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Why the Combat is Poorly Designed (With Video Included)

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  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

    Yeah.

    The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

    I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

    GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

     

    You do realise this is not how the average person plays a game? 

    Take me for instance, I am at work, working, and posting here during lunch/tea breaks, by the time I get home and sat infront of the computer it is 8pm, I will then play a game for a few hours, probably TSW this weekend and next week.

    I will not spend any time at all with a spreadsheet working out the most efficient way to kill a player or certain mob, with a certain combination of abilities.

    It's great that you have the time to devote to theorycrafting the hell out of the game but the majority of people don't do this. If you are approaching games in this way you should try to find a game that caters to your style rather than constantly ragging on games like these that are clearly for "slow" people as you so eloquently put it a few pages ago.

    image
  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by SlickShoes
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

    Yeah.

    The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

    I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

    GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

     

    You do realise this is not how the average person plays a game? 

    Take me for instance, I am at work, working, and posting here during lunch/tea breaks, by the time I get home and sat infront of the computer it is 8pm, I will then play a game for a few hours, probably TSW this weekend and next week.

    I will not spend any time at all with a spreadsheet working out the most efficient way to kill a player or certain mob, with a certain combination of abilities.

    It's great that you have the time to devote to theorycrafting the hell out of the game but the majority of people don't do this. If you are approaching games in this way you should try to find a game that caters to your style rather than constantly ragging on games like these that are clearly for "slow" people as you so eloquently put it a few pages ago.

    I'm at work too, in between mails and phone calls and well, work stuff, I tab to the forums, tab to my spreadsheets, etc.

    It doesn't take hours to work out this stuff, an hour or two total, tops. I've played games of Risk that have lasted longer.

    image

  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

    Yeah.

    The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

    I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

    GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

     

    such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

    And yet I have so much fun :)

    Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

    Unfortunatly  proof of poorly desighned combat is video of  facerolling undergeared people who just starting the game. This proof nothing. 

    Save your money or better give them to charity.

     

    Edited.

     

     

    <a href="http://www.danasoft.com"><img src="http://www.danasoft.com/sig/499105419258.jpg"; border="0"></a><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;"><p>Sign by Danasoft - <a href="http://www.danasoft.com">For Backgrounds and Layouts</a></p></div>

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    Because you say they don't work they don't? I saw this same attitude in Rift. I put together tons of soul combo builds and wrote guides about them and they were not the FOTM builds yet guess what? they worked great and were a ton of fun. You don't have ot min/max everything to be competative to have fun in Rift and you don't in this game. If all you do is look at it like that then I guess you could call it shallow but I don't and enjoy putting together builds others don't think of and prove to people like you I can destroy them in PVP with my builds. But like I said all these games will have OP builds till things get balanced out a bit just depends how fell funcom handles this.

    So you're working out builds... and it makes you happy that they "destroy others in PVP"

    How is that different from what I'm doing? Oh wait, it's not!

    Does that mean you share my "sad and shallow look you have on games."

    image

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

    Yeah.

    The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

    I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

    GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

     

    such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

    And yet I have so much fun :)

    Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

    Unfortunatly your proof of poorly desighned combat is video of you facerolling undergeared people who just starting the game. This proof nothing. "Look at me!!! i can faceroll newbies!!! and its fun" WTF

    Save your money or better give them to charity.

     

     

     

    woah dude, you appear to have blown a fuse.

    I didn't post the original video. Not sure who you were replying to there.

    image

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    Because you say they don't work they don't? I saw this same attitude in Rift. I put together tons of soul combo builds and wrote guides about them and they were not the FOTM builds yet guess what? they worked great and were a ton of fun. You don't have ot min/max everything to be competative to have fun in Rift and you don't in this game. If all you do is look at it like that then I guess you could call it shallow but I don't and enjoy putting together builds others don't think of and prove to people like you I can destroy them in PVP with my builds. But like I said all these games will have OP builds till things get balanced out a bit just depends how fell funcom handles this.

    So you're working out builds... and it makes you happy that they "destroy others in PVP"

    How is that different from what I'm doing? Oh wait, it's not!

    Does that mean you share my "sad and shallow look you have on games."

    you are saying everyone will have the same builds because you can max damage on a certain build.. I'm saying you have a ton of other options out there to be competative and enjoy the game.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

    Yeah.

    The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

    I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

    GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

     

    such a sad and shallow look you have on games.

    And yet I have so much fun :)

    Or are you saying your way of having fun is the only way? 

    Unfortunatly your proof of poorly desighned combat is video of you facerolling undergeared people who just starting the game. This proof nothing. "Look at me!!! i can faceroll newbies!!! and its fun" WTF

    Save your money or better give them to charity.

     

     

     

    woah dude, you appear to have blown a fuse.

    I didn't post the original video. Not sure who you were replying to there.

     

    Ok its not you. my bad. But still 

    Save your money or better give them to charity. 

    <a href="http://www.danasoft.com"><img src="http://www.danasoft.com/sig/499105419258.jpg"; border="0"></a><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;"><p>Sign by Danasoft - <a href="http://www.danasoft.com">For Backgrounds and Layouts</a></p></div>

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    Because you say they don't work they don't? I saw this same attitude in Rift. I put together tons of soul combo builds and wrote guides about them and they were not the FOTM builds yet guess what? they worked great and were a ton of fun. You don't have ot min/max everything to be competative to have fun in Rift and you don't in this game. If all you do is look at it like that then I guess you could call it shallow but I don't and enjoy putting together builds others don't think of and prove to people like you I can destroy them in PVP with my builds. But like I said all these games will have OP builds till things get balanced out a bit just depends how fell funcom handles this.

    So you're working out builds... and it makes you happy that they "destroy others in PVP"

    How is that different from what I'm doing? Oh wait, it's not!

    Does that mean you share my "sad and shallow look you have on games."

    you are saying everyone will have the same builds because you can max damage on a certain build.. I'm saying you have a ton of other options out there to be competative and enjoy the game.

    Why would you think my build isn't fun? Is something more fun because it's not the best solution? Is it more fun if less people use it?

    Are you trying as hard to be a special unique snowflake as I am trying to be a special optimal snowflake?

    At least I'm doing what the game is telling me to do. I'm not sure what you're doing other than making others think you're special because you don't use the same 1-7 buttons as everyone else.

    image

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
     

    Because you say they don't work they don't? I saw this same attitude in Rift. I put together tons of soul combo builds and wrote guides about them and they were not the FOTM builds yet guess what? they worked great and were a ton of fun. You don't have ot min/max everything to be competative to have fun in Rift and you don't in this game. If all you do is look at it like that then I guess you could call it shallow but I don't and enjoy putting together builds others don't think of and prove to people like you I can destroy them in PVP with my builds. But like I said all these games will have OP builds till things get balanced out a bit just depends how fell funcom handles this.

    So you're working out builds... and it makes you happy that they "destroy others in PVP"

    How is that different from what I'm doing? Oh wait, it's not!

    Does that mean you share my "sad and shallow look you have on games."

    you are saying everyone will have the same builds because you can max damage on a certain build.. I'm saying you have a ton of other options out there to be competative and enjoy the game.

    Why would you think my build isn't fun? Is something more fun because it's not the best solution? Is it more fun if less people use it?

    Are you trying as hard to be a special unique snowflake as I am trying to be a special optimal snowflake?

    At least I'm doing what the game is telling me to do. I'm not sure what you're doing other than making others think you're special because you don't use the same 1-7 buttons as everyone else.

    you still don't get it.. guess you never well... no point in arguing with someone with such a closed mind on things... you continually argue the game is shallow and lacks depth because you can find an "optimal build" yet there are many many builds you can put tgoether and be competative.. That's the point.. in many MMOs you are stuck with only a handful of ways to change your skills and customize your toon. In this one you are never locked down in a role you have the freedom to setup as many decks as you please. Just because your deck works well agains decks xyz doesn't mean it will faceroll decks abc. Fun of the system is building a good variety of decks and finding passives that work in conjuction with the skills you layed out. It offers a ton more options than any other basic  3 talent tree crap we see in many games out there. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • moreblahblahmoreblahblah privatePosts: 58Member
    Originally posted by Kykyryz-a
    Originally posted by moreblahblah
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     

     

    You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.

    You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all.  So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.

    Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.

    You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.

    If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?

     

     

    So 1 more person who knows everythg :)   saying OP got TOp gear AND he  can't  get  HIM below 70%  

    PLS  moreblahblah  post video with your char  1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot"   or really try to argue about  topic here "complex of fight in TSW"  

    you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and  only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons.  nothg else.   you dont need any tactic you dont need  cc.

    Yes I know everything, the op has no idea how to play he is just running around killing noobies. I know what gear combination will give that ammount of health and that amount of pen/crit. I would even go so far as to say this is a old video before the pen issue was resolved about 10 days ago. I play a healer and there is no way he could do jack to me with that build. He is just running around killing noobies while wearing top end gear.

    His whole post is just one big lie. He show a few fight where he pawns a few noobies, total cherry picking of the video footage. If he was honest he would of opened his character sheet and shown his stats and gear but being the kind of person he is he cannot do that because it would show him to be the dishonest person he is. Have fun in your zerg everything boring as hell GW2,[mod edit]

  • BlindchanceBlindchance WhywouldyouliketoknowPosts: 1,081Member

    TSW combat doesn't compare to its main competitor GW2.

    From my experience combat feels bland especially if you compare it to vivid, fluid combat animations GW2. My favourite video shows a duel between a warrior and a guardian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO6tyJ8oG6E

    Freedom of choice between 500 skills sound nice, but is restricted by the number of sensible synergy combinations between them. Furthermore TSW just lack originality, many of them are copies of each other in terms of what they do, how they look like and all is different is the passive synergy connections. A major mistake on Funcom side, the combat is simply not fun. On other hand from I have seen GW2 skills are class and weapon restricted but feel different and almost every of them serves different purpose. Not to mention how active dodge is usable at least 3 times as often as TSW's and active block, knockback ( basically a lot of mobility skills ) make the combat feel much more dynamic and exciting.

     

    [mod edit]

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,125Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by moreblahblah
    Originally posted by Kykyryz-a
    Originally posted by moreblahblah
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     

     

    You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.

    You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all.  So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.

    Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.

    You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.

    If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?

     

     

    So 1 more person who knows everythg :)   saying OP got TOp gear AND he  can't  get  HIM below 70%  

    PLS  moreblahblah  post video with your char  1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot"   or really try to argue about  topic here "complex of fight in TSW"  

    you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and  only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons.  nothg else.   you dont need any tactic you dont need  cc.

    Yes I know everything, the op has no idea how to play he is just running around killing noobies. I know what gear combination will give that ammount of health and that amount of pen/crit. I would even go so far as to say this is a old video before the pen issue was resolved about 10 days ago. I play a healer and there is no way he could do jack to me with that build. He is just running around killing noobies while wearing top end gear.

    His whole post is just one big lie. He show a few fight where he pawns a few noobies, total cherry picking of the video footage. If he was honest he would of opened his character sheet and shown his stats and gear but being the kind of person he is he cannot do that because it would show him to be the dishonest person he is. [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

     

    I would say in the long run GW2 will survive a lot longer then secret world, just for it, swtor based most of his game in quests and its what its now

     

    spam 1 or 2 skills to build resources then use it to kill is the basic of the game, but the fun fact most of time is working together with passives to scale or burst damage, also some skills changed and/or just bugged on the last BTW

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • AmanaAmana New York, NYPosts: 2,544Moderator Uncommon

    Please remember to stick to the topic and not derail the thread with talk of GW2. Examples are okay but if the main point/content of your post isn't about TSW, it should be.

    To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Just so you guys know, I now have a spreadsheet with all the abilities, the effects they cause/require, how much damage they do, what the passives to do them, resource costs, cast times, ST vs AOE, frenzy  or chain or etc etc etc

    Yeah.

    The design of TSW combat is very simplistic, there's really not much depth in there at all.

    I'm working out the best damage rotation, and thus the best spec, right now.

    GL to all those who think the magical wheel is varied and complex and some sort of unsolvable mystery... lol

     

    No no, it's like people have said, the only way to figure out which is the most powerful is to try each of the "six million" builds yourself.

    /sarcasm

    Meta-gaming can be more interesting than the actual game itself, and the same computers that allow us to play the game can measure the game far faster than a person can (as you higlighted yourself).

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
    Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  • DreddeDredde HaugesundPosts: 28Member

    Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.

    Its much easier to be a top dps in WoW, lotro, AoC ect. as it takes more from the player to stand out here. Not to be good, but to be great.

    One small exp (there are loads of them): You got one passive (can have multiple making it even harder) that stacks 4 buffs on you then next hit is guaranted pen or crit. When it procs to 4 you just dont have one skill thats always best, like the other games which you hit every proc. You have to look at how many res you have build on each weapon, this to see if skill 1,2 or 3 is the best to use, also if you have to few to use the finisher and better be of with starter. Along with elite skill, and often more then CD abi. So when you get different procs you will have 4-5 skills (or more depends on skills you choose) that is best to use depending on how many res you got on each weapon, seeing this keeping track of it and always using the right one depending on all the different procs you get from passives takes alot more skill then all the other mentioned mmos you compared the combat to. You dont have many seconds to deside either, this will keep the "great" ones from the "good/normal" ones.

    In most mmos you just learn a easy rotation, look at debuffs on targets (also in TSW), and have designated skills to use on procs. Not to be harsh on you, but you wont be one of the great dps in here.
     

  • KrytycalKrytycal Miami, FLPosts: 520Member


    Originally posted by Dredde Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.

    The passives somewhat add a layer of complexity, but that's only because the game is new. Once people start coming up with the best synergies, there will be just a handful of "top builds" which everyone who cares about effectiveness will be using.
     
    At any rate, the video somehow made it to the closed beta forums. As I imagined, a lot of forum badasses there too so I decided to log in in-game last night with a largely different blade/chaos build (different synergies and different 2-button smash rotation, only used chaos mostly for evasion). No footage, sorry. Although one of the guys I met in-game had this to say:


    OK I just got facerolled by him I would say roughly a dozen times. Now I won't say I'm the best player in the world (really slow to react and I lag a lot on my 32-bit system) but my build usually makes up the difference in button mashing and I actually win most of my 1v1 fights so in no way am I a lowbie in the pure sense.

    I was using my best build. I rarely lose 1v1 with this build (roughly 1 in 20 losses.) This is it:

    http://forums-beta.darkdaysarecoming...6&postcount=25

    Not even close. What struck me was his use of interrupts. I think you guys have done a good job of reconstructing his possible passives. By the time i could act I was down half my hp with tank armor on. For the last few fights I replaced Chaotic Pull with Smoke and Mirrors and Paradigm Shift with Perseverance and so I was literally popping three defensive actives and still getting my fat behind handed to me. He did use some form of blade finisher on me though so he may have amended his Chaos/Fists to Chaos/Blades.

    I agree he has found some great synergies. But I have to say hindering and in general mezzing seems a bit OP at present imo -- especially since the counters seem rather situational. Nevertheless got pwned fair and square.



    This too is a very good build and, as you say Scribe, not all that different from mine. I too can usually hold off multiple enemies in gank situations, and since I chose to play Dragon in beta -- going Templar in live unless I hate the people I play with -- I am in a LOT of gank situations. Basically, they are both very solid defensive builds made to withstand a variety of situations in PvP.

    His, however, is an out and out assassination build. What is disturbing is how easily he was able to achieve his goal (depressingly, his original assertion of mashing just two buttons might, in the end, be accurate, though the underlying synergies are complex). And as is usual in games like this (Magic: TG for example) specific decks always trump general purpose decks.

    The difference here, unlike Magic, is that there is no way (IMO) to build a **reliable** counter to a deck like his in this game. Even if it is completely reactive (meaning it is useless in all other situations except when facing off with Critical) you will not be guaranteed success even 50% of the time because counter-stun/mezzing simply sucks compared to stun/mezzing. A good player like him can chain mezz an opponent for a good ten (maybe longer even) seconds while unloading all his alphas. By the time you can react you are down to half (maybe less) your hp and fighting an uphill battle where you have to pop your defensives immediately just to stay alive a bit longer while he can use his tactically until his alphas come back off CD. Let's say you pop a counter-mezz (usually an elite ability and one that lasts for what, 6-8 seconds?) he can just wait till you're through and go through the rest of his chain-mezzing rotation. No doubt he will have plenty left in his toolbag I'm sure. And if you devote your one elite to counter-mezzing...well then your damage and utility go right out the window.

    In short: the only build that can stand a chance against one like his in a 1v1 situation is...basically his build. Which essentially means that his original thesis -- the combat in this game is overtly simplistic -- might be accurate, but not in the way he thinks. He was pointing out that the gameplay (i.e. button mashing just two buttons) is simple. That may or may not be so. What is more disturbing to me, however, is that the **design** of the ability system is at its core simplistic in that it rewards a player for choosing a handful of OP mezz-inducing abilities exclusively, while neglecting (justifiably in this case) 99% of the skill wheel.

    To those of us who avoided PvP in other MMOs (and I'm not referring to WoW specifically since I am one of the few to have never played it) because of this precise reason -- mezzing and the nerd-rage it induces as you stare at your toon being beaten to a fine paste while you beat impotently on your keyboard -- this is very bad news.


  • AbangyarudoAbangyarudo Prescott Valley, AZPosts: 156Member

    Just judging from the initial dash attack damage it was people who were undergeared for pvp and didn't understand the basis for combat systems. I loved how someone showed a gw2 duel which was mostly the same as TSW except that he was using the dash and roll every 5 secs. If people are using only 2 buttons to play then they are playing wrong and watching the video the guy was using alot more skills then the 2 suggested. 

    Example most players did not achieve any state change against him that means their build was not meant to state change. Most players were using melee and would choke changing to ranged. etc etc 

  • tarestares York, PAPosts: 381Member
    Originally posted by Abangyarudo

    Just judging from the initial dash attack damage it was people who were undergeared for pvp and didn't understand the basis for combat systems. I loved how someone showed a gw2 duel which was mostly the same as TSW except that he was using the dash and roll every 5 secs. If people are using only 2 buttons to play then they are playing wrong and watching the video the guy was using alot more skills then the 2 suggested. 

    Example most players did not achieve any state change against him that means their build was not meant to state change. Most players were using melee and would choke changing to ranged. etc etc 

    So you are saying the closed beta testers who are given level 10 gear that gives less HPs than anyone in that video, the SP to use that gear, and every skill in the game have an issue with spamming a builder and then when the count is 5 they can use a finisher.  Two buttons isn't that complex, maybe throw in a stun or two.

    That GW2 video demos strategy, tactics, what looks to be a good combat system, skill elements such as blocking or dodging, much more diverse skillsets/abilities than any TSW build. There are 3 fight clubs in TSW so where are the duel videos that showcase how TSW combat is comparable?

    Link some awesome TSW PvP videos as I want to see where my critisism of TSW's combat is wrong. I was looking through the beta vids on youtube and are many two button superheros.

  • mderinmderin Cityin, OHPosts: 1Member
    Originally posted by Dredde

    Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.

     

    The passives don't make TSW's combat gameplay complex. While the passive synergies and the large and accessible skill wheel give the illusion of "complexity", all they actually add is a needle in the haystack problem. You have few slots but many abilities to choose from, and your job is to find the few combinations of abilities that amount to something useful. Once you find those, the problem is solved and you are left with very little.

    This is akin to tic-tac-toe. On the surface it seems like there is some complexity because of the number of possible variations of moves you can take. Due to illusion countless people play various permutations of the game and enjoy it. There are, however, only two optimal strategies that force a never-lose situation. Most people never become aware of this because they don't perform that needle in the haystack search to find those moves, but the reality is the game is extremely simple, quickly solvable, and in no way complex once you do so.

    The bottom line is that TSW has extremely simple mechanics underlying a very large number of abilities that work very similar to one another across the entire skill wheel. There's nothing wrong with liking that, and Greyhooff never said there was (actually he explicitly stated the exact opposite at one point in the thread), but liking a simplistic game isn't the same as it being complex and I don't know why people keep insisting that it is.

    It's ok guys. Your e-peens won't be any shorter if your favorite MMO has simplistic combat.

  • itsneoitsneo HAMILTON, ONPosts: 18Member

    After watching the video, reading the entire thread, and having been in CB some time PvPing.... TONES  without FATE.. (lame, but useful way to test PvP content I suppose.)  All I can say Oper.... Go back to WoW and your Macro Spamming..  really.     Thats all fanboy.

     

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     


    Originally posted by Dredde Without the passives the combat system would be very bacis yes. But the passives makes it to one of the most complex combat systems in any mmo. If you dont see that you just dont understand it Greyhooff, but dont worry everyone cant.

     

    The passives somewhat add a layer of complexity, but that's only because the game is new. Once people start coming up with the best synergies, there will be just a handful of "top builds" which everyone who cares about effectiveness will be using.
     
    At any rate, the video somehow made it to the closed beta forums. As I imagined, a lot of forum badasses there too so I decided to log in in-game last night with a largely different blade/chaos build (different synergies and different 2-button smash rotation, only used chaos mostly for evasion). No footage, sorry. Although one of the guys I met in-game had this to say:

     


    OK I just got facerolled by him I would say roughly a dozen times. Now I won't say I'm the best player in the world (really slow to react and I lag a lot on my 32-bit system) but my build usually makes up the difference in button mashing and I actually win most of my 1v1 fights so in no way am I a lowbie in the pure sense.

     

    I was using my best build. I rarely lose 1v1 with this build (roughly 1 in 20 losses.) This is it:

    http://forums-beta.darkdaysarecoming...6&postcount=25

    Not even close. What struck me was his use of interrupts. I think you guys have done a good job of reconstructing his possible passives. By the time i could act I was down half my hp with tank armor on. For the last few fights I replaced Chaotic Pull with Smoke and Mirrors and Paradigm Shift with Perseverance and so I was literally popping three defensive actives and still getting my fat behind handed to me. He did use some form of blade finisher on me though so he may have amended his Chaos/Fists to Chaos/Blades.

    I agree he has found some great synergies. But I have to say hindering and in general mezzing seems a bit OP at present imo -- especially since the counters seem rather situational. Nevertheless got pwned fair and square.


     

     


    This too is a very good build and, as you say Scribe, not all that different from mine. I too can usually hold off multiple enemies in gank situations, and since I chose to play Dragon in beta -- going Templar in live unless I hate the people I play with -- I am in a LOT of gank situations. Basically, they are both very solid defensive builds made to withstand a variety of situations in PvP.

     

    His, however, is an out and out assassination build. What is disturbing is how easily he was able to achieve his goal (depressingly, his original assertion of mashing just two buttons might, in the end, be accurate, though the underlying synergies are complex). And as is usual in games like this (Magic: TG for example) specific decks always trump general purpose decks.

    The difference here, unlike Magic, is that there is no way (IMO) to build a **reliable** counter to a deck like his in this game. Even if it is completely reactive (meaning it is useless in all other situations except when facing off with Critical) you will not be guaranteed success even 50% of the time because counter-stun/mezzing simply sucks compared to stun/mezzing. A good player like him can chain mezz an opponent for a good ten (maybe longer even) seconds while unloading all his alphas. By the time you can react you are down to half (maybe less) your hp and fighting an uphill battle where you have to pop your defensives immediately just to stay alive a bit longer while he can use his tactically until his alphas come back off CD. Let's say you pop a counter-mezz (usually an elite ability and one that lasts for what, 6-8 seconds?) he can just wait till you're through and go through the rest of his chain-mezzing rotation. No doubt he will have plenty left in his toolbag I'm sure. And if you devote your one elite to counter-mezzing...well then your damage and utility go right out the window.

    In short: the only build that can stand a chance against one like his in a 1v1 situation is...basically his build. Which essentially means that his original thesis -- the combat in this game is overtly simplistic -- might be accurate, but not in the way he thinks. He was pointing out that the gameplay (i.e. button mashing just two buttons) is simple. That may or may not be so. What is more disturbing to me, however, is that the **design** of the ability system is at its core simplistic in that it rewards a player for choosing a handful of OP mezz-inducing abilities exclusively, while neglecting (justifiably in this case) 99% of the skill wheel.

    To those of us who avoided PvP in other MMOs (and I'm not referring to WoW specifically since I am one of the few to have never played it) because of this precise reason -- mezzing and the nerd-rage it induces as you stare at your toon being beaten to a fine paste while you beat impotently on your keyboard -- this is very bad news.


     

     

    It's early days yet, and there will be many nerfs and buffs to come image

     

    If your build is relying heavily on stuns and mezzing, then perhaps there is cause for a "balance adjustment" in that area. Or perhaps the countering moves needs balancing.

     

    With 524 skills/passives to choose from, I highly doubt tha FC have analysed all the possible combo's and balanced everything to a fine point. Even if their dev team consists of 300 people, that is no match for the creativity of a playerbase numbering 200K or 300K.

     

    The mechanics of combat in EVE are simple too. But the complexity is derived from the fact that every skill has a perfect counter. The trick is deciding which counters you will use in your "deck" (ship loadout), because you cannot use ALL the counters at the same time. A simplistic example would be if you meet someone in combat that's packing lasers, and you're stacked up for projectile defence, you're toast. With the correct defence type, it becomes a fair fight.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    So:

    - Highest DPS build: found. Rotation is 2 buttons, rest is cds that can be spammed on cd, it's all in the choice of passives, very easy.

    - Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.

    Having lots of fun facerolling. I'll post the builds here next week although by then everyone will probably be using them.

    image

  • TerronteTerronte Cedar Rapids, IAPosts: 321Member

    Supposedly they will be implementlng a really bad version of Dimishing Returns (the rumor is 30 seconds between being CC'd)

    I've found combat to be...pretty passive.

    Combat in PvE boils down to :

    Apply weakness skill

    Exploit weakness skill

    Finisher weapon A

    Finisher weapon B

    ---

    I spent most of my combat time just watching my builder points going up an down. I watch for the "Tells" (huge chalk outlines telling you the mob is doing a "super" attack) but that's about it.

     

  • DanitaKusorDanitaKusor AdelaidePosts: 549Member Uncommon

    For me at the moment, deep in the blue mountains my rotation is as follows.

    1.  Builderx5, occasionly need a dodge or aoe snare in this. This is your basic spam to build up resources.

    2.  Hit cooldown buff (I have 2x90sec cooldown buffs, one is a 25% damage boost, other is penetration boost).  Can use both here, but I prefer to cycle them so I have one each fight.

    3. Cast my 3 finishers (yes 3)

    4.  Finish off mob with builder, usually 2-3 more uses, sometimes need another finisher in there.

     

    The Enlightened take things Lightly

  • DanitaKusorDanitaKusor AdelaidePosts: 549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    - Broken stunlock PVP build: found. BRB killing everyone I come across in Fusang with 2 buttons while they wonder what happened. Oh and there is no counter to it. I checked.

    Isn't there an ability in one the misc green outer ring trees that removes stuns and makes you immune for a few seconds?  I saw that mentioned a few minutes ago on the official forums.

    Edit: found it, costs 9 AP.

    Sleight of Hand

    Removes all active crowd control effects from you and makes you immune to further crowd control effects for 7 seconds.

     

    I think a lot of people are missing the misc trees.

    The Enlightened take things Lightly

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