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How to succeed in WvWvW with a low population and a small guild.

AIMonsterAIMonster Apopka, FLPosts: 2,059Member

I wanted to make a quick guide on how you can really make a difference in WvWvW with various sized groups, what you should be targetting, and how you go about it.  I'm going to break this up into various group sizes and explain what you need to do to maintain control of a map.

General Tips:

  • Do not build glass cannon.  It's extremely ineffective in all modes of play of Guild Wars 2, but especially WvWvW.  You need to have a good amount of vitality and possibly a decent number of toughness too.  Plate classes do not need toughness as they already have a high "Defense" value from gear already (your actual mitigation is based on toughness + defense which mitigates all damage except condition DOT damage).  A build with vitality and toughness will absolutely devestate a glass cannon build.  Aside from this, a lot of times you'll be facing seige on the other side or manning a seige weapon where you are essentially unprotected.  You'll also likely have to tank damage from Guards at some point in time.  You need to be able to take hits.
  • You do not need two range weapons.  You should be using a balance of ranged and melee.  You don't need a long range weapon either, as that is what seige is for.  Melee weapons are MUCH stronger than range (with maybe a few exceptions like Elementalist) and they are the perfect weapons for infantry skirmishes.
  • Don't clump together in big groups when dealing with seige weapons.  It's much more effective to spread out.
  • Keep moving when you are attacking poorly defended seige.  Use buildings and line of sight against seige to get closer to seige.  Simply moving prevents Ballistas from hitting you at long range for example.  Keep an eye out for red circles on the ground and get out of them.  Some slower seige like Mortars can be easily dodged by watching the Mortar shots.
  • Avoid taking supply from towers unless that tower is being seiged.  Supply on a tower is absolutely critical to defense.  Take the extra time to go to a supply camp to get your supply if the danger isn't immediate.
  • Have someone watching the map at all times.  As soon as you see an attack (indicated by dual swords) respond to it.  It may just be a player running by and attacking the NPCs, but it could be a group of players trying to take your camps undefended.  If possible place scouts across the map.
  • Stay active.  If you aren't doing anything scout, or check the dynamic events, or watch your supply caravans.
  • The closer you are to enemy spawn points the more likely you are to deal with large (and constant) zergs from those enemies.  Taking a tower next to the enemy spawn point for example will simply mean you could be in for a long drawn out seige as wiping the enemy out will not result in a huge setback for the enemy.
  • Sometimes simply killing a tower or keeps supply is a victory.  Attack one point with a small force and have them spend all their supply on that point.  They'll probably wind up winning or pushing you out, but they'll likely now be completely out of supply.  Attack the other side and they'll probably have little means of defending it.
  • It's important to keep a steady stream of supply going when doing seiges.  Have someone (or multiple people) doing constant runs to a nearby supply camp to feed supply.  Take turns swapping out and doing these runs so you always have everyone with maximum supply.  Spending influence on increasing your maximum supply you can carry helps immensely with this too.
  • Skirmish if you can afford it.  Have players posted outside points and bait other players and groups to your seige weapons for easy and quick kills.  Your most mobile players are your best bet for skirmishers.
Seige Weapons and Upgrades:
 
Notes on Upgrades - Everytime you upgrade a camp, tower, or keep the total supply that point can hold will increase.  Holding the point till any upgrade completes will also reward EXP, Karma, and Gold to anyone who held the point while the upgrade was completing, making it a great way to get EXP and Karma.  Your group should take turns spending silver on upgrading each point as much as possible.
 
Burning Oil - This comes from the first set of weapon upgrades on a tower or keep.  It will add a large burning oil pot to your front door.  The damage is massive (possibly higher than any other seige weapon over time) and as long as you have one the enemy will think twice about using the front door on a seige which has roughly half the HP of any wall.  Burning Oil can be taken down with a lot of ranged focus, but as long as you have other seige this can be nearly impossible.  If you encounter Burning Oil on a door you should focus your efforts on a poorly defended wall somewhere else on the Keep instead.
 
Cannon - This is the next set of weapon upgrades on a tower or keep.  It adds a long range anti-infantry and seige artillery weapon.  It does decent damage, but a single cannon usually isn't enough to kill off larger groups of people especially when no supported by other means as it is fairly easy to dodge most of the attacks.  It doesn't have a lot of health and the cannons are placed in vulnerable positions, but the addition of cannons can make the start of an assault much more difficult on your opponent as they are cheap seige weapons.
 
Mortar - Mortars are basically longer ranged versions of the cannon.  They are placed in significantly safer positions than the cannon making them difficult to reach and stop.  Having this upgrade helps significantly with the control of the Keep.  The shots from very long range are even easier to dodge than a cannons, but against larger zergs they can be a nightmare to deal with.
 
More Guards - This is a great upgrade to have in supply camps especially.  It generally gives you enough time to deal with larger groups of players attacking a supply camp you may not be in a position to readily defend.  It also lets you pelt the enemy with seige weapons while they are dealing with the guards in the outer areas of a camp.  If a group attempts to rush you without dealing with the guards first it will generally result in a failure.
 
Upgraded Guards - This adds a Zealot to your defenses.  Zealots are Guards on steroids, providing decent CC, but more importantly an AoE whirlwind attack that can bring down squishier classes in seconds.  Attempting to take down a camp with a Zealot still active will generally result in a wipe for the opposing party.
 
Dynamic Event Guards - The reward for completing dynamic events to help NPC factions in the area is that they send powerful units to your supply camp.  These are equivalent to having a Zealot on your defenses with generally hard to deal with NPCs (such as a Wizard pelting people with 6k damage lightning bolts).  It's generally recommended that whenever possible to complete these dynamic events as they don't take very long and the reward is outstanding.
 
Arrow Carts - These are short range AoE damage anti-infantry weapons.  Try to place them as high on places as possible as this will increase their range.  Use the crippling shot to make it easier for other more powerful seige weapons to kill players such as Ballistas.  The biggest advantage of these is that they can be placed out of sights (essentially untargettable) on Keeps and Towers making them one of the best options for short range defense on those.  They can also shoot around buildings to extent, making them decent support for Ballistas on supply camps.  Their damage isn't fantastic, and a tanky person can easily just sit inside one and revive downed players and such, so don't rely on a single arrow cart completely for your defense.  They are the cheapest seige (at 4s) and cost only 30 supply.
 
Ballistas - These are the ultimate anti-infantry weapons and make great anti-seige too.  Each attack on the Ballista does roughly 6-7k damage on infantry units.  The first attack is a standard short cooldown anti-infantry bolt.  The second attack shoots an exploding bolt that splashing for full damage around anyone or anything it hits and also puts a bleed on the target.  This bolt can hit a little past the Ballistas max range as it does damage at it's max range + splash range, so it can be used as anti-seige against a seige placed just slightly out of the Ballistas range.  The third attack fires a bolt that does double damage versus seige weapons and makes this a very hard weapon to place seige against.  Keep in mind Ballistas attacks can be dodged easily by simply moving at long range.  At 6s and a mere 20 supply Ballistas are a perfect weapon to quickly destroy large groups of enemy zergs and make it difficult for them to place seige down.  These are highly recommended for both assaulting towers and keeps, supporting other seige, and defending supply camps.  For placement Ballistas should be placed as out in the open as possible.  Like Arrow Carts placing them high up will give them a ranged advantage.  Never place them next to buildings and such, as this provides enemies an easy way to approach them.  Never place other Ballistas near other as this makes them prone to AoE.
 
Catapults - A fantastic seige assault weapon.  You charge the catapult up by holding down the attack key and releasing it once you have the optimal level of power.  The longer you hold the charge the further the catapult will fire.  Against well defended towers and keeps you should place the catapult as far away as possible.  If you simply want to take down the wall faster, place the catapult closer.  At 50 supply and 8s these can be quite costly, but their high range makes them hard to deal and a fantastic way to take down walls from a safe distance.
 
Trebutchets - These are essentially more powerful versions of the catapult.  Even longer range than a catapult and having a very decent anti-infantry attack to boot, these are pretty much the ultimate weapon when it comes to taking down a tower or Keep.  Place them very far back and watch them rain fiery death (or poisonous cows) on your poor opponents.  At 16s and 100 supply these are extremely costs though even a small group can use them with a steady supply run.
 
Seige Golems - I feel these are more aethestic than serve a partical purpose.  They give you a decent amount of HP (~150k I think) and do massive damage to infantry and buildings alike, but they are extremely slow and easy to deal with out in the open.  At their gold and supply cost they really aren't worth the cost and you are better off using Ballistas and Arrow Carts for Infantry and Catapults and Trebutchets for seige.
 
Guard Types:
 
Dealing with any guard - If you have the option have pets tank the guards.  Pets can tank any guard type very well
 
Supervisor - These are found at supply camps.  They do a lot of melee damage, but are easily kited.  They have a lot of HP and defense and heal for a lot (try to poison them before they heal to reduce this).  Generally you can just deal with these last as they aren't much of a threat.
 
Guards - These are tanky and provide a bit of CC.  It's not a bad idea to prioritize them quickly and they are easy to pull back to a safer position.
 
Archers - They deal a decent amount of ranged damage.  They drop pretty easily, but generally you are in a better position to deal with melee units first.  Pull the melee units away and deal with them then deal with archers.  Do not drop down seige blueprints with archers near as they tend to pelt the seige blueprints before you can put supply on it, wasting the blueprint entirely.
 
Scouts - These are extremely annoying.  Their damage isn't particularly high, but they'll blind whoever is doing damage to them to the point where that person will barely be doing any damage and faster than you can remove it.  Whenever possible have a pet deal with this, as they'll take the blind without much of a noticable effect.
 
Zealots - These are extremely tanky, heal for a lot, have massive HP, and deal massive AoE damage.  Try to pull these alone and deal with them as soon as possible.  Do not attempt to engage a camp, tower, or keep till these are dealt with.
 
Tower and Keep Lords - Tower Lords are very managable with 3 players, but they have a lot of HP so it's recommended to build a Ballista to DPS them down.  They have a PB AoE, but anyone can tank them easily with the right build especially Ranger pets.  Hold them in place and let the Ballista and ranged DPS do their jobs.  Be careful not to reset them as they have a short leash.  Keep Lords on the other hand can be much harder to deal with.  It's recommended you get a few ballistas and a few people swapping out the tanking role to deal with one.  The AoE is also much larger too, so players should be aware of it.
 
Other NPCs - These are generally from winning dynamic events nearby.  They are quite powerful and should be regarded as a threat equal to the Zealots.  Take them out quickly.
 
Group Sizes and Tactics:
 
2 players - Buy lots of Ballistas and take over a nearby supply camp with a single choke point.  You may need to use a Ballista to take over the supply camp if you do not have enough damage.  Build 2 Ballistas on the supply camp (seperate them enough distance from each other) and wait for people to pour in from the choke point.  Rain AoE death and rake in the EXP, badges, and loot.  You can generally do this for hours before they get organized enough to rush in and take down the Ballistas.
 
3 to 5 players - The goal is to control a large areas of the map with just 3 to 5 players here.  Have each player buy several Ballistas, a few Arrow Carts, a few Flame Rams, and a Catapult each.  Take an area with 3 supply camps and 2 towers.  Start by taking both of the supply camps (using similar tactics to the 2 player tactics) surronding the first tower and wait to at least get the majority of the guard upgrades here.  Once the supply camps are well secured work on taking the tower.  If the tower has defenses up you'll probably need to whittle down and make them waste supply on one side and then attack the other side while it has no supply.  You'll need to make several supply runs doing this (especially if you only have 3 people) and make sure when you take the wall or keep door down you have everyone with full supply.  Build a Ballista to take the Tower Lord down faster.  Once you have this tower secured spend time upgrading and defending it.  Watch the supply camps and make sure none get stolen.  Finally move on to taking the final supply camp and tower and simply hold all 5 points as long as you can.  You'd be suprised how fast all the EXP and karma adds up between all the seige weapon kills and bonuses from upgrading and defense.
 
6 players to 10 players - Add another supply camp and a keep to your overall goals.  This should be easy enough.  Pretty much go on the same tactics here, except you have much more flexiblity on what you can buy and who spends what.  You'll be getting a decent amount of income as long as you split duties on upgrading and who spends what on seige.  Keeps themselves will require a lot of supply to take down I recommend a Ballista and 2 Flame Rams per wall undefended and against defended ones you'll want more Ballistas and Catapults instead of Rams (or better yet Trebutchets).  When you fight the Keep Lord you should build a lot more Ballistas to keep steady damage on him (and keep other defending players from coming to assist) and you'll need people taking turns taking him to keep him away from your seige.
 
11+ players - Focus on controlling and upgrading the entire map.  If you get everything upgraded there is pretty much nothing that can stop you beyond another organized group.  If you have more than one raiding party this size you may want to consider controlling the Eternal Battlegrounds even or trying to control 2 maps at once (a surefire way to singlehandedly win WvWvW as a single guild).  Don't be afraid to split up your group as much as possible here, there generally isn't much of a need for a group beyond 10 players in one spot in WvWvW once you are on the defensive.

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Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
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Comments

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    Good god, so much win in this thread. Seriously, someone give this man a cookie.

     

    One thing to add is that the damage output by keep upgrades isn't even as important as area deniability. People in this game, esp in WvW zergs, have a tendency to forget almost every ability can be fired off while moving. Especially when they're using targeted aoe powers (silly eles with your meteors...). Just keeping them running in circles and breaking their concentration can do a LOT for your side.

     

    Another great tactic, believe it or not, relies on how helpful your enemy is. Generally when someone gets downed, everyone in close range charges over for some free xp. Targeting downed players with aoe abilities can pay off handsomely when you turn one kill into 4. You can also use this on your OWN downed allies in skirmishes-all those fools running up to roll their face on F tend to forget the red circles of hot aoe death bombarding them. 

     

     

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    Great post Magnum +10

  • Admit it, you had Higgins write this.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon

    this should be stickied imo

  • Arathir86Arathir86 CanberraPosts: 442Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Admit it, you had Higgins write this.

    What you did there, I see it.

    "The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Love the write up, ton of good info.

    There was one little thing that bugged me. When I played a ranger during the second BWE, I found using a longbow as my main weapon and a shortbow with the second, much more effective in PvP.

    The longbow has a precision boost and that seemed good enough. My equipment had power boosts, which helped my shortbow a lot.

    I could attack several enemies at once, and keep them off me with knockbacks. Maybe it was just my playstyle that made it work, but it did work well.

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  • AIMonsterAIMonster Apopka, FLPosts: 2,059Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Love the write up, ton of good info.

    There was one little thing that bugged me. When I played a ranger during the second BWE, I found using a longbow as my main weapon and a shortbow with the second, much more effective in PvP.

    The longbow has a precision boost and that seemed good enough. My equipment had power boosts, which helped my shortbow a lot.

    I could attack several enemies at once, and keep them off me with knockbacks. Maybe it was just my playstyle that made it work, but it did work well.

    Well, a lot of people by now know my opinion on longbow and what a terrible weapon it is.  The damage output it puts over time is the lowest of any weapon and it lacks as good kiting potential as the shortbow (or even the axe).  The only major benefit of is it's range.  You should be making use of seige weapons at range instead and the biggest threat to seige is other seige and melee attackers which makes having a melee weapon absolutely critical.  The damage output and mobility provided in melee weapons is simply too much to pass up.

    As for the shortbow it's a good weapon and I enjoyed using it in PvP.  It's better overall for kiting than a longbow.  Still I would not stack power on it.  You'll get more mileage using condition damage on the shortbow as the vast majority of it's damage comes with conditions (poisons and bleeds, the auto attack applies poison stacks).  It's actually one of the more powerful weapons in an extremely tanky build due to how well conditions do damage even without stacking much power.

    EDIT:  Apparently Longbow is getting buffed next patch so good news for Longbow users.  It needed it.

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    Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
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  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    Very interesting read.  Might even see people doing something other than zerg from one spot on the map to another accomplishing little.

    Grog

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,498Member Uncommon

    Somebody played DAoC before, hehe. I remember seeing a lot of people use ballistae to kill Keep Lords in BGs as well as Frontiers. It was a useful tactic for small groups then and apparently still works today in GW2. As for me, I have 2 classes I'm interested in now for PvP, large and small scale.

    One being the Warrior.

    Other being the Thief.

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  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

    I will be revisting this thread a lot.  Great work

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Give this man a sticky, or add even better, create a guide from all this information

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Magnum2103
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Love the write up, ton of good info.

    There was one little thing that bugged me. When I played a ranger during the second BWE, I found using a longbow as my main weapon and a shortbow with the second, much more effective in PvP.

    The longbow has a precision boost and that seemed good enough. My equipment had power boosts, which helped my shortbow a lot.

    I could attack several enemies at once, and keep them off me with knockbacks. Maybe it was just my playstyle that made it work, but it did work well.

    Well, a lot of people by now know my opinion on longbow and what a terrible weapon it is.  The damage output it puts over time is the lowest of any weapon and it lacks as good kiting potential as the shortbow (or even the axe).  The only major benefit of is it's range.  You should be making use of seige weapons at range instead and the biggest threat to seige is other seige and melee attackers which makes having a melee weapon absolutely critical.  The damage output and mobility provided in melee weapons is simply too much to pass up.

    As for the shortbow it's a good weapon and I enjoyed using it in PvP.  It's better overall for kiting than a longbow.  Still I would not stack power on it.  You'll get more mileage using condition damage on the shortbow as the vast majority of it's damage comes with conditions (poisons and bleeds, the auto attack applies poison stacks).  It's actually one of the more powerful weapons in an extremely tanky build due to how well conditions do damage even without stacking much power.

    EDIT:  Apparently Longbow is getting buffed next patch so good news for Longbow users.  It needed it.

     

    Yup, thats pretty much how I played the ranger, but I wasnt refferencing towers or nothing, just straight PvP.

    Thats why I was saying how I would stay at a distance for as long as possible, for as much dmg as possilbe. As soon as they started to close the distance, I would hit them with the knockback and switch to shortbow. I tested this against the longsword and short sword, and the shortbow did more dmg and I didnt have to waste time closing the gap. But I still have to kite.

    The dmg was decent and I could stll kite for long periods, if I had 2 on me, I would switch back and forth, knocking one back then hitting the other. Its a lot of work tho, too bad my pet was worthless..lol.. hope they work on that A.I. soon.

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  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon

    If this longbow buff is true I will be a very happy man.

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • CookieTimeCookieTime SomewherePosts: 353Member

    *hands Magnum2103 a cookie*

    Eat me!

  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,316Member Uncommon

    GREAT post !!!

    Gave me some good ideas & info to survive in WvWvW !!

    Ty very much!

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  • HerodesHerodes DannenbergPosts: 1,494Member

    I only read the topic and to fuse it with the DAoc-thread:

    Night-raids, so easy. It happened in DAoC too.

    If you meet an overwhelming enemy, just find enough insane people to raid at 3 or 4 am. It was very succesful and more important: everybody talked about you: "Who the hell and when?"

  • BTW, please sticky this.

  • zeeZerzeeZer SomewherePosts: 36Member

    "Siege", not "seige" :)

  • MorcotulconMorcotulcon LisbonPosts: 262Member Common

    Great Thread! Yes, please "sticky" this!

     

    I already copied all this info in a thread for my guild (referring your nickname of course) and, although we still have to try all this tips one by one to see how viable they are, we like them a lot. Although I don't think  1 or 2 things really work that well, that's a personal opinion and a matter of trying ingame.

    Thank you very much!

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon

    bump!

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon

    Is this thread a prediction of the future of W v W v W?

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • Poison_AdelePoison_Adele Seattle, WAPosts: 287Member

    Kudos to OP!

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  • PJonePJone Leonardtown, MDPosts: 63Member

    That's our Magnum! Providing cold, hard, honest facts. He is a valued member of Violent Impact and the Impact Gaming Community. He's a little crazy, but what genius isn't a little off his rocker. You can't be a mad scientist without being mad after all. We were doing small group PvP for pretty much all of the BWEs and stress tests, and with great success even in the most unfavorable of situations.  This really does need a sticky though.

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  • freegamesfreegames san gabriel, CAPosts: 158Member

    You really know what you are doing.

    No wonder you became 1337 after posting so much valuable tidbits.

    As long as I get a Mesmer though it will be super also be running around alot.

  • PJonePJone Leonardtown, MDPosts: 63Member

    I know I've posted this video half a dozen times, but this is some footage of Violent Impact (VI) members doing exactly what Magnum is describing in his OP. Can't argue with those results.....30+ people to take out a non-upgraded supply camp with only 4 people defending it. If that's not a significant tactical advantage then I don't know what is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsg3v5PV5-4

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