TSW combat doesn't compare to its main competitor GW2.
From my experience combat feels bland especially if you compare it to vivid, fluid combat animations GW2. My favourite video shows a duel between a warrior and a guardian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO6tyJ8oG6E
Freedom of choice between 500 skills sound nice, but is restricted by the number of sensible synergy combinations between them. Furthermore TSW just lack originality, many of them are copies of each other in terms of what they do, how they look like and all is different is the passive synergy connections. A major mistake on Funcom side, the combat is simply not fun. On other hand from I have seen GW2 skills are class and weapon restricted but feel different and almost every of them serves different purpose. Not to mention how active dodge is usable at least 3 times as often as TSW's and active block, knockback ( basically a lot of mobility skills ) make the combat feel much more dynamic and exciting.
You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.
You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all. So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.
Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.
You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.
If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?
So 1 more person who knows everythg saying OP got TOp gear AND he can't get HIM below 70%
PLS moreblahblah post video with your char 1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot" or really try to argue about topic here "complex of fight in TSW"
you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons. nothg else. you dont need any tactic you dont need cc.
Yes I know everything, the op has no idea how to play he is just running around killing noobies. I know what gear combination will give that ammount of health and that amount of pen/crit. I would even go so far as to say this is a old video before the pen issue was resolved about 10 days ago. I play a healer and there is no way he could do jack to me with that build. He is just running around killing noobies while wearing top end gear.
His whole post is just one big lie. He show a few fight where he pawns a few noobies, total cherry picking of the video footage. If he was honest he would of opened his character sheet and shown his stats and gear but being the kind of person he is he cannot do that because it would show him to be the dishonest person he is. [mod edit]
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I would say in the long run GW2 will survive a lot longer then secret world, just for it, swtor based most of his game in quests and its what its now
spam 1 or 2 skills to build resources then use it to kill is the basic of the game, but the fun fact most of time is working together with passives to scale or burst damage, also some skills changed and/or just bugged on the last BTW
Please remember to stick to the topic and not derail the thread with talk of GW2. Examples are okay but if the main point/content of your post isn't about TSW, it should be.
Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy or chain or etc etc etc
Yeah.
The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.
I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.
GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol
No no, it's like people have said, the only way to figure out which is the most powerful is to try each of the "six million" builds yourself.
/sarcasm
Meta-gaming can be more interesting than the actual game itself, and the same computers that allow us to play the game can measure the game far faster than a person can (as you higlighted yourself).
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.
Its much easier to be a top dps in WoW, lotro, AoC ect. as it takes more from the player to stand out here. Not to be good, but to be great.
One small exp (there are loads of them): You got one passive (can have multiple making it even harder) that stacks 4 buffs on you then next hit is guaranted pen or crit. When it procs to 4 you just dont have one skill thats always best, like the other games which you hit every proc. You have to look at how many res you have build on each weapon, this to see if skill 1,2 or 3 is the best to use, also if you have to few to use the finisher and better be of with starter. Along with elite skill, and often more then CD abi. So when you get different procs you will have 4-5 skills (or more depends on skills you choose) that is best to use depending on how many res you got on each weapon, seeing this keeping track of it and always using the right one depending on all the different procs you get from passives takes alot more skill then all the other mentioned mmos you compared the combat to. You dont have many seconds to deside either, this will keep the "great" ones from the "good/normal" ones.
In most mmos you just learn a easy rotation, look at debuffs on targets (also in TSW), and have designated skills to use on procs. Not to be harsh on you, but you wont be one of the great dps in here.
Originally posted by Dredde Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.
The passives somewhat add a layer of complexity, but that's only because the game is new. Once people start coming up with the best synergies, there will be just a handful of "top builds" which everyone who cares about effectiveness will be using.
At any rate, the video somehow made it to the closed beta forums. As I imagined, a lot of forum badasses there too so I decided to log in in-game last night with a largely different blade/chaos build (different synergies and different 2-button smash rotation, only used chaos mostly for evasion). No footage, sorry. Although one of the guys I met in-game had this to say:
OK I just got facerolled by him I would say roughly a dozen times. Now I won't say I'm the best player in the world (really slow to react and I lag a lot on my 32-bit system) but my build usually makes up the difference in button mashing and I actually win most of my 1v1 fights so in no way am I a lowbie in the pure sense.
I was using my best build. I rarely lose 1v1 with this build (roughly 1 in 20 losses.) This is it:
Not even close. What struck me was his use of interrupts. I think you guys have done a good job of reconstructing his possible passives. By the time i could act I was down half my hp with tank armor on. For the last few fights I replaced Chaotic Pull with Smoke and Mirrors and Paradigm Shift with Perseverance and so I was literally popping three defensive actives and still getting my fat behind handed to me. He did use some form of blade finisher on me though so he may have amended his Chaos/Fists to Chaos/Blades.
I agree he has found some great synergies. But I have to say hindering and in general mezzing seems a bit OP at present imo -- especially since the counters seem rather situational. Nevertheless got pwned fair and square.
This too is a very good build and, as you say Scribe, not all that different from mine. I too can usually hold off multiple enemies in gank situations, and since I chose to play Dragon in beta -- going Templar in live unless I hate the people I play with -- I am in a LOT of gank situations. Basically, they are both very solid defensive builds made to withstand a variety of situations in PvP.
His, however, is an out and out assassination build. What is disturbing is how easily he was able to achieve his goal (depressingly, his original assertion of mashing just two buttons might, in the end, be accurate, though the underlying synergies are complex). And as is usual in games like this (Magic: TG for example) specific decks always trump general purpose decks.
The difference here, unlike Magic, is that there is no way (IMO) to build a **reliable** counter to a deck like his in this game. Even if it is completely reactive (meaning it is useless in all other situations except when facing off with Critical) you will not be guaranteed success even 50% of the time because counter-stun/mezzing simply sucks compared to stun/mezzing. A good player like him can chain mezz an opponent for a good ten (maybe longer even) seconds while unloading all his alphas. By the time you can react you are down to half (maybe less) your hp and fighting an uphill battle where you have to pop your defensives immediately just to stay alive a bit longer while he can use his tactically until his alphas come back off CD. Let's say you pop a counter-mezz (usually an elite ability and one that lasts for what, 6-8 seconds?) he can just wait till you're through and go through the rest of his chain-mezzing rotation. No doubt he will have plenty left in his toolbag I'm sure. And if you devote your one elite to counter-mezzing...well then your damage and utility go right out the window.
In short: the only build that can stand a chance against one like his in a 1v1 situation is...basically his build. Which essentially means that his original thesis -- the combat in this game is overtly simplistic -- might be accurate, but not in the way he thinks. He was pointing out that the gameplay (i.e. button mashing just two buttons) is simple. That may or may not be so. What is more disturbing to me, however, is that the **design** of the ability system is at its core simplistic in that it rewards a player for choosing a handful of OP mezz-inducing abilities exclusively, while neglecting (justifiably in this case) 99% of the skill wheel.
To those of us who avoided PvP in other MMOs (and I'm not referring to WoW specifically since I am one of the few to have never played it) because of this precise reason -- mezzing and the nerd-rage it induces as you stare at your toon being beaten to a fine paste while you beat impotently on your keyboard -- this is very bad news.
Just judging from the initial dash attack damage it was people who were undergeared for pvp and didn't understand the basis for combat systems. I loved how someone showed a gw2 duel which was mostly the same as TSW except that he was using the dash and roll every 5 secs. If people are using only 2 buttons to play then they are playing wrong and watching the video the guy was using alot more skills then the 2 suggested.
Example most players did not achieve any state change against him that means their build was not meant to state change. Most players were using melee and would choke changing to ranged. etc etc
Just judging from the initial dash attack damage it was people who were undergeared for pvp and didn't understand the basis for combat systems. I loved how someone showed a gw2 duel which was mostly the same as TSW except that he was using the dash and roll every 5 secs. If people are using only 2 buttons to play then they are playing wrong and watching the video the guy was using alot more skills then the 2 suggested.
Example most players did not achieve any state change against him that means their build was not meant to state change. Most players were using melee and would choke changing to ranged. etc etc
So you are saying the closed beta testers who are given level 10 gear that gives less HPs than anyone in that video, the SP to use that gear, and every skill in the game have an issue with spamming a builder and then when the count is 5 they can use a finisher. Two buttons isn't that complex, maybe throw in a stun or two.
That GW2 video demos strategy, tactics, what looks to be a good combat system, skill elements such as blocking or dodging, much more diverse skillsets/abilities than any TSW build. There are 3 fight clubs in TSW so where are the duel videos that showcase how TSW combat is comparable?
Link some awesome TSW PvP videos as I want to see where my critisism of TSW's combat is wrong. I was looking through the beta vids on youtube and are many two button superheros.
Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.
The passives don't make TSW's combat gameplay complex. While the passive synergies and the large and accessible skill wheel give the illusion of "complexity", all they actually add is a needle in the haystack problem. You have few slots but many abilities to choose from, and your job is to find the few combinations of abilities that amount to something useful. Once you find those, the problem is solved and you are left with very little.
This is akin to tic-tac-toe. On the surface it seems like there is some complexity because of the number of possible variations of moves you can take. Due to illusion countless people play various permutations of the game and enjoy it. There are, however, only two optimal strategies that force a never-lose situation. Most people never become aware of this because they don't perform that needle in the haystack search to find those moves, but the reality is the game is extremely simple, quickly solvable, and in no way complex once you do so.
The bottom line is that TSW has extremely simple mechanics underlying a very large number of abilities that work very similar to one another across the entire skill wheel. There's nothing wrong with liking that, and Greyhooff never said there was (actually he explicitly stated the exact opposite at one point in the thread), but liking a simplistic game isn't the same as it being complex and I don't know why people keep insisting that it is.
It's ok guys. Your e-peens won't be any shorter if your favorite MMO has simplistic combat.
After watching the video, reading the entire thread, and having been in CB some time PvPing.... TONES without FATE.. (lame, but useful way to test PvP content I suppose.) All I can say Oper.... Go back to WoW and your Macro Spamming.. really. Thats all fanboy.
Originally posted by Dredde Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.
The passives somewhat add a layer of complexity, but that's only because the game is new. Once people start coming up with the best synergies, there will be just a handful of "top builds" which everyone who cares about effectiveness will be using.
At any rate, the video somehow made it to the closed beta forums. As I imagined, a lot of forum badasses there too so I decided to log in in-game last night with a largely different blade/chaos build (different synergies and different 2-button smash rotation, only used chaos mostly for evasion). No footage, sorry. Although one of the guys I met in-game had this to say:
OK I just got facerolled by him I would say roughly a dozen times. Now I won't say I'm the best player in the world (really slow to react and I lag a lot on my 32-bit system) but my build usually makes up the difference in button mashing and I actually win most of my 1v1 fights so in no way am I a lowbie in the pure sense.
I was using my best build. I rarely lose 1v1 with this build (roughly 1 in 20 losses.) This is it:
Not even close. What struck me was his use of interrupts. I think you guys have done a good job of reconstructing his possible passives. By the time i could act I was down half my hp with tank armor on. For the last few fights I replaced Chaotic Pull with Smoke and Mirrors and Paradigm Shift with Perseverance and so I was literally popping three defensive actives and still getting my fat behind handed to me. He did use some form of blade finisher on me though so he may have amended his Chaos/Fists to Chaos/Blades.
I agree he has found some great synergies. But I have to say hindering and in general mezzing seems a bit OP at present imo -- especially since the counters seem rather situational. Nevertheless got pwned fair and square.
This too is a very good build and, as you say Scribe, not all that different from mine. I too can usually hold off multiple enemies in gank situations, and since I chose to play Dragon in beta -- going Templar in live unless I hate the people I play with -- I am in a LOT of gank situations. Basically, they are both very solid defensive builds made to withstand a variety of situations in PvP.
His, however, is an out and out assassination build. What is disturbing is how easily he was able to achieve his goal (depressingly, his original assertion of mashing just two buttons might, in the end, be accurate, though the underlying synergies are complex). And as is usual in games like this (Magic: TG for example) specific decks always trump general purpose decks.
The difference here, unlike Magic, is that there is no way (IMO) to build a **reliable** counter to a deck like his in this game. Even if it is completely reactive (meaning it is useless in all other situations except when facing off with Critical) you will not be guaranteed success even 50% of the time because counter-stun/mezzing simply sucks compared to stun/mezzing. A good player like him can chain mezz an opponent for a good ten (maybe longer even) seconds while unloading all his alphas. By the time you can react you are down to half (maybe less) your hp and fighting an uphill battle where you have to pop your defensives immediately just to stay alive a bit longer while he can use his tactically until his alphas come back off CD. Let's say you pop a counter-mezz (usually an elite ability and one that lasts for what, 6-8 seconds?) he can just wait till you're through and go through the rest of his chain-mezzing rotation. No doubt he will have plenty left in his toolbag I'm sure. And if you devote your one elite to counter-mezzing...well then your damage and utility go right out the window.
In short: the only build that can stand a chance against one like his in a 1v1 situation is...basically his build. Which essentially means that his original thesis -- the combat in this game is overtly simplistic -- might be accurate, but not in the way he thinks. He was pointing out that the gameplay (i.e. button mashing just two buttons) is simple. That may or may not be so. What is more disturbing to me, however, is that the **design** of the ability system is at its core simplistic in that it rewards a player for choosing a handful of OP mezz-inducing abilities exclusively, while neglecting (justifiably in this case) 99% of the skill wheel.
To those of us who avoided PvP in other MMOs (and I'm not referring to WoW specifically since I am one of the few to have never played it) because of this precise reason -- mezzing and the nerd-rage it induces as you stare at your toon being beaten to a fine paste while you beat impotently on your keyboard -- this is very bad news.
It's early days yet, and there will be many nerfs and buffs to come
If your build is relying heavily on stuns and mezzing, then perhaps there is cause for a "balance adjustment" in that area. Or perhaps the countering moves needs balancing.
With 524 skills/passives to choose from, I highly doubt tha FC have analysed all the possible combo's and balanced everything to a fine point. Even if their dev team consists of 300 people, that is no match for the creativity of a playerbase numbering 200K or 300K.
The mechanics of combat in EVE are simple too. But the complexity is derived from the fact that every skill has a perfect counter. The trick is deciding which counters you will use in your "deck" (ship loadout), because you cannot use ALL the counters at the same time. A simplistic example would be if you meet someone in combat that's packing lasers, and you're stacked up for projectile defence, you're toast. With the correct defence type, it becomes a fair fight.
- Highest DPS build: found. Rotation is 2 buttons, rest is cds that can be spammed on cd, it's all in the choice of passives, very easy.
- Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.
Having lots of fun facerolling. I'll post the builds here next week although by then everyone will probably be using them.
Supposedly they will be implementlng a really bad version of Dimishing Returns (the rumor is 30 seconds between being CC'd)
I've found combat to be...pretty passive.
Combat in PvE boils down to :
Apply weakness skill
Exploit weakness skill
Finisher weapon A
Finisher weapon B
---
I spent most of my combat time just watching my builder points going up an down. I watch for the "Tells" (huge chalk outlines telling you the mob is doing a "super" attack) but that's about it.
For me at the moment, deep in the blue mountains my rotation is as follows.
1. Builderx5, occasionly need a dodge or aoe snare in this. This is your basic spam to build up resources.
2. Hit cooldown buff (I have 2x90sec cooldown buffs, one is a 25% damage boost, other is penetration boost). Can use both here, but I prefer to cycle them so I have one each fight.
3. Cast my 3 finishers (yes 3)
4. Finish off mob with builder, usually 2-3 more uses, sometimes need another finisher in there.
- Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.
Isn't there an ability in one the misc green outer ring trees that removes stuns and makes you immune for a few seconds? I saw that mentioned a few minutes ago on the official forums.
Edit: found it, costs 9 AP.
Sleight of Hand
Removes all active crowd control effects from you and makes you immune to further crowd control effects for 7 seconds.
I think a lot of people are missing the misc trees.
- Highest DPS build: found. Rotation is 2 buttons, rest is cds that can be spammed on cd, it's all in the choice of passives, very easy.
- Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.
Having lots of fun facerolling. I'll post the builds here next week although by then everyone will probably be using them.
So, you're having lots of fun ?
In that case, I have to assume that the combat is not boring after all.
Or does the combat only become boring once everyone has the FOTM builds and you can't faceroll anymore ?
- Highest DPS build: found. Rotation is 2 buttons, rest is cds that can be spammed on cd, it's all in the choice of passives, very easy.
- Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.
Having lots of fun facerolling. I'll post the builds here next week although by then everyone will probably be using them.
So, you're having lots of fun ?
In that case, I have to assume that the combat is not boring after all.
Or does the combat only become boring once everyone has the FOTM builds and you can't faceroll anymore ?
I also had fun facerolling in AOC with my full gemmed polearm guardian who could one-shot anyone, constantly.
It was fun, but that lasted a week. So I'll probably get bored of what I'm doing now in a week. Until then, wheeeee.
Also, CC-immunity with sleight of hand is no issue. If someone pops it, fine, I can just stunlock them to death a few seconds later.
The main issue is that right now, there are only 2 options for best results, 1 for PVE and 1 for PVP, and both involve pressing 2 buttons.
I actually am really enjoying the combat, i think part of it is that i have a good build (pistols/shortgun) not just in my weapon choices but in my use of skills. Its a very mobile combat build.
Havent found the games combat to be anywhere near as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be.
Ok i can see combat sucking if you make a gimp or lame build with poor selection of skills/passives....im thinking this is pretty much the source of the issues.
I played another games beta not too long ago, one whos combat is hailed as awesome....i spammed less buttons and theres was no system behind it...just spam my good damage skill...and that is in a game where everyones raving about combat...so it seems somethings a bit off with the terrible combat talk.
Mabey the animations dont involve enough over the top flahyness?
I actually am really enjoying the combat, i think part of it is that i have a good build (pistols/shortgun) not just in my weapon choices but in my use of skills. Its a very mobile combat build.
Havent found the games combat to be anywhere near as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be.
Ok i can see combat sucking if you make a gimp or lame build with poor selection of skills/passives....im thinking this is pretty much the source of the issues.
I played another games beta not too long ago, one whos combat is hailed as awesome....i spammed less buttons and theres was no system behind it...just spam my good damage skill...and that is in a game where everyones raving about combat...so it seems somethings a bit off with the terrible combat talk.
Mabey the animations dont involve enough over the top flahyness?
the combat is good, it's just that some people are bad at it and think it is the game problem....
Comments
TSW combat doesn't compare to its main competitor GW2.
From my experience combat feels bland especially if you compare it to vivid, fluid combat animations GW2. My favourite video shows a duel between a warrior and a guardian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO6tyJ8oG6E
Freedom of choice between 500 skills sound nice, but is restricted by the number of sensible synergy combinations between them. Furthermore TSW just lack originality, many of them are copies of each other in terms of what they do, how they look like and all is different is the passive synergy connections. A major mistake on Funcom side, the combat is simply not fun. On other hand from I have seen GW2 skills are class and weapon restricted but feel different and almost every of them serves different purpose. Not to mention how active dodge is usable at least 3 times as often as TSW's and active block, knockback ( basically a lot of mobility skills ) make the combat feel much more dynamic and exciting.
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I would say in the long run GW2 will survive a lot longer then secret world, just for it, swtor based most of his game in quests and its what its now
spam 1 or 2 skills to build resources then use it to kill is the basic of the game, but the fun fact most of time is working together with passives to scale or burst damage, also some skills changed and/or just bugged on the last BTW
Please remember to stick to the topic and not derail the thread with talk of GW2. Examples are okay but if the main point/content of your post isn't about TSW, it should be.
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No no, it's like people have said, the only way to figure out which is the most powerful is to try each of the "six million" builds yourself.
/sarcasm
Meta-gaming can be more interesting than the actual game itself, and the same computers that allow us to play the game can measure the game far faster than a person can (as you higlighted yourself).
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.
Its much easier to be a top dps in WoW, lotro, AoC ect. as it takes more from the player to stand out here. Not to be good, but to be great.
One small exp (there are loads of them): You got one passive (can have multiple making it even harder) that stacks 4 buffs on you then next hit is guaranted pen or crit. When it procs to 4 you just dont have one skill thats always best, like the other games which you hit every proc. You have to look at how many res you have build on each weapon, this to see if skill 1,2 or 3 is the best to use, also if you have to few to use the finisher and better be of with starter. Along with elite skill, and often more then CD abi. So when you get different procs you will have 4-5 skills (or more depends on skills you choose) that is best to use depending on how many res you got on each weapon, seeing this keeping track of it and always using the right one depending on all the different procs you get from passives takes alot more skill then all the other mentioned mmos you compared the combat to. You dont have many seconds to deside either, this will keep the "great" ones from the "good/normal" ones.
In most mmos you just learn a easy rotation, look at debuffs on targets (also in TSW), and have designated skills to use on procs. Not to be harsh on you, but you wont be one of the great dps in here.
The passives somewhat add a layer of complexity, but that's only because the game is new. Once people start coming up with the best synergies, there will be just a handful of "top builds" which everyone who cares about effectiveness will be using.
At any rate, the video somehow made it to the closed beta forums. As I imagined, a lot of forum badasses there too so I decided to log in in-game last night with a largely different blade/chaos build (different synergies and different 2-button smash rotation, only used chaos mostly for evasion). No footage, sorry. Although one of the guys I met in-game had this to say:
Just judging from the initial dash attack damage it was people who were undergeared for pvp and didn't understand the basis for combat systems. I loved how someone showed a gw2 duel which was mostly the same as TSW except that he was using the dash and roll every 5 secs. If people are using only 2 buttons to play then they are playing wrong and watching the video the guy was using alot more skills then the 2 suggested.
Example most players did not achieve any state change against him that means their build was not meant to state change. Most players were using melee and would choke changing to ranged. etc etc
So you are saying the closed beta testers who are given level 10 gear that gives less HPs than anyone in that video, the SP to use that gear, and every skill in the game have an issue with spamming a builder and then when the count is 5 they can use a finisher. Two buttons isn't that complex, maybe throw in a stun or two.
That GW2 video demos strategy, tactics, what looks to be a good combat system, skill elements such as blocking or dodging, much more diverse skillsets/abilities than any TSW build. There are 3 fight clubs in TSW so where are the duel videos that showcase how TSW combat is comparable?
Link some awesome TSW PvP videos as I want to see where my critisism of TSW's combat is wrong. I was looking through the beta vids on youtube and are many two button superheros.
The passives don't make TSW's combat gameplay complex. While the passive synergies and the large and accessible skill wheel give the illusion of "complexity", all they actually add is a needle in the haystack problem. You have few slots but many abilities to choose from, and your job is to find the few combinations of abilities that amount to something useful. Once you find those, the problem is solved and you are left with very little.
This is akin to tic-tac-toe. On the surface it seems like there is some complexity because of the number of possible variations of moves you can take. Due to illusion countless people play various permutations of the game and enjoy it. There are, however, only two optimal strategies that force a never-lose situation. Most people never become aware of this because they don't perform that needle in the haystack search to find those moves, but the reality is the game is extremely simple, quickly solvable, and in no way complex once you do so.
The bottom line is that TSW has extremely simple mechanics underlying a very large number of abilities that work very similar to one another across the entire skill wheel. There's nothing wrong with liking that, and Greyhooff never said there was (actually he explicitly stated the exact opposite at one point in the thread), but liking a simplistic game isn't the same as it being complex and I don't know why people keep insisting that it is.
It's ok guys. Your e-peens won't be any shorter if your favorite MMO has simplistic combat.
After watching the video, reading the entire thread, and having been in CB some time PvPing.... TONES without FATE.. (lame, but useful way to test PvP content I suppose.) All I can say Oper.... Go back to WoW and your Macro Spamming.. really. Thats all fanboy.
It's early days yet, and there will be many nerfs and buffs to come
If your build is relying heavily on stuns and mezzing, then perhaps there is cause for a "balance adjustment" in that area. Or perhaps the countering moves needs balancing.
With 524 skills/passives to choose from, I highly doubt tha FC have analysed all the possible combo's and balanced everything to a fine point. Even if their dev team consists of 300 people, that is no match for the creativity of a playerbase numbering 200K or 300K.
The mechanics of combat in EVE are simple too. But the complexity is derived from the fact that every skill has a perfect counter. The trick is deciding which counters you will use in your "deck" (ship loadout), because you cannot use ALL the counters at the same time. A simplistic example would be if you meet someone in combat that's packing lasers, and you're stacked up for projectile defence, you're toast. With the correct defence type, it becomes a fair fight.
So:
- Highest DPS build: found. Rotation is 2 buttons, rest is cds that can be spammed on cd, it's all in the choice of passives, very easy.
- Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.
Having lots of fun facerolling. I'll post the builds here next week although by then everyone will probably be using them.
Supposedly they will be implementlng a really bad version of Dimishing Returns (the rumor is 30 seconds between being CC'd)
I've found combat to be...pretty passive.
Combat in PvE boils down to :
Apply weakness skill
Exploit weakness skill
Finisher weapon A
Finisher weapon B
---
I spent most of my combat time just watching my builder points going up an down. I watch for the "Tells" (huge chalk outlines telling you the mob is doing a "super" attack) but that's about it.
For me at the moment, deep in the blue mountains my rotation is as follows.
1. Builderx5, occasionly need a dodge or aoe snare in this. This is your basic spam to build up resources.
2. Hit cooldown buff (I have 2x90sec cooldown buffs, one is a 25% damage boost, other is penetration boost). Can use both here, but I prefer to cycle them so I have one each fight.
3. Cast my 3 finishers (yes 3)
4. Finish off mob with builder, usually 2-3 more uses, sometimes need another finisher in there.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
Isn't there an ability in one the misc green outer ring trees that removes stuns and makes you immune for a few seconds? I saw that mentioned a few minutes ago on the official forums.
Edit: found it, costs 9 AP.
Sleight of Hand
Removes all active crowd control effects from you and makes you immune to further crowd control effects for 7 seconds.
I think a lot of people are missing the misc trees.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
So, you're having lots of fun ?
In that case, I have to assume that the combat is not boring after all.
Or does the combat only become boring once everyone has the FOTM builds and you can't faceroll anymore ?
I also had fun facerolling in AOC with my full gemmed polearm guardian who could one-shot anyone, constantly.
It was fun, but that lasted a week. So I'll probably get bored of what I'm doing now in a week. Until then, wheeeee.
Also, CC-immunity with sleight of hand is no issue. If someone pops it, fine, I can just stunlock them to death a few seconds later.
The main issue is that right now, there are only 2 options for best results, 1 for PVE and 1 for PVP, and both involve pressing 2 buttons.
And you believe it will always be like this, because the underlying system design is flawed ?
I actually am really enjoying the combat, i think part of it is that i have a good build (pistols/shortgun) not just in my weapon choices but in my use of skills. Its a very mobile combat build.
Havent found the games combat to be anywhere near as bad as some people are trying to make it out to be.
Ok i can see combat sucking if you make a gimp or lame build with poor selection of skills/passives....im thinking this is pretty much the source of the issues.
I played another games beta not too long ago, one whos combat is hailed as awesome....i spammed less buttons and theres was no system behind it...just spam my good damage skill...and that is in a game where everyones raving about combat...so it seems somethings a bit off with the terrible combat talk.
Mabey the animations dont involve enough over the top flahyness?
the combat is good, it's just that some people are bad at it and think it is the game problem....