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Why the Combat is Poorly Designed (With Video Included)

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  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Piiritus
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Piiritus
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.

    Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.

     

    Well I stopped playing Tera and will be playing TSW tomorrow, so why should I not be on this forum?

    Just because I'm not a mindless fanboy doesn't mean I won't play the game. I just play with an open, critical eye, rather than mindlessly adoring and flag-waving.

    It's ok to be critical about the game you play, necessary even for the health of the game.

    Yet you are saying that everyone not agreeing with you is slow, doing everything wrong etc. One does not have to be a "mindless fanboy" to get tired of mindless bashing and labeling.

    tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.

    The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.

    image

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.

    The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.

    Most people, myself included, aren't "not understanding" the combat. We're "not liking it".

    The game might chiefly be about questing, but combat is what 90% of players do 90% of the time when they're not questing, and at least half the quests involve combat to some extent, even if its dealing with agro while running to your destination.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
    Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Piiritus
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Piiritus
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.

    Yet you are saying that everyone not agreeing with you is slow, doing everything wrong etc. One does not have to be a "mindless fanboy" to get tired of mindless bashing and labeling.

    Where the hell do you read that? It really sounds like you are inferring what you want.

    All he's saying is poker = more complex than TSW. Which I would absolutely agree. Watch a game of professional poker. There's not only a lot of math involved, but there's an entirely 2ndary layer of psychology built on top of this.

    Hell, I'm not a 'great' poker player, but I've managed to beat pretty good players by figuring out their playerstyle, and what the weaknesses / strengths of that are. I.E. I managed to win a game w/ some other devs, because I knew they were playing a purely logical game. So I spent a lot of the game playing illogically / chaoticly, and they had no clue how to handle that.

    Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.

  • moreblahblahmoreblahblah privatePosts: 58Member
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     

    I had some discussions yesterday regarding the combat in TSW, so I decided to throw a video together with some footage I got last night to help illustrate my point to the more visually oriented folks. Keep in mind that this video was shot after the NDA was lifted. No broken or perceived as broken abilities (i.e. Explosive Expert) were used during this video. I tried to focus on the more even fights (lots of 1vs1s, 1vs2s and some 1vs3s) since it’s hard to get a good idea of how the combat works in more chaotic zerg vs zerg fights.  Most of the opponents I’m fighting are CB testers with QL10 FATE gear (4k+ HP). I’m wearing QL10 greens as well.
     
     
    I know the video is boring. I’m mindlessly smashing 2 buttons the entire time, and I facerolled everyone doing it.  I did this intentionally to illustrate why I think the combat is poorly designed and why it favors boring, repetitive gameplay. Here are the biggest offenders:
     
    Superfluous abilities:  The majority of attacks (i.e. resource builders and spenders) feel like they’ve been copied and pasted. Heck, even a lot of the animations are identical. The minuscule differences between them don’t have a big enough impact to warrant using more than one of each. For example, once you have a decent synergy with a builder and a ST/AOE spender, you’re pretty much set to faceroll your way through 99% of the content in the game, including PvP, by smashing 2-3 buttons ad nauseum. If you played SWTOR, I have two words that describe this perfectly: TRACER MERC. Every build I’ve tried in two months’ worth of testing feels like a tracer merc, hitting the same 2-3 button over and over again. Every once in a while I’d throw in a different ability, mostly because I got bored though, it’s not actually necessary. So what’s stopping me from using my other slots to build an engaging rotation you ask? Well, continue reading.
     
    Ability Cap: Or how TSW rewards you for using boring rotations. Here’s the thing most people don’t realize yet: due to the homogenization of attacks, passive abilities have a bigger impact on your DPS (and healing to some extent) than the attacks you use. You might think I’m bullshitting you. After all how could that be true when abilities like Thor’s Hammer hit so hard? Well, it’s actually not that good. People who have done the math will tell you that you’re actually better off just using a rotation like the one shown in the video (i.e. frantically spamming two buttons over and over). You can accomplish this with pretty much any two attacks if you know what you’re doing. Mine’s actually not even that good compared to some other mindless rotations I’ve seen, but I’m a sucker for Chaos and punching people in the face. I guess I’m glad the animations are identical in this case.
     
    How does TSW reward you for this? Having the attacks not make much of a difference forces you to limit the number of attacks you have. Since the majority of them are more or less the same, you’ll do just as good with only 2 or 3 compared to someone packing 3 consumers and 4 spenders. In addition, you’ll have 4 slots where you can put things that actually make a difference like defensive CDs, damage buffs and CC. The problem with this is that those useful abilities generally have long cooldowns (5 out of 7 of my abilities have 45sec CDs), which leads to mashing the same 2-3 buttons 90% of the time. One way to fix this would be to raise the cap to 10 abilities. Were that the case, I can see myself including at least 2 new attacks to my rotation, since the numbers of additional active buffs and CCs I can have is already limited by the weapons I have equipped. While hardly game-changing, adding two more bread-and-butter attacks could go a long way in keeping me awake, and might even provide a slight improvement, but with a limit of 7 active abilities? No way Jose. There’s better stuff to consider. The other (and most likely to happen) way to fix this would be to nerf the handful of decent actives left into the ground, thus making everything as boring and uninspired as the majority of attacks. Until then, mashing the same 2-3 keys is the price I and many others will have to pay for the sake of effectiveness.
     
    tl;dr: the degree of similarities between the majority of abilities and the limitation on how many you can use at a time just seems like a very lazy attempt at balance and it’s the reason why the combat feels lackluster. The other MMOs I’ve played that limited you to such a small number of active abilities compensated by giving you access to ALL the attacks with the weapon you were using so the combat wasn’t as repetitive. I know that simple, mindless rotations are not new to MMOs, but this is the first game I’ve played that actually punishes you for doing the opposite.

    You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.

    You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all.  So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.

    Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.

    You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.

    If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?

     

     

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Piiritus
     

    Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.

    Notice something lacking from your assessment?

    You aren't considering skill at all.

    That says a considerable amount about the game.

    I mean, counterclasses (counterspecs here) happen. But if you're correct, then you're rock and your enemy is scissors or paper.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
    Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Deathofsage
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    tbh people who don't understand how the ability trees, stats and level system in TSW work are being slow, it's really not complicated. I'm not saying they are mentally deficient or anything, just that they are not thinking things through.

    The best analogy I can think of is people not splitting up a restaurant dinner bill because they think it's too complicated or can't be bothered to divide by 4.

    Most people, myself included, aren't "not understanding" the combat. We're "not liking it".

    The game might chiefly be about questing, but combat is what 90% of players do 90% of the time when they're not questing, and at least half the quests involve combat to some extent, even if its dealing with agro while running to your destination.

    oh hey, I get that, I don't really like the combat either, but my preferences are not what I'm discussing here, I'll be playing TSW sort of like a point-and-click story game, with maybe a dash of owning large numbers of combat fanboys with my guild in Fusang.

    I was just saying that those who say the combat and spec trees in TSW are complex and deep are actually wrong, much in the same way as one can be wrong about the R-squared of a statistical study - that it is a matter of fact that TSW is actually very simplistic and limited, not a matter of preference.

    image

  • Kykyryz-aKykyryz-a AlmatyPosts: 113Member
    Originally posted by Piiritus
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    Oh and as a poker player myself, I have to say if you think TSW's combat system fits the analogy of a hand of poker, you don't know how to play poker.

    Of the quick people is back. Now you are saying that again. Honestly, you seem to hate TSW so much it makes me wonder why do you linger in these forums all the time? Go to WoW or it's clone GW2 with your epeen where all other l33tkidz are. As much as I despise those 2 games I don't spend my time bashing them 24/7.

    Why if people cant defend game they always starting to say crazy things, in what way GW cllone of Wow? OP never said TSW is bad game   he just said and SHOWED,  fights in game poor as no need in situational Spells like cc and only thing you need 2 fingers and once in a while hit 3rd button.  as game not even finished after 7/3 it will be getting patches all the time for sure.  And  to other ppl who saying he is fighting with low "lvl" ppl  - if ppl were in Close beta for months and had 4k+  its kinda stupid to say they are ungeared or in tank gear (yeah tank is what you want in pvp!) as he showed how Ungeared player owned in 3 hits in a link before.  Sure most of players act like retards  so in other hand maybe TSW designed  for ppl who have troubles hitting even 2 buttons and moving mouse sametime. 

    Still good video good post  just no need to hate OP only because he is trying to show problems in a game.

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Deathofsage
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Piiritus
     

    Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.

    Notice something lacking from your assessment?

    You aren't considering skill at all.

    That says a considerable amount about the game.

    I mean, counterclasses (counterspecs here) happen. But if you're correct, then you're rock and your enemy is scissors or paper.

    I left that out of my assessment, because I didn't need to know how skilled the player was. Their skill basically meant the difference between whether or not I ended a fight w/ most of my HP, or wounded. Either way, I had a self-heal to take care of that.

    Hell, I'm not even the only one w/ this experience. There have been a number of videos / livestreams posted that all show the same thing. There just aren't enough counters, you know what your build is good at, and what it isn't. You can generally tell what another person is running by their health / weapons (or even kit, since your appearance changes depending on what you Q up as). A low damage spec is going to suck against a good healer, so unless you can down his HP pool in a few hits, you can't win it. A high damage spec can eat a healer alive np, as well as another DPS, but if they find a tank w/ more than double their HP, it's going to be a very tough fight. etc. You can try a more balanced spec as well, which might make it harder for you to determine the outcome of a fight, but generally I've found these don't do that well in this game's PvP.

    And ya, it does say a lot about the combat =/

  • Kykyryz-aKykyryz-a AlmatyPosts: 113Member
    Originally posted by moreblahblah
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     

     

    You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.

    You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all.  So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.

    Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.

    You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.

    If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?

     

     

    So 1 more person who knows everythg :)   saying OP got TOp gear AND he  can't  get  HIM below 70%  

    PLS  moreblahblah  post video with your char  1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot"   or really try to argue about  topic here "complex of fight in TSW"  

    you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and  only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons.  nothg else.   you dont need any tactic you dont need  cc.

    image

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Kykyryz-a
    Originally posted by moreblahblah
    Originally posted by Krytycal

     

     

    You are so full of it. In fact you are without a doubt flat out lying.

    You are not wearing greens from FATE. I have been in Beta for many months, I PvP many hours each day. For starters a full green Tanking set from Fate Only gives about 8k health and has no offensive stats at all.  So are you trying to tell me you are wearing 5 or 6 tanking talisman and 1 or 2 dps talisman? Cause if you were there is no way you would get those pen/crit numbers. You would not even get those pen/crit numbers from a full set of DPS greens from FATE rocking 4.5k health.

    Here is what you are wearing, a full set of Nightmare Dungeon QL 10.1 and 10.2 talismans, you have 5 dps Talismans and 2 tanking talismans equipped (with all signet slots filled), both weapons are QL 10.2. You are rocking close to 2800 attack power, around 850 penetration and around 700 crit rating. Plus you have the full Fusang faction defensive buffs.

    You are fighting enemy players in greens whos offensive stats are probably 1/4 of yours and they have no real clue how to play because they are totally new to the game. Go fight "qop", "Blademaiden", "DeathAdder" or any of a couple dozen other highly skilled, highly geared Dragons or Lumies and post a video of those fights.

    If you attacked me with that character you wouldn't get me below 70% and you would die a slow and humiliating death. Why you lie bro?

     

     

    So 1 more person who knows everythg :)   saying OP got TOp gear AND he  can't  get  HIM below 70%  

    PLS  moreblahblah  post video with your char  1-2 hitting everythg moving in a range of "shoot"   or really try to argue about  topic here "complex of fight in TSW"  

    you just said same thing ... combat is 1-2 buttons and  only thing matters is gear and ability to spam 2 buttons.  nothg else.   you dont need any tactic you dont need  cc.

     

    Yeah I don't think Moreblahblah realises it, but what he just said was in effect that:

    a) skill does not matter as combat is simplistic

    b) the PVP is completely gear level driven

    image

  • ElethonElethon San Diego, CAPosts: 122Member Uncommon

    Thank you OP for the excellent post and video.

    When I first heard this game would have hundrends of skills to choose from, I knew it would just be trouble as many skils will have to be homogenized with others.

  • mrgrimrprmrgrimrpr Colorado Springs, COPosts: 87Member

    The combat isn't any worse than WoW/SWTOR/GW2/RIFT/LOTRO.

  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member
    Originally posted by Blackbrrd
    Originally posted by Raekon

    TSW

    - you run into a zombies infested place, the zombies are running to you as if they had pushed the "turbo mode" button and are glued on your body no matter how you move, biting you 24/7 till they are dead.

    - No dodging possible, not a possibility to put them away since they are too fast and are glued on your body as if they were your second skin.

    I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.

    Hi! :)

    I know that you can strafe and circle around.

    My problem with it was that even the basic zombies were THAT fast that no matter how you moved, they kept been glued on your body, barely did damage while you were taking them out one after another.

    If they managed to take your hp down (some stronger ones) you simply healed with a item before you took them down again while they were repeating their same attack animation over and over while you had no chance to take some distance by rolling or jumping back or to the side.

    In my opinion they could fix the issue by either adding proper dodging/jumping/rolling into the game (make it more action based like in the RE Series as example) OR at least make these zombies slower than the player cause their speed is ridicoulos.

    When I get attacked by "turbo zombies" that barely do damage and are glued on my body no matter how I move, it just destroys this feeling and drops the quality of the game down to nothingness and that's a bad thing.

    Even enemies that should be faster than the player like birds or dogs shouldn't just rush and get glued on one but rather attack, step back and rush attack again.

    If they indeed "stuck" on the player, then a proper animation should be included in which shows that a dog has bitten and holds a part of your clothing or body and give you the opportunity to hit it away, roll back (or similar action) before it makes it back to you again.

    Same with the zombies after they reached someone.

    Such details would improve the overall quality of the game and richen the whole experience for everyone.

    It just bothers me the most because the game has a wonderful atmosphere/environment in which properly designed enemies and combat mechanics could give you a really great horror adventure feeling and add a lot of fun into the game.

    It would be a huge shame if they won't bother to improve such things.

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr

    The combat isn't any worse than WoW/SWTOR/GW2/RIFT/LOTRO.

    I've said this in enough threads, but it is, imo, worse than WoW/RIFT's (I wouldn't describe TOR's as any different, but it didn't execute that well and I only played it on one beta weekend).

    A big thing for me is the number of abilities. I think the only major flaw in TSW's combat is the limit on abilities. If you had 7 things that could be part of your rotation, and 3-7 that were cooldowns, it might be significantly more fun (for me, and some others, but not everyone).

    I feel like there's always an optimal opener and optimal closer, and I feel like most fights have me spamming those two buttons.

    If I came up on two tough mobs, I would go at them with my shotgun/chaos like this..

    1. Kneecapper,
    2. Builder*5,
    3. Shotgun AOE Fnisher,
    4. Chaos ST Finisher,
    5. Builder*5,
    6. Shotgun AOE Finisher,
    7. Chaos ST Finisher,
    8. -mob dies here, or very low on health (might need to finish it off rq, maybe with aoe finisher on the other mob),
    9. Builder*5 (depending on how it took to kill the other mob.
    10. Shotgun ST Finisher
    11. Chaos ST Finisher
    12. Both enemies are probably dead
    If I'm fighting more than 2, I use AOE builder.
     
    Fights RARELY last the 20s to use Kneecapper twice.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
    Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Raekon
    Originally posted by Blackbrrd
    Originally posted by Raekon

    TSW

    - you run into a zombies infested place, the zombies are running to you as if they had pushed the "turbo mode" button and are glued on your body no matter how you move, biting you 24/7 till they are dead.

    - No dodging possible, not a possibility to put them away since they are too fast and are glued on your body as if they were your second skin.

    I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.

    Hi! :)

    I know that you can strafe and circle around.

    My problem with it was that even the basic zombies were THAT fast that no matter how you moved, they kept been glued on your body, barely did damage while you were taking them out one after another.

    If they managed to take your hp down (some stronger ones) you simply healed with a item before you took them down again while they were repeating their same attack animation over and over while you had no chance to take some distance by rolling or jumping back or to the side.

    In my opinion they could fix the issue by either adding proper dodging/jumping/rolling into the game (make it more action based like in the RE Series as example) OR at least make these zombies slower than the player cause their speed is ridicoulos.

    When I get attacked by "turbo zombies" that barely do damage and are glued on my body no matter how I move, it just destroys this feeling and drops the quality of the game down to nothingness and that's a bad thing.

    Even enemies that should be faster than the player like birds or dogs shouldn't just rush and get glued on one but rather attack, step back and rush attack again.

    If they indeed "stuck" on the player, then a proper animation should be included in which shows that a dog has bitten and holds a part of your clothing or body and give you the opportunity to hit it away, roll back (or similar action) before it makes it back to you again.

    Same with the zombies after they reached someone.

    Such details would improve the overall quality of the game and richen the whole experience for everyone.

    It just bothers me the most because the game has a wonderful atmosphere/environment in which properly designed enemies and combat mechanics could give you a really great horror adventure feeling and add a lot of fun into the game.

    It would be a huge shame if they won't bother to improve such things.

     

    I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

    Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

    Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.

    image

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Krytycal

      Most of the opponents I’m fighting are CB testers with QL10 FATE gear (4k+ HP). I’m wearing QL10 greens as well.

     

    So you had 6900 hp and virtually everyone you fought had about 4000hp and your conclusion is that you were in equivalent gear.  Seriously?????

     

    And your conclusion, the combat is borked, rather than you out geared your opposition?  Again seriously???

     

    LOLZ.

     

    It has been pointed out already by others in this thread that you were fighting Ql3-Ql5 geared people.  Yes this does mean that gear matters in PvP, how unusual, and unexpected. /sarcasm

     

    /close thread

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Deathofsage
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Piiritus
     

    Every match I've encountered so far in TSW, I've pretty much known the outcome before it even started. 'Count number of enemies', 'Look at enemy's health, look at his weapons', all that's left is to press the buttons. I can't say this at all about any poker game I've ever played.

    Notice something lacking from your assessment?

    You aren't considering skill at all.

    That says a considerable amount about the game.

    I mean, counterclasses (counterspecs here) happen. But if you're correct, then you're rock and your enemy is scissors or paper.

    I left that out of my assessment, because I didn't need to know how skilled the player was. Their skill basically meant the difference between whether or not I ended a fight w/ most of my HP, or wounded. Either way, I had a self-heal to take care of that.

    Hell, I'm not even the only one w/ this experience. There have been a number of videos / livestreams posted that all show the same thing. There just aren't enough counters, you know what your build is good at, and what it isn't. You can generally tell what another person is running by their health / weapons (or even kit, since your appearance changes depending on what you Q up as). A low damage spec is going to suck against a good healer, so unless you can down his HP pool in a few hits, you can't win it. A high damage spec can eat a healer alive np, as well as another DPS, but if they find a tank w/ more than double their HP, it's going to be a very tough fight. etc. You can try a more balanced spec as well, which might make it harder for you to determine the outcome of a fight, but generally I've found these don't do that well in this game's PvP.

    And ya, it does say a lot about the combat =/

    My apologies then. I took it as you were supporting the combat and saying that "if you understand the combat, and (assume) most people do not, you'll win".

    I wish they'd chosen an action combat. TSW with fun combat would kill a lot of mmo's that are sputtering along. It might even seriously hurt that one.. Um... "Whoa" or "Woo" whatsitcalled.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
    Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  • mrgrimrprmrgrimrpr Colorado Springs, COPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Raekon
    Originally posted by Blackbrrd
    Originally posted by Raekon

    TSW

    - you run into a zombies infested place, the zombies are running to you as if they had pushed the "turbo mode" button and are glued on your body no matter how you move, biting you 24/7 till they are dead.

    - No dodging possible, not a possibility to put them away since they are too fast and are glued on your body as if they were your second skin.

    I saw a TSW dev commenting on this and said that just moving and active dodging made you live 33% longer than just standing there. The mobs does continous attacks if you stand still, but get forced into the movement animation if you move. You can't backpedal though, you need to circle strafe.

    Hi! :)

    I know that you can strafe and circle around.

    My problem with it was that even the basic zombies were THAT fast that no matter how you moved, they kept been glued on your body, barely did damage while you were taking them out one after another.

    If they managed to take your hp down (some stronger ones) you simply healed with a item before you took them down again while they were repeating their same attack animation over and over while you had no chance to take some distance by rolling or jumping back or to the side.

    In my opinion they could fix the issue by either adding proper dodging/jumping/rolling into the game (make it more action based like in the RE Series as example) OR at least make these zombies slower than the player cause their speed is ridicoulos.

    When I get attacked by "turbo zombies" that barely do damage and are glued on my body no matter how I move, it just destroys this feeling and drops the quality of the game down to nothingness and that's a bad thing.

    Even enemies that should be faster than the player like birds or dogs shouldn't just rush and get glued on one but rather attack, step back and rush attack again.

    If they indeed "stuck" on the player, then a proper animation should be included in which shows that a dog has bitten and holds a part of your clothing or body and give you the opportunity to hit it away, roll back (or similar action) before it makes it back to you again.

    Same with the zombies after they reached someone.

    Such details would improve the overall quality of the game and richen the whole experience for everyone.

    It just bothers me the most because the game has a wonderful atmosphere/environment in which properly designed enemies and combat mechanics could give you a really great horror adventure feeling and add a lot of fun into the game.

    It would be a huge shame if they won't bother to improve such things.

     

    I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

    Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

    Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.


    Shenanigans, Still mad that SWTOR is a flop? If you think the combat is any worse than any mmo that has come out, you'd be mistaken. Bad combat? lol, people's posts are excluding quite a bit of "IMO", thus being spoken as fact. The fact is: why would you play a game if one of its big mechanics such as combat is broken?

    If this is an attempt to ward of the WoW crowd, then by all means: The combat is broken. *wink* *wink* *nudge* nudge*

  • ElSandmanElSandman BrisbanePosts: 94Member
    Originally posted by Deathofsage
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr

    The combat isn't any worse than WoW/SWTOR/GW2/RIFT/LOTRO.

    I've said this in enough threads, but it is, imo, worse than WoW/RIFT's (I wouldn't describe TOR's as any different, but it didn't execute that well and I only played it on one beta weekend).

    A big thing for me is the number of abilities. I think the only major flaw in TSW's combat is the limit on abilities. If you had 7 things that could be part of your rotation, and 3-7 that were cooldowns, it might be significantly more fun (for me, and some others, but not everyone).

    I feel like there's always an optimal opener and optimal closer, and I feel like most fights have me spamming those two buttons.

    If I came up on two tough mobs, I would go at them with my shotgun/chaos like this..

    1. Kneecapper,
    2. Builder*5,
    3. Shotgun AOE Fnisher,
    4. Chaos ST Finisher,
    5. Builder*5,
    6. Shotgun AOE Finisher,
    7. Chaos ST Finisher,
    8. -mob dies here, or very low on health (might need to finish it off rq, maybe with aoe finisher on the other mob),
    9. Builder*5 (depending on how it took to kill the other mob.
    10. Shotgun ST Finisher
    11. Chaos ST Finisher
    12. Both enemies are probably dead
    If I'm fighting more than 2, I use AOE builder.
     
    Fights RARELY last the 20s to use Kneecapper twice.

    I assume you didn't go very far into the game based on the above.  There are fights in Blue Mountains where if you pull out an AoE that early in your rotation you will be dead.

    Kingsmouth, on the other hand, yeah you may as well blow mobs away with your AoEs.

     

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Winston, PAPosts: 998Member
    Originally posted by ElSandman
    Originally posted by Deathofsage
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr

    The combat isn't any worse than WoW/SWTOR/GW2/RIFT/LOTRO.

    I've said this in enough threads, but it is, imo, worse than WoW/RIFT's (I wouldn't describe TOR's as any different, but it didn't execute that well and I only played it on one beta weekend).

    A big thing for me is the number of abilities. I think the only major flaw in TSW's combat is the limit on abilities. If you had 7 things that could be part of your rotation, and 3-7 that were cooldowns, it might be significantly more fun (for me, and some others, but not everyone).

    I feel like there's always an optimal opener and optimal closer, and I feel like most fights have me spamming those two buttons.

    If I came up on two tough mobs, I would go at them with my shotgun/chaos like this..

    1. [..]
    If I'm fighting more than 2, I use AOE builder.
     
    Fights RARELY last the 20s to use Kneecapper twice.

    I assume you didn't go very far into the game based on the above.  There are fights in Blue Mountains where if you pull out an AoE that early in your rotation you will be dead.

    Kingsmouth, on the other hand, yeah you may as well blow mobs away with your AoEs.

     

    I made it about halfway through Blue Mountain.

    Most of the dangerous areas have small 'adds' (mobs close enough to agro) that are the "agro problem". They die very quickly. Yes, sometimes I became overwhelmed and was forced to run, and sometimes I did die, but most times I made it, if barely.

    Situaltional awareness goes a long way, in any game.

    I did switch builders as needed, but with care, it's not usually needed. 

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
    Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  • DreddeDredde HaugesundPosts: 28Member
    Originally posted by Dominionlord

    I'm more....dissapointed that other things aren't in the game then with combat. player housing for one., non combat things to do. craft system is ok. The repopulation is making what craft should be in games!

    There are housing for cabals.

     

    To TS, you would be an easy pick in PvP so hope you continue your 2 button smashing :)

     

    As for combat, early on I thought GW2 had better but it soon changed after getting some more skills, and hundreds of more choises then GW2, needless to say I canseled my GW2 game. TSW combat is much more fun and complex for my part atleast (the fun part, the complex part is for everyone). Seems like lots of the GW2 fanboys are there because of GW1, and tbh someone that have played GW1 and calling other games bad I cant take seriously. I played loads off mmos, GW1 is the worst ive ever tried, its even worse then Rune of Magic (I didnt think it was possible till I tried it)

  • DreddeDredde HaugesundPosts: 28Member
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr

    The combat isn't any worse than WoW/SWTOR/GW2/RIFT/LOTRO.

    Nope, its better :) (and pretty similar to GW2)

  • mrgrimrprmrgrimrpr Colorado Springs, COPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

    Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

    Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.


    Shenanigans, Still mad that SWTOR is a flop? If you think the combat is any worse than any mmo that has come out, you'd be mistaken. Bad combat? lol, people's posts are excluding quite a bit of "IMO", thus being spoken as fact. The fact is: why would you play a game if one of its big mechanics such as combat is broken?

    If this is an attempt to ward of the WoW crowd, then by all means: The combat is broken. *wink* *wink* *nudge* nudge*

     

    erm... I'm not mad.

    You, on the other hand, sound very mad. 

    Remember: flag-waving, angry fanboyism will always lose to cool-headed analysis.


    Lmfao, Not in the least bit biased are you? I'm not mad, I enjoy a good debate. But if you think your opinion is cool-headed and unbiased, and in the least bit analytical, you would be mistaken.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

    Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

    Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.


    Shenanigans, Still mad that SWTOR is a flop? If you think the combat is any worse than any mmo that has come out, you'd be mistaken. Bad combat? lol, people's posts are excluding quite a bit of "IMO", thus being spoken as fact. The fact is: why would you play a game if one of its big mechanics such as combat is broken?

    If this is an attempt to ward of the WoW crowd, then by all means: The combat is broken. *wink* *wink* *nudge* nudge*

     

    erm... I'm not mad.

    You, on the other hand, sound very mad. 

    Remember: flag-waving, angry fanboyism will always lose to cool-headed analysis.


    Lmfao, Not in the least bit biased are you? I'm not mad, I enjoy a good debate. But if you think your opinion is cool-headed and unbiased, and in the least bit analytical, you would be mistaken.

    Wait, how am I biased? Which game am I championing here? I used to play Tera and SWTOR, and WoW and Warhammer and AOC and... well the list goes on. I don't champion any of those games.

    No, I'm just criticising things that need criticising without championing or hating.

    I will be playing TSW, but I won't be fanboying it. Because fanboying is biased.

    What about you?

    image

  • mrgrimrprmrgrimrpr Colorado Springs, COPosts: 87Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by mrgrimrpr
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
     

    I agree with all of this. Right now the combat is just poor, and it is the biggest factor in why the game will die after a couple of months, once people have consumed the story content.

    Funcom needs to delay release and overhaul the entire combat system both from a PVE perspective and a PVP perspective to make the game actually fun to play in itself.

    Otheriwse, it'll just be another dead MMO to add to the ever-increasing pile and none of us want that.


    Shenanigans, Still mad that SWTOR is a flop? If you think the combat is any worse than any mmo that has come out, you'd be mistaken. Bad combat? lol, people's posts are excluding quite a bit of "IMO", thus being spoken as fact. The fact is: why would you play a game if one of its big mechanics such as combat is broken?

    If this is an attempt to ward of the WoW crowd, then by all means: The combat is broken. *wink* *wink* *nudge* nudge*

     

    erm... I'm not mad.

    You, on the other hand, sound very mad. 

    Remember: flag-waving, angry fanboyism will always lose to cool-headed analysis.


    Lmfao, Not in the least bit biased are you? I'm not mad, I enjoy a good debate. But if you think your opinion is cool-headed and unbiased, and in the least bit analytical, you would be mistaken.

    Wait, how am I biased? Which game am I championing here? I used to play Tera and SWTOR, and WoW and Warhammer and AOC and... well the list goes on. I don't champion any of those games.

    No, I'm just criticising things that need criticising without championing or hating.

    I will be playing TSW, but I won't be fanboying it. Because fanboying is biased.

    What about you?

    I'll edit my other post saying you wern't playing, thought I saw that somewhere my bad. I'm not saying that TSW is going to be the MMOJesus, no such game will exist. It has its faults. I hope the content will keep me for a while, and it will suck if the cash shop boils down to P2W. I don't like the CC, or lack of open world PvP. But, there must be a reason for constant criticism. What do you like about the game? Valid question, because I can't honestly find a post from you with anything positive to say.

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