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First of all,no lvls no class al all

24

Comments

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

    the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

    i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

    it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

    it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

    i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

    of course it would be first person as well, so you could actually see these cues on your characters hands and your enemies faces and bodies.

    they could atleast try this in a elder scrolls type single player game, but i think it would work fine in a mmo as well.

    imagine no ui..........

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rungard

    i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

    the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

    i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

    Any skill-based MMO

    it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

    Second Life, Kaneva

    it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

    Furcadia, Sociolotron, Puzzle Pirates.

    i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

    Shadowbane.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • EmrendilEmrendil TirionPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by dreamscaper
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Are people against classes or are they against uni-dimensional roles?

    Are people against levels or are they against a game that plays the same regardless of level and only changes due to the RNG?.

     

    I read this but then I also read people complaining that if all classes can play all roles at the same time they lose identity.

    I read this but then I also read people complaining that without a gear/stat progression the game loses interest.

     

    Lets not fool ourselves, eveb single player games have levels, even shooters have levels. Your character might not change but you acquire more weapons and/or more difficult enemies appear as you progress the game. Lookat RTS games, the campaign has levels and for PvP you have ranking/elos.

     

    The problem of the levels in MMORPGs is the fact the game doesn't become any different/challenging as you level - it is exactly the same with different gear/higher stats.

    Similar thing to classes - they play similarly (unless they acquire some really powerful skills).

     

    This is a good point. I like classes, and I like roles; what I don't like is the arbitrary nature of levels in most games. The vast majority of MMORPGs treat levels as a restraint rather than as a gauge like they should. What I mean by this is that suppose there is this monster in part of an area that is 10-15 levels above me. In most games, the enemy is difficult because if I'm below it's level, my damage, resistance, etc are all artifically affected by the level difference. What I'd like is for the level itself to be meaningless beyond a gauge. If I have an extremely well-equipped and well-played character, taking down that higher level enemy should be possible.

     

    The root of the problems is that developers have started using levels to simulate progression without any actual progression taking place. A level 90 character in WoW goes through less actual character progression than a level 20 character in D&D. This is what it seems like I don't like classes and levels - not because of the features themselves, but how they're being abused by developers.

    Same here. I like classes but don't care about levels. They can just get rid of them. Why can't they make an MMO, where you can just go straight to the "endgame" stuff. You would only do quests for better gear and gold.

  • blognorgblognorg Roseburg, ORPosts: 643Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by freegames
     

    I had a lot of fun playing Borderlands my first run through, but I hated how everything just scaled with you on the second run. It kind of made leveling pointless. Not to mention that it took a million bullets to kill anything towards the end. I'm not sure that I like levels in shooters. I feel that when numbers get involved with shooting people, it takes some the visceral feeling out of it. Like, if I shoot someone in the head with a shotgun at point blank, I expect one thing to happen... for their head to explode, not have to take 10 more shots. Like I said, I had a lot of fun doing coop on the first run, but I'm still waiting to hear more about the second one before I commit to a purchase.

    I get irritated too when I need to hit muliple headshots before some trash mob goes down. Thats the wrong kind of difficulty, I think.

    It is funny how we accept you have to hit a baddie multiple times with a melee weapon until he goes down. Then when we shoot em in the head everyone expects them to die right away. Is it Hollywood? Perhaps this is a topic for another thread.

    In the end just one punch to the face can kill you. We are very fragile.

    Haha. yeah, I've had the same thought. The way I explained to myself is that guns in first person perspective is a lot more visceral than what we've been conditioned to expect from fantasy swordplay. A few years ago I had my brother play Fallout 3. He's been a fantasy enthusiast all is his life (with D&D and so on), so he's pretty comfortable with the idea of hit points and all that. However, he didn't like it because when he shot a guy in the face from two feet out, the enemy just recoiled a little and kept coming at him. I think another thing is that guns are a little more connected our reality, and it's a little harder to suspend the disbelief.

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    There are many types of content that can have nothing to do with levels and can keep people entertained.  For one, the social game, which should not be artificial feeling (LFG) or suddently thrust on the player at mid or end game.  The social game should be part of the game's design, interwoven throughout the game's interdependent aspects.  Making friends, developing a reputation, gathering the power or the ability to influence others, waging war, forging alliances, etc.  There are many social games that have nothing to do with levels.

     

    Things which apply to the obsessive compulsive tendencies, like decorating, collecting, exploring to find rare opportunities.  I spent untold hours in my house in precu swg decorating, organizing, cleaning.  LOL.  I spent more time on my virtual house than my real one.

     

    Some people like to be different.  They don't care if they are the most powerful, they care if they are the most unique.  So having the ability to individualize your appearance and your skill set.  Having the ability to explore your character and tinker with skills and learn knew ones or drop ones you don't like and go in a different direction.  Freedom to experiment, to be unique....freedom to excel or freedom to fail.

     

    But it's much easier to design a themepark style game versus a sandbox.  I could design a themepark game in a day because it's very formulaic.  But with sandbox design, there are many things to consider.  It's easy to through out suggestions but to consider all the permutations and interactions is very complex.  It might take a month or so to come up with a good design, and even then you would need some brainstorming sessions with other gamers.  Sandbox is much more complex to design in my opinion, which is why you don't see any AAA sandbox.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    There are many types of content that can have nothing to do with levels and can keep people entertained.  For one, the social game, which should not be artificial feeling (LFG) or suddently thrust on the player at mid or end game.  The social game should be part of the game's design, interwoven throughout the game's interdependent aspects.  Making friends, developing a reputation, gathering the power or the ability to influence others, waging war, forging alliances, etc.  There are many social games that have nothing to do with levels.

     

    Things which apply to the obsessive compulsive tendencies, like decorating, collecting, exploring to find rare opportunities.  I spent untold hours in my house in precu swg decorating, organizing, cleaning.  LOL.  I spent more time on my virtual house than my real one.

     

    Some people like to be different.  They don't care if they are the most powerful, they care if they are the most unique.  So having the ability to individualize your appearance and your skill set.  Having the ability to explore your character and tinker with skills and learn knew ones or drop ones you don't like and go in a different direction.  Freedom to experiment, to be unique....freedom to excel or freedom to fail.

     

    But it's much easier to design a themepark style game versus a sandbox.  I could design a themepark game in a day because it's very formulaic.  But with sandbox design, there are many things to consider.  It's easy to through out suggestions but to consider all the permutations and interactions is very complex.  It might take a month or so to come up with a good design, and even then you would need some brainstorming sessions with other gamers.  Sandbox is much more complex to design in my opinion, which is why you don't see any AAA sandbox.


    *subscribes to Terranah's newsletter*

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by terrant

    Go ahead and tell me EVE has no classes

    EVE does not have classes.

    You got mixed up couple things here. The closest description of a class in EVE would be a ship you fly, not skills you have trained. It is the ship and equipment making you to perform the role(class), not skill you have trained.


    One of the determining attribute of class system is that they are definite. Nothing like that applies to EVE either.


    Progression does not necessarily produce levels. This is just false and absurd statement.

    I agree on your edit part. It seems it is mostly the implementation that cause people issues but then again, that isn't as much about levels/progression at the end of the dy but overall game design.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by rungard

    i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

    the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

    i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

    Any skill-based MMO

    it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

    Second Life, Kaneva

    it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

    Furcadia, Sociolotron, Puzzle Pirates.

    i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

    Shadowbane.

     

     got one that combines them all in a fantasy setting?

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes. When they came about they were very innovative. However, in the days of pen and paper the idea of 'maxing your character' was insanity and would take many years and many hours of dedication to do fairly.

    In mondern times the entire dynamic has changed because of how quickly we 'max' how often 'levels' happen so it feels rather dull. That all said, Classes, and Levels are both antiquated.

    The future is skill based gaming. Its likely what Gary Gayx should have done in the first place but hey, he invited the entire genre so lets give him credit!

     

    Thank you.

     

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rungard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by rungard

    i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

    the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

    i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

    Any skill-based MMO

    it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

    Second Life, Kaneva

    it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

    Furcadia, Sociolotron, Puzzle Pirates.

    i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

    Shadowbane.

     

     got one that combines them all in a fantasy setting?

    I want innovation! I want change! I want something different! I want it in a sword and sorcery fantasy setting... and it better have an auction house... and no stylized artwork... and it better allow me to choose my skills, but better not let me see a fireball casting warrior or mage in plate. I don't want devs to reinvent the wheel, just to make what I like new and fun.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Heinz130

    LEVELS

    lvls bring us to one of major problems of the old mmos,end game

    A game that adopt lvls char progress system requires the player to actly reach the max lvl to enjoy all aspects of the game,being the lvling path a waste of time frenetic questing,instancing untill u reach the max lvl and starts the real game

    lvl is a old char progression made for table rpgs,no point in adopt it for eletronic games of any kind

    CLASSES

    Its just a way to push players to keep playing boring silly games after they reach the end game to find its also boring like the rest of the game

    Major problem of class based system is the UNBALANCE btw classes,i was in that hell for over 4 years back in my wow-nerf-disnerf days

    EVE and TSW are the most close to reasonable char progression systens

    You should just play an fps game then, levels and classes are part of any good mmorpg. Proof? Find me one that succeeded without them.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

    Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

    Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

    That doesnt make any sense.

    If someone was level 15 should they have less skill if they where in a party of campagin tht was 5? sure it makes things a pain but think about it. If I have 10 years experience as a fighter why would I want my skills limited just because I am out with a bunch of guys just out of fighter school?

    That said, skill based just makes more sense now that the genre has matured.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

    Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

    No levels not "flawed". Its something to look forward to - and back once you're there. Plus its very addictive. Some name dropping here and there an appearance from a legendary character showing off his/her power. They make nice moments in RPGs both tabletop and PC.

    I remember using level disparity as a penalty when I was a DM: If your character died I let you roll another one level behind the others. Sort of put some weight on staying alive. That is if the players didn't have much emotional attachment to their character and rerolling was a non-issue.

    Still I made sure no-one was behind, or ahead, more than one level. Otherwise it would've made designing encounters harder because you had to come up with something worthwhile for everyone to do. Level 20s fighting a dragon while the lone 1st level guy, the group mascot, stays back and creates shadowpuppets to amuse himself. Not the ideal encounter, is it?

    If levels are flawed then every classless, level-less game is flawed because they have little to look forward to - not to mention "dinging" is not nearly as satisfying.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon

    You forget that unlike other games, where the whole point of the game is to beat it.  MMOs can't be beaten...MMOs are all about the journey, not the destination.  I think alot of people either don't know this, or forgot it. Including devs...Blizzard actually did a good job at revamping the world, they must've realized this.  Endgame is fun and all, but nothing beats the rush of getting to level 20 so you can buy your first mount, or get to a certain level to go explore a new zone.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

    Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

    No levels not "flawed". Its something to look forward to - and back once you're there. Plus its very addictive. Some name dropping here and there an appearance from a legendary character showing off his/her power. They make nice moments in RPGs both tabletop and PC.

    I remember using level disparity as a penalty when I was a DM: If your character died I let you roll another one level behind the others. Sort of put some weight on staying alive. That is if the players didn't have much emotional attachment to their character and rerolling was a non-issue.

    Still I made sure no-one was behind, or ahead, more than one level. Otherwise it would've made designing encounters harder because you had to come up with something worthwhile for everyone to do. Level 20s fighting a dragon while the lone 1st level guy, the group mascot, stays back and creates shadowpuppets to amuse himself. Not the ideal encounter, is it?

    If levels are flawed then every classless, level-less game is flawed because they have little to look forward to - not to mention "dinging" is not nearly as satisfying.

    yeah I dont consider levels and classes flawed, I just consider a skill based system an improvement on an older system. With a skill based you still get all the statisfaction of progression but you get more freedom in how you define your characters abilities. I am also more of a fan of 'get better as you use it' systems.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon

    If you don't like levels or leveling, you shouldn't be playing MMOs...

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    You forget that unlike other games, where the whole point of the game is to beat it.  MMOs can't be beaten...MMOs are all about the journey, not the destination.  I think alot of people either don't know this, or forgot it. Including devs...Blizzard actually did a good job at revamping the world, they must've realized this.  Endgame is fun and all, but nothing beats the rush of getting to level 20 so you can buy your first mount, or get to a certain level to go explore a new zone.

    agreed

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    If you don't like levels or leveling, you shouldn't be playing MMOs...

    If you never played an MMORPG without levels (all have progression of some form) than you really don't know what you've missed.

    Seek to broaden your horizons.

    image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    If you don't like levels or leveling, you shouldn't be playing MMOs...

    skill based games is like having a triilion different levels rather than just one.

    I take it you dont know how skill based games work

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    it just hit me!

    for those who dont know 'skill based' games in the context of levels do not mean player skill.

    They mean that all your characters skill progress in numbers but you can raise whatever you like by doing the actions that increase those skills.

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Heinz130

    LEVELS

    lvls bring us to one of major problems of the old mmos,end game

    A game that adopt lvls char progress system requires the player to actly reach the max lvl to enjoy all aspects of the game,being the lvling path a waste of time frenetic questing,instancing untill u reach the max lvl and starts the real game

    lvl is a old char progression made for table rpgs,no point in adopt it for eletronic games of any kind

    CLASSES

    Its just a way to push players to keep playing boring silly games after they reach the end game to find its also boring like the rest of the game

    Major problem of class based system is the UNBALANCE btw classes,i was in that hell for over 4 years back in my wow-nerf-disnerf days

    EVE and TSW are the most close to reasonable char progression systens

    Preaching to the choir there bud. Preachin to the choir. Been through that with my hunter, one week BM would work and work well, the next week couldn't do enough dps to do dungeons, the next week it would be back up just a little bit, the next week it would be completely broken. Left the game after the fourth week of it in WoTLK. That idiot Greg kept messing with the only class that should have been top dps the entire life expectency. Instead he's made harry potter fans waving wands the top dps by default. 

    They do need to evolve this poor excuse for a system. sure you need to have serious firepower to do most important things in the game as well as survivability but there are ways of doing it without forcing people into classes. What gets me is when they take it a step further an force you into a gender role as well. There's also the issue of having to make characters the same level for things gamers like to do together.....and thus we have mentoring. I like mentoring but how about looking at the whole picture and making the game not require that in the first place to be able to play with friends who joined the game later then you did?

  • merv808merv808 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 493Member Common
    Originally posted by Terranah

    There are many types of content that can have nothing to do with levels and can keep people entertained.  For one, the social game, which should not be artificial feeling (LFG) or suddently thrust on the player at mid or end game.  The social game should be part of the game's design, interwoven throughout the game's interdependent aspects.  Making friends, developing a reputation, gathering the power or the ability to influence others, waging war, forging alliances, etc.  There are many social games that have nothing to do with levels.

     

    Things which apply to the obsessive compulsive tendencies, like decorating, collecting, exploring to find rare opportunities.  I spent untold hours in my house in precu swg decorating, organizing, cleaning.  LOL.  I spent more time on my virtual house than my real one.

     

    Some people like to be different.  They don't care if they are the most powerful, they care if they are the most unique.  So having the ability to individualize your appearance and your skill set.  Having the ability to explore your character and tinker with skills and learn knew ones or drop ones you don't like and go in a different direction.  Freedom to experiment, to be unique....freedom to excel or freedom to fail.

     

    But it's much easier to design a themepark style game versus a sandbox.  I could design a themepark game in a day because it's very formulaic.  But with sandbox design, there are many things to consider.  It's easy to through out suggestions but to consider all the permutations and interactions is very complex.  It might take a month or so to come up with a good design, and even then you would need some brainstorming sessions with other gamers.  Sandbox is much more complex to design in my opinion, which is why you don't see any AAA sandbox.

    People USED to want to play the character they wanted to play. I don't think the games have changed as much as the players have. Players these days just want to play the "max" character. Let players pick skills and they will pick the ones someone else tells them are best. Let them choose equipment and they will choose whatever is most powerful. (even if it looks ridiculous) Nobody makes unpopular choices for fear of "gimping" their character. There's no joy in building or playing a character anymore, its all just number-crunching

    Game Devs have stopped putting emphasis on housing, crafting, music and other social aspects because people just want to be uber powerful combat specialists.

    Bottom line... People make characters that lack....well, character.

  • merv808merv808 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 493Member Common
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    If you don't like levels or leveling, you shouldn't be playing MMOs...

    better yet, you shouldn't be playing RPGs. There are plenty of other game types out there (i.e. shooters, adventure, etc.) that don't utilize levels or classes.

    once you lose classes the role playing part disappears, and you're left with just an adventure game anyway. Do they have co-op adventure games?

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    If you don't like levels or leveling, you shouldn't be playing MMOs...

    skill based games is like having a triilion different levels rather than just one.

    I take it you dont know how skill based games work

    Yeah I've played several skill based games early on. Haven't played any recent ones, except eve.  Skill based actually were around before the player level came around

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