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Indie devs, small companies - are the future for gaming then...

sagilsagil StockholmPosts: 291Member

...after big companies steal their ideas and make it 100-manned... but not as good, only 1/100th of the time. 

When buying indie games for the first time, I couldn't believe how much better and creative they are than 100 manned mmorpgs. It's the players that make better games, and not developers that have a life outside of gaming. They don't know sqwat. Players made the DotA map and see how popular it is now. When every single company first started they were a few people and they made awesome games. Then business men took over and hype the game with commercials and stuff and people think it's really good, but is it? Maybe it's for the playerbase that hadn't played the first game that wreak so much attention in gaming.

Companies are smart. That's what their job is. To research, steal, hype and act like it's revolutionary.

 

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Comments

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common

    Not true of just MMORPG's, but kind of like how indie films are often superior to these mega-buck canned big studio productions.  Guess the same thing is happening with gaming.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,743Member Uncommon

    Been saying this for a while.

    Right alongside "non-MMORPGs is where you'll find innovation; stop looking for something new in the exact same place nothing substantially new has happened for the last 10 years."

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member

    People say they want new and innovative but are perfectly content saying the same thing over and over again in a forum.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • herculeshercules lancashire,blackpoolPosts: 4,791Member Uncommon
    Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
    Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.
  • BossalinieBossalinie Hattiesburg, MSPosts: 683Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DannyGlover

    People say they want new and innovative but are perfectly content saying the same thing over and over again in a forum.

    Plus a billion

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon

    Almost all the games I've enjoyed recently have been done by small companies (with the exception of Skyrim). For the most part, I'm really tired of playing the same stuff over and over with a different skin.

     

    My game list for the past two months: Skyrim, Blackwell's Asylum, Ryzom, Wakfu, Eve Online, Thief I & II (replaying the greatest games ever made for PC)

     

    I had high hopes for FFXIV at one point, but they've slowly been turning it into every other MMORPG on the market, of which I have zero interest.

    <3

  • adiktusadiktus Frankfort, INPosts: 128Member
    Originally posted by hercules
    Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
    Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

    Well I guess that makes an important difference. Ideas are just that. Ideas. I can think of something that can change the world for the good, but once you consider time, resources, and its feasibility, then you will find out that most are unachievable or should be toned down.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by hercules
    Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
    Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

    Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

     

  • herculeshercules lancashire,blackpoolPosts: 4,791Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by hercules
    Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
    Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

    Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

     

     

    Well we are talking about mmorpg here .
  • SasamiSasami HelsinkiPosts: 326Member

    whole hype dies and we are back in normal. Indie games are overhyped nowdays. It's like people think they are new thing, fact is that they been there always. There is no new ideas, most are ripped from 90s console games. Thanks to better development tools there is more quality indie games but same time amount of junk games have increased as well.

  • 7star7star SeoulPosts: 405Member

    It's just the way of creativity in all the arts, whether we are talking about music, literature, or game design.  Indies are driven by their passion and creativity. Corps can't produce that. People that work at corps are driven by security and stability. This is not to criticize people, who work at corps. It's just that there are not a lot of corporate artists in the world. If the whole world were artists, we probably wouldn't have a very stable day to day life, either, so there is a place for  everyone.

     

    Back to the topic -- so creativity usually comes from the indies. Then the big corp comes and buys up the hot properties and evenutually they lose their creativity or the original artists depart because they aren't into the corp lifestyle. It goes on that way. So if you want to be at the cutting edge of the arts, you have to put up with bugs or imperfections. 

     

    If you want to see the great bands of the future, they are playing in seedy venues somewhere, now, maybe with crappy sounds systems and not yet discovered. If you want to play the next great game, you might have to put up with the poor object clipping or whatever. 

     

    However, even the big time corps have buggy games now. Or trouble keeping their games stable and online. I think certain big corps (I won't name names) have gone so far to the greed side, that they are now self-destructing. They may have a few more good years, but they are out of creativity and their brand name and goodwill are taking a big hit.

     

    There is always new blood out there and sometimes you just have to be patient and put up with less glossy stuff and look beyond the superficial aspects of you want to enjoy it. 

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

    A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 7star

    If you want to see the great bands of the future, they are playing in seedy venues somewhere, now, maybe with crappy sounds systems and not yet discovered. If you want to play the next great game, you might have to put up with the poor object clipping or whatever. 

     

    Nice post in general, but this is key to MMORPGs I think.

    A lot of MMORPG players say they want different, but they refuse to support different because it rarely starts out as AAA.

    They don't seem to understand that they have the market that they themselves have created.

     

    Platforms like Steam are doing a lot to open up the masses to Indie gaming, but it's a slow process to change fashionable 'pro' opinion of the internet.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

    A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

     

    Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

    I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Quirhid Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work. A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?
     

    Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

    I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.




    38 Studios is what would happen if you took any Indie studio and gave them 75 million dollars to play with. They wouldn't have any idea how to manage the money.

    I think the indie studios that do well do so because of their lack of funds. Not only do they have to be creative in their games, they have to be creative in how they make them. It forces a survival of the fittest kind of mentality. After a certain point, when the studio reaches a certain size, it's not as easy to change how you do something if it's not working. I don't think it's even easy to see that something isn't working so it's more likely that the larger studio is just going to plow ahead whether something is working or not.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,919Member Uncommon

    The biggest problems I have with Indie devs are:

     

    Some tend to over hype, over feature, and under produce.  Even if a game does gain a following this way, it only hurts reputation in the end.  If they can't deliver it, don't show it as a feature.  The result may be less hype, but in the end at least it doesn't trash reputation.

     

    Some Indie managers (especially owners) tend to be far less than honest with fans.  Sometimes this is just unforseen problems that derail development, but saying things like it's feature complete and ready to go at any time is obviously a stretch when release comes and large chunks of the game aren't working or incomplete.

     

    Single player games might not have much community interaction, but MMORPGs do.  That needs a community manager and PR spokesperson for interaction.  Not letting community turn into a zoo should be a priority, and that means not only keeping participants in line, but also the community manager and mods.  Unprofessional mods are the worst, and a big killer of reputation.

     

    Even with these three... yes, mid-budget Indies are more likely to produce a niche game that is exceptional.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hercules
    Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
    Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

    Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

     

    Those movies will quickly be forgotten, while some indie films are timeless.  Think anyone will care abut "Avengers" in ten years?  They'll be looking for the next mega-bucks eye candy in 3D.

    But, some indie films stick in your mind forever.  ("The Last Night at the Alamo", "The Whole Shootin' Match")

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Single player games?  Sure.  Plenty of good indie games.

    Normal multiplayer / co-op games?  Can also find some good ones.

    Lobby multiplayer games?  Yeah. Same as above. Some insanely succesful and indutry defining even (LoL or WoT).

    MMORPG?  Aside of EVE I have yet to find any good indie mmorpg. One that would not be ridiculoosely bugged, underdeveloped, understaffed and not providing most of features they promised. + takig ages to add anything new or fix things. Forever alpha state.

    One good, succesful indie mmorpg in last 10-15 years?

    Hardly a saviour for a genre and future to look for.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

    A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

     

    Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

    I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

    38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young. Arenanet started out with 3 guys coding in the kitchen and look where they are now? Same thing with CCP. They are no longer "indie". They have hundreds of employees. They are big companies now.

    Compare that to say Taleworlds the developer of Mount & Blade. They started out with 3 guys too as far as I know and they still have less than 20 emplyees. That is indie. But ofcourse the specific limit is more or less arbitrary, isn't it.

     

    If you had 300 families depending on your decisions, would you still be willing to take huge risks based on a hunch? As opposed to making those risks with only you and your life on the line? I don't know about you but I'm happy to take risks if it was only me, but I'd hate to take risks with the chance of ruining othe people's lives. Its different.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • spikers14spikers14 las vegas, NVPosts: 362Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Single player games?  Sure.  Plenty of good indie games.

    Normal multiplayer / co-op games?  Can also find some good ones.

    Lobby multiplayer games?  Yeah. Same as above. Some insanely succesful and indutry defining even (LoL or WoT).

    MMORPG?  Aside of EVE I have yet to find any good indie mmorpg. One that would not be ridiculoosely bugged, underdeveloped, understaffed and not providing most of features they promised. + takig ages to add anything new or fix things. Forever alpha state.

    One good, succesful indie mmorpg in last 10-15 years?

    Hardly a saviour for a genre and future to look for.

    That's true. As has been cited in this thread already, it takes alot of resources to even make an mmo playable, much less polished and enjoyable. That's a tough road for an Indie company to travel down. Hell, mmo's these days are even risky for large companies.

    We can still look to those Indie games for features or ideas, hoping that capable studios find creative ways to incorporate them into new mmo's. So while Indie's aren't necessarly large producers of quaity mmo's, the ideas generated from any game can cause new trends or playstyles. 

    Fortunately, there may be an evoloving saving grace for Indie studios wanting to delve into MMO's. Browser MMO's. They still have a long way to go, but the technology is catching up (unity, etc). I think the future is bright for independent studios, as long as the tech behind it progresses. 

  • eykosurfeykosurf North Shore, HIPosts: 14Member
    Originally posted by DannyGlover

    People say they want new and innovative but are perfectly content saying the same thing over and over again in a forum.

     

    Lol, perfect.

     

    The irony with boutique studios is that gamers want to support them emotionally, but rarely financially.  I absolutely agree that boutique studios tend to be more creative with gameplay and mechanics.  The problem is that gamers somehow expect these studios to deliver the same quality and varied features out-of-the-gate.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

    A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

     

    Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

    I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

    38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young.

    Sure it does.

    'Indie' simply means not being owned by a 'major' or being part of a larger group. I also believe that 38 had a definite 'indie philosophy' of game design behind them, despite their solid funding.

    But, nm, I accept you define it differently. Not like we will change each other's opinion on whats 'indie' here :)

    If you had 300 families depending on your decisions, would you still be willing to take huge risks based on a hunch? As opposed to making those risks with only you and your life on the line? I don't know about you but I'm happy to take risks if it was only me, but I'd hate to take risks with the chance of ruining othe people's lives. Its different.

    Not when everyone has chosen to be part of that project, no I wouldn't.

    Personally I would be honest about what I was doing, what I was aiming for, the risks involved, and then let each employee make up his/her own mind and take that responsibility on themselves.

    That's just me though.

     

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

    A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

     

    Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

    I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

    38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young.

    Sure it does.

    'Indie' simply means not being owned by a 'major' or being part of a larger group. I also believe that 38 had a definite 'indie philosophy' of game design behind them, despite their solid funding.

    But, nm, I accept you define it differently. Not like we will change each other's opinion on whats 'indie' here :)

     

    If you have 300 employees, then your not indie.

    "Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support. "

     

    according to your logic, if i had a team of 500 people, and 100 million dollars, but i didnt have a major publisher or owner i would be an idie game dev, simply not true.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by sagil

    ...after big companies steal their ideas and make it 100-manned... but not as good, only 1/100th of the time. 

    When buying indie games for the first time, I couldn't believe how much better and creative they are than 100 manned mmorpgs. It's the players that make better games, and not developers that have a life outside of gaming. They don't know sqwat. Players made the DotA map and see how popular it is now. When every single company first started they were a few people and they made awesome games. Then business men took over and hype the game with commercials and stuff and people think it's really good, but is it? Maybe it's for the playerbase that hadn't played the first game that wreak so much attention in gaming.

    Companies are smart. That's what their job is. To research, steal, hype and act like it's revolutionary.

     

    this is true in so many things.

    examples: Led Zepplin and Pink Floyd were frown on by the radio industry and yet they have both become icons.

    3rd party poltical parties never win elections but they always force the main two parties to address new issues and topics.

    microsoft has stated in the past they they spend a great deal of time watching what other developers do with technology (so they can buy them if they end up good)

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by hercules

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hercules
    Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
    Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

    Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

     

     

    Well we are talking about mmorpg here .

    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Not true of just MMORPG's, but kind of like how indie films are often superior to these mega-buck canned big studio productions.  Guess the same thing is happening with gaming.

    Oh really?

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

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