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PVP is actually the core of any REAL mmorpg

bishboshbishbosh SydneyPosts: 388Member

MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.

in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.

in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.

for example

grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50   fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.

 

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Comments

  • AdoniAdoni Tucson, AZPosts: 347Member Uncommon

    I'm going disagree and leave it at that.

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  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 811Member Uncommon

    Unequivocally incorrect.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • TrionicusTrionicus Fort Lauderdale, FLPosts: 497Member

    Isn't that like real life?

  • dethlorddethlord burnaby, BCPosts: 16Member

    true statement is TRUE!

    Deth to you ALL!

  • NilenyaNilenya TMIPosts: 364Member Uncommon

    OK, - Ive been doing it wrong for 12 years. Damnit :(

  • ZillenZillen BrisbanePosts: 141Member


    Originally posted by bishbosh
    MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.for examplegrinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50   fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer. 

    I can see your logic, but I don't agree with the statement you've produced from it. By your theory, any action I make in game that might ever affect another player is a form of PvP...making PvP the heart of all "real" MMORPGs?

    That's the equivalent of taking a dump on the floor of a shopping centre IRL and claiming that you've interacted with every person who have stared at, complained about or attempted to clean up said dump. Its the equivalent of saying that if I shoot a bird, and that bird lands in a river, and is washed downstream until it hits a little swimming toddler in the face, that you've smacked that child in the face with a wet rotting pigeon yourself.

    You've gone and twisted Newton's Laws of Reaction out of context, and fitted it to MMOs. Just because each reaction has an equal, opposite reaction, doesn't mean that you can personally account for every next logical step in its chain of events. You were simply the catalyst for the chain to BEGIN.

    Killing a boar and leaving the area might cause the next player to swear at his guild mates due to his frustration at your theft of his "rightful kill". But this does not mean you interacted with any of them. You interacted with an NPC.

    Causing a change in economic events by altering the price of "boar hides" does not mean you've interacted with anyone. You've simply put up something for 'x' amount of money, and someone in the world has clicked on a faceless price tag to buy said hide. You didn't form a relationship, you didn't engage them in combat, and you certainly didn't cause any persistent change, such as can be seen in EVE or even WoW's Wintergrasp on a crappier scale.

    All you did, and all they did, was interact with a string of NPC code, which you delayed the spawn of. All you did was change the percentile price so that another person could click on one of a million coded emotionless buttons with slightly less of an advantage.

    That's not PvP. Killing another player is PvP. Persistently changing the state of the game world (e.g. Capturing territory, destroying player-built structures) is PvP. Directly going up to other people and taking price offers for an item is PvP. What you are stating is not.

    Not being offensive, just trying to build a logical framework for my opinion. The miniscule digital implications of your actions do not, by my definitions, count as player interactions. Real, human interaction IS the heart of real MMORPGs, but not in the way you might think.

    image
    I'm really sick of the whole "There's a massive fanbase for X", or "Y would be a WoW-killer if it just had a chance".

    There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase.

    There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    PVP=/=player interaction. pvp relates to COMBAT and is a subset of player interactions. so no, you can't expand pvp to include any sort of interaction between players.

    this is a problem when shorthand terms are used by an in group who all knows what they intend to say, and then are interpreted literally or broadly by someone else.

     

  • TerronteTerronte Cedar Rapids, IAPosts: 321Member

    I think this would only apply in a game with finite resources. In most modern games you kill a boar a new one spawns X seconds later having little or no impact on anyone else in the game.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I'm not sure you're argument makes sense, the way you've phrased it.

    Instead of saying that PvP is the core of any REAL MMORPG, it sounds like what you're saying is that all player interactions in an MMORPG are aspects of PvP or they can be attributed to the competitive aspects of player interactions.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Terronte
    I think this would only apply in a game with finite resources. In most modern games you kill a boar a new one spawns X seconds later having little or no impact on anyone else in the game.

    Even when there are infinite resources, there can still be an element of competition. Those resources, while infinite are not constantly available. There's also what happens with the resources afterwards. Everyone can collect resources, but who can collect the most resources and then control the price of that resource on the auction house or player run market?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    PvE is the core. PvP can be part of PvE especially when there are factions involved.

    Seems many people who ask for PvP really want an FPS type of experience. MMO's will not give that.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • sonoggisonoggi tdot, ONPosts: 1,119Member

    fully agreed with OP. ANet, HiRez and CCP are the only MMO companies that have the right idea. first step is to develop and balance the pvp, around which the PVE is built.

    the inherent flaw of any PVE-centric game is that AI is dumb ultimately. once you master all the PVE scenarios, there's simply nothing else left to do, and if PVP is a mess then you might as well quit.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,988Member Uncommon

    All PVP is a competition between players, however all competition between players is not PVP.

    You can't take accepted definitions for words/concepts and twist them into something else because there is a slight resemblence to another.

    Some folks have argued that WOW is a sandbox style game.  Those folks are wrong, regardless of any sort of comparision they might attempt to make between it and a title that is generally accepted to be one.

    Even in your example, the act of killing boars is entirely a PVE affair, unless of course you are somehow kill stealing from another player and preventing him from gathering them.

    Now sure, you are trying to argue that when you sell the hides its PVP but its just not so, by any common acceptance of the concept.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,713Member Uncommon

    Complete nonsense.

    The core of RPG systems since the dawn of RPGs has been, and will always be PVE.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon

    Im a PvP player, and I still disagree with this statement. 

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • -Zeno--Zeno- Zion, TNPosts: 1,298Member Common

    I have always said PVP = MMO.  If you don't have any player competition then you are playing a single player game.

    The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Canton, ILPosts: 163Member

    I disagree.  PVE is king.

    Look at any mmo server list for proof.  there are always more pve servers.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by bishbosh

    MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.

    in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.

    in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.

    for example

    grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50   fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.

     

    I'll take your post to the next level and say that every mmorpg if it is truly RPG should involve pvp since the roles of various races will come into conflict with other races who might not see eye to eye.  But that's just common sense and fantasy novels, oh and real history, and the Bible, and - never mind. 

     

    However, there are many many players who hate combatting real life players.  They would prefer to fight a computer program and call that something meaningful.  Reason being, is that if a person dies to an NPC or pixel enemy, they can blame the machine.  If they lose to a player, they might feel inadequate as a human being (sadly).  But that's another argument.

     

    So while killing 50 boars might provide less boars for another player, and result in a form of pvp, the reality is that your nation, and let's say the people of Widgetlandia, will naturally have enemies that want all of your boars, and your territory.  Shamefully, most developers don't know what I am talking about, and prefer to put a pretty flag for everyone to run to and fro with :)

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  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member

    The fact is that in a mmo with a persistent single world eviroment your actions in the world will effect other players those you are intereacting with them. Yet this has more to do with pve fueling pvp in a persistent non-instanced mmo game, since when you killed those boars for examples, the up coming players very well could opt to either group up or to fight for the right to kill the respawning supply of boar. Also by making the hides of the boars less valueable by creating a higher supply of them in the marketplace, you dimish the amount of desire for a player to fight another player to gain ownership of the hide of the mob, but yet when that supply of hides that the player put into the market is exhuasted then it would lead to more pvp fghting as players seek to fill the demand that would/could fallow afterwards. As such i would say it would be more accurate that in this style of mmo pve and pvp would both feed off each other, or rather fuel each other more than one or the other being a true core part of the game.

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member

    By icreasing the supply of something, such as boar hides, you have aided those who need that something. That is cooperative play.

     

    In every game I have played those boars respawn pretty quickly, specifically to reduce the impact of one player's farming on another.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,649Member Uncommon

    PVP and player interaction are not one in the same. PVP is a subset of player interaction. You also have co-operative/collaborative and social interaction. ATITD is an example of co-operative/collaborative being the primary player interaction, and Furcadia is an example of socializing being the primary player interaction. PVP can be the core of an MMO, but it definitely not the only core, even in virtual worlds that focus on player interaction. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BeilochBeiloch Sun City, CAPosts: 74Member

    "PVP is actually the core of any REAL mmorpg"

    No.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member

    You forgot to write It's my Opinion.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • EmrendilEmrendil TirionPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Complete nonsense.

    The core of RPG systems since the dawn of RPGs has been, and will always be PVE.

     

    Yep. PvP is only a part of MMORPG genre, not the core.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Adoni

    I'm going disagree and leave it at that.

    Seems much too broad a leap of faith to be agreed with, just on general principle.

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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