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Sandbox MMOs are not really what players want

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  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Originally posted by Isasis

    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

    Speak for yourself or be ridiculed. Lesson learned I hope.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • XuljesterXuljester Schuylkill Haven, PAPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by UOvet

    What's wrong with putting GvG back into sandbox games? You don't have to have FFA full loot. I think someone should try implementing GvG and if you are a warring guild/guilds you can then loot eachother, however if you're solo and/or in a guild that say isn't warred with anyone if that's what you want, then it wouldn't be an issue since you couldn't be attacked by anyone.

     

    Atleast this way PvE players can go about their business while the PvP guys can all war eachother and PvP in the open world without bothering PvE players. I don't see how PvE players could really complain and as a PvP guy this would seem perfectly fine for me.

    This is what Ultima Online did with Trammel. Honestly, this works extremely well, obviously, since Trammelites saw little to no reason to revisit Felucca.

    For those who don't know, Ultima Online was originally a purely Open-World PVP, sandbox MMO, with simpler weapons and armor that didn't have a stat list or level requirements, nor did it have levels, or a hotbar, and it was full-loot. This experience was then split in to Felucca and Trammel on every shard (server). Felucca was the original experience, and Trammel was the same experience except it no longer allowed for free, open world PVP. However, Guilds were allowed to partake in Open-World PVP and later in Faction PVP.

    Okay, so that may not be completely accurate, since we're talking about things that came about 10 years ago and by that point my interest in this new breed of UO was fading quite quickly, but my point stands that this did indeed work very well. Of course, Ultima Online went on to include the ever-lovable gear grind we see in today's breed of MMO (/sarcasm).

    Fact is, following UO's example of a fractured realm (Felucca/Trammel), a game can be catered to both the PVP crowd and the PVE crowd. It can include both FFA PVP, and structured GVG PVP. It can be both sandbox and your "classic" guided MMO experience at the same time...

    ... So, why isn't it? Well, I think that's because MMO developers are so focused on producing an MMO that focuses on the "grind". You grind for levels, to grind for skills, to grind for gear, to grind for raids, to grind for the end game, to wait for more content to be released so you can continue on. In order to give the players all of this, they have to focus a great deal of effort on creating content, lore, story, and crafting an experience that most players are simply going to grind through without paying much of any attention to. It's like drawing masterful artwork on a major highway; they're trying to provide an experience to players who really just want the social experience that has inexplicably congealed itself around it.

    LeSigh

    But the investors won't go for anything other than this shake'n'bake renaissance. Can't blame them though, because everyone keeps paying for it, so now the trick is to fry up as many as you can without spending too much on production, so that everyone and their mother will spend dollar and dime time and again. It's like... "Hey, I'm tired of eating. It's very tedious to do this over and over again, but instead of finding new and exciting ways for me to eat, just find me new and exciting thing to eat instead. Like Space Orks." Bad example, but the point still stands...

    Right. Anyhow. Just going to leave this steaming pile of rant here and piss off now. Ciao, bellas.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gibbonici
    Originally posted by Kenze

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

    sandbox=pvp=chaos=excitement

    themepark=pve=order=tedium

      

     

    I fixed that for you.

    By the way, I'm not a PvPer as a rule.

    DAoC!!!!!

     

     

    fixed that for you

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by ozmono

    *sigh*

    Do we really need to have this conversation over and over?

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/317478/Sandbox-vs-Themepark-Discussion-Thread.html

    No.  But people are, you know, allergic to threads they didn't start.

    Tune back into this thread later for "but I didn't know" and "omg my thread was completely different".

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ozmono

    *sigh*

    Do we really need to have this conversation over and over?

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/317478/Sandbox-vs-Themepark-Discussion-Thread.html

    No.  But people are, you know, allergic to threads they didn't start.

    Tune back into this thread later for "but I didn't know" and "omg my thread was completely different".

     

    I despise those moderator created mega threads, and eschew them if at all possible. 

    Any thread more than 10 pages is probably 5 pages too long since few people bother to read any of the prior posts, especially the larger they get.

    I actually rarely post in any thread once it reaches the 10 page mark.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I despise those moderator created mega threads, and eschew them if at all possible.

    Of course you do, you firmly believe in forum PvP, and starting your own thread is the highly preferred way to troll.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LissylLissyl Peru, INPosts: 271Member Common
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I despise those moderator created mega threads, and eschew them if at all possible.

    Of course you do, you firmly believe in forum PvP, and starting your own thread is the highly preferred way to troll.

    While I'll not take a stance regarding whether the OP is a troll or not...the mega-threads are pretty rough to actually participate in because of so many previous posts.

    Anyhow.

    I often see people hearken back to UO.  It's practically a requirement these days, and I'm pretty sure I've 'heard' from more UO vets than people who actually ever played the game, if you know what I mean.  But the demographic has shifted a lot since then.  I think the pvp is the problem - I know for certain it keeps myself and every other RL gamer I know out of plenty of games, and drives us away from many others.  Games that, with even some modicum of proper supervision, would be wonderful games for us.  I'm not talking about removing pvp as a functional entity, but things like 'any level any zerg' and that are hardcore turnoffs.  Twinking is another no-factor (of course, that falls under gear grind...but in a very specific way).

     

    Someone, somewhere, has to have a more coherent system of pvp than 'kill the lowbie take the loot'.  Once that is found, I think you'll see a lot more people who would be interested in trying a sandbox. 

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UOvet

    What's wrong with putting GvG back into sandbox games? You don't have to have FFA full loot. I think someone should try implementing GvG and if you are a warring guild/guilds you can then loot eachother, however if you're solo and/or in a guild that say isn't warred with anyone if that's what you want, then it wouldn't be an issue since you couldn't be attacked by anyone. Atleast this way PvE players can go about their business while the PvP guys can all war eachother and PvP in the open world without bothering PvE players. I don't see how PvE players could really complain and as a PvP guy this would seem perfectly fine for me.

    Have you done GvG PvP... You can be killed anywhere In front of Guards, Banks and Crafting stations... its Hardcore.

    Originally posted by Kaynos1972

    Sandbox is not synonymous of FFA PVP. FFA PVP for me is for 14 years old boy with too much testosterone.

    Im almost twice that age and I enjoy a "GOOD" Full Loot pvp game, my little sister aswell XD

    image
  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by Theocritus

          I've been trying to get into WUrm Online lately, and even though it is a sandbox it just feels wierd....WHile I can do anything I want, by the time I log out I've accomplished little to nothing......I think the reason why so many people like themeparks more is you can log in for an hour and accomplish something....Pretty much every sandbox I've tried it takes hours to do anything.

    Sandbox, themepark, all are good, but

    THIS IS THE PROBLEM...

    tutorial prison---->linear quest hub 1---->cutscene--->linear quest hub 2--->cutscene---linear quest hub 3--->cutscene---final baddy showdown--->cutscene (you're-the-hero-who-saved-the-world) (reroll and repeat with next character)

    I swear, I have played lots of games on this website, but do not feel like I have played a true MMORPG since 2002.

  • barezzbarezz Granite City, ILPosts: 140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lissyl
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I despise those moderator created mega threads, and eschew them if at all possible.

    Of course you do, you firmly believe in forum PvP, and starting your own thread is the highly preferred way to troll.

    While I'll not take a stance regarding whether the OP is a troll or not...the mega-threads are pretty rough to actually participate in because of so many previous posts.

    Anyhow.

    I often see people hearken back to UO.  It's practically a requirement these days, and I'm pretty sure I've 'heard' from more UO vets than people who actually ever played the game, if you know what I mean.  But the demographic has shifted a lot since then.  I think the pvp is the problem - I know for certain it keeps myself and every other RL gamer I know out of plenty of games, and drives us away from many others.  Games that, with even some modicum of proper supervision, would be wonderful games for us.  I'm not talking about removing pvp as a functional entity, but things like 'any level any zerg' and that are hardcore turnoffs.  Twinking is another no-factor (of course, that falls under gear grind...but in a very specific way).

     

    Someone, somewhere, has to have a more coherent system of pvp than 'kill the lowbie take the loot'.  Once that is found, I think you'll see a lot more people who would be interested in trying a sandbox. 


    This.  I would be curious to see how a sandbox pvE game would do, or a snadbox game that had consensual VS forced PvP.  Pre CU SWG was that by design and it did pretty well, it was due to idiotic management and LA decisions that the NGE happened.  Even then, the game still had more "Pve" sandbox features such as the crafting, player cities, entertainer class, etc that it was able to survive the NGE and do fairly well.

    I see sandbox game after sandbox game do poorly and one of the common factors seems to be this open world full loot pvp.  I know everyone loves to chest thump and talk about how great UO was, but I sure would be interested to see how a sandbox game that didn't force PvP on everyone would do.

    Not saying to not have it, but make it a PvP on/off switch (naturally with some kind of timer or something to prevent exploits).  The biggest arguement I see against this kind of feature is usually "but then no one would ever turn it on QQ".  Honestly if that is the case, what does that say about the majority of players and open world PvP?

    Sandbox design isn't the issue, the open world non consensual PvP part is.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by Isasis

    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

    Actually, from my perspective you are totally wrong.  The reasons I have walked away from the very few actual sandboxes that have released, such as Xyson, had more to do with the games never reaching a very playble state due to budget problems with indy developers.  The games often launch buggy, and incomplete.  In the case of Xyson, the actual sandbox part of the game was very well done, but there was no "game" there because the developer neglected to put in meaningful goals and combat.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • GibboniciGibbonici LeedsPosts: 472Member Common
    Originally posted by Kenze
    Originally posted by Gibbonici
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ
    Originally posted by Slampig
    Originally posted by Gibbonici
    Originally posted by Kenze

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

    sandbox=pvp=chaos=excitement

    themepark=pve=order=tedium

      

     

    I fixed that for you.

    By the way, I'm not a PvPer as a rule.

    Way to impose your point of view, thanks for speaking for all of us...

    Just like Kenze was doing?

     

    Exactly my point.

    your point is rather dull.. how could you possibly take what i said as "imposing"  the first line i clearly said

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

     

    My mistake, I had you confused with the OP.

     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    I despise those moderator created mega threads, and eschew them if at all possible.

    Of course you do, you firmly believe in forum PvP, and starting your own thread is the highly preferred way to troll.

    You wound me madam. image  While I am a proponent of good discussion, or even bad discussion for that matter, starting new theads is something I rarely ever do and I doubt any that I did could be construed as trolling, whatever the heck that term really means.

    However I am more than happy to pile in on any good scrum.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kenze

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

    sandbox=pvp=chaos=willynilly

    themepark=pve=order=structure

     

     

    Sadly some PVE games had a lot of teeth but that was in the days where real challenge existed. A sandbox does not need to be PVP based and the minute someone releasees a decent one it will be a massive success.

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by Isane
    Originally posted by Kenze

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

    sandbox=pvp=chaos=willynilly

    themepark=pve=order=structure

     

     

    Sadly some PVE games had a lot of teeth but that was in the days where real challenge existed. A sandbox does not need to be PVP based and the minute someone releasees a decent one it will be a massive success.

    I think that will be true.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Theocritus

          I've been trying to get into WUrm Online lately, and even though it is a sandbox it just feels wierd....WHile I can do anything I want, by the time I log out I've accomplished little to nothing......I think the reason why so many people like themeparks more is you can log in for an hour and accomplish something....Pretty much every sandbox I've tried it takes hours to do anything.

    Sandbox, themepark, all are good, but

    THIS IS THE PROBLEM...

    tutorial prison---->linear quest hub 1---->cutscene--->linear quest hub 2--->cutscene---linear quest hub 3--->cutscene---final baddy showdown--->cutscene (you're-the-hero-who-saved-the-world) (reroll and repeat with next character)

    I swear, I have played lots of games on this website, but do not feel like I have played a true MMORPG since 2002.

     

    If it is fun, why would anyone care if it is a "true" MMORPG?

    If it works, and people are enjoying the game, it is NOT a problem.

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Waterloo, NYPosts: 1,847Member

    I think what I want is a little bit of both.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member

    The problem here isn't that sandbox MMOs aren't what players want, it's that "sandbox" really means nothing.  You probably can't get 10 "sandbox" players in the same room and have them agree on what they want in a sandbox MMO.  At least with most themeparks, while you probably can't get complete agreement with what everyone wants, there's a general expectation as to what constitutes a themepark game.

    With sandboxes, you have people who want things that are diametrically oppsed to what other people want.  You have people who want mandatory permadeath, FFA PvP, forced grouping, housing, you name it.  And you have people who absolutely do not want any of those things.

    It's like putting your nose up at cars.  All cars are boring.  Motorcycles are where it's at.  But saying you like motorcyles doesn't really explain to anyone what you want.  Do you want a street bike?  A chopper?  Offroad?  Touring?  The options go on and on and just saying "motorcycle" doesn't mean anything, any more than just saying "sandbox" means anything.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Theocritus

          I've been trying to get into WUrm Online lately, and even though it is a sandbox it just feels wierd....WHile I can do anything I want, by the time I log out I've accomplished little to nothing......I think the reason why so many people like themeparks more is you can log in for an hour and accomplish something....Pretty much every sandbox I've tried it takes hours to do anything.

    Sandbox, themepark, all are good, but

    THIS IS THE PROBLEM...

    tutorial prison---->linear quest hub 1---->cutscene--->linear quest hub 2--->cutscene---linear quest hub 3--->cutscene---final baddy showdown--->cutscene (you're-the-hero-who-saved-the-world) (reroll and repeat with next character)

    I swear, I have played lots of games on this website, but do not feel like I have played a true MMORPG since 2002.

     

    If it is fun, why would anyone care if it is a "true" MMORPG?

    If it works, and people are enjoying the game, it is NOT a problem.

    That design is NOT working, hence these big AA and AAA titles that splash and crash.  You'd think after numerous tries, game management would get the message.  No real replay value in a single player story, not much anyway.

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member

    As many have stated before me, The only sandboxes to come out besides Eve have been low budget or rushed by indie devs. For example, Mortal Online, Dawntide, Xsyon, and Darkfall. Now lets name how many AAA themepark mmos have failed either to rushed to release or same old same old themepark BS, Lotro, Warhammer, Aion, and most notably SWTOR. I think once a AAA publisher says "ok heres the money, make the "sandbox" mmo you want and if it works we all win" and when that happens and it actually works then we shall see the mmo genre change.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DSWBeef

    As many have stated before me, The only sandboxes to come out besides Eve have been low budget or rushed by indie devs. For example, Mortal Online, Dawntide, Xsyon, and Darkfall. Now lets name how many AAA themepark mmos have failed either to rushed to release or same old same old themepark BS, Lotro, Warhammer, Aion, and most notably SWTOR. I think once a AAA publisher says "ok heres the money, make the "sandbox" mmo you want and if it works we all win" and when that happens and it actually works then we shall see the mmo genre change.

    If your going to use the term "failed" you need to define what it means because I'm pretty sure most/all of those themepark games made their money back and than some.  None of them managed to get even close to pulling WoW levels of subs so if that's how you define failure than yea I guess that's right although the same can be said for every sandbox game including EVE.

    To say players don't really want sandbox games probably isn't looking at the whole picture either. 

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    I guess no one likes pizza because there's a pizza place a few blocks from me that really sucks.  It's aweful...so no one likes pizza.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by Isasis

    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

    Are you a "nobody" in this arqument? And what would you equate themeparks to, since they give you everything without earning it?

    So let me get this straight. You, the "gamer" are given a stick and is expected to slay the dragon. Because YOU don't want to put in the time, effort, and sacrifice, YOU want to hold everyone else back down to your level for the sake of being "fair". YOU look down upon those that choose to sacrifice the time and energy to venture out, collect mats, bring them to town for a blacksmith to forge a sword to fight the dragon with, correct?

    If life was a "themepark", we wouldn't have the USA, space exploration, satelites, cell phones, the combustible engine, air conditioning, central heating, indoor plumbing, computers, etc etc. Unless "devs" allowed it. And since when did the "devs" suddenly care about YOU?

    I'm glad "sandbox" exists. It gives some people pride and sense of accomplishment that others can never claim, which makes it even better.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

  • GibboniciGibbonici LeedsPosts: 472Member Common

    I've pretty much given up on MMOs, especially themeparks, and am spending a silly amount of time playing DayZ which is the only game to press those buttons since the early days of MMOs. Another 30,000 unique players joined over the weekend bringing it's player base up to 300,000.

    Not bad for an unfinished, buggy alpha mod on a relatively obscure milsim that very few people bought in the first place. Even more so for having no advertising or big name studio behind it and only being publicly available for a couple of months.

    Add in the fact that it's harsh, brutal and very often totally unfair, with no dev-set goals beyond staying alive, I'd say there is an appetite for sandbox games, even ones with full loot PvP.

     

    Of course its not for everyone, just like sandbox games and themeparks too for that matter, but it is for a lot of people. DayZ currently has more players than quite a few AAA themepark MMOs. Food for thought, I think.

     

     

  • NorseGodNorseGod Behind Enemy Lines, FLPosts: 856Member
    Originally posted by Gibbonici

    I've pretty much given up on MMOs, especially themeparks, and am spending a silly amount of time playing DayZ which is the only game to press those buttons since the early days of MMOs. Another 30,000 unique players joined over the weekend bringing it's player base up to 300,000.

    Not bad for an unfinished, buggy alpha mod on a relatively obscure milsim that very few people bought in the first place. Even more so for having no advertising or big name studio behind it and only being publicly available for a couple of months.

    Add in the fact that it's harsh, brutal and very often totally unfair, with no dev-set goals beyond staying alive, I'd say there is an appetite for sandbox games, even ones with full loot PvP.

     

    Of course its not for everyone, just like sandbox games and themeparks too for that matter, but it is for a lot of people. DayZ currently has more players than quite a few AAA themepark MMOs. Food for thought, I think.

     

     

    Agreed. I threw in the towel on MMOs. Started playing DayZ as well. Put my monthly sub fee towards a gym membership.

    MMOs, are not MMOs that we once played. It's a co-OP/Single player game now with a monthly fee, or worse, cash shops. I don't understand the need to stand in a lobby (city or hub) and wait for a LFG que to pop, which instances you to the dungeon, by-passing 99% of the world. Only to level cap so you can sit in a lobby (city or hub) to wait for a que to pop, instancing you to a pre-manufacture pvp room to cap nodes for 15 minutes.

    DayZ is the most fun I've had in a long time.

    Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.

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