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Why is crafting always the same?

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  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    Well now there's your problem, while your idea isn't bad, I'd rather see the best items come from crafters while raids/quests could drop the high end materials needed by crafters to make them.

    In EVE most of the the best gear is almost always crafted. (not sure about all officer gear though)

     

     

    Same thing with crafting in Mortal Online.  In fact, almost all the gear used in the game is crafted by players.  Personally, I prefer that, in that it creates a real need for crafters, and a meaningful economy, making a gameworld seem more varied.

     

    And no one plays Mortal Online. Using games like this as some type of measuring stick is ridiculous. 

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member
    Originally posted by Vutar
     

     

    And no one plays Mortal Online. Using games like this as some type of measuring stick is ridiculous. 

    pretty old killerphrase.

    the assumption, that nobody plays MO due to the player driven economy, is more than ridiculous. there are tons of reasons, why people dont play MO. pvp-ffa-everywhere, just to name the most important one. and no, you dont need pvp-ffa for a player driven economy.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    well, I thijnk one of the reasons is the Click->make an item is so much easier and quicker than:  Raid->Clear trash->kill boss->RNG no drop....Wait until next week to try again......

  • wolfmannwolfmann TerraakPosts: 1,159Member
    Originally posted by Vutar

    Ya good call. Creating cosmetic items would clealry make crafters useless. Which is why cash shops are popping up in every MMO selling cosmetic gear. Clearly the dev's are just latching onto a failed idea that no one will buy. As for your remark about me only playing themepark MMO's, I'll just say LOL and leave you in your own little world. 

     

     

    No, the reason for that is that the devs have learned:

    • Cosmetics sell, because there are alot of people that RP's or care for how they look.
    • Anything else, that would influence the PvP or PvE game... Would cause a shitstorm of epic proportions, as PvP and PvE players do NOT like to pay for their game. Oh and they don't care for the RP'ers.

     

    So cosmetics sell...

    Wich means if a dev "allows" players to be the main supplier of those supercool looking wearables and hairdos and moustaches and bigger booblets... Well, there goes their paycheck when they open their cash shop. And they need that paycheck to be able to build that new raid or pvp battlefield... Again, since no one is willing to pay for those.

    imageThe last of the Trackers

  • AilingforaleAilingforale Bellevue, WAPosts: 87Member

    Maybe they just need a mixture of different crafting ideas.  You could have pve drops and the like, but how about adding a bit of randomness to the crafting like UO did.  You'd have to get differnt types of tools that give different buffs to the gear, but it was never a promised buff.  I love the idea of making cosmetic stuff as well.  It just seems to be a fad to sell this stuff for real money now which is both kind of neat and also lame...

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wolfmann
    Originally posted by Vutar

    Ya good call. Creating cosmetic items would clealry make crafters useless. Which is why cash shops are popping up in every MMO selling cosmetic gear. Clearly the dev's are just latching onto a failed idea that no one will buy. As for your remark about me only playing themepark MMO's, I'll just say LOL and leave you in your own little world. 

     

     

    No, the reason for that is that the devs have learned:

    • Cosmetics sell, because there are alot of people that RP's or care for how they look.
    • Anything else, that would influence the PvP or PvE game... Would cause a shitstorm of epic proportions, as PvP and PvE players do NOT like to pay for their game. Oh and they don't care for the RP'ers.

     

    So cosmetics sell...

    Wich means if a dev "allows" players to be the main supplier of those supercool looking wearables and hairdos and moustaches and bigger booblets... Well, there goes their paycheck when they open their cash shop. And they need that paycheck to be able to build that new raid or pvp battlefield... Again, since no one is willing to pay for those.

     

    Subscription based games do not need cash shop. They simply use it to milk the customer base of more money.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak
    Originally posted by Vutar
     

     

    And no one plays Mortal Online. Using games like this as some type of measuring stick is ridiculous. 

    pretty old killerphrase.

    the assumption, that nobody plays MO due to the player driven economy, is more than ridiculous. there are tons of reasons, why people dont play MO. pvp-ffa-everywhere, just to name the most important one. and no, you dont need pvp-ffa for a player driven economy.

     

    Nothing old about it. Simply the truth. Don't get upset at me that MO's population is so low. Tell them to make a better game and people will play it.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Vutar In most MMO's today they don't need your weapons/armor either. That is my point. You are already at the mercy of the auction house but not only the auction house, also the devs upgrading crafted armor stats.
    I am usually my own customer.  I usually end up making a network of alts to cover all the crafts and harvesting and then play as a self-contained community as much as possible.

    ( I'm not trying to discourage thinking outside the box, I'm just giving my honest assessment of how I feel I would react to a system like this; however I don't have a good sense of how commonly people play the way I do - I might well be so strange and rare as to be worth ignoring )



    I'm in your corner, maplestone. I do not enjoy playing the market or buying/selling. I craft for my own personal use and make many alts to help me be self-sufficient.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    Same reason every game uses levels, quests, cooldowns and trinity combat: Lack of innovation.

    There are so many different ways to handle crafting, experiences and other mechanics but most devs just copy the currently most successful game in the wild hope that they might take some players from it.

  • SilverminkSilvermink Cape Coral, FLPosts: 289Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by maplestone

    Originally posted by Vutar In most MMO's today they don't need your weapons/armor either. That is my point. You are already at the mercy of the auction house but not only the auction house, also the devs upgrading crafted armor stats.
    I am usually my own customer.  I usually end up making a network of alts to cover all the crafts and harvesting and then play as a self-contained community as much as possible.

     

    ( I'm not trying to discourage thinking outside the box, I'm just giving my honest assessment of how I feel I would react to a system like this; however I don't have a good sense of how commonly people play the way I do - I might well be so strange and rare as to be worth ignoring )


    I'm in your corner, maplestone. I do not enjoy playing the market or buying/selling. I craft for my own personal use and make many alts to help me be self-sufficient.

     


    I'm the exact opposite. I love to play the market. Love to make lots of stuff to sell. I don't do much buy/sell but I do buy and sell large quantities of mats. I will buy items mistakenly (or naively) priced way to low, especially if i have a similar item to sell at the same time. I'm hoping GW2 will live up to their promise of stat balance between crafted and droppped items. I have seen so far that quest rewards aren't as plentiful as some other games. Vanguard had a cool stat on their players website...items in use...how many of items you made people were using.

    I am an altaholic though. I will make alts to cover most crafting skills but I don't usually invest enough time to max them all.  I get close. Often maxing all trades(recpipes, not just numbers) takes an inordinate amount of time.

  • uohaloranuohaloran ., GAPosts: 811Member

    Because crafting isn't considered important to developers when all the playerbase does is whine about wanting a new raid or a new dungeon.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    Not a bad idea, but I prefer games where its a bit more logical and crafting actually simply needs input from raiding.

    Say you have to kill dragon raid bosses in order to craft dragon armor.

    Or you have to kill a Tarrasque in order to make the best sword blades, since those are made from the teeth of tarrasques.

    I can see how a dragon would of course have a hoard with valueable magic items, and a Tarrasque might have a lot of stuff in their stomach, though.

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member

    in a simple economy its easy to be self-sufficient and still not participate in the economy. in a complex economy like EVE it is possible theoretically, but would be very inefficient. you would waste a ton of money. so i doubt a lot of guys do it in a complex economy, because it would be a pain in the a$$. my conclusion: most crafting systems are too simple and missing the complexity of a full blown economy in the back. its all about economy, not about crafting. crafting is just a small piece of the real big feature.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member

    Because every game focuses so much of their effort into the combat anything not combat is half ass and tossed in at the end to appease people.

    I like your idea but it isn't any type of fix to the real issue.  If you want to help fix the real issue put back in item destruction.  Make it so gear grinding isn't what the end game is all about.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by uohaloran

    Because crafting isn't considered important to developers when all the playerbase does is whine about wanting a new raid or a new dungeon.

    Nothing wrong if combat gameplay is what player wants.

    Personally, i play MMOs for dungeon adventures, not crafting.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    no no no no no

    I enjoy the process of crafting but if there isnt any benifit to it then I am likely to not do it.

    what is up with all these ideas that have zero impact to actual game play. I am not going to craft so you can have cool looking threads...f8ck that noise.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • GrixxittGrixxitt New Orleans, LAPosts: 543Member

    Crafting is only unnecessary if gear lasts forever and is unlootable.

     

    Also, question of "Why is crafting always the same?" is kind of silly.

    EVERYTHING is always the same because various game devs have been remaking the same exact MMO for the last 10+ years.

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    I always like to craft in MMO's, and am disappointed in recent releases. To me, the best crafting system is part of a world where the best items come from crafters ONLY.

    Take Ryzom crafting: no drops are weapons or armor, they are all mats needed to make weapons and armor. You can buy mats, and even weapons and armor, from vendors, but those are alway inferior.

    Every single decent item, is made by crafters, from mats that have to be collected by harvesting.

    Another interesting example is Pirates of the Burning Sea. Every single item is crafted by somebody.

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • froakakhanfroakakhan Las Vegas, NVPosts: 4Member

    a little before launch, EQ2 was looking to have the best crafting system i have seen to date.  the only thing that would have put it over the top was to merge it with SWGs resource quality mechanics.  it was a reactive system, there were events that would pop up and you had to counter them with crafting abilities somewhat like a mini game.   a few professions that delt with dangerous stuff (fire/chemical) could actually die if you muffed up a critical one. 

    also you actually relied on other crafters to be able to craft equipment.  alchemists made tempers for metalworkers and ink for scribes, metalworkers made nails for carpenters, tailors made padding for armor etc etc.  it would take about 12 combines total including sub components to make a piece of armor and it actually took some skill to create the best quality items.  at launch you actually saw people in the crafting areas communicating, working together, and selling minor components. 

    of course the player base was up in arms about this.  how dare they make it somewhat challenging and have you rely on/interact with other people in an online social game with a player driven economy.  the entire system was nerfed into oblivion and now in its place is the most borring grindfest system.

    this to me sums up the single greatest problem with any modern MMO.  the lack of relying on other people.  the level of community, friends, guilds that OG games had (no i dont consider wow OG) kept me playing.  the friends that i made in EQ1 i would give a lung for if it came to that.  cant even come close to saying the same for any game i've played since.  heck i cant even remember most of the people in my guilds in recent games.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by froakakhan

    a little before launch, EQ2 was looking to have the best crafting system i have seen to date.  the only thing that would have put it over the top was to merge it with SWGs resource quality mechanics.  it was a reactive system, there were events that would pop up and you had to counter them with crafting abilities somewhat like a mini game.   a few professions that delt with dangerous stuff (fire/chemical) could actually die if you muffed up a critical one. 

    also you actually relied on other crafters to be able to craft equipment.  alchemists made tempers for metalworkers and ink for scribes, metalworkers made nails for carpenters, tailors made padding for armor etc etc.  it would take about 12 combines total including sub components to make a piece of armor and it actually took some skill to create the best quality items.  at launch you actually saw people in the crafting areas communicating, working together, and selling minor components. 

    of course the player base was up in arms about this.  how dare they make it somewhat challenging and have you rely on/interact with other people in an online social game with a player driven economy.  the entire system was nerfed into oblivion and now in its place is the most borring grindfest system.

    this to me sums up the single greatest problem with any modern MMO.  the lack of relying on other people.  the level of community, friends, guilds that OG games had (no i dont consider wow OG) kept me playing.  the friends that i made in EQ1 i would give a lung for if it came to that.  cant even come close to saying the same for any game i've played since.  heck i cant even remember most of the people in my guilds in recent games.

    a lot of truth here.

    So for example if crafting for better items where not there everything would be fine. People would adventure out in the field with the equiptment the game had and progress as they would progress. As soon as you add 'ok well this feature allows you to have better gear then you would otherwise' then people consider it a requirement to have it and complain if they cant get it fairly easily.

    its a shame really

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    I agree that there has not been much innovation in crafting for some time.

    On the other hand, I do not like the idea that crafting would produce only cosmetic upgrades.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I don't do raids and enjoy crafting (usually), so it's not wasted for me - it's usually my endgame.

    It seems a different flavor of answer for "what to do with myself now".

    In the end, that's all players really need from a mature game--as many and broad a variety of answers to that question as possible.  Sandbox, themepark, different answers to the same basic problems.

    Not surprisingly, gamers tend to wear out one answer over time, and set off seeking another.  Or many others.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I don't do raids and enjoy crafting (usually), so it's not wasted for me - it's usually my endgame.

    It seems a different flavor of answer for "what to do with myself now".

    In the end, that's all players really need from a mature game--as many and broad a variety of answers to that question as possible.  Sandbox, themepark, different answers to the same basic problems.

    Not surprisingly, gamers tend to wear out one answer over time, and set off seeking another.  Or many others.

    this is similar to the housing conversation. I like crafting, but if my crafted items do not have a greater context in the rest of the game I am not going to craft because there is no point in it.

    Just like housing, there is a difference between a sword with stats and a vanity pet with no stats and I know people know this, they just arent concious of it.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SilverminkSilvermink Cape Coral, FLPosts: 289Member

    EQ2's crafting was changed as much for the imbalances as the difficulty. Just about every other craft depended on Alchemy. This forced everyone to either roll alts or buy from the way overpriced AH. I liked the previous system, but when 1 craft can make fortunes making piddly subcombines something's wrong.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    When I used to post  a lot here about how to design a cool MMO I had some pretty complex crafting that people really liked and which had a lot of SWG inspiration. However the chance of a big studio making such an MMO is 0.

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