OP - I think you got this right, thanks for a well researched article
When I culminate all the issues others have said about swtor and my own - it becomes clear that BW was not up to this challenge and the OP has given more insight to the events surrounding the production of this game.
Some people talk about unfinished product and EA pressure BUT I have major issue with poor and lack lustre design issues that have been made throughout swtor game on what has been 'completed'. SWTOR goes down asthe biggest dissapointment in my gaming history.
Surprised no one mentioned the poor decision to buy and use the hero engine which proved a total fail in open pop and had a delay due to animation thus giving the republic a disadvantage .
I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is.
Really a whole 90%!
Based on what? The forums?
SWToR plays exactly the way they said it would. The problem is that many people didn't listen, didn't read or read into articles more than they should, and insinuated their own ideas on what they wanted. Then when the game didn't match what was in their minds they got angry.
Not everyone is looking for a sandbox or minds the story part. some of the lists I see as to "what went wrong" are really not universal. The problem for those who like the game is that there is not enough to do once you level a character except to do another character.
For everyone else it's that it was never the game they wanted int the first place. tha'ts ok. The problem for Bioware/EA is that they thought everyone would eat it up. And that's not the case.
This game doesn't speak to every star wars mmo gamer or even star wars fan but it does have people who love it. Who dont' come to forums or are even aware that there are debates waged on the internet.
I initially thought the game would have about 350 to 500 thousand subs. max. That's about what it should have as it's a decent game. Just not the mythical wow killer.
No it doesnt , they lied completley and failed miserably..
They said they had an immersive and deep PvP system with open World objectives on Ilum , with great PVP mechanics and progression .... Many PvP players and guilds joined the game becuase they said this.. And now nearly all of them have left
This game failed on every conceivable level as an MMO , So we did listen and read but it was all undelivered lies and mishandled game updates by incapable ,unimaginative and uninspired gameplay by under qualified developers, who dleivered a game that is broken at its very core and is unfixable... And will go F2P sooner than you think.. in a futile attempt to save it...........
Blizzard had over 10 years multiplayer experience from warcraft 3 and diablo 1/2 before they launched WoW and it's launch was horrible too.
SW:Tor has had a pretty uneventful launch (a plus). Had it been Laserswords and spaceships online, not star wars, it wouldn't have these hate threads.
While I agree that no one would care about the game if it wasn't Star Wars, it's also endemic to SW fans to become angry when disappointed. I think the that if SWTOR had been some other IP it would have been received better, but would also have been low profile.
None of that, however, pertains to the reality of buying SWTOR after a long anticipated release, and playing to level 50.
Originally posted by hercules Surprised no one mentioned the poor decision to buy and use the hero engine which proved a total fail in open pop and had a delay due to animation thus giving the republic a disadvantage .
I don't know how true this is though. There are other games coming out that use the later builds of HERO and I don't think that would have happned if it was total crap through and through. The OPs explanation of how the whole process went bad (including the recode of HERO and implementation with bad systems coded by BW and subcontractors) seems more parsimonious.
I guess if you said HERO as programmed by BW I can agree.
Technorati tell's the story better. The OP's nothing but speculation.
First off, EA hasn't learned anything. If they learned from their mistakes EA wouldn't have kicked Greg & Gabe off the team or fired them on the spot after Warhammer went down the tube. Hell, if EA is going to be dumping money down the tube like this why don't they give me some cash? I could use the money. Anyways, Greg was the lead on Warhammer and after that game went down the toilet they put him SWTOR? why in the hell would EA do something that stupid?
The one at fault is the one that set the basic requirements in the first place.
If the first post is to believed, the LucasArts is at fault for wanting a WoW-Like game.
Bioware is following the basic requires of what LucasArts wanted. If the basic foundations of the idea is bad, no amount of presenation can change that.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
"This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well"
I doubt it, althought TESO may do as it is EA too, but not GW2
I am no GW2 fan, and I have no plans to play it, but it just looks more like a MMO
SWTORs main problem is that it is more like a single player game with multiplayer options, like ME3, and having DLC given free every other month, than a P2P MMO. GW2 looks more worthy of monthly fee, yet will not have one.
I like the Mass Effect series, and if SWTOR was released like Mass Effect 3, then it is just as good a game, but as a P2P MMO - it is crap.
When I first played WOW after playing SWG, I thought the worlds were restricive, but after playing SWTOR, WOW now looks more open and less restrictive, because SWTOR is more restrictive than WOW.
I like SWTOR which is why I am currently playing it, but I am not going to be playing for its entire lifetime or even years, like other MMOs, but wish I would
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
Yep, as soon as I am done with my smuggler storyline I will be done with the game.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
Yep, as soon as I am done with my smuggler storyline I will be done with the game.
That's just terrible. I don't say that with any happiness either. At this point SWTOR is simply holding my favorite IP hostage. It's all fine and good that they accomplished wht they set out to do, but to me they could have just made this a one-off SPRPG and kept the IP open for MMO development.
- Wow clone with everything implemented subpar to WoW itself.
- Worst large scale PvP ever in the history of MMO's
- Worst performance of any MMO in recent history, 2-3 FPS on my GTX 580 in a 20v20???
- Worst world design I've ever seen. If makes me wonder if the world design was not farmed out to India or China to save some money.
- Story was descent but meaningless decisions meant spacebar from level 30 on. Could have been so much more. How bout story decisions decide if you end up Sith or Republic?
- The #1 reason for me SWTOR failed is because they did have the balls to at least even attempt to innovate anywhere. They were so scared that if they deviated from the WoW formula even in the slightest they would be at risk. This means you end with basically a 2005 copy of WoW with lightsabers.
Maybe someday LA will give the IP to Trion. They seem to be one of the few MMO developers these days that know how to make a good MMO so I could only imagine what they could do with the SW IP and a ton of cash.
P.S Getting tired of every interview I see I hear them say '....but I cant talk about that right now', as if some magic saving grace feature is coming to save the game. Go ahead BW and 'talk about it', you need people talking, after all I know all my friends have stopped talking about swtor and that's never a good thing.
BTW just logged out of The Secret World where there was 100v100v100 PvP that was enjoyable and played quite well. I honestly dont thing swtor will ever be capapable of that.
They made a single player game with multiplayer options and a chat box.
Its a decent game just in the wrong genre. I even understand why they put it in the mmo genre. Think about it, why not put it in the mmo genre, its widly accepted that mmo have a sub fee, you would be stupid to not try and milk every last cent out of all the sheep that play "mmo's". Thankfully I did not contribute to this fleecing.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
"This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well"
I doubt it, althought TESO may do as it is EA too, but not GW2
I am no GW2 fan, and I have no plans to play it, but it just looks more like a MMO
SWTORs main problem is that it is more like a single player game with multiplayer options, like ME3, and having DLC given free every other month, than a P2P MMO. GW2 looks more worthy of monthly fee, yet will not have one.
I like the Mass Effect series, and if SWTOR was released like Mass Effect 3, then it is just as good a game, but as a P2P MMO - it is crap.
When I first played WOW after playing SWG, I thought the worlds were restricive, but after playing SWTOR, WOW now looks more open and less restrictive, because SWTOR is more restrictive than WOW.
I like SWTOR which is why I am currently playing it, but I am not going to be playing for its entire lifetime or even years, like other MMOs, but wish I would
I'll have a bet with you that they'll be a mass exodus within months of the game launching with players complaining about lack of population, calling for server merges etc etc... just like every major MMO release these past few years. The PvE in GW2 is its downfall I forsee it becoming stale just like Rift and it'll be completed very quickly by the content locusts and general PvE community. The games price model is built around selling you more content and most PvE players are not going to grind for cosmetic armour and titles inbetween content packs,couple that with a lack of classic PvE character progression the PvE becomes GW2 achilles heal. But just like SW:TOR it will be a good game just not perfect like some around here believe.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
8 years? Seriously? What a waste of time and effort.
Tell me about it.
According to Wikipedia "the game was first announced on October 21, 2008". Design started some time in 2005. In March 2006 it was announced that Bioware Austin had been founded for an unnamed MMO project. I reckon the OP was just a tad too generous with the "8 years" he followed the game.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
8 years? Seriously? What a waste of time and effort.
Tell me about it.
According to Wikipedia "the game was first announced on October 21, 2008". Design started some time in 2005. In March 2006 it was announced that Bioware Austin had been founded for an unnamed MMO project. I reckon the OP was just a tad too generous with the "8 years" he followed the game.
I guess you're a 'tad' less informed than someone who has been following this game for eight years.
In 2003, I was a fan of the then premier SW MMO, Star Wars Galaxies. I, like many others, was alienated from that game when the NGE - New Game Enhancements - were implemented in November 2005.
It was very quickly recognised by Lucas Arts that the NGE made SWG an unsavable commercial disaster (especially since it had followed another failed set of changes, the Combat Upgrade, designed to 'save' the game, just six months earlier).
On the internet sites and forums it began to be heavily rumoured - only rumoured though - that LA was seeking a software house other than SOE to create a SW MMO that would be 'done right'. When it finally hooked up with Bioware is not really known but, certainly the partnership was in place in the fourth quarter of 2005, because it was then that two pieces of news were announced publicly in December of that year:
Firslty, that Gordon Walton, who had been a major force behind SWG at SOE (and left because of the CU) had been appointed General Manager of Bioware Austin and was in charge of the development of a new MMO with a super-secret IP.
Secondly, Bioware Austin began advertising for software developers to work on a 'SW-themed project'.
You didn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to put two and two together. None of this is new information - it's plastered all over the SWG forums of this very site for 2005 nand 2006.
The game project might have been 'announced' in 2007, but it was already in play in 2005. In other words, eight years ago. Happy now?
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
"This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well"
I doubt it, althought TESO may do as it is EA too, but not GW2
I am no GW2 fan, and I have no plans to play it, but it just looks more like a MMO
SWTORs main problem is that it is more like a single player game with multiplayer options, like ME3, and having DLC given free every other month, than a P2P MMO. GW2 looks more worthy of monthly fee, yet will not have one.
I like the Mass Effect series, and if SWTOR was released like Mass Effect 3, then it is just as good a game, but as a P2P MMO - it is crap.
When I first played WOW after playing SWG, I thought the worlds were restricive, but after playing SWTOR, WOW now looks more open and less restrictive, because SWTOR is more restrictive than WOW.
I like SWTOR which is why I am currently playing it, but I am not going to be playing for its entire lifetime or even years, like other MMOs, but wish I would
I'll have a bet with you that they'll be a mass exodus within months of the game launching with players complaining about lack of population, calling for server merges etc etc... just like every major MMO release these past few years. The PvE in GW2 is its downfall I forsee it becoming stale just like Rift and it'll be completed very quickly by the content locusts and general PvE community. The games price model is built around selling you more content and most PvE players are not going to grind for cosmetic armour and titles inbetween content packs,couple that with a lack of classic PvE character progression the PvE becomes GW2 achilles heal. But just like SW:TOR it will be a good game just not perfect like some around here believe.
No other MMO has dropped so much and so fast as SWTOR. SWTORs mass exodus was mainly around the aspect it is more single player focussed than multiplayer focussed, and that it carried a monthly fee too. It is like paying a monthly fee to Mass Effect 3, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, Red Red Redemption etc Loads of people like these games, but not many will be willing to fork out a monthly fee for them.
What keeps MMOs ticking is the community feel, and if GW2 nails it then it will sustain people longer. I like the fact where that no one can kill steal, and anyone attacking the same thing, will get XP. SWTOR loses the community feel in spades, and the space part amplifies that.
It could even be the MMO to worry WOW. Of all the MMOs releasing this year, GW2 has the potential to be the next king of the MMOs, as it has the elements that make a MMO. That does not mean it will be perfect, as WOW is far from that too. I do not see the other MMOs having the potential to be "king"
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
"This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well"
I doubt it, althought TESO may do as it is EA too, but not GW2
I am no GW2 fan, and I have no plans to play it, but it just looks more like a MMO
SWTORs main problem is that it is more like a single player game with multiplayer options, like ME3, and having DLC given free every other month, than a P2P MMO. GW2 looks more worthy of monthly fee, yet will not have one.
I like the Mass Effect series, and if SWTOR was released like Mass Effect 3, then it is just as good a game, but as a P2P MMO - it is crap.
When I first played WOW after playing SWG, I thought the worlds were restricive, but after playing SWTOR, WOW now looks more open and less restrictive, because SWTOR is more restrictive than WOW.
I like SWTOR which is why I am currently playing it, but I am not going to be playing for its entire lifetime or even years, like other MMOs, but wish I would
I'll have a bet with you that they'll be a mass exodus within months of the game launching with players complaining about lack of population, calling for server merges etc etc... just like every major MMO release these past few years. The PvE in GW2 is its downfall I forsee it becoming stale just like Rift and it'll be completed very quickly by the content locusts and general PvE community. The games price model is built around selling you more content and most PvE players are not going to grind for cosmetic armour and titles inbetween content packs,couple that with a lack of classic PvE character progression the PvE becomes GW2 achilles heal. But just like SW:TOR it will be a good game just not perfect like some around here believe.
No other MMO has dropped so much and so fast as SWTOR. SWTORs mass exodus was mainly around the aspect it is more single player focussed than multiplayer focussed, and that it carried a monthly fee too. It is like paying a monthly fee to Mass Effect 3, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, Red Red Redemption etc Loads of people like these games, but not many will be willing to fork out a monthly fee for them.
What keeps MMOs ticking is the community feel, and if GW2 nails it then it will sustain people longer. I like the fact where that no one can kill steal, and anyone attacking the same thing, will get XP. SWTOR loses the community feel in spades, and the space part amplifies that.
It could even be the MMO to worry WOW. Of all the MMOs releasing this year, GW2 has the potential to be the next king of the MMOs, as it has the elements that make a MMO. That does not mean it will be perfect, as WOW is far from that too. I do not see the other MMOs having the potential to be "king"
So not taking that bet then? WoW has by most reports the worst communities in any MMO ever and that has been King of The Castle for many years and GW1 was famous for it bad communities as well so I stick by my prediction outlined a few posts back.
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They made a single player game with multiplayer options and a chat box.
Its a decent game just in the wrong genre. I even understand why they put it in the mmo genre. Think about it, why not put it in the mmo genre, its widly accepted that mmo have a sub fee, you would be stupid to not try and milk every last cent out of all the sheep that play "mmo's". Thankfully I did not contribute to this fleecing.
QFT. This is precisely the problem with SWTOR and several "MMO;s" that flopped of late. Its fine to create story but make it world story not individual story. Most people are not interested in paying a sub to play a Single player RPG and in those strict terms even if SWTOR was single player the storylines are not even close to being Biowares best work.
Way too wordy. Didn't read. Everyone knows what went wrong wtih TOR and can make a short list that gets all of the major reasons.
C'mon Frodo... you're smarter then this.
If you really can't focus enough to read a page of text (god forbid) then maybe it's not good to participate in the following discussion? Just saying.
The OP was actually a pretty good read.
Has anyone from Bioware or EA actually been given the boot post launch of SWtOR anyone know?
SWTOR is a very simple case study. It's not complicated at ALL.
1) Released too soon. It had piss poor combat response and was missing key features a WOW clone should have such as group finders (not to mention cross server capability), rated PVP and guild tools
2) Poor priorities - failed to understand the genre/market and focused way too much on story for a MMO
3) Poor replayability for characters of the same faction. No alternate planets to choose from
4) Closed minded developers who couldn't see the flaws in the game as released and waited too long to finally address them
5) Space combat on rails
6) Too much phasing/sharding
1.3 will be the state of the game as it should have been released, minus some of the end game content that could have been added later.
The problem with your logic is in believing that giving this game even another year of development would have helped it. It wouldn't. The problems are very fundamental in the design of the game. It's just boring, and I don't care how much you polish it, or how much content you add. What people are finding is that all this "story driven content" actually just serves to make the game even less engaging and more passive. Even if you were able to suffer through one play through, I don't know how anyone could stand to re-roll.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
"This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well"
I doubt it, althought TESO may do as it is EA too, but not GW2
I am no GW2 fan, and I have no plans to play it, but it just looks more like a MMO
SWTORs main problem is that it is more like a single player game with multiplayer options, like ME3, and having DLC given free every other month, than a P2P MMO. GW2 looks more worthy of monthly fee, yet will not have one.
I like the Mass Effect series, and if SWTOR was released like Mass Effect 3, then it is just as good a game, but as a P2P MMO - it is crap.
When I first played WOW after playing SWG, I thought the worlds were restricive, but after playing SWTOR, WOW now looks more open and less restrictive, because SWTOR is more restrictive than WOW.
I like SWTOR which is why I am currently playing it, but I am not going to be playing for its entire lifetime or even years, like other MMOs, but wish I would
I'll have a bet with you that they'll be a mass exodus within months of the game launching with players complaining about lack of population, calling for server merges etc etc... just like every major MMO release these past few years. The PvE in GW2 is its downfall I forsee it becoming stale just like Rift and it'll be completed very quickly by the content locusts and general PvE community. The games price model is built around selling you more content and most PvE players are not going to grind for cosmetic armour and titles inbetween content packs,couple that with a lack of classic PvE character progression the PvE becomes GW2 achilles heal. But just like SW:TOR it will be a good game just not perfect like some around here believe.
No other MMO has dropped so much and so fast as SWTOR. SWTORs mass exodus was mainly around the aspect it is more single player focussed than multiplayer focussed, and that it carried a monthly fee too. It is like paying a monthly fee to Mass Effect 3, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, Red Red Redemption etc Loads of people like these games, but not many will be willing to fork out a monthly fee for them.
What keeps MMOs ticking is the community feel, and if GW2 nails it then it will sustain people longer. I like the fact where that no one can kill steal, and anyone attacking the same thing, will get XP. SWTOR loses the community feel in spades, and the space part amplifies that.
It could even be the MMO to worry WOW. Of all the MMOs releasing this year, GW2 has the potential to be the next king of the MMOs, as it has the elements that make a MMO. That does not mean it will be perfect, as WOW is far from that too. I do not see the other MMOs having the potential to be "king"
So not taking that bet then? WoW has by most reports the worst communities in any MMO ever and that has been King of The Castle for many years and GW1 was famous for it bad communities as well so I stick by my prediction outlined a few posts back.
WOW is just a phenomenon, but if you were to do that bet you would lose, if you mean it having the mass exodus that SWTOR had.
Everythin that was relleased in 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and what ever comes in 1.4 and 1.5 should of been in game when the game released. Bioware released an unfinished game with nothing to do and such the newbie developers are paying the price. It doesnt mean they cant pull it around but it will have to go F2P and go all Trion/Rift on releasing content to do so IMO.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Comments
OP - I think you got this right, thanks for a well researched article
When I culminate all the issues others have said about swtor and my own - it becomes clear that BW was not up to this challenge and the OP has given more insight to the events surrounding the production of this game.
Some people talk about unfinished product and EA pressure BUT I have major issue with poor and lack lustre design issues that have been made throughout swtor game on what has been 'completed'. SWTOR goes down as the biggest dissapointment in my gaming history.
Roll on GW2.
No it doesnt , they lied completley and failed miserably..
They said they had an immersive and deep PvP system with open World objectives on Ilum , with great PVP mechanics and progression .... Many PvP players and guilds joined the game becuase they said this.. And now nearly all of them have left
This game failed on every conceivable level as an MMO , So we did listen and read but it was all undelivered lies and mishandled game updates by incapable ,unimaginative and uninspired gameplay by under qualified developers, who dleivered a game that is broken at its very core and is unfixable... And will go F2P sooner than you think.. in a futile attempt to save it...........
While I agree that no one would care about the game if it wasn't Star Wars, it's also endemic to SW fans to become angry when disappointed. I think the that if SWTOR had been some other IP it would have been received better, but would also have been low profile.
None of that, however, pertains to the reality of buying SWTOR after a long anticipated release, and playing to level 50.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I don't know how true this is though. There are other games coming out that use the later builds of HERO and I don't think that would have happned if it was total crap through and through. The OPs explanation of how the whole process went bad (including the recode of HERO and implementation with bad systems coded by BW and subcontractors) seems more parsimonious.
I guess if you said HERO as programmed by BW I can agree.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Technorati tell's the story better. The OP's nothing but speculation.
First off, EA hasn't learned anything. If they learned from their mistakes EA wouldn't have kicked Greg & Gabe off the team or fired them on the spot after Warhammer went down the tube. Hell, if EA is going to be dumping money down the tube like this why don't they give me some cash? I could use the money. Anyways, Greg was the lead on Warhammer and after that game went down the toilet they put him SWTOR? why in the hell would EA do something that stupid?
"Everything is mine and your woman too"
8 years? Seriously? What a waste of time and effort.
Tell me about it.
The one at fault is the one that set the basic requirements in the first place.
If the first post is to believed, the LucasArts is at fault for wanting a WoW-Like game.
Bioware is following the basic requires of what LucasArts wanted. If the basic foundations of the idea is bad, no amount of presenation can change that.
It would be like asking Picasso to paint garbage.
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Sovrath has just about nailed it here, as I'm a paying player and not some armchair developer who has no insight into what the BW/EA/LA were thinking and neither does the OP you have to fall back on obvious things which Sovrath has pointed out. The game is made for rolling alts, e-sport PvP and Roleplay with Raiding as an on going development. First the rush to cap guys left, then the PvP'ers left because of Illum, then the content locusts left as they had completed all content and finally players are leaving as they too finish all the available content its as simple as that. Just because people on this forum wanted a completely different game there has to be some great big conspiracy to the why's and wherefores of the "failure" of TOR. This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well. I still play because I haven'r exhausted all thye available content yet and I'm in a slowly expanding guild that is fun to be in.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
"This is going to happen with GW2 and TESO as well"
I doubt it, althought TESO may do as it is EA too, but not GW2
Five Reasons why GW2 > SWTOR
I am no GW2 fan, and I have no plans to play it, but it just looks more like a MMO
SWTORs main problem is that it is more like a single player game with multiplayer options, like ME3, and having DLC given free every other month, than a P2P MMO. GW2 looks more worthy of monthly fee, yet will not have one.
I like the Mass Effect series, and if SWTOR was released like Mass Effect 3, then it is just as good a game, but as a P2P MMO - it is crap.
When I first played WOW after playing SWG, I thought the worlds were restricive, but after playing SWTOR, WOW now looks more open and less restrictive, because SWTOR is more restrictive than WOW.
I like SWTOR which is why I am currently playing it, but I am not going to be playing for its entire lifetime or even years, like other MMOs, but wish I would
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Yep, as soon as I am done with my smuggler storyline I will be done with the game.
That's just terrible. I don't say that with any happiness either. At this point SWTOR is simply holding my favorite IP hostage. It's all fine and good that they accomplished wht they set out to do, but to me they could have just made this a one-off SPRPG and kept the IP open for MMO development.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
A few Quick reasons off the top of my head:
- Nothing exciting to do at level 50.
- Wow clone with everything implemented subpar to WoW itself.
- Worst large scale PvP ever in the history of MMO's
- Worst performance of any MMO in recent history, 2-3 FPS on my GTX 580 in a 20v20???
- Worst world design I've ever seen. If makes me wonder if the world design was not farmed out to India or China to save some money.
- Story was descent but meaningless decisions meant spacebar from level 30 on. Could have been so much more. How bout story decisions decide if you end up Sith or Republic?
- The #1 reason for me SWTOR failed is because they did have the balls to at least even attempt to innovate anywhere. They were so scared that if they deviated from the WoW formula even in the slightest they would be at risk. This means you end with basically a 2005 copy of WoW with lightsabers.
Maybe someday LA will give the IP to Trion. They seem to be one of the few MMO developers these days that know how to make a good MMO so I could only imagine what they could do with the SW IP and a ton of cash.
P.S Getting tired of every interview I see I hear them say '....but I cant talk about that right now', as if some magic saving grace feature is coming to save the game. Go ahead BW and 'talk about it', you need people talking, after all I know all my friends have stopped talking about swtor and that's never a good thing.
BTW just logged out of The Secret World where there was 100v100v100 PvP that was enjoyable and played quite well. I honestly dont thing swtor will ever be capapable of that.
Huttball was the downfall of Swtor. after playing it 22 times in a row one day i finally uninstalled the game.
I can tell you what went wrong in 1 sentence:
They made a single player game with multiplayer options and a chat box.
Its a decent game just in the wrong genre. I even understand why they put it in the mmo genre. Think about it, why not put it in the mmo genre, its widly accepted that mmo have a sub fee, you would be stupid to not try and milk every last cent out of all the sheep that play "mmo's". Thankfully I did not contribute to this fleecing.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I'll have a bet with you that they'll be a mass exodus within months of the game launching with players complaining about lack of population, calling for server merges etc etc... just like every major MMO release these past few years. The PvE in GW2 is its downfall I forsee it becoming stale just like Rift and it'll be completed very quickly by the content locusts and general PvE community. The games price model is built around selling you more content and most PvE players are not going to grind for cosmetic armour and titles inbetween content packs,couple that with a lack of classic PvE character progression the PvE becomes GW2 achilles heal. But just like SW:TOR it will be a good game just not perfect like some around here believe.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
According to Wikipedia "the game was first announced on October 21, 2008". Design started some time in 2005. In March 2006 it was announced that Bioware Austin had been founded for an unnamed MMO project. I reckon the OP was just a tad too generous with the "8 years" he followed the game.
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I guess you're a 'tad' less informed than someone who has been following this game for eight years.
In 2003, I was a fan of the then premier SW MMO, Star Wars Galaxies. I, like many others, was alienated from that game when the NGE - New Game Enhancements - were implemented in November 2005.
It was very quickly recognised by Lucas Arts that the NGE made SWG an unsavable commercial disaster (especially since it had followed another failed set of changes, the Combat Upgrade, designed to 'save' the game, just six months earlier).
On the internet sites and forums it began to be heavily rumoured - only rumoured though - that LA was seeking a software house other than SOE to create a SW MMO that would be 'done right'. When it finally hooked up with Bioware is not really known but, certainly the partnership was in place in the fourth quarter of 2005, because it was then that two pieces of news were announced publicly in December of that year:
Firslty, that Gordon Walton, who had been a major force behind SWG at SOE (and left because of the CU) had been appointed General Manager of Bioware Austin and was in charge of the development of a new MMO with a super-secret IP.
Secondly, Bioware Austin began advertising for software developers to work on a 'SW-themed project'.
You didn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to put two and two together. None of this is new information - it's plastered all over the SWG forums of this very site for 2005 nand 2006.
The game project might have been 'announced' in 2007, but it was already in play in 2005. In other words, eight years ago. Happy now?
No other MMO has dropped so much and so fast as SWTOR. SWTORs mass exodus was mainly around the aspect it is more single player focussed than multiplayer focussed, and that it carried a monthly fee too. It is like paying a monthly fee to Mass Effect 3, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto, Red Red Redemption etc Loads of people like these games, but not many will be willing to fork out a monthly fee for them.
What keeps MMOs ticking is the community feel, and if GW2 nails it then it will sustain people longer. I like the fact where that no one can kill steal, and anyone attacking the same thing, will get XP. SWTOR loses the community feel in spades, and the space part amplifies that.
It could even be the MMO to worry WOW. Of all the MMOs releasing this year, GW2 has the potential to be the next king of the MMOs, as it has the elements that make a MMO. That does not mean it will be perfect, as WOW is far from that too. I do not see the other MMOs having the potential to be "king"
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So not taking that bet then? WoW has by most reports the worst communities in any MMO ever and that has been King of The Castle for many years and GW1 was famous for it bad communities as well so I stick by my prediction outlined a few posts back.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
QFT. This is precisely the problem with SWTOR and several "MMO;s" that flopped of late. Its fine to create story but make it world story not individual story. Most people are not interested in paying a sub to play a Single player RPG and in those strict terms even if SWTOR was single player the storylines are not even close to being Biowares best work.
The problem with your logic is in believing that giving this game even another year of development would have helped it. It wouldn't. The problems are very fundamental in the design of the game. It's just boring, and I don't care how much you polish it, or how much content you add. What people are finding is that all this "story driven content" actually just serves to make the game even less engaging and more passive. Even if you were able to suffer through one play through, I don't know how anyone could stand to re-roll.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
WOW is just a phenomenon, but if you were to do that bet you would lose, if you mean it having the mass exodus that SWTOR had.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Everythin that was relleased in 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and what ever comes in 1.4 and 1.5 should of been in game when the game released. Bioware released an unfinished game with nothing to do and such the newbie developers are paying the price. It doesnt mean they cant pull it around but it will have to go F2P and go all Trion/Rift on releasing content to do so IMO.
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Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.