for one have decided, I will no longer pay an ownership tax to play a game I already outright own.  I hope you see the wisdom in this argument and consider a “Buy to Play” [0% tax] game verses the “Pay to Play” [300% TAX] games.  It only makes sense to me.

    It’s time for a new Boston tea party, and though out these greedy game companies.

    And to think there are people who chose to play 2-3, P2P games at the same time.  [shakes head]

    Let me know if you agree with me or just don’t mind this “TAX”

     Well I did buy my car, but I can't actually use it until I put gas in it, or charge it.

    Well I did by my TV but I can't actually use it unless I either buy a blu-ray or pay for some kind of cable.

    Well I did by a gym membership but I can't actually use it unless I pay the monthly fee.

    Well I did buy the water hear and furnace for my house but I can't actually use it unless I pay the gas/electric bill.

    Well I did buy the lamp but I can't use it unless I pay the electric bill.

    Well I did buy a modem but can't use it unless I pay for internet access.

     

    Whether agree with it or not is irrelevant.  This is the cost that the particular game charges.  They may be smart they may be stupid for charging it but thats theire choice.  Your choice is if you are going to pay it or not.  Thats it.

    Some of you may say property. As you have to continuously pay tax to continue owning it. Well you can control the tax rate through your vote or where you live. But server “tax” is fixed and you have little choice other than to discontinue using the item you own (cancel subscription) or continue to pay the ”tax”.

    You have the choice of games you play, just like you have a choice of where you live.  Actually choosing the game is far easier than moving your entire life.  Don't want to pay a subscription fee, then don't play the game, however it is the game companies right to charge it.

    I personally don't care about  sub fees or f2p or p2w or any of that crap.  Just tell me about it and let me make my own decision.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • cagancagan new jersey, NJPosts: 281Member

    Yes the sub period is over...

    The 15 monthly they charge is stupid for most games now cause they charge a full new game price for expansions (40-50 for expansions) which is way too expansive when u also add the price of sub.

    I am also leaning to F2P or B2P model , I would buy extras whenever I need spending cash. but pay every month is not working anymore for me...

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    .....  Your choice is if you are going to pay it or not.  Thats it. .....

    Well said.  And I chose to no longer pay them "tribute"  as per  "Worstluck's" definition.  And I forsee many other to follow suit as they learn of this exorbitant tax.

     

    Grog

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by laokoko

    I dont' agree or disagree.  But you can't deny even with a 15$ subscription, alot of those game company are still lossing money.

    Yes, and no.

    Mortal Online and Darkfall are losing money, by all accounts. [Perhaps] SWToR, based on it's initial costs, but that's really a bunch of speculation at this point/

    EVE, AoC, TSW and the vast majority of subbed (to start) games make so much that it pays for all the other games they are making. Proving it's a tax that clears them enough profit to at least reinvest outside of the product you are actually paying for... that, or yachts. It's hard to tell.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • KaylettaJadeKaylettaJade Holloman AFB, NMPosts: 144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grogstorm
    Originally posted by KaylettaJade
    Originally posted by grogstorm
    Originally posted by Alders

    While i sort of agree you have to remember that while you may own the game, you don't own anything on the servers.  Those characters are not yours.  That has to change first before we can go anywhere.

    Good point.  They provide us the tools to create the characters.  But we used our artistic skills to actually make our characters and we should own the rights to them.

    Unless you do all the 3d modeling for your character, armor, accessories, etc your "artistic skills" amount to jack.  Using tools coded and modeled by other people doesn't entitle you to anything.

     

    Dont the developers use tools developed by others to make the game.  Or do they start by designing a graphics engin?

    Some of them do start at step 1 and make an engine.  That's sorta how we got graphical engines in the first place.

    When you buy a game, you aren't buying a character.  You are purchasing a license to use the software.  The character creation tools are a part of the software you purchased a license to use.  That doesn't transfer any kind of ownership to you and suggesting it should shows you have no idea what rights of ownership actually entail.

    If you outright owned your character that company would have to guarantee access to it forever.  If you don't sign an agreement releasing your rights to port your property off of their servers, they would have to give you access to download the server code so you could remove your property and still be able to use it.  If it was housed on their property (servers) and something happened to it (you get hacked and it gets deleted), they could be held liable in court for breach of contract unless they had a liability waiver.  Those kinda of things are why when you buy a game, you own nothing expect the box and whats physically inside of it.  

    Considering the price of a license to use the software and sub fees to play on their servers, imagine how costly it would be to actually own intellectual property in a game.   The costs would be staggering and rightly so with our litigation happy society.

  • ScarlyngScarlyng Pleasant Hill, CAPosts: 159Member

    I'm not a big fan of subscription fee games.  This is not because the companies don't have the right to charge whatever they want for their products.  It is because the existence of the sub fee promotes the same old style of thinking, which is to provide shiny rewards that are dependent on doing the same things over, and over, and over, and over ... ad infinitum.

    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  • VirgoThreeVirgoThree Tarzana, CAPosts: 1,220Member

    As many have pointed out you are paying for a licensed copy of the product upfront with the box purchase. The monthly fee is a service charge to continue using the "service" which generally includes content updates, tech support, 24/7 server access, maintenance, and anything else under the sun they want to put in the service category. Once you stop paying for the service you are cut off but you still have a licensed copy of the game.

    This is analagous to demanding premium satelite radio should only have one upfront cost and provide free service for life afterwards. If you buy a sirius XM satelite receiver you still have to pay the service charge to keep it active. Content doesn't come free.

    This reminds me I need to pay my XM bill because it just cut off :(

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grogstorm

    Well said.  And I chose to no longer pay them "tribute"  as per  "Worstluck's" definition.  And I forsee many other to follow suit as they learn of this exorbitant tax. 

    "Many others"?  Really?

    How many threads per day do you see of players outraged over subscription fees?

    Players were never excited by sub fees, and it's always blunted the genre's potential popularity, but it's not like any substantial chunk of players considers it an "exhorbent tax" and is aching to ditch the genre due to sub fees.  Open your eyes and take an accurate glance of what players are actually pissed about before making crazy claims.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • InfinityDInfinityD Long Beach, CAPosts: 33Member

    Why is it that people do not understand that it takes quite a bit of money to maintain and upgrade a persistant online game?

  • kb4blukb4blu Fuquay Varina, NCPosts: 683Member Uncommon

    Sounds to me that the OP needs to take an Econ 101 course. He does not seem to understand basic economics.

     

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by grogstorm

    It’s time to wake up and realze whats going on.  You need to stop renting server time for a game that you already own.  Basically a game subscription is nothing more than a rent/tax.

    What other commodity can you own where you have to continuously pay tax to actually use it?

    Some of you may say property.   As you have to continuously pay tax to continue owning it.  Well you can control the tax rate through your vote or where you live.  But server “tax” is fixed and you have little choice other than to discontinue using the item you own (cancel subscription) or continue to pay the ”tax”.

    Lets take a look at the “tax”.  If you buy a P2P game for $60, you then have to pay a “tax” to continue using it.  If your subscription is $15 a month you are paying $180 a year in “tax” or a rate of 300%/year.  That is absolutely ridiculous.   No wonder game CEO’s like Blizzards, Bobby Kotick, is taking in $14,950,182.00 a year (2009 data) and floating around in a $34.000.000.00 yacht.

    When you buy a car or house, you most likely will not pay more than 10% annually in tax for the privilege of owning it.  And again you have a say on the rate you are willing to pay.

    I for one have decided, I will no longer pay an ownership tax to play a game I already outright own.  I hope you see the wisdom in this argument and consider a “Buy to Play” [0% tax] game verses the “Pay to Play” [300% TAX] games.  It only makes sense to me.

    It’s time for a new Boston tea party, and though out these greedy game companies.

    And to think there are people who chose to play 2-3, P2P games at the same time.  [shakes head]

    Let me know if you agree with me or just don’t mind this “TAX”

    Should only have to pay for cable once too.

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