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Why Elder Scrolls Online won't work

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  • AdamaiAdamai derbyPosts: 469Member
    When I played skyrim which is the only elderscrolls game I've played my imediate first thoughts as an old school mmo player was wow!! This game would make a fantastic sandbox !! Add charecter customisation ditch all the npc facrtion buulshit and put the players in charge just like eve online! And elderscrolls online would be close to a perfect mmo but !! Judging by all the posts here that won't happen as you all have very narrow minds :) and I'm sorry if that's slightly insulting ! Its more of an informative wakeup call. You guys need to get wow out your heads ! As that's not what an mmo is supposed to be ! Its what they have become hence why all mmos are crap now!
  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adamai
    When I played skyrim which is the only elderscrolls game I've played my imediate first thoughts as an old school mmo player was wow!! This game would make a fantastic sandbox !! Add charecter customisation ditch all the npc facrtion buulshit and put the players in charge just like eve online! And elderscrolls online would be close to a perfect mmo but !! Judging by all the posts here that won't happen as you all have very narrow minds :) and I'm sorry if that's slightly insulting ! Its more of an informative wakeup call. You guys need to get wow out your heads ! As that's not what an mmo is supposed to be ! Its what they have become hence why all mmos are crap now!

     If they make a sandbox MMO out of Elder Scrolls like EvE Online then I am all for it.  However, I really can't see this being anything more than another hyped up cookie cutter.  If I am wrong and its EvE Online in an ES universe then I would be the first to join.  Do you actually think it will be though?

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by Adamai
    You need to ditch your whole idea of dungeon running becaus that's what wrecks mmos!

    Agreed, but dungeon running is a staple of TES.

    Even if Skyrim was your first, you'd have to agree that 85% of all the quest goals sat at the bottom of some dungeon. It's too bad you never played Daggerfall, though. That game literally had like thousands of them. Biggest game world ever, you had to use fast travel because it would take hours/days of walking in one direction to get anywhere. I usually walked from Privateer's Hold (or whatever the start dungeon was called) to the closest city of Chesterwark, just to remind myself how massive the game is, and then use fast travel 100% of the time after that.

    In fact, many people think the 'Radiant Quests' of Skyrim are some nuance that's specific to Skyrim, but the fact of the matter is that Daggerfall had it first in the near-infinite amounts of quest goals + dungeons that could be paired together for the many, many, many factions. The only static quests were in the main story.

    Nearly two dozen provinces and I spent most of my time in Daggerfall, Wayrest and Sentinel... lol.

    I feel like I missed out on a lot to this day.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member

    The biggest fail for TESO is the lack of innovating.

    They're using all the same tropes we've seen played out since 2004 and I think the base is getting tired of it.

    OR if they're not tired of it; why would they leave WoW to play a game that offers the same stuff and a different setting?

    I love TES' setting, but they're offering nothing new to the genre so I won't be playing it. Taking their RPG formula and stepping back 3 steps with quest hubs, phasing, and been there / done that mechanics from MMOs of yore.

     

    I  hope this game gets pulled before release honestly. It's kind of embrassing seeing this lack of craftsmanship from ZeniMax.

    a yo ho ho

  • chriswsmchriswsm Weston-super-MarePosts: 389Member

    Its interesting how many crystal balls there are on the MMORPG forums these days

     

    Always knowing exactly what will happen and always negative.  I honestly think no one will make a game that the naysayers will like as they are doomed not to like the sound of anything.

     

    And as for the No instances  -  They have not said the game will be without instances in fact there will be instances in some quest areas as some of them involve time travel to a past event.  i dont see how that could happen without an instance.

     

    Here is my prediction:   The game will make a profit for Zenimax & Bethesda.   They wouldnt bother if they were not confident on that front.   It might go F2P after a while.  It might be pants.  Emphesis on the word MIGHT as my crystal ball needs a good clean.

    I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.

    Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Originally posted by chriswsm

    Its interesting how many crystal balls there are on the MMORPG forums these days

     

    Always knowing exactly what will happen and always negative.  I honestly think no one will make a game that the naysayers will like as they are doomed not to like the sound of anything.

     

    And as for the No instances  -  They have not said the game will be without instances in fact there will be instances in some quest areas as some of them involve time travel to a past event.  i dont see how that could happen without an instance.

     

    Here is my prediction:   The game will make a profit for Zenimax & Bethesda.   They wouldnt bother if they were not confident on that front.   It might go F2P after a while.  It might be pants.  Emphesis on the word MIGHT as my crystal ball needs a good clean.

    Crystal ball you say?

    Experience I say.

    They're offering nothing that WAR, LotRO, or SWTOR hadn't offered before. They're bringing nothing that made Morrowind or any of the later TES games successful.

    You can call it predicting the future all you want. I see it as someone repeating the same mistakes other games prior have done already.

    Really it's sheer and utter ignorance on ZeniMax's behalf. I'm glad Bethesda's name isn't on this crap product.

    a yo ho ho

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member

    I have a feeling this game will be a success. I cannot wait for this to occur, the fanboi nerd rage that is going to go down on this board when that happens is going to be delicious. 

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member

    They're trying to make an mmorpg. fps combat won't work for mmorpg gamers. The whining about this is so over the top as to be laughable. Combat was the least cool part of TES games, I am glad they didn't try and cut and paste it.

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Originally posted by KingGator

    I have a feeling this game will be a success. I cannot wait for this to occur, the fanboi nerd rage that is going to go down on this board when that happens is going to be delicious. 

    Well WAR, FFXIV, and SWTOR can be considered successes if you look at it hard enough. I mean they're still around. That's a success.

    TESO will fall into that catagory of success. Yes.

    It won't be a good Elder Scrolls game tho' sadly.

    a yo ho ho

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

    I want to see some real gameplay here. I want to see how fluid the combat is , I want to see how immersive the game is, I want to see how the loot is going to work, I want to see how pvp is going to work. For a game that is coming out next year we sure have a lack of quality footage for the game. It worries me they are trying to cram everything in and just shove it out the door like everyone else does.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon

    I think the term "failure" should be reserved for MMO games that are shut down like APB, Hellgate London and Tabula Rasa.

    I think the term "success" should be reserved for MMO games that rival World of Warcraft in subsriber numbers and longevity.

    Everything else is just "mediocre."

    So I think TESO will be on the low end of mediocre but it will go freemium as soon as it can if it doesn't start that way, and that will boost it a little bit.

    I am hoping they NGE/CU the thing frankly.  Can't believe I'd ever actually WANT that having been through how it was for SWG.

  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mephster

    I want to see some real gameplay here. I want to see how fluid the combat is , I want to see how immersive the game is, I want to see how the loot is going to work, I want to see how pvp is going to work. For a game that is coming out next year we sure have a lack of quality footage for the game. It worries me they are trying to cram everything in and just shove it out the door like everyone else does.

    I personally think it won't work but I am still trying to find footage etc.  You are right though, the complete lack of info is daunting.  In saying that though, SWTOR and WAR, had amazing clips and footage and they both were lamo.

     

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by chryses
    Originally posted by Mephster

    I want to see some real gameplay here. I want to see how fluid the combat is , I want to see how immersive the game is, I want to see how the loot is going to work, I want to see how pvp is going to work. For a game that is coming out next year we sure have a lack of quality footage for the game. It worries me they are trying to cram everything in and just shove it out the door like everyone else does.

    I personally think it won't work but I am still trying to find footage etc.  You are right though, the complete lack of info is daunting.  In saying that though, SWTOR and WAR, had amazing clips and footage and they both were lamo.

     

    Not only is there a lack of ANY in-game footage (the environmental flythrough from E3 doesnt count), but since Zenimax announced TESO and the fan backlash they got about it, they have been strangely silent.

    The last couple of interviews they had they basically were "unappologetic" about making the game, backpeddling and putting any type of spin they could on the game.

    Now for almost 3 weeks. Nothing.

    I guess Matt Firor (of DAOC Fame) couldnt take the heat.

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
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    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Neverneverland, TNPosts: 877Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by chryses
    Originally posted by Mephster

    I want to see some real gameplay here. I want to see how fluid the combat is , I want to see how immersive the game is, I want to see how the loot is going to work, I want to see how pvp is going to work. For a game that is coming out next year we sure have a lack of quality footage for the game. It worries me they are trying to cram everything in and just shove it out the door like everyone else does.

    I personally think it won't work but I am still trying to find footage etc.  You are right though, the complete lack of info is daunting.  In saying that though, SWTOR and WAR, had amazing clips and footage and they both were lamo.

     

    Not only is there a lack of ANY in-game footage (the environmental flythrough from E3 doesnt count), but since Zenimax announced TESO and the fan backlash they got about it, they have been strangely silent.

    The last couple of interviews they had they basically were "unappologetic" about making the game, backpeddling and putting any type of spin they could on the game.

    Now for almost 3 weeks. Nothing.

    I guess Matt Firor (of DAOC Fame) couldnt take the heat.

     

    Strangely silent?  If anything they haven't been strangely silent as they have gone in and talked about the overall design quite thuroughly.  There have been numerous interviews and talks.  They can't go in depth of course when they have nothing to show like actual demos.

    As for it's success?  Well that will likely depend largely upon it's buisness model.  With SWTOR transitioning to F2P then hopefully that'll convince em to make it F2P if that wasn't decided already.   Also there are a lot of notworthy titles either B2P or F2P that will make a P2P MMO a tough sale nowadays.

    Once people get off their high horse of this isn't Skyrim Online then people might be a lot more open to the game.  There are quire a few intriguing concepts.

     

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Ambros123
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by chryses
    Originally posted by Mephster

    I want to see some real gameplay here. I want to see how fluid the combat is , I want to see how immersive the game is, I want to see how the loot is going to work, I want to see how pvp is going to work. For a game that is coming out next year we sure have a lack of quality footage for the game. It worries me they are trying to cram everything in and just shove it out the door like everyone else does.

    I personally think it won't work but I am still trying to find footage etc.  You are right though, the complete lack of info is daunting.  In saying that though, SWTOR and WAR, had amazing clips and footage and they both were lamo.

     

    Not only is there a lack of ANY in-game footage (the environmental flythrough from E3 doesnt count), but since Zenimax announced TESO and the fan backlash they got about it, they have been strangely silent.

    The last couple of interviews they had they basically were "unappologetic" about making the game, backpeddling and putting any type of spin they could on the game.

    Now for almost 3 weeks. Nothing.

    I guess Matt Firor (of DAOC Fame) couldnt take the heat.

     

    Strangely silent?  If anything they haven't been strangely silent as they have gone in and talked about the overall design quite thuroughly.  There have been numerous interviews and talks.  They can't go in depth of course when they have nothing to show like actual demos.

    As for it's success?  Well that will likely depend largely upon it's buisness model.  With SWTOR transitioning to F2P then hopefully that'll convince em to make it F2P if that wasn't decided already.   Also there are a lot of notworthy titles either B2P or F2P that will make a P2P MMO a tough sale nowadays.

    Once people get off their high horse of this isn't Skyrim Online then people might be a lot more open to the game.  There are quire a few intriguing concepts.

     

    its not uncommon for game companies leave actual game play videos for much closer to the release date. intrestingly Darkfall 2 has game play videos as some of their first.

    Never the less, the choice of words and questions being asked at these interviews makes it clear they are on the defensive. "unappologetic" is not a word one would have to use unless they were on the defensive.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by chryses

     I have always been an Elder Scrolls fan dating back to Daggerfall.  Having hammered Skyrim all week, I can't see how the essential ingredients that make the series work, can be transferred into an online format.

    1. Elder Scrolls is about exploring vast open landscapes that allows a player to get lost and find hidden dungeons, temples and interesting characters.
    Online - I don't believe they can create a massive world with little or no instances.  Exploration doesn't feel right when 25 other players are stomping all over the same temple.

    Every time you enter a house or dungeon, you've entered an instance. It would be no different online.

    2. Its realistic in the sense that you come across a lone NPC and you stalk them not knowing if they are friend/foe and assisting or just killing them if you wan't.
    Online - it will just be another spawn fest with multiple instances as everyone will be lining up to kill the same beast.

    Most quest goals end up being inside a dungeon, or indoors somehow... so...

    3. Its about complex combat, actual targeting and tactics. e.g. mid combat, swapping skills and spells whilst in pause mode. 
    Online - Fallen Earth is the closest I have seen to using this in an online format. Its clunky at best. Due to the bandwidth and mass appeal they need to generate, its going to end up auto targeting or a very rudimentary combat system.

    That much is true, but they could easily tone back to a Morrowind-like system based on rolls.

    I disagree with you almost whole-heartedly.

    The game can take all it's past/present conventions and make them work - they just won't because the suits at Zenimax attribute static MMO gameplay as to what MAKES an MMO an MMO... and they would rather attract players from the current stagnating market, ironically, by making it just like everything else that players are getting tired of - rather than indoctrinating their existing fanbase. A stupid move overall.

    he has very valid points.

    His first statement indicates that there is a difference in finding that one dungeon/temple/lost civilization/base, etc by one's self and discovering it with hordes of people all over the place, already there. And he'd be correct.

    You actually don't address his last sentence (edit: in that paragraph) so I would be interested to hear your take on that. It's one of the things that I've pondered. The only thing I ever came up with was an instanced world like the original guild wars but I'm not sure that's what elder scrolls players are looking for.

    However, maybe that would be your solution; the use of instances? Whether it's the world or dungeons?

    Actually its really easy to counter his arguments.

    1) You said that its different when too many players discover the same dungeon.

        My counter : Easily fixed, have the dungeon have doors and mechanics that others must access before the way is cleared to enter. For example, have Fork Roads that leads to different places, the deeper you go, the more dangerous it is, and to explore a single dungeon, not only will it take you hours, you will have to back track, or have to keep moving forward, as you don't know if someone will lock the door behind you. Not only will this make exploring fun and exciting, it also makes the whole thousands of players in the dungeon but are all at different places, and you might even tack along someone ahead just to avoid getting killed by surprise traps and Mini Bosses that pops out of nowhere.

        Temples and Dungeons doesn't always have to have only one way to move, you can have it branch out like a huge tree trunk, where it leads you never know, you might just find that hidden treasure that randomly pops.

    2) You are afraid of an spam fest where people comes and kills the NPC just cause.

       My counter: Easily fixed again, in skyrim, when someone dies their daughter or wives takes over so you never lose the merchant. Or their role in the game. All the game have to do is when the first Black Smith dies, their daughter takes over but with body guards, the more they die, the harder the body guard is. Eventually it will become an one hit kill Body Guard that you can never defeat. No more spam fest, because it will just be thousands of player bodies lying on the floor. For being Aholes.

    3) You stated that someone already made it happen, yet because it was first generation and its clunky, you feel its unnecessary?

       My counter: Again, fallen earth was first generation getting that combat down, we know its possible, the developers aren't new to the MMO scene, it doesn't mean that they have to copy exactly like what Fallen Earth does. Fallen Earth just shown us that its possible, is it clunky, sure, but it doesn't mean that in the years of development, they couldn't figure out how to make it smooth and work within the game they are developing.

     

    There are many views and opinions, yet it all comes down to whether or not the developer are willing to do the work. Currently it just seems that Zenimax doesn't want to challenge the formula. They are just continuing it down the same path many already taken.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • alterfenixalterfenix Bielsko-BialaPosts: 343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chryses

     I have always been an Elder Scrolls fan dating back to Daggerfall.  Having hammered Skyrim all week, I can't see how the essential ingredients that make the series work, can be transferred into an online format.

    1. Elder Scrolls is about exploring vast open landscapes that allows a player to get lost and find hidden dungeons, temples and interesting characters.
    Online - I don't believe they can create a massive world with little or no instances.  Exploration doesn't feel right when 25 other players are stomping all over the same temple.

    Well I share this sceptisism although I am not simply saying that it certainly will be like that. Currently we are overrun by MMORPG-like titles (WoW as it is now, Rift, Aion, etc). Even if the gameworld is big thanks to either poor crowd and population control or tools like dungeon finder (in fact also poor population control sign) RPG part of genre is dead. But then I also remember some old stuff, including WoW before WotLK and if they do it that way or similar (or just get inspired even to not look too far by DAoC) then it may work as long as they keep it that way or perhaps improve it but do not push it towards WotLK.

    2. Its realistic in the sense that you come across a lone NPC and you stalk them not knowing if they are friend/foe and assisting or just killing them if you wan't.
    Online - it will just be another spawn fest with multiple instances as everyone will be lining up to kill the same beast.

    True. The only real solution would be probably to shift it towards pure 3 faction stuff (so you have clear idea whom you can attack and whom not), make it FFAPvP (wont affect NPCs but at least will affect players), some really advanced phasing where every character can have their individual phase (another words system unlike in WoW where you do stuff, then join others on next level but with no loading screen). My bet is that it will be first solution but then regardless which one that would be it unlikely will be as it is in other TES games.

    3. Its about complex combat, actual targeting and tactics. e.g. mid combat, swapping skills and spells whilst in pause mode. 
    Online - Fallen Earth is the closest I have seen to using this in an online format. Its clunky at best. Due to the bandwidth and mass appeal they need to generate, its going to end up auto targeting or a very rudimentary combat system.

    Not sure how it will work in TESO however it really could be great if they just took a look at other TES games and Mortal Online. If they could make what MO has more attractive to average player then I suppose that could work really great.

    I am not trying to flame on this game, but as a massive fan of the series, I can't see how an online version can capture the essence of the single player game.  Just making another 3 faction warfare cookie cutter in the ES world stinks of a quick money grab from box sales.  I know its synical but after SWtOR and a few other releases, its hard not to feel this way for this game IMO, shouldn't be turned into an MMO for so many reasons.

    Some games are just not made for the MMO genre and I really feel this is one of them.

    Well I agree that making a game just because it is famous IP is bad (see WAR for example). But then no idea if we really should jump to conclusions before someone actually gets a chance to play TESO. Also a little bit of optimism is that I mentioned WAR for a reason, you did mention SWTOR, could be probably also mentioned DA2. In general titles that have one thing in common - publisher. Now ofc we all could hear some funny things about this company and what do they consider their studios to be (tools to make cash, if they don't work then just trash them). Not saying that Zenimax is better for sure but so far they didn't really show as many signs of such approach and that may work for TESO.

    Also I have to say that this is pretty much the first thread with criticism of TESO where OP criticises title but there is no QQ and some rage towards title that is not even in early beta yet:-)

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

    The Elder Scrolls Online will not work for the same reason as this...

    image

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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  • Zipp_23Zipp_23 PraguePosts: 25Member
    Honestly I like Elder Scrolls, but much more then another thempark mmo I would appreciate if the add a coop mod to the old Morrowind. So I can have the great expirience of playing awesome game with my friend or two.
  • SkuzSkuz WorcesterPosts: 1,034Member Uncommon

    Arguing over the game without at least some beta experience to provide a context for your arguments seems entirely pointless to me.

    I say it'll work just fine, it'll have a few issues, the majority of the vocal on this site will hate it & bash it like they do with everything else & it will go on to have a respectable player base regardless of the naysayers, doommongers & trolls with attitudes.

    Looking forward to getting my hands on it & taking it for a spin.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    I get the feeling that they will be making a generic MMO with a ES skin and lore, rather than a ES game altered to be online.

    For that reason I am expecting to be disappointed.

    Hopefully they prove me wrong.

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