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Why is crafting always the same?

VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon

In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

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Comments

  • Elitekill4Elitekill4 BirminghamPosts: 99Member

    Because a lot of people are going to (or would, rather) rage about how long it takes to grind certain gear and they want to get it the andy-pandy way. I concur with your idea however.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I don't do raids and enjoy crafting (usually), so it's not wasted for me - it's usually my endgame.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone

    I don't do raids and enjoy crafting (usually), so it's not wasted for me - it's usually my endgame.

     

    And it still would be in my system. The gear you craft would simply not have stats. In fact business would likely be better for you as a crafter since the stuff you make would not be out of date so fast. Raiders/pvper's/questers would always be needing new armor skins for their acquired items.

  • eykosurfeykosurf North Shore, HIPosts: 14Member

    SWG had a good crafting system ... well, at least in concept.  Not only did you have a focus on crafting as general gameplay, but crafters created some of the better items.

    Additionally, people could loot components that would provide better materials.  I believe this led to a decent balance for those players who wanted to crawl through dungeons (e.g. the Geonosian Cave), while still providing viable options for the crafting community.

    While I've rarely bothered with crafting myself, I still like to see a good crafting feature set.  I believe craftng helps round-out an MMO in particular; preventing sole design around dungeon crawling or singular PvP play.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Vutar
     Raiders/pvper's/questers would always be needing new armor skins for their acquired items.

    Ah, but they wouldn't need *my* armor skins.  Your idea puts me at the mercy of auction houses - and being a merchant just isn't my cup of tea (especially when competing with scripters, powergamers and people just throwing their surplus side-game crafts away).

    (I'm basing this opinion largely off my experience with crafting and market dynamics of UO which has large numbers of decorative craftables)

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,743Member Uncommon

        It really depends on the MMO....I've played alot where crafting was absolutely critical (Ryzom, Eternal Lands, Istaria, Wurm, etc)...... It does seem though that most of the modern themeparks it is a complete waste of time.

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon

    For the AAA MMO's the publishers want to get rid of anything that costs money to maintain. Housing, crafting, etc...  Just gut em or cut em.  If the players are paying and just fighting, it's all good.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,405Member Uncommon

    On my old SWG server, stryker and Pope made the best weapons. Even after 7+ years, I still remember their names. I can't remember any crafter's name in any other game.

     

    SWG has and will always be my favorite crafting experience.

     

    The best crafters on the server were well known. The best crafters were on top of their game, e.g., first to find the best resource location for most potent weapons and armor, etc.

     

    These days, crafting is like Battlegrounds or Instanced PvP...    VERY LAZY and WITHOUT INNOVATION.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by Vutar
     Raiders/pvper's/questers would always be needing new armor skins for their acquired items.

    Ah, but they wouldn't need *my* armor skins.  Your idea puts me at the mercy of auction houses - and being a merchant just isn't my cup of tea (especially when competing with scripters, powergamers and people just throwing their surplus side-game crafts away).

    (I'm basing this opinion largely off my experience with crafting and market dynamics of UO which has large numbers of decorative craftables)

     

    In most MMO's today they don't need your weapons/armor either. That is my point. You are already at the mercy of the auction house but not only the auction house, also the devs upgrading crafted armor stats. There would be plenty of demand for skins in my system becuase all other forms of gear acquisition results in stats on gear but also very drab gear. They only way to look "cool" would be through buying crafted gear. Also how many of your recipes are completely outdated with a new xpac/patch? With my idea ALL of the recipes would be viable for the life of the game. 3 years in someone may want to revisit a look from launch etc. 

    The system may not be perfect, but I am trying to think outside the box. Crafting is consistenly losing the battle when it comes to acquiring gear. To keep it viable I really think it needs to embrace a new direction.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,994Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    Well now there's your problem, while your idea isn't bad, I'd rather see the best items come from crafters while raids/quests could drop the high end materials needed by crafters to make them.

    In EVE most of the the best gear is almost always crafted. (not sure about all officer gear though)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • FangrimFangrim PrestonPosts: 589Member

    Well in EQ2 there are many abilities that crafters can also make better,Jewelers make scout abilities,Sages Priest& mage,Alchemists Fighter.This is why its the best mmorpg ever because of just getting an ability and being the same as every person of the same class you can make your toon better.Not this 'new wave' of one hotbar ability 5 button bullcrap mmo with 'action combat'.I can in fact judge wether an mmo is worth playing just by looking at its implemented crafting.

    Gnome Wankers two.After the events of 18/07/2015 i fucking hate anyone that has anything to do with skyforge
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  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In most MMO's today they don't need your weapons/armor either. That is my point. You are already at the mercy of the auction house but not only the auction house, also the devs upgrading crafted armor stats.

    I am usually my own customer.  I usually end up making a network of alts to cover all the crafts and harvesting and then play as a self-contained community as much as possible.

    ( I'm not trying to discourage thinking outside the box, I'm just giving my honest assessment of how I feel I would react to a system like this; however I don't have a good sense of how commonly people play the way I do - I might well be so strange and rare as to be worth ignoring )

  • MathizsiasMathizsias Den HaagPosts: 16Member

    Dark Age of Camelot had the perfect balance, where you simply need crafters to get your 'endgame' gearset, but will not be optimized if you rely on crafted gear only, you're nearly always better off with a balanced mix of pve drops and crafted gear optimized with spellcrafting (sort of like enchanting).

    Even though a lot of people cheated their way to the highest levels of cheating, it used to be a real achievement for somebody to max out their crafting stat. Crafters would gain some fame and selling crafting services was a really good way to make money.

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    In a themepark game - and it looks like that's all what you have played - crafting is always in conflict with gear acquisition via raids. It seems you want to "solve" the problem by making crafters even more useless by only creating "cosmetic items". I can assure you that many people playing crafters won't see creating "cosmetic items" as something they would play a game for. 

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • VutarVutar BaghdadPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Larsa
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    In a themepark game - and it looks like that's all what you have played - crafting is always in conflict with gear acquisition via raids. It seems you want to "solve" the problem by making crafters even more useless by only creating "cosmetic items". I can assure you that many people playing crafters won't see creating "cosmetic items" as something they would play a game for. 

     

    Ya good call. Creating cosmetic items would clealry make crafters useless. Which is why cash shops are popping up in every MMO selling cosmetic gear. Clearly the dev's are just latching onto a failed idea that no one will buy. As for your remark about me only playing themepark MMO's, I'll just say LOL and leave you in your own little world. 

     

  • DaezAsterDaezAster new york, NYPosts: 803Member

    Well I woud love crafting to be a mini game. Have to time the anvil strikes right and what not. Whats the point of playing just a crafter if all your doing is clicking menu options and watching loading bars fill up. Does anyone find that fun, I personally don't...

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    Well now there's your problem, while your idea isn't bad, I'd rather see the best items come from crafters while raids/quests could drop the high end materials needed by crafters to make them.

    In EVE most of the the best gear is almost always crafted. (not sure about all officer gear though)

     

     

    Same thing with crafting in Mortal Online.  In fact, almost all the gear used in the game is crafted by players.  Personally, I prefer that, in that it creates a real need for crafters, and a meaningful economy, making a gameworld seem more varied.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Vutar

    In every MMO i've played tradeskills create gear or enchance gear with stats. This often leads to crafting being useless as the best items are found in raids/quests. I wonder why crafting continues down this path with every MMO. Why not make it so that crafting creates completely cosmetic items only. Make normal armor from quests/raid and such give stats but look drab. Then have crafters create the skins for everything, weapons, armor, etc.  This would eliminate the need to balance crafting stats wise with other forms of gear acquisition but leave in place the value of crafting. Looks matter to the majority of people and so crafting of weapon/armor skins would be in demand.

    I could see a lot of possibility with a system like this.

    not all games are like this, the items created in crafting are sometimes made for the same tier as items found only in raids/dungeons. They really need to make close to equivolent gear for crafting equivolent to the dungeons (not necessarily raids) so that casuals can have some decent gear beyond what the quests give. They don't need the same gear as raiders but they do need something better. There are many many more casuals then there are hardcore btw that's why they do that.

    also, have you seen crafting in most games even those that are coming out soon? cosmetics is coming to everything. GW2 is all cosmetics essentially because the stats on gear is so insignificant that it doesn't really make much difference. 

    The problem isn't balancing stats the problem is the dev teams of most games, they just don't move fast enough. They seriously need to take a page from Trion's book and earn their subscription fee by being efficient and focused on making their game fun. Most gaming companies don't do that, they only care if their sub numbers are bleeding.

    LOTRO switched some time ago, they have cosmetics and regular gear. Like one can make First Age LI's now, which is nice for casuals because the rest of their stuff to craft (that i've seen so far) for armor and jewelry is all skirmish equivolent (which is their dungeons not raids). so one could have a raid style weapon and a dungeon set by gathering the mats. Makes it more fun for the rest if the largest part of the community.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Vutar

    [snip]

     

     

    Same thing with crafting in Mortal Online.  In fact, almost all the gear used in the game is crafted by players.  Personally, I prefer that, in that it creates a real need for crafters, and a meaningful economy, making a gameworld seem more varied.

    I like that idea that's awesome, they definitely need to do this in every game, even if some of the items one needs to craft are retrieved from dungeons/raids only and are tradeable but not sellable in the AH. that would keep the tiny portion of the populous the hardcore elite happy and allow the rest if the larger pve community, the casuals, have better end game gear....if the game does have an end game that is.

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 603Member Uncommon

    Your idea just isnt that novel. You said yourself cash shops benefit from vanity items, in which case they are in competition with crafted items. You didn't address the key fundamental that crafting centric games like MO or fallout have intrinsic crafting game mechanics. What you suggest is a cookie cutter mmo with a minimally changed crafting repetoire.

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member

    A meaningful crafting works best based on a player driven economy. And economy means much more than just crafting some stuff based on receipes. Unfortunately this sandbox element is in conflict to more than one basic design paradigm of the theme-park model e.g. Refining/Regulation and Accessability. So i do not expect to see a meaningful crafting in a theme-park. Its actually pretty seldom. Usually in a theme-park, the economy is not a full blown emancipated game, equal to combat & questing.

    the idea with the cosmetic items doesnt solve the basic issue, because it does not constitute a full blown economy.

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  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 949Member Uncommon

    It all goes back to Richard Bartle and his idea of the four types of Mud (MMO) gamers ( Killer Socializer Explorer Achiever ).

    Killer type players don't want to be at the mercy of Crafters ( socializer ) for gear or anything ( ie. buffs, or consumables ).  These players will either roll their own alts as crafters to by pass the entire crafting community or demand a PvP or PvE alternative source.  Or supprt a guild member as an alt crafter.  This is why the system is as it is right now PvP > PvE > Crafted > NPC vendor.

    Look at SWG, this game had stat based combat gear and non-stat cosmetic gear.  The non-stat gear was ignored in favor of the stat based gear.  Some players locked themselves in their gear rather than wear cosmetic gear.  If gear required buffs to stats just to equip.  Then once the buff wore off, the player could remain in the gear and not receive the stats of the gear.  There by locking themselves inside the gear, rather than switching to a non-stat requiring or buffing cosmetic item.

    Any call for a strong crafting system or cosmetic gear will be fought by strong killer type gamers who refuse to be burdened or affected by the Social gamers aspect of gaming.

    The idea that crafting is limited by developer or theme park is false.  it is limited solely by PvP & PvE ( Killer ) type gamers.  Switching to sandbox will not affect their play style.

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  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    I'd personally love to see crafting implemented in a cooking mama style. image

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member
    Originally posted by Konfess

    The idea that crafting is limited by developer or theme park is false.  it is limited solely by PvP & PvE ( Killer ) type gamers.  Switching to sandbox will not affect their play style.

    i agree, that there are players, that dont like to depend on others and either make alts instead of socializing. but who cares?

    in a player driven economy there will just drop 2nd class items or even worse. mostly just good enough to salvage for ressources. quest rewards are mostly money and other stuff but not uber-items. and exactly this is what a theme-park dev does not like, because he has to give a player in questhub 1 all the stuff he needs to manage questhub2 (mikromanagment). in a player driven economy, handholding becomes much more tricky.

    and i never saw more killers like in EVE. and EVE has perhaps the best working economy of all games out there. so no, the opposite is the truth. Killers are the best customers of crafters, because they die a lot and loose their stuff and they destroy other peoples stuff. thats great! Crafters love Killers.

    of course you need great mechanics like item loss/destroy and item decay. again something theme-park developers dont like, because it makes kiddy sad. 

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
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  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Konfess

    It all goes back to Richard Bartle and his idea of the four types of Mud (MMO) gamers ( Killer Socializer Explorer Achiever ).

    Killer type players don't want to be at the mercy of Crafters ( socializer ) for gear or anything ( ie. buffs, or consumables ).  These players will either roll their own alts as crafters to by pass the entire crafting community or demand a PvP or PvE alternative source.  Or supprt a guild member as an alt crafter.  This is why the system is as it is right now PvP > PvE > Crafted > NPC vendor.

    Look at SWG, this game had stat based combat gear and non-stat cosmetic gear.  The non-stat gear was ignored in favor of the stat based gear.  Some players locked themselves in their gear rather than wear cosmetic gear.  If gear required buffs to stats just to equip.  Then once the buff wore off, the player could remain in the gear and not receive the stats of the gear.  There by locking themselves inside the gear, rather than switching to a non-stat requiring or buffing cosmetic item.

    Any call for a strong crafting system or cosmetic gear will be fought by strong killer type gamers who refuse to be burdened or affected by the Social gamers aspect of gaming.

    The idea that crafting is limited by developer or theme park is false.  it is limited solely by PvP & PvE ( Killer ) type gamers.  Switching to sandbox will not affect their play style.

    I agree with your analysis, and I also think it's hilarious that the killer can't be bothered to pay the merchant. Do you think that if the killer has access to loots that the merchant needs it would change the dynamic? To use an example, the BH missions in SWG that dropped crazy items (assuming any class could do such a thing not just one).

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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