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What Swtor needs to last 8 years like SWG did.

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Comments

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Dev’s share information with each other throughout the industry. SOE had the two biggest games with player housing, EQ2 & SWG. What did they share as lessons learned from this? Player housing is waste of time and money. The only use of player housing as Dev’s see it is an exploit to the limitations of player bank storage. Player housing is rarely used as a social hub. I don't have the data to back it, but I estimate the percentage of housing used on a regular basis as a social hub to be less than 1% (0.07%).

    The two factions have mirror classes This is to simplify balance but it is also to share animation resources across factions and get double use out of them. One class has an ability called “Death from Above”. This is a single use animation, it creates the illusion of difference and so its expense is tolerated.

    A factionless class scheme would mean wasted cutscenes. When you have a branching storyline, every branch that is not followed is seen as wasted development money. Image a divergent branch where where 80% of the player base goes option A and 20% go option B. What happens during development? Option B is seen as having a diminishing return on investment, so it’s cut to maximize profits.

    The only professions I didn’t try in SWG were politician, combat medic, & ranger. All 11 of my characters on the Tarquins server had been entertainers at one time. But I also know that the number one things players hated about SWG was the dependence on the utility classes, Doctors & Entertainers.

    The same holds for crafters. People like to hold SWG economy up as a shining example of complexity and player control. But players hate being at the mercy of other players for gear. That is why time and time again we see crafting diminished to a third tier below PvE and PvP.

     

    SWTOR is its own game, and making it like SWG is not the answer. SWG 2.0 has to be made on its own. What would I do? Add an options flag to replace VO quests with a single quest dialog with an accept / decline option to simplify questing. Many people have expressed a dissatisfaction with the VO side quests. If players could streamline with options what level or to what degree they have to sit through VO. Some players only want the main storyline, others want it all. Others still would rather a quest dialog that says “Kill 10 of X” press accept.

    General level design, the most used Republic cantina is also the smallest floor plan. Problems with group finding and PvP are on everyone's list so I will leave them off mine.


    I'm glad you said this. Most of the people that talk about SWG speak of how wonderful it is to have utility classes they have to depend on. I don't supposed that it would work if you could have the option to avoid it at a high cost of credits or time. could it?

    The alternative is that everything comes from an NPC vendor. Same item, same availability (100%), same outcome. I like to see variation in price, quality, availability. Without this, you effectively have only the market of the gatherers, and that is simply a luxury market because the state feeds you everything that's an essential from NPCs.

    If you want to have a real economy you need to have utility classes. The inconvenience you experienced was the realistic pull of the market letting you know that the NPCs didn't have your back and you have to fend for yourself.

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alders
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by ajax7

    I said it before launch and I'll say it again, they should have had EVERY class start off as neutral and then have faction choice based on decisions made in the storyline. It would have given so much more meaning to the choices you make and made alt rolling more fun. Not saying the storylines in game aren't fun, but from a design standpoint it would have been a whole lot simpler and more interesting. Then there wouldn't be any need to add trooper classes and smugglers to empire and bounty hunters and agents to the republic.

     

     

    Completely agree as i've also been saying this for a while.

    This is the problem that I see in most current releases..  The options we are givin as players is very very restrictive.. We do not have the freedom to make our own story, but are pushed into a pre-made story.. If this was a single player RPG game you play alone offline, similar to KoTOR or Dragon Age, I would be ok with it.. but this is suppose to be a MMORPG....  I miss the days that a player choice matters..

  • Sora2810Sora2810 New Columbia, PAPosts: 567Member

    is it sad that I believe sony should take over SWTOR... is it sad that I want NGE's.. I should just go crawl in a hole and die.

    Honestly, sandboxes survive longer. While they have fewer players, those players are invested; dedicated. Sandbox players are some of the most loyal players in every gaming community. They are what defined a niche. SWG survived because of the niche players who didn't leave when SWG turned rogue. SWTOR will have a niche as well.

    Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
    Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Original post.

    I like some of your ideas but by and large what kills SWTOR is lack of features/options. Your path is dictated to you at all turns, and every system in the game is super simple.

     

    By your analysis, player housing was a waste of time and money (because you didn't like it?) but there are just too many reports from players who said they loved their house and used it as a marketplace for me to go along with this.

    Developers are trying to change player behavior to meet their needs versus the other way around. Some supposed potatoheaded game developer was talking on these forums about players whining--which is profoundly ignorant as these are customers indicating where they will put their money. You can be a lazy ass penny pincher, but when your game goes sub-zero because it is a one-trick pony, you know what your kick back time bought you.

    People may have been annoyed at dependence upon other players, but the alternative is to have the game hand you every thing in trade for time. Same difference really, you just get it frm a vendor instead of a player. Why not give players some meaning to their crafting instead of it being the big waste of time add-on that it is in SWTOR. The NPC vendors can deliver better than what you can make, so why soak time and money into it except to outfit your alts? Even then, you could probably just go to the NPC vendors and save money/time.

    (because you didn't like it?)

    I loved Housing.  When ever there was a Blue Frog event on the PTS, I would roll an Architect and craft a house.  I feel confident when I say, I visited every player structure on my server.  I was not trying to speak badly about housing.  My intention was to reflect accurately on the opinion of the utility of housing as a game feature to developers.  I am trying to remove this cloud of mystery as to why developers have eliminated housing as a feature.

    but the alternative is to have the game hand you every thing in trade for time.

    If you watch other players you will notice a lack of looting.  The mind set is becoming one of the game will provide for me.  The quest system will give credits and items to handle all leveling needs.  This ties in with my recommendation for an option control over the amount and or type of Quest VO.  A vast number of players are feeling overwhelmed by the VO in swtor.  A site member here also has a signature image that drives home this point, “Spacebar is the swtor players go to key.”  During my time in swtor I met a player that was only doing the main character’s storyline quests.  The time, effort, and even the xp of the sideline or environmental quest were not worth the VO to him.  From what I am reading and seeing in game, players are streamlining their play style.  They are minimizing the time spent leveling.  This means doing away with crafting and resource collecting.  They see these as time and credit sinks, and not added value.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmoguy43
    Originally posted by Konfess

    .... But I also know that the number one things players hated about SWG was the dependence on the utility classes, Doctors & Entertainers.

    The same holds for crafters. People like to hold SWG economy up as a shining example of complexity and player control. But players hate being at the mercy of other players for gear. That is why time and time again we see crafting diminished to a third tier below PvE and PvP.

     ....


    I'm glad you said this. Most of the people that talk about SWG speak of how wonderful it is to have utility classes they have to depend on. I don't supposed that it would work if you could have the option to avoid it at a high cost of credits or time. could it?

    Could utility classes work if they avoid the high cost in credits and time?  That is what swtor tried to do with all the class buffs.  Did you notice how these buffs were not asked for or shared among players.

    In endgame group PvP I would see the buffs be applied.  But during leveling I would see players forget to reapply their buffs.  They couldn’t take the time.

    I am seeing and reading of players avoid the time and cost, by avoiding crafting and resource collecting.  They don’t even bother to maintain their companions, beyond the one they use.  And that one is outfitted by quest rewards alone.  Commendation items are their only goals.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Original post.

    I like some of your ideas but by and large what kills SWTOR is lack of features/options. Your path is dictated to you at all turns, and every system in the game is super simple.

     

    By your analysis, player housing was a waste of time and money (because you didn't like it?) but there are just too many reports from players who said they loved their house and used it as a marketplace for me to go along with this.

    Developers are trying to change player behavior to meet their needs versus the other way around. Some supposed potatoheaded game developer was talking on these forums about players whining--which is profoundly ignorant as these are customers indicating where they will put their money. You can be a lazy ass penny pincher, but when your game goes sub-zero because it is a one-trick pony, you know what your kick back time bought you.

    People may have been annoyed at dependence upon other players, but the alternative is to have the game hand you every thing in trade for time. Same difference really, you just get it frm a vendor instead of a player. Why not give players some meaning to their crafting instead of it being the big waste of time add-on that it is in SWTOR. The NPC vendors can deliver better than what you can make, so why soak time and money into it except to outfit your alts? Even then, you could probably just go to the NPC vendors and save money/time.

    (because you didn't like it?)

    I loved Housing.  When ever there was a Blue Frog event on the PTS, I would roll an Architect and craft a house.  I feel confident when I say, I visited every player structure on my server.  I was not trying to speak badly about housing.  My intention was to reflect accurately on the opinion of the utility of housing as a game feature to developers.  I am trying to remove this cloud of mystery as to why developers have eliminated housing as a feature.

    but the alternative is to have the game hand you every thing in trade for time.

    If you watch other players you will notice a lack of looting.  The mind set is becoming one of the game will provide for me.  The quest system will give credits and items to handle all leveling needs.  This ties in with my recommendation for an option control over the amount and or type of Quest VO.  A vast number of players are feeling overwhelmed by the VO in swtor.  A site member here also has a signature image that drives home this point, “Spacebar is the swtor players go to key.”  During my time in swtor I met a player that was only doing the main character’s storyline quests.  The time, effort, and even the xp of the sideline or environmental quest were not worth the VO to him.  From what I am reading and seeing in game, players are streamlining their play style.  They are minimizing the time spent leveling.  This means doing away with crafting and resource collecting.  They see these as time and credit sinks, and not added value.

    I agree. It seems like your take is a little more realistic, while mine is more idealistic. I think what you say about the developers is also true, but the correct answer to me seems like making something that is easy to learn/use but hard to master. The false dichotomy of simple fast versus complex slow is making games like a rotating doors experience for a lot of the players who enjoy multi-dimensional MMORPGs IMO.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by Konfess

    Original post.

    ...

    ...

    I agree. It seems like your take is a little more realistic, while mine is more idealistic. I think what you say about the developers is also true, but the correct answer to me seems like making something that is easy to learn/use but hard to master. The false dichotomy of simple fast versus complex slow is making games like a rotating doors experience for a lot of the players who enjoy multi-dimensional MMORPGs IMO.

    But what about all the post complaining about the grind?  The first question on a new games boards are all ways what is the end game like?  I personally feel that end game feels more like work than fun, so I roll alts and craft.  SWG had macro afk leveling off of static spawns.  I spent 7 months leveling my main off of hunting missions on Naboo in my second set of mabari armour and no doctor buffs.

    I am starting to feel the ideal mmo arrangement may be to through in everything and the kitchen sink.  A MMO that offers AFK macro leveling for those that want to rush to end game PvP, and a long lazy theme park story.  Or even a do your own thing sandbox, all in one hybrid.  Let the player chose which path they want.

    I know some will say that if you offer a short path everyone will take it, and no one will take the long way.  Some may, but I hope those that take the short path will return and take the long path later on to see what all the fuss was about.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    "That makes no sense what so fucking ever.

    LoTRO went F2P, and yet they have another expansion coming this fall. I believe that game is 5 yrs old now.

    Devs will keep producing content if it is profitable for them to do so. Whether it is this game, or a PB Cruncher online....if the money is there, the companies are willing to do what it takes to get it."

     

    Moaky, Lotro was a hybird of the old and new schools. It was started 5 years ago and did a lot of old school stuff like expansions you did not pay for. Then it got bought by Times Warner, now it has a cash shop and F2P. This is the Turbine model, it is unique to my knowledge.

    I was talking about what is going to be realeased from now on. MMO's which give you free expansions like Lotro have gone. The Turbine model shows you how things could work for them all. It is far from perfect in my eyes, but better than what we are getting now. But imagine trying to sell this to the corporates that now run gaming:

    'We want to do a load of free content, big regions, not just Warzone and skill tree updates.' It just won't sell because they think it won't sell, it could but they don't have the vision to see that. And will paid for box set expansions pay more? Yes they will thank you very much, so go away silly developer, I have my profit margin to think about.

    Thats the reality today.

  • thamighty213thamighty213 NewcastlePosts: 1,630Member

    An actual feeling of MMO and Community but that doesnt just apply to SWTOR it applies to every single themepark game out there.

     

    There is no interdependancy in themepark MMO's like there was in SWG,  that initial interdependancy forged a community from nothing that has lasted long past SWG has.

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thamighty213

    An actual feeling of MMO and Community but that doesnt just apply to SWTOR it applies to every single themepark game out there.

     

    There is no interdependancy in themepark MMO's like there was in SWG,  that initial interdependancy forged a community from nothing that has lasted long past SWG has.

    What sort of interdependencies are you talking about?  Trinity, where you need a Healer to keep your group alive?  Utility Classes, like SWG original Buff and Wound healers Doctors and Entertainers?  Crafters, where to craft anything elite, you needed optional components from other crafters and rare loot drops?

    I am a fan of each one of these ideas, but market analysis says that more players are not.  The simplest, hand holding, and on rails games today are the action and fps console games.  And fans of these games are driving the direction of MMORPGs.  Their number one cry is do away with the Trinity in favor of the auto healing found in easy action console titles.  Next is let me buff myself, also from hand holding action consoles.  Last is doing away with interdependence in crafting in favor of the on rails style of equipment progression found in console fps.

    Can you see it?  The worsening of MMORPGs is coming from the console communities.  Blame Uncharted, Far Cry, and Call of Duty for the dumbing down and easy ride that MMOs are becoming.  Look at these consoles and the fans of these titles as the enemy of MMOs today and tomorrow.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • BardusBardus Cornet, ALPosts: 460Member
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by thamighty213

    An actual feeling of MMO and Community but that doesnt just apply to SWTOR it applies to every single themepark game out there.

     

    There is no interdependancy in themepark MMO's like there was in SWG,  that initial interdependancy forged a community from nothing that has lasted long past SWG has.

    What sort of interdependencies are you talking about?  Trinity, where you need a Healer to keep your group alive?  Utility Classes, like SWG original Buff and Wound healers Doctors and Entertainers?  Crafters, where to craft anything elite, you needed optional components from other crafters and rare loot drops?

    I am a fan of each one of these ideas, but market analysis says that more players are not.  The simplest, hand holding, and on rails games today are the action and fps console games.  And fans of these games are driving the direction of MMORPGs.  Their number one cry is do away with the Trinity in favor of the auto healing found in easy action console titles.  Next is let me buff myself, also from hand holding action consoles.  Last is doing away with interdependence in crafting in favor of the on rails style of equipment progression found in console fps.

    Can you see it?  The worsening of MMORPGs is coming from the console communities.  Blame Uncharted, Far Cry, and Call of Duty for the dumbing down and easy ride that MMOs are becoming.  Look at these consoles and the fans of these titles as the enemy of MMOs today and tomorrow.


    Your leaving something out. That market analysis that says no interdependency past holy trinity is the same market analysis that says keep making ever more dumbing down WOW clones catering to 'casuals'. The market analysis has been working out real well hasn't it?

    image

  • RingbusRingbus None, CAPosts: 36Member
    Originally posted by Konfess


    Can you see it?  The worsening of MMORPGs is coming from the console communities.  Blame Uncharted, Far Cry, and Call of Duty for the dumbing down and easy ride that MMOs are becoming.  Look at these consoles and the fans of these titles as the enemy of MMOs today and tomorrow.

    WTF???

     

  • hikaru77hikaru77 buenos airesPosts: 1,035Member Uncommon

    1. More Endgame OPvP. Is coming.

    2. Regular content Updates, i think we wont have any problem with that.

    3. A real Space Combat game, They have something called ¨space combat secret Proyect¨, also coming this year. 

    4. Listen the community feedback. 

     

     

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bardus
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by thamighty213

    An actual feeling of MMO and Community but that doesnt just apply to SWTOR it applies to every single themepark game out there.

     

    There is no interdependancy in themepark MMO's like there was in SWG,  that initial interdependancy forged a community from nothing that has lasted long past SWG has.

    ...

     Can you see it?  The worsening of MMORPGs is coming from the console communities.  Blame Uncharted, Far Cry, and Call of Duty for the dumbing down and easy ride that MMOs are becoming.  Look at these consoles and the fans of these titles as the enemy of MMOs today and tomorrow.


    Your leaving something out. That market analysis that says no interdependency past holy trinity is the same market analysis that says keep making ever more dumbing down WOW clones catering to 'casuals'. The market analysis has been working out real well hasn't it?

    If by “dumbing down WOW for ‘casuals’”, you mean action and fps console fans, then I agree.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    They already have another SW MMO in the works. I don't give this steaming pile of crap 1 more year before going F2P. Then I give it another 3 years tops.

     

    I miss the 80's when games were fun and challenging. They didn't go off some bullshit formula, and you NEVER beat a game in 4-6 hours after buying it.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    They already have another SW MMO in the works. I don't give this steaming pile of crap 1 more year before going F2P. Then I give it another 3 years tops.

     

    I miss the 80's when games were fun and challenging. They didn't go off some bullshit formula, and you NEVER beat a game in 4-6 hours after buying it.

    what?

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • ohiokidohiokid Stow, OHPosts: 9Member

    They need to sell it to a company with a clue. The PVP is so non competitive that is boring at best. Win or lose its not much fun. You either stand there and crush your opponents or you get crushed and run back over and over. No real stategy, just a slaughterfest. So many bugs and inconsistancies it is hard to figure out what is happening at times. Never played a game were targetting is so problematic. Very frustrating to say the least. ALL in ALL really bad class design and game play. It needs a lot of work and looking at the updates so far the devs are even trying.

    As people get a couple toons to 50 they will be moving on to other games. Eventually the new stream of players will dry up and this game will die just like Galaxies.

    It is so much like Galaxies NGE version when it comes to combat that it is scary. Did they hire Smeadly as a consultant?

  • PelaajaPelaaja HevonkuusiPosts: 697Member
    Originally posted by hikaru77

    1. More Endgame OPvP. Is coming.

    2. Regular content Updates, i think we wont have any problem with that.

    3. A real Space Combat game, They have something called ¨space combat secret Proyect¨, also coming this year. 

    4. Listen the community feedback. 

    Lovely how you can keep your hopes up for the title, when almost no one else does.

    Thumbs up for you and remember, Internet anonymity is your friend when this pile of crap has dried up.

    image

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by Ringbus
    Originally posted by Konfess


    Can you see it?  The worsening of MMORPGs is coming from the console communities.  Blame Uncharted, Far Cry, and Call of Duty for the dumbing down and easy ride that MMOs are becoming.  Look at these consoles and the fans of these titles as the enemy of MMOs today and tomorrow.

    WTF??

    Seriously.

    More MMOs should take a note from Far Cry 2's sandboxy nature. That game was amazing.

     

    ~On-topic

    The only thing SWToR needs to last another 8 years is for EA to invest in it's own lineup for once. They knew damned well they were gonna back off and leave this game with a skeleton crew the moment it launched, and now content updates are coming in a slow trickle - and the game engine is well known for being able to update content with ease - there is no excuse for how things are going, whatsover. Over time, the game *could* be the most content/option laden game on the market, but it won't, because EA is the last group you want in charge of any IP.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • PelaajaPelaaja HevonkuusiPosts: 697Member
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by Ringbus
    Originally posted by Konfess


    Can you see it?  The worsening of MMORPGs is coming from the console communities.  Blame Uncharted, Far Cry, and Call of Duty for the dumbing down and easy ride that MMOs are becoming.  Look at these consoles and the fans of these titles as the enemy of MMOs today and tomorrow.

    WTF??

    Seriously.

    More MMOs should take a note from Far Cry 2's sandboxy nature. That game was amazing.

     

    ~On-topic

    The only thing SWToR needs to last another 8 years is for EA to invest in it's own lineup for once. They knew damned well they were gonna back off and leave this game with a skeleton crew the moment it launched, and now content updates are coming in a slow trickle - and the game engine is well known for being able to update content with ease - there is no excuse for how things are going, whatsover. Over time, the game *could* be the most content/option laden game on the market, but it won't, because EA is the last group you want in charge of any IP.

    Wrong, the latter Hero-engine versions are able to do that. The one they've severed doesn't seem to be. An praying for EA to invest anything after their huge initial invest into a game in lifesupport is a fools hope.

    Next thing EA will do with SW:ToR is pull the plug, so be careful what you hope for...

    image

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Yeah, I'm sure that's what they have probably been telling you... though I remember the team licensing the engline saying it's been the case since it's been up for sale to begin with.

    I wouldn't take anything EA tells you seriously, ever.

    ~but I do agree EA is more likely to pull the plug than convert it to F2P or something... though, they will convince 50% of their buyers (and investors) to never deal in their MMOs ever again.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • IronBladeIronBlade mmo's, MSPosts: 10Member

    What Swtor needs:

    1. Designers who can create content that is unique and original- Nobody wants to play a dumbed down WoW clone with very little originality beyond the generic voice overs.

     

    2. PvP that is about PvP and strategy rather than groups standing around doing nothing at nodes.

     

    3. PvE content that is actually challenging. 

     

    4. A comunnity team with brains.

     

    This game seems to be run by mmo noobs and junior programmers who don't have a clue as how to keep subs and grow the game.  It is perhaps the worst job I have seen a design team do in over a decade of playing mmo's. They aretotally clueless and actually promote players to quit with hairbrained systems.

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