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Originally posted by EricDanie We must go deeper. The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor. We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games. Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.
Now this is a complex system that actually adds depth to game play. Instead of armour just dropping you assemble your armour through pieces parts that drop from monsters.
Encumbrance in most games was nothing more than an artificial means to limit loot collection. It was never about adding an in depth system that worked with the rest of the world.
It's not like it was some huge gaming flub to have those systems, but some of them also didn't really add anything. Do people really miss encumbrance or do they just miss the idea of having in depth systems iin their game?
THis is a good point...SO many RPG elements are disappearing from games...No wonder players only stay a month or two in games nowadays......Heck even EQ has weightless coins now.
Yes, with any NEW MMO that has come out it is all about endgame, even most of the older MMO's have sped up the leveling curve. The first incarnation of WoW it took months to max level, now that same level range requires 2 weeks of casual play with a friend.
Why has this happened?
1) Companies, big and small, realized that you can attract non-gamers and casual gamers to a game and make it easy enough for them to hang around. Experience gathering is easier and anything that is not experience related is trivialized, crafting, Guilds, exploration, corpse runs The MMO's further blur the lines by using hybred characters, giving everyone a chance to heal and insta-travel, making it that much easier to gain experience over a period of time.
2) Using this model + hype, gives a company what they want a game easily accessible by all that gives instant gratification, does not take time to master and they expect high turnover and are willing to do so by offering incentives to atract new players or get old ones to come back.
3) They listened to the communities complaints and gave the gamers what they wanted, this is the fault of gamers to a degree, this is why.
a) Everyone cried about the holy trinity (fighter, cleric, crowd control) so developers made hybred characters, so everyone could do everything well enough to get by in the game.
b) Pick up groups (PUGS) were flamed by communities and forums everywhere, run over by the short bus, flamed some more, made the joke list of every forum and then beaten like a dead horse and left for dead. Developers answered the call by making games with companions(GW, SWTOR) or made them easy enough for solo play.
c) Everyone clamoured about casual players and not seeing all the content in a game, devs made the games easier, so everyone can experience everything about a game.
d) Anything that required thinking beyond mashing buttons has been trivialized crafting, weght management, exploration, race/class advantages, teamwork, housing, guilds and giuld halls.
e) This (plus sharding) led to the death of the community behind a game, if you can solo a game and every thing else is trivialized, you do not need a guild except as a vehicle for a chat room. If the companion guide on how to beat the game is printed the day the game releases, all you need is you and the book (or the website) and you do not need a guild or anyone else, except for a few bottlenecks in the game.
I honestly hope that someone builds an MMO that challenges me again......
Originally posted by grogstorm What ever happened to weight limits? Items used to weigh something and your characters were limited to the amount of weight they could carry. I remember back in the day when only the biggest and strongest characters could carry the siege equipment into the fray. Now everyone can carry the ram no matter how small or diminutive their character was. This takes away a dimension of a game that was very important for role playing and community building. We need to get this aspect back in the game. So if I want to be a loot whore, I need to make a big and bulky toon to accommodate this gameplay desire. If I want near endless endurance to sprint across an entire zone I would have to make a much smaller and nibble toon. I’m just wondering what ever happened to this aspect of character customization. Currently in most games you can have a 3 foot tall 45 pound toon that can carry as much as a 6 foot 235 pound character. And they will also have to same amount of endurance. This just seems wrong to me. If you want to be tiny, you should have disadvantages and advantages for this choice. Conversely the same for choosing a larger character. What do you think?
If you are basing your views of the importance of certain attributes on reality:
No ram that is portable by a 235 pound man is going to do anything of significance to a fortress gate.
High physical strength, for carrying things across distances is not particularly important when mules can do better. If you are basing the importance of your character on its ability to compete with the product of a horse-donkey cross breed you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Small does not equate to greater endurance.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Originally posted by GTwander Uh huh, yet every new shooter has health mechanics from Halo, leveling aspects from CoD, etc, etc. Everything is ending up samey on a per-genre level. MMOs especially. How many total genres are there again? Pretty sure I can count them on all my available digits... so in the future, it will be that many choices of games to play overall. ~and hopefully, the market will lean towards whatever titles choose to stray from the "norm" at that point.
Did you not play TF2, Tribes, or SMNC? Plenty of shooters lack Halo's health mechanics or CoD-style leveling.
I suppose "hundreds" might be a stretch for how many genres there are, but certainly it's in the 20+ range with all the subgenres of games which are considerably different. Hell, even Apple's iPhone store is ultra-casual yet manages to define 18 separate (very broad) genres which misses a ton of very specific genres of games which exist.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by NorseGod It required thinking. Thinking is outdated and so 1999. Remember eating and drinking? Remember picking a certain species for specific attributes to better min/max your class? Remember corpse runs? Remember planning with your friends how to get from a city to a dungeon across zones alive? Remember having good standing with a npc faction but couldn't go to town because your friend in the group was KOS? Get with it man, it's 2012. Wait in your city (lobby) for your que to pop and warp you to wherever you want to go. Then spam 1112311123 (or use a macro to fight for you) for 15 mins and get the uber loot.
The absolute truth.
Everybody who wants these mechanics, and who wants monsters to drop monster-appropriate items (Like dragons dropping say... dragon scales and horns) should go out and buy TWO copies of Dragon's Dogma by Capcom.
Maybe if it sells incredibly well, more games will be made with those kinds of vaguely realistic mechanics.
The game pays attention to weight, height/weight of characters, uses endurance for running/climbing and fighting, has monster-appropriate loot drops... even has short characters have shorter melee reach but smaller hitboxes to compensate.
I'm not sure I'd want EVERY game I play to be like that, but it's interesting as a change of pace!
Originally posted by EricDanieWe must go deeper.The "problem" is killing a rat and looting a two-handed sword, killing a dragon and looting a full set of shiny new armor.We should be looting scales, teeth, fangs, etc, for use in a crafting system that would be the only source of PvE equipment (exchanging PvP tokens seems perfectly fine). From that point it would become a lot easier to handle inventory logic without creating a huge hassle for players (a realistic inventory without a realistic loot system wouldn't work - you'd kill monsters for like 10 minutes and get overburdened with 5 shields on your backpack. It's the reason I love the Monster Hunter games.Anyway, we play in a MMORPG genre that barely justifies the use of the RPG anymore, there really should be a lot of differences between races even if considering only the implications of the physical differences.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is so spot on.
Man I miss those days... I think I might launch up EQ!
It not just that, the MMOs in the 90s were not as focused on getting new gear as the new are.
The main point in games like M59, UO, AC, EQ and so on was gaining more exprience/level/skills. While getting good gear was nice in all of them most time was still trying to level up (or similar if the game had no levels).
Nowadays leveling is a 3 weeks tutorial, it is all about gear. Together with the fact that they have added a lot more vendortrash you need more space and carrying capacity then.
While the games have become easier and dumbed down, this is more about that they also changed focus. "Character development" have gone the same way exploration have.
Originally posted by Meowhead Everybody who wants these mechanics, and who wants monsters to drop monster-appropriate items (Like dragons dropping say... dragon scales and horns) should go out and buy TWO copies of Dragon's Dogma by Capcom. Maybe if it sells incredibly well, more games will be made with those kinds of vaguely realistic mechanics. The game pays attention to weight, height/weight of characters, uses endurance for running/climbing and fighting, has monster-appropriate loot drops... even has short characters have shorter melee reach but smaller hitboxes to compensate. I'm not sure I'd want EVERY game I play to be like that, but it's interesting as a change of pace!
No I would not want EVERY game to be like that. Maybe not even most of game. Still it is really irritiating that no no-old or no-inide mmorpg is like that. Not even one.
Do not want to play some old or indie or f2p niche crap game to have those mechanics.
As for Dragon Dogma if It ever comes to PC as decent made port I will buy it. Don't have console and do not plan to own one.
Originally posted by chefdiabloOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by WizardryI agree mr GT wonder,so many new gamers havbe been playing really cheap games and got in the nabit of just button mashing with no meaning.Us older gamers have seen how all those in depth ideas can add a lot of meaning to game play.FFXI is one of those games that covered a lot of those areas but the only weight idea was in the weapons.That however added a LOT of strategy and versatility to weapon selections.FFXi's storage system definitely worked to curb RMT boitters.You see if you allow massive storage with no care ,be it weight or not,RMT will just sit there in auto bot and load up.In FFXI you have very little bagg space,you had to earn the extra space and RMT are usually not into actually playing a game,so it screwed them over.They did however figure ways around it by just having extra players sit there and act as transporters.Sadly when i read MANY excuses,it sounds like a lot of lazy people who really do not want a RPG,so i wonder why they are bothering to hang out in one?This is probably also why we see so many new games get a ton of people ,then they all quit.I beleive most game system designers are passionate,but they are cutting corners to make game development shorter and make a higher profit.
Most people welcome with open arms any changes that makes life easier. Many of these easier, less cumbersome games are not replacing the absent challenge with anything new.
I might very well be a minority but I still want to have some challenges while I play my games. I am not suggesting that they be annoying to the degree of pointless but whether it is a weight issue, or a bag space issue the choice will have to be made.
Personally I favor the concept where the weight of the items you are wearing also affect your speed and attack abilities. Cloth wearing characters should be faster than plate wearing players. We read about how people want their choices to affect the game, but then we also want to keep those choices limited to other areas of the game because it is easier.
Easier and faster are two of the most important factors for a majority of players.
oh yeah corpse runs...just so much of a good time all around, trying to get your corpse at 3 am on a work day from lower guk, yeah that was just plain awesome.
what is fun about having to plan how to get from one zone to another again? i'm not saying i don't like exploration but that isn't exploration that is an exercize in bordom and frustration. now that you can basically perma invis in eq, they randomly added mobs that see through it, that is not fun.
oh yeah i sure loved having to waste my time trying to get my group members past gaurds because you couldn't fix faction on some of them, instead of having fun.
being a vet of eq1 and eq2 with all of those mechanics, i hate them to the core.
call me an instant gratification loser all day long, it won't change the fact that i expect more from my games than lazy road blocks and horrible outdated mechanisms designed by mascists
the only reason i even enjoyed those games dispite the mechanisms i hate is because what i got otherwise made me overlook them.
those games have moved on and so have i, why can't you guys?
edit: one thing to point out, if anyone remembers, most of this stuff and other mechanisms in eq were used to promote how much better later mmos were.
DAoC was promoted as removing the horrible things eq had, and so did WoW.
in fact i would say a ton of people left because of the mechanisms some people posting on this thread seem to love, what does that say about the possiblity of a game being made with those mechanisms?
it would never happen, because it would be a failure.
Not sure about return of corpse runs - but I could live with them again I think.
Everything else - yeah I do miss them.
I would go even further.
- Remember having diffrent kind of arrows? Like arrows made for bleeding wounds, arrows made for penetrating heavy knight's armors. Posioned arrows, fire arrows, etc I miss it.
- STAMINA - damn that was good mechanic. Made you think and PLAN how to fight, move, jump or run.
With current tech I would like to see implementation of things like:
- HEAVY RAIN making movements harder, slower using more stamina - after a certain time and making it worse the longer you are in the heavy rain. When leather armor or even parts of chain mail / some non-plate parts of plate armor are totally soaked they are preety hard / tiring to move in.
- WIND - affecting arrows or possibly even projectile magic so you have to take it into consideration when using those.
- SNOW - affecting moves, running
- ICE - having to control movement of your character better / more carefully because you can fall, etc
Damn possiblities are endless - that's what just came to my head in like 5 minutes.
More fun, more realistic, more mini-games into a game.
Today's mmorpg's are too simple, boring, conveniant and with reduced thinking & managment & planning.
Just a note - NOT EVERY mmorpg should be like that.
I am actually SURE than not even MOST of them should be like that. Since many players just don't find those appealing or interesting.
Still I think many of older mechanics and ideas for possible mechanics were 'thrown out like baby with the bath-water" INSTEAD of thinking them better and implementing them better.
Many (most?) of ideas from early mmorpg's were not bad - they were just not implemented good enough.
Kinda not surpising since those were "virgin" implementations.
Current mmorpg devs could use older experiences and solutions and avoid making mistakes in implementations.
MMOs now are for 8-12yo. There are limitations to what they can do.
A honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Originally posted by demongoat
Every inconvenience is a game for someone else.
Something totally unfun for you may be very fun for someone else.
I don't understand why it is so hard to understand.
Saying this that NOT ALL old mmorpg mechanics were good.
That would be most challanging to developers which one to implement and which one to not implement.
Also which one of mechanics ideas to implement but diffrently.
Originally posted by grogstorm What ever happened to weight limits?
Replaced by inventory slots. Two answers to (essentially) the same basic design question.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by fenistil Saying that not ALL old mmorpg mechanics were good. That would be most challanging to developers which one to implement and which one to not implement. Also which one of mechanics ideas to implement but diffrently.
Well that's good, because when we choose similar mechanics to another, older game we call the newer games "clones" and fling monkey-poo at them. Ook ook.
Unless it's a mechanic the industry (in general) already gave up on a decade ago. Then we write poems to it and bemoan its demise.
Gamers are only too filled with contradictions.
Originally posted by kikoodutroa8 I think what happened is that the "rpg" in "mmorpg" disappeared.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by fenistil Saying that not ALL old mmorpg mechanics were good. That would be most challanging to developers which one to implement and which one to not implement. Also which one of mechanics ideas to implement but diffrently.
Roses are red, violets are blue, picking up and dropping items, how I loved you!
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldonLove Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Maybe it is cause I've not got enough sleep - but I don't get you.
Think you're overanalyzing this.
I can tell only about myself, but truth is real simple.
1. I also embraced simpler, more conveniant mechanics that came with WoW and later games (like i.e. Lotro) and I HAD FUN with them. I really had, never said otherwise.
2. After playing such games for few years - I became bored of them. Convenience appeal weared off and once again I am attracted to less covneniant, more demanding solutions / mechanics.
3. People always long for a change after a while. Even if this change is not really a change or true 100% innovation, but partial return and redoing old ideas.
Propably if I would play mmorpg that sacrificed some conveniance i spite of more 'virtual world mechanics / micromanaging' for a few years, then I would long for more conveniant mmorpg again.
That is just natural and seriously I am surprised that someone would see this as anything unusual.
The problem nowadays is the game makers are trying to figure out how to make it easier instead of how to make it more challenging......One thing we're forgetting with weight management is how in the world do we carry several backpacks full of stuff and still fight??.....It isnt just the weight, but the sheer amount (I have how many bear skins on me?) that we have on us.
Originally posted by fenistil 3. People always long for a change after a while. Even if this change is not really a change or true 100% innovation, but partial return and redoing old ideas.
Yes, they do. Not to drag forth yet another label, but we call them "reactionaries". You most often find them standing on their lawns, waving their canes at the damned kids.
But they aren't the problem. The problem is the rhetoric often (in the same day!!) endorses argumentum ad antiquitatem and ad novitatem, and no one sees the inherent contradiction.
Is "cloning" mechanics from "the olde days" good, or bad?
Originally posted by redcloud16 I personally found encumberance to be one of the more moronic game systems. I love role playing and I am by no means one of the instant gratification crowd, but I am playing a game. I have no intention of playing a reality simulation. There are certain real life trappings I simply do not want to have to deal with. But to each his own.
I agreee with this. I really don't want to have "eating" or "sleeping" in the game. I prefer those things to do in real life, not in the game.
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