why would anyone have fun wasting time on mechanics that are frustrating and boring? no one can tell me that they always have fun every corpse run or camping stuff for 20 hours.
the only thing i can think of is they still believe overcoming bordom and frustration is a sign of acomplishment, rather than what it it is, poor game design.
During the first few weeks of WoW was when I realized how much the "hassles" are needed in games. I was trying to find a group to kill some elite ogres and I joined this kid. We proceeded to kill the first few at the edge. Next thing I know the kid runs headlong into a pack of them killing us both. Run back and he does it again. Meaningless death zerg fest...bleh. Why play a game with an intention of dieing? Single player games if you die you end up way back at some save point (if the game even has saves). As I said before, the "hassles" aren't to cause boredom, they are there to inspire you to avoid them.
Now weight/inventory systems might not be fun, but as a crafter I do appreciate when I get a bigger bag or a higher weight reduction bag. As for Monks, they weren't allowed pretty much any weight above their weapon and armor (even money had weight) making living as a monk a very different experience. You learned to depend on friends to loot for you. Hassle to some, creative gaming to me.
1) Kiteing aka moving while casting skills: was considered a bug. And you could get banned if you exploited it.
2) Skill animation frame skips: see above
3) WASD (or arrow keys, if you prefer) was actually used to move your toon from point a to point b. Auto run was putting something on the key while you ran to the bathroom. XD
4) Auto retaliate was something only botters used?
Why these are bad:
1) Allows soloing of mobs that you shouldn't be able to solo at that level.
2) See above, also enables you to beat player type that you shouldn't be able to in normal circumstances in pvp. ie: cleric vs tank
3) Yes auto run sure is convienient, it also gets you into more trouble. Actually moving the toon on your own means you can avoid mobs and mob bosses that appear in your path. Autorun takes you by the closest path from a-->b, regardless if world boss that will chase you from here to eternity is on that path or not.
4) Auto retaliate makes it so that everyone can bot. Sure, it does make it much easier to grind for levels or grind for drop x. But if everyone is botting, then who is playing?
End result:
MMOs are dead, MSO (Massive Solo Online) is the new king. Long Live the King!
edit: One the RPG side of things, that is something I do not miss. Too many people seem to believe that "m'lord/m'lady", "thee/thou", etc ad nauseum was how everyone spoke. No, that was formal speak. Used by nobility or when speaking to nobility. Not used by common folk, thus unless your toon is nobility (lol) you aren't a lord/lady. I did make exceptions for Guild leaders, but that was it. Normal guild members are regular joes, and normal joes did not use formal speak with each other unless they were parodying the local lord/lady.
I would not call inventory mechanics any sort of depth mechanic. With that being said you keep talking about hassles. A hassle can mean many different things to many different people. Looting could be a hassle. Walking could be a hassle. Repairs could be a hassle. Buffs could be a hassle. Leveling could be a hassle. Bosses could be a hassle. Guild mates could be a hassle. Mobs could be a hassle.
This list could go on and on. You do not like to be bothered by such a mechanic. I understand that. I just think that labeling stuff as a hassle because you have limited time is just a generalization. A weight mechanic versus a space mechanic does not necessarily offer fewer trips to unload your burden. You have just latched on to that concept because you feel that one version is better than another.
Honestly, I really don't care all that much which feature is in the game. I play and determine my fun in many different ways. If time is so damn important that walking and traveling throughout my game are hassles. I wake up and take time off from the gaming. I call it a reality check.
Inventory mechanics have depth because they force a tradeoff decision of when to go to town to deal with your inventory. It's very little depth, but it's not nothing.
Weight vs. Inventory Slots both involve about the same depth (not a lot), but one requires more effort (math in a weight system.) That's the solitary reason weight systems are rare. Same depth, but with more tedium involved.
Any of the things you list will be described as hassles if there isn't sufficient depth associated with each task (although "guild mates" aren't really an activity.) Travel is definitely a hassle in many games, because there's very little (but not zero) depth to avoiding mobs on the way to your destination (and the little depth which exists doesn't remain deep for very long.)
Leveling typically involves a fair amount of depth, because it usually involves repeatedly engaging in the game's deepest gameplay (combat). If the gameplay isn't deep enough then the entire game is likely to be considered boring because that was supposed to be the game's deepest feature.
Your example of taking a break from games because they have a poor effort-to-depth ratio is exactly what any player does...that's precisely why it's a bad idea to implement mechanics which can be called "hassles".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As a packrat, I hated leaving behind anything that isn't nailed down. There's a part of me that would like to drive a cart up the front of a dungeon, go in and clear it out, then click "loot dungeon" and spend the next hour sifting through the nails and furniture, cataloguing and indentifying it, filling out gaps in my coin collection.
The way I see it, this is what the modern backpack assumes is happening in the background - it's just cutting out the back-and-forth running that I was going to do anyway and leaving out all the micromanagement of pack animals, wagons and ships. It focuses attention on actions rather than the mundane portering.
You're not an archaeologist by any chance, are you?
Originally posted by lizardbones People wanted to play the "killing monsters" game, not the "endless inventory management" game. This allowed developers to have player banks instead of player houses, which players generally found acceptable.
Right there is the problem. MMOs are only about 10% killing monester if it is a true MMO. There is much more in the world than just that.
If I wanted to play a game where all I did was kill monsters I would play a GOOD game (FPS of some sort) If I want to only battle other players I will pull out AOE2
BUT! I want to play a MMORPG! RPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would like a world to live in, f*ck killing monster after monster to get the newest gear.
You may not find a 'true' MMO for awhile unless you're willing to compromise. Play an MMORPG with some, but not all of the features you want, play on an Arma II sandbox style server or a Minecraft RPG server...that kind of thing.
Yeah, I've been "compromising" since I stop'd playing FFXI in 07' but for the last year or so I've really only been playing Minecraft (so funny you would mention it)
I wouldn't expect a return of actual encumbrance rules to most MMORPG though.
** edit ** Perpetuum has actual encumbrance limits. The weight you can carry and load onto your mech is limited by your mech's frame. This is one of the only places I would be happy to deal with encumbrance...an actual MechWarrior MMORPG. Not sure about MechWarrior Online, but a MW MMORPG? Oh yeah.
Once again, funny you would mention it, I've been following perpetuum on fb for a few months now.
I really don't care if people play MMOFPS, or they just want a themepark, or a puzzle...or whatever. I just don't like it when those players bleed over into oldschool games and complain because its to hard. I stop'd playing FFXI because it wen't easy mode..
I just want a true RPG, (fingers crossed for Archeage)
It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.
Remember eating and drinking?
Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?
Remember corpse runs?
Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?
Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?
Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you) for 15 mins and get the uber loot.
The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.
And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.
And so they disappeared.
I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see. The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.
Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc. But nah they are just hassels right? Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain. Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.
He's the type of gamer that has to buy a new game every 2-3 months because his current one got boring with nothing to do because he beaten it.
I find it odd that it is now commonplace to "beat" MMOs. Before this was unheard of. So was moving from game to game every 2 months like locust.
MMORPGs are dumbed down, lobby-based, co-Ops now. Nothing more.
It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.
Remember eating and drinking?
Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?
Remember corpse runs?
Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?
Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?
Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you) for 15 mins and get the uber loot.
The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.
And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.
And so they disappeared.
I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see. The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.
Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc. But nah they are just hassels right? Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain. Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.
How did encumbrance add depth? I already explained why it doesn't. I would like to hear how it does. It was meaningless and added nothing to the game. It didn't make the game more challenging or more interesting. It was simply there as an artificial limit to inventory. It wasn't even implemented in a realistic fashion.
I would be all for an encumbrance/weight and inventory mass system if it made sense within the game framework and added something. Depth is great. Hassle mechanics are not.
I would argue, what in a MMO isn't a hassle?
Why start at level 1 and have to spend 3 days to get to cap? why not start at max level? isn't starting at level 1 just a "artificial limit"?
Why have more then 1 set of gear for each class? I mean why have gear that "isn't as good"? isn't it just a hassle?
I don't get this "hassle" argument, Everything in a MMO is built as a time sink, leveling, class design, inventories, gear, auction houses, traveling, cooldowns
I would not call inventory mechanics any sort of depth mechanic. With that being said you keep talking about hassles. A hassle can mean many different things to many different people. Looting could be a hassle. Walking could be a hassle. Repairs could be a hassle. Buffs could be a hassle. Leveling could be a hassle. Bosses could be a hassle. Guild mates could be a hassle. Mobs could be a hassle.
This list could go on and on. You do not like to be bothered by such a mechanic. I understand that. I just think that labeling stuff as a hassle because you have limited time is just a generalization. A weight mechanic versus a space mechanic does not necessarily offer fewer trips to unload your burden. You have just latched on to that concept because you feel that one version is better than another.
Honestly, I really don't care all that much which feature is in the game. I play and determine my fun in many different ways. If time is so damn important that walking and traveling throughout my game are hassles. I wake up and take time off from the gaming. I call it a reality check.
Inventory mechanics have depth because they force a tradeoff decision of when to go to town to deal with your inventory. It's very little depth, but it's not nothing.
Weight vs. Inventory Slots both involve about the same depth (not a lot), but one requires more effort (math in a weight system.) That's the solitary reason weight systems are rare. Same depth, but with more tedium involved.
Any of the things you list will be described as hassles if there isn't sufficient depth associated with each task (although "guild mates" aren't really an activity.) Travel is definitely a hassle in many games, because there's very little (but not zero) depth to avoiding mobs on the way to your destination (and the little depth which exists doesn't remain deep for very long.)
Leveling typically involves a fair amount of depth, because it usually involves repeatedly engaging in the game's deepest gameplay (combat). If the gameplay isn't deep enough then the entire game is likely to be considered boring because that was supposed to be the game's deepest feature.
Your example of taking a break from games because they have a poor effort-to-depth ratio is exactly what any player does...that's precisely why it's a bad idea to implement mechanics which can be called "hassles".
This is one fo the reasons I loved FFXI so much, it wasn't one thing...
But bag limits added a little bit of depth
player housing added a little bit of depth
gardening added a little bit of depth
growing/raising your own mounts added a little bit of depth
having long travel times, so you hired mages to tele you. added a little bit of depth
having lots of crafting including woodworking added a little bit of depth
taking that woodworking and making furniture, which you could put in your home, added a little bit of depth
having that furniture effect your stats added a little bit of depth
having "mount" races added a little bit of depth
having armor that only fit a few classes added depth
and before you know it... you have one of the best MMO's of all time.
He's the type of gamer that has to buy a new game every 2-3 months because his current one got boring with nothing to do because he beaten it.
I find it odd that it is now commonplace to "beat" MMOs. Before this was unheard of. So was moving from game to game every 2 months like locust.
MMORPGs are dumbed down, lobby-based, co-Ops now. Nothing more.
How could you even say that? I'm asking for game depth here.
A deep game will last years.
A shallow one (one focused on the mechanics people are asking for in this thread) dies quickly because it's too easily mastered.
I do buy 3+ games per month, but that's because I'm not shackled to the MMORPG genre, love games, and work in the industry (so I need to keep up with stuff.) But out of all the games I buy, the ones I stick with are the deepest and most elegant designs (WOW, TF2, LoL, Civ4, Tribes, and surprisingly I'm liking SMNC longer than I expected to.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
fest where too much thinking causes most players to whine and quit.
i think you overestimated the amount of thinking you needed to do in old mmos.
how much skill does it take to play any of these games? not as much as people want to think they do.
i'm not sure why people say you needed more thought in older mmos, it wasn't any different than the new ones.
the new ones just require you to not have to experiment, because from out of the gate it is all spoonfed to you by websites made by people that already did the work.
of course that is how the rest of the internet is, full of information prepackaged by someone else already, in small bites for everyone to consume.
this is of course, just as planned.
I can think of some examples of thinking and planning skills needed in an older MMO that are no longer required for anything that has released recently: in AO, twinking a ridiculously high Quality Level item on a character with sub-optimal attributes for donning it at a low level. Figuring out which buffs, when, what tweeking items, what implants you had to use to boost yourself into them was a massive minigame into itself and required quite often amazing feats of juggling the combination of those three things at just the right time.
I should specify, for those who never played it, each set of buffs came from a different character profession, so you had to have at least one of each of those three professions on and willing to help you out.
The twinking minigame alone would have me planning for three days sometimes. I actually liked it since it was a break from leveling. Pre-SL, I got my Solitus engineer into her QL200 slayerbot around level 90 and I remember the oo's and aa's the players around me made when they saw me appear with him running behind me. Nowadays, I think a lot of people who never tried it would get annoyed with it in seconds.
I have done quite a bit of number crunching in some games as well as planning this and that: DAoC and the spellcrafted templates or how I was going to set up my realm abilities, playing with ship mods in EVE, organizing harvesters, blueprints and calculating a business model for my crafters in SWG, just to name a few. I haven't done any planning like that in ages and I miss that.
fest where too much thinking causes most players to whine and quit.
i think you overestimated the amount of thinking you needed to do in old mmos.
how much skill does it take to play any of these games? not as much as people want to think they do.
i'm not sure why people say you needed more thought in older mmos, it wasn't any different than the new ones.
the new ones just require you to not have to experiment, because from out of the gate it is all spoonfed to you by websites made by people that already did the work.
of course that is how the rest of the internet is, full of information prepackaged by someone else already, in small bites for everyone to consume.
this is of course, just as planned.
I can think of some examples of thinking and planning skills needed in an older MMO that are no longer required for anything that has released recently: in AO, twinking a ridiculously high Quality Level item on a character with sub-optimal attributes for donning it at a low level. Figuring out which buffs, when, what tweeking items, what implants you had to use to boost yourself into them was a massive minigame into itself and required quite often amazing feats of juggling the combination of those three things at just the right time.
I should specify, for those who never played it, each set of buffs came from a different character profession, so you had to have at least one of each of those three professions on and willing to help you out.
The twinking minigame alone would have me planning for three days sometimes. I actually liked it since it was a break from leveling. Pre-SL, I got my Solitus engineer into her QL200 slayerbot around level 90 and I remember the oo's and aa's the players around me made when they saw me appear with him running behind me. Nowadays, I think a lot of people who never tried it would get annoyed with it in seconds.
I have done quite a bit of number crunching in some games as well as planning this and that: DAoC and the spellcrafted templates or how I was going to set up my realm abilities, playing with ship mods in EVE, organizing harvesters, blueprints and calculating a business model for my crafters in SWG, just to name a few. I haven't done any planning like that in ages and I miss that.
..So what your saying is.. it was a hassle, BUT YOU ENJOYED IT?!!
I think what happened is that the "rpg" in "mmorpg" disappeared.
This sums it up nicely.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Fighting is not a hassle. Getting that new upgrade is not a hassle. Ding your level and earn new ability is not an hassle. All fun for me
For me, raiding only to get gear is a hassle. and in MOST recent MMO's combat is just bland and boring,...and doesn't really have any gameplay value.
so why are you playing a mmo?
To have fun, to be entertained, of course.
Well duh, my question was more, why do you play a MMORPG? vs. a mmofps, or a mmorts, or a fps, or a rts or a city builder etc...
I know that I fell in love with mmorpg's because of the masivly multiplayer part, combined with the role playing game. I love fantasy WORLDS I love exploring new area's I love all of the little things that make a game great, combine that with some awesome people, and you have a game I will not put down.
But now Devs are more focused on making a MSPG (Massivly Single Player Game)
Well I consider choices and decision making in non combat situations fun. This includes social structure limitations, appearance, energy/stamina management, alternate advancement systems and of cource inventory management.
I like these types of things. However, the average modern day gamer sees everything that gets in the way of combat as a nusiance and wants it to go away.
Heck, we even got rid of meaningful out of combat choices that affect your characters COMBAT permanenetly (Stats, or skill point allocation, talents). The trend is to dumb these things down too....and then we will have action games.
I want more non combat choices to make in my MMOs. Inventory management is a subset of this.
Puzzles, quests, dungeons, raids all take huge amounts of time for a developer to design, implement, test (hopefully) and launch.
Changing existing systems to have players have to think and plan ahead takes far few resources above what implementing a basic system requires.
I would love to have engrossing deep lore quests and puzzles from level 1 to max, never having to kill 10 mobs or collect 10 hides but that isn't going to happen. I don't see the difference between killing 5 mobs for 1000 exp that take 5-10 minutes to kill and killing 100 mobs in 10 minutes for the same gain. I'd prefer the more intense 5 mobs with recuperation inbetween each one but to each his own. I'd also prefer if it took a hardcore player a whole week to get to 50% max level and a whole month to get max but those days are over too it seems. Race to max and earn your price, the gear grind...i'll pass on those mmos.
It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999.
Remember eating and drinking?
Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class?
Remember corpse runs?
Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive?
Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS?
Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you) for 15 mins and get the uber loot.
The problem is games are measured based on how deep/compelling they are.
And while those mechanics often made gaming more of a hassle, they rarely added much in the way of depth.
And so they disappeared.
I couldnt disagree more, those items added depth that you just dont see. The above items you consider as "hassles" is the mentality that has slowly erroded gameplay in modern MMO's.
Others see them for what they are opportunities / planning / resourcesfullness / intelligent game choices etc. But nah they are just hassels right? Toss them out send me to end game in 3 days so I can complain. Just give me more monsters to kill bigger weapons and flashier spells.
How did encumbrance add depth? I already explained why it doesn't. I would like to hear how it does. It was meaningless and added nothing to the game. It didn't make the game more challenging or more interesting. It was simply there as an artificial limit to inventory. It wasn't even implemented in a realistic fashion.
I would be all for an encumbrance/weight and inventory mass system if it made sense within the game framework and added something. Depth is great. Hassle mechanics are not.
I would argue, what in a MMO isn't a hassle?
Why start at level 1 and have to spend 3 days to get to cap? why not start at max level? isn't starting at level 1 just a "artificial limit"?
Why have more then 1 set of gear for each class? I mean why have gear that "isn't as good"? isn't it just a hassle?
I don't get this "hassle" argument, Everything in a MMO is built as a time sink, leveling, class design, inventories, gear, auction houses, traveling, cooldowns
Maybe a huge problem with game design has been and continues to be not making a distinction between time sinks that are engaging and fun, that provide puzzles to solve and systems to interact with and shallow boring tedium.
If everything is the same hassle, you know EVERYTHING!!!!!!!1111eleventyone!!!!!, then why add or change anything? What does it matter if there is no encumbrance because another time sink has taken its place. All elements are the same right? We should be good just making a bunch of EQ clones over and over again right.
so why are you complaining about the status quo? why are *you* playing an MMO?
Soooo you didn't get the sarcasm at all...and didn't understand the point I was making, so I will say this in just plain english.
if something is fun for you. it doesn't mean its fun for someone else.
You said "I see so boring tedium is good for game design" WHO THE FRUITECAKE SAID IT WAS BORING?!!!!
See you look at one game eliment and your like "I don't enjoy it, its boring...everyone must think its boring"
Honestly in 99% of the new MMO's that have come out in the last 6 years.. I find the combat boring...its all the same. So if I think the combat is boring everyone must think its boring, and we should do away with combat.
Fighting is not a hassle. Getting that new upgrade is not a hassle. Ding your level and earn new ability is not an hassle. All fun for me
For me, raiding only to get gear is a hassle. and in MOST recent MMO's combat is just bland and boring,...and doesn't really have any gameplay value.
For you .. obviously not for the millions of players who like this kind of gameplay. Combat is fun for me. It is fun to see big numbers of damage. It is fun to be able to kill hordes of mobs. It is fun to kill bosses.
You don't like it, don't play it. But it is clear that comabt is not a hassle, and fun for many.
so why are you playing a mmo?
To have fun, to be entertained, of course.
Well duh, my question was more, why do you play a MMORPG? vs. a mmofps, or a mmorts, or a fps, or a rts or a city builder etc...
I do play mmofps, fps, action RPG and other games. There is really nothing that special about MMOs. If it is fun (for me), i will play it for a while. Many MMOs are no different than hack-n-slash co-op online games like Diablo 3 or Borderland.
I play so i can have some fun combat .. sometimes alone, sometimes with a group and progress my character.
Comments
During the first few weeks of WoW was when I realized how much the "hassles" are needed in games. I was trying to find a group to kill some elite ogres and I joined this kid. We proceeded to kill the first few at the edge. Next thing I know the kid runs headlong into a pack of them killing us both. Run back and he does it again. Meaningless death zerg fest...bleh. Why play a game with an intention of dieing? Single player games if you die you end up way back at some save point (if the game even has saves). As I said before, the "hassles" aren't to cause boredom, they are there to inspire you to avoid them.
Now weight/inventory systems might not be fun, but as a crafter I do appreciate when I get a bigger bag or a higher weight reduction bag. As for Monks, they weren't allowed pretty much any weight above their weapon and armor (even money had weight) making living as a monk a very different experience. You learned to depend on friends to loot for you. Hassle to some, creative gaming to me.
Remember when:
1) Kiteing aka moving while casting skills: was considered a bug. And you could get banned if you exploited it.
2) Skill animation frame skips: see above
3) WASD (or arrow keys, if you prefer) was actually used to move your toon from point a to point b. Auto run was putting something on the key while you ran to the bathroom. XD
4) Auto retaliate was something only botters used?
Why these are bad:
1) Allows soloing of mobs that you shouldn't be able to solo at that level.
2) See above, also enables you to beat player type that you shouldn't be able to in normal circumstances in pvp. ie: cleric vs tank
3) Yes auto run sure is convienient, it also gets you into more trouble. Actually moving the toon on your own means you can avoid mobs and mob bosses that appear in your path. Autorun takes you by the closest path from a-->b, regardless if world boss that will chase you from here to eternity is on that path or not.
4) Auto retaliate makes it so that everyone can bot. Sure, it does make it much easier to grind for levels or grind for drop x. But if everyone is botting, then who is playing?
End result:
MMOs are dead, MSO (Massive Solo Online) is the new king. Long Live the King!
edit: One the RPG side of things, that is something I do not miss. Too many people seem to believe that "m'lord/m'lady", "thee/thou", etc ad nauseum was how everyone spoke. No, that was formal speak. Used by nobility or when speaking to nobility. Not used by common folk, thus unless your toon is nobility (lol) you aren't a lord/lady. I did make exceptions for Guild leaders, but that was it. Normal guild members are regular joes, and normal joes did not use formal speak with each other unless they were parodying the local lord/lady.
Inventory mechanics have depth because they force a tradeoff decision of when to go to town to deal with your inventory. It's very little depth, but it's not nothing.
Weight vs. Inventory Slots both involve about the same depth (not a lot), but one requires more effort (math in a weight system.) That's the solitary reason weight systems are rare. Same depth, but with more tedium involved.
Any of the things you list will be described as hassles if there isn't sufficient depth associated with each task (although "guild mates" aren't really an activity.) Travel is definitely a hassle in many games, because there's very little (but not zero) depth to avoiding mobs on the way to your destination (and the little depth which exists doesn't remain deep for very long.)
Leveling typically involves a fair amount of depth, because it usually involves repeatedly engaging in the game's deepest gameplay (combat). If the gameplay isn't deep enough then the entire game is likely to be considered boring because that was supposed to be the game's deepest feature.
Your example of taking a break from games because they have a poor effort-to-depth ratio is exactly what any player does...that's precisely why it's a bad idea to implement mechanics which can be called "hassles".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You're not an archaeologist by any chance, are you?
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
I really don't care if people play MMOFPS, or they just want a themepark, or a puzzle...or whatever. I just don't like it when those players bleed over into oldschool games and complain because its to hard. I stop'd playing FFXI because it wen't easy mode..
I just want a true RPG, (fingers crossed for Archeage)
Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos
+1
Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos
I would argue, what in a MMO isn't a hassle?
Why start at level 1 and have to spend 3 days to get to cap? why not start at max level? isn't starting at level 1 just a "artificial limit"?
Why have more then 1 set of gear for each class? I mean why have gear that "isn't as good"? isn't it just a hassle?
I don't get this "hassle" argument, Everything in a MMO is built as a time sink, leveling, class design, inventories, gear, auction houses, traveling, cooldowns
EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so why are you playing a mmo?
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This is one fo the reasons I loved FFXI so much, it wasn't one thing...
But bag limits added a little bit of depth
player housing added a little bit of depth
gardening added a little bit of depth
growing/raising your own mounts added a little bit of depth
having long travel times, so you hired mages to tele you. added a little bit of depth
having lots of crafting including woodworking added a little bit of depth
taking that woodworking and making furniture, which you could put in your home, added a little bit of depth
having that furniture effect your stats added a little bit of depth
having "mount" races added a little bit of depth
having armor that only fit a few classes added depth
and before you know it... you have one of the best MMO's of all time.
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How could you even say that? I'm asking for game depth here.
A deep game will last years.
A shallow one (one focused on the mechanics people are asking for in this thread) dies quickly because it's too easily mastered.
I do buy 3+ games per month, but that's because I'm not shackled to the MMORPG genre, love games, and work in the industry (so I need to keep up with stuff.) But out of all the games I buy, the ones I stick with are the deepest and most elegant designs (WOW, TF2, LoL, Civ4, Tribes, and surprisingly I'm liking SMNC longer than I expected to.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I can think of some examples of thinking and planning skills needed in an older MMO that are no longer required for anything that has released recently: in AO, twinking a ridiculously high Quality Level item on a character with sub-optimal attributes for donning it at a low level. Figuring out which buffs, when, what tweeking items, what implants you had to use to boost yourself into them was a massive minigame into itself and required quite often amazing feats of juggling the combination of those three things at just the right time.
I should specify, for those who never played it, each set of buffs came from a different character profession, so you had to have at least one of each of those three professions on and willing to help you out.
The twinking minigame alone would have me planning for three days sometimes. I actually liked it since it was a break from leveling. Pre-SL, I got my Solitus engineer into her QL200 slayerbot around level 90 and I remember the oo's and aa's the players around me made when they saw me appear with him running behind me. Nowadays, I think a lot of people who never tried it would get annoyed with it in seconds.
I have done quite a bit of number crunching in some games as well as planning this and that: DAoC and the spellcrafted templates or how I was going to set up my realm abilities, playing with ship mods in EVE, organizing harvesters, blueprints and calculating a business model for my crafters in SWG, just to name a few. I haven't done any planning like that in ages and I miss that.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
..So what your saying is.. it was a hassle, BUT YOU ENJOYED IT?!!
(wouldn't have thought it was possible)
/sarcasm
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Breathing is a hassle and so out-dated!!1!1one
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Exactly. Thus, you do not see the need to have breathing in games.
Same as going to the toilet. Sleeping (without fast-forward) and stuff like that. Games are not supposed to be realistic.
This sums it up nicely.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I know that I fell in love with mmorpg's because of the masivly multiplayer part, combined with the role playing game. I love fantasy WORLDS I love exploring new area's I love all of the little things that make a game great, combine that with some awesome people, and you have a game I will not put down.
But now Devs are more focused on making a MSPG (Massivly Single Player Game)
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Well I consider choices and decision making in non combat situations fun. This includes social structure limitations, appearance, energy/stamina management, alternate advancement systems and of cource inventory management.
I like these types of things. However, the average modern day gamer sees everything that gets in the way of combat as a nusiance and wants it to go away.
Heck, we even got rid of meaningful out of combat choices that affect your characters COMBAT permanenetly (Stats, or skill point allocation, talents). The trend is to dumb these things down too....and then we will have action games.
I want more non combat choices to make in my MMOs. Inventory management is a subset of this.
Puzzles, quests, dungeons, raids all take huge amounts of time for a developer to design, implement, test (hopefully) and launch.
Changing existing systems to have players have to think and plan ahead takes far few resources above what implementing a basic system requires.
I would love to have engrossing deep lore quests and puzzles from level 1 to max, never having to kill 10 mobs or collect 10 hides but that isn't going to happen. I don't see the difference between killing 5 mobs for 1000 exp that take 5-10 minutes to kill and killing 100 mobs in 10 minutes for the same gain. I'd prefer the more intense 5 mobs with recuperation inbetween each one but to each his own. I'd also prefer if it took a hardcore player a whole week to get to 50% max level and a whole month to get max but those days are over too it seems. Race to max and earn your price, the gear grind...i'll pass on those mmos.
Soooo you didn't get the sarcasm at all...and didn't understand the point I was making, so I will say this in just plain english.
if something is fun for you. it doesn't mean its fun for someone else.
You said "I see so boring tedium is good for game design" WHO THE FRUITECAKE SAID IT WAS BORING?!!!!
See you look at one game eliment and your like "I don't enjoy it, its boring...everyone must think its boring"
Honestly in 99% of the new MMO's that have come out in the last 6 years.. I find the combat boring...its all the same. So if I think the combat is boring everyone must think its boring, and we should do away with combat.
Do you understand now? or should I type slower
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