Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today. Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.
Seriously compared to something like FE or even DarkFall, UO and SWG were pathetic.
I can see the point with FE, but to say that about Darkfall leads me to believe that you either didn't do anything other than PKing inUO or you never really played it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've been playing MMO's for the past 13 years. The 2 MMO's i played for the most times are sandbox. Asheron's Call from 1999 to 2004, Anarchy Online 2002 to 2006. The only theme park i played for and extensive period of time is WOW. All the other MMO's being launched since WOW i played them for a month or two max each.
I'm starving of a deep sandbox mmo's that's not a budget indie game with p2w cash shop. Seems all the devs cares these days is to produce the same kind of game the fastest, make their money and leave. I have seen litterally no innovation in MMO's since the WOW lauch. Most new MMO's just want to milk the WOW cow, but this cow is dead, long dead for me.
Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.
If everyone is special, no one is special.
You missed it Chicago, but nice of you to slip in the cliche line of the week. In a true sandbox game nothing can be further from the truth.
Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today. Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today. Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.
If you limit someones ability to kill who they want, when they want then to them its no longer a sandbox.
I've seen the argument over and over. Give the killers the freedom and force the "weaker" Pvers to band together like cattle or hire some OP group of people to protect you.
This is what they consider freedom. The overlly aggressive players have complete access while everyone else gets to hide in a specific area of the game waiting to finally get picked off like scared deer.
This is why they rejected amazing games like Ryzom because it tried to structure Pvp.
I honestly don't think most of the people on this forum know what a sandbox game is...
If you limit someones ability to kill who they want, when they want then to them its no longer a sandbox.
This is where all the confusion rests. There are actually two completely different concepts commonly lumped together into the term "sandbox" : a FFA PvP game with politics and a verb-and-simulation based game with player-defined goals.
About the only thing everyone can agree on is that in a sandbox, the player motivations should be emergent from the rules rather than scripted by the devs.
Speak for yourself, I love sandbox completely, my only reason for not getting into most of them is their specific story and the fact that most of them are Sci-Fi (except for that SWG one which cannot be mentioned here), and also just about all of them require a sub and I prefer F2P due to financial reasons. Going back to the story, that might be what other Sandboxers are finding lacking, it's never the actual sandbox mechanics themselves. As for myself, keeping my eye on some Fantasy titles that are up and coming like Archage, that looks just *drool*
What's wrong with putting GvG back into sandbox games? You don't have to have FFA full loot. I think someone should try implementing GvG and if you are a warring guild/guilds you can then loot eachother, however if you're solo and/or in a guild that say isn't warred with anyone if that's what you want, then it wouldn't be an issue since you couldn't be attacked by anyone.
Atleast this way PvE players can go about their business while the PvP guys can all war eachother and PvP in the open world without bothering PvE players. I don't see how PvE players could really complain and as a PvP guy this would seem perfectly fine for me.
I think it's unfair to deny that there is niche there and people who are completely happy to play in it.
The non-PvP sandbox suffers from a lack of clear-cut examples on the market (Trammel-half of UO and cooperative servers for Minecraft are the only two that jump to mind; I think there's still a huge unexplored space of games here, but it's easy for me to say that when it's not my hours and dollars at risk trying to make it).
I think it's unfair to deny that there is niche there and people who are completely happy to play in it.
When we make statements such as "players", we're not talking about a niche group.
Furthermore, they have EVE. Heck, they have every sandbox that came out, it seems. Yeah, some of them suck, but it's not like themeparks do not suck right now.
The non-PvP sandbox suffers from a lack of clear-cut examples on the market
That means nothing. Everything suffers from examples before it's done. If you're afraid to experiment, get out of the gaming market.
It's funny how people talk about lack of innovation, but when something innovative is proposed, they tuck their tails and say "oh, it wasn't done before". That's how all video games used to be, you know.
Originally posted by UOvet
What's wrong with putting GvG back into sandbox games? You don't have to have FFA full loot. I think someone should try implementing GvG and if you are a warring guild/guilds you can then loot eachother, however if you're solo and/or in a guild that say isn't warred with anyone if that's what you want, then it wouldn't be an issue since you couldn't be attacked by anyone.
You mean the way EVE does it? Because last time I checked, that leads to plenty of griefing of industrial corps.
I think there is a lot of appeal to sandbox features, otherwise single and coop sandbox games would not sell as well as they sell. So, sandboxes can be appealing, they just need to be appealing in a massive setting.
It is not the 'sandbox' that is wrong. My guess is the insistence on ffa pvp that is the problem, and possibly the insistence on full loot mechanics. That is just my guess though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.
Did i miss some sandbox games getting released.? or is the op talking utter ****
The non-PvP sandbox suffers from a lack of clear-cut examples on the market
That means nothing. Everything suffers from examples before it's done. If you're afraid to experiment, get out of the gaming market.
It's funny how people talk about lack of innovation, but when something innovative is proposed, they tuck their tails and say "oh, it wasn't done before". That's how all video games used to be, you know.
I feel it's a neccessary contradiction.
I want innovation, I want the game of my dreams. I think I can see lots of viable MMO concepts out there which aren't being made. But I also think there is a lot of dead space between those good concepts. Video games used to be a lot cheaper to make and I don't feel it's realistic to expect a publisher to plunk down $50-100 million on an unproven idea. In this day and age, with the kind of budgets and expectations that exist for the high-end games, I feel more comfortable lobbying for an idea that assembles a few successful proof of concept indy games than lobbying for something I'm scribbling on a white sheet of paper.
heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..
sandbox=pvp=chaos=excitement
themepark=pve=order=tedium
I fixed that for you.
By the way, I'm not a PvPer as a rule.
Way to impose your point of view, thanks for speaking for all of us...
Just like Kenze was doing?
Exactly my point.
your point is rather dull.. how could you possibly take what i said as "imposing" the first line i clearly said
heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
I honestly believe that a large number of people using the term "sandbox MMORPG" have actually never played one. Never. To me it seems that all they know is that Darkfall is a sandbox MMORPG, and thus in their mind all sandboxes are like Darkfall.
Heck, there are sandbox MMORPGs without any PvP at all, even a sandbox MMORPG that has no combat at all, others that only have consensual PvP - but still people claim that sandbox MMORPG = FFA PvP with full loot.
Ignorants.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Originally posted by Larsa Ah, one of those threads again.I honestly believe that a large number of people using the term "sandbox MMORPG" have actually never played one. Never. To me it seems that all they know is that Darkfall is a sandbox MMORPG, and thus in their mind all sandboxes are like Darkfall.Heck, there are sandbox MMORPGs without any PvP at all, even a sandbox MMORPG that has no combat at all, others that only have consensual PvP - but still people claim that sandbox MMORPG = FFA PvP with full loot.Ignorants.
Well, the fact that most people don't even see Sandbox MMORPG that aren't FFAPVP/Full Loot might be part of the reason that they don't get the financing they need.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've been trying to get into WUrm Online lately, and even though it is a sandbox it just feels wierd....WHile I can do anything I want, by the time I log out I've accomplished little to nothing......I think the reason why so many people like themeparks more is you can log in for an hour and accomplish something....Pretty much every sandbox I've tried it takes hours to do anything.
Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.
Speak for yourself or be ridiculed. Lesson learned I hope.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Comments
Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today. Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.
I can see the point with FE, but to say that about Darkfall leads me to believe that you either didn't do anything other than PKing inUO or you never really played it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've been playing MMO's for the past 13 years. The 2 MMO's i played for the most times are sandbox. Asheron's Call from 1999 to 2004, Anarchy Online 2002 to 2006. The only theme park i played for and extensive period of time is WOW. All the other MMO's being launched since WOW i played them for a month or two max each.
I'm starving of a deep sandbox mmo's that's not a budget indie game with p2w cash shop. Seems all the devs cares these days is to produce the same kind of game the fastest, make their money and leave. I have seen litterally no innovation in MMO's since the WOW lauch. Most new MMO's just want to milk the WOW cow, but this cow is dead, long dead for me.
You missed it Chicago, but nice of you to slip in the cliche line of the week. In a true sandbox game nothing can be further from the truth.
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you limit someones ability to kill who they want, when they want then to them its no longer a sandbox.
I've seen the argument over and over. Give the killers the freedom and force the "weaker" Pvers to band together like cattle or hire some OP group of people to protect you.
This is what they consider freedom. The overlly aggressive players have complete access while everyone else gets to hide in a specific area of the game waiting to finally get picked off like scared deer.
This is why they rejected amazing games like Ryzom because it tried to structure Pvp.
I honestly don't think most of the people on this forum know what a sandbox game is...
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
This is where all the confusion rests. There are actually two completely different concepts commonly lumped together into the term "sandbox" : a FFA PvP game with politics and a verb-and-simulation based game with player-defined goals.
About the only thing everyone can agree on is that in a sandbox, the player motivations should be emergent from the rules rather than scripted by the devs.
Way to impose your point of view, thanks for speaking for all of us...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Just like Kenze was doing?
FFA PvP MMO's are not really what players want.*
Sandbox is not synonymous of FFA PVP. FFA PVP for me is for 14 years old boy with too much testosterone.
Agreed and Agreed +1 to both of you.
Speak for yourself, I love sandbox completely, my only reason for not getting into most of them is their specific story and the fact that most of them are Sci-Fi (except for that SWG one which cannot be mentioned here), and also just about all of them require a sub and I prefer F2P due to financial reasons. Going back to the story, that might be what other Sandboxers are finding lacking, it's never the actual sandbox mechanics themselves. As for myself, keeping my eye on some Fantasy titles that are up and coming like Archage, that looks just *drool*
What's wrong with putting GvG back into sandbox games? You don't have to have FFA full loot. I think someone should try implementing GvG and if you are a warring guild/guilds you can then loot eachother, however if you're solo and/or in a guild that say isn't warred with anyone if that's what you want, then it wouldn't be an issue since you couldn't be attacked by anyone.
Atleast this way PvE players can go about their business while the PvP guys can all war eachother and PvP in the open world without bothering PvE players. I don't see how PvE players could really complain and as a PvP guy this would seem perfectly fine for me.
I think it's unfair to deny that there is niche there and people who are completely happy to play in it.
The non-PvP sandbox suffers from a lack of clear-cut examples on the market (Trammel-half of UO and cooperative servers for Minecraft are the only two that jump to mind; I think there's still a huge unexplored space of games here, but it's easy for me to say that when it's not my hours and dollars at risk trying to make it).
You mean the way EVE does it? Because last time I checked, that leads to plenty of griefing of industrial corps.
It is not the 'sandbox' that is wrong. My guess is the insistence on ffa pvp that is the problem, and possibly the insistence on full loot mechanics. That is just my guess though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Did i miss some sandbox games getting released.? or is the op talking utter ****
Exactly my point.
I feel it's a neccessary contradiction.
I want innovation, I want the game of my dreams. I think I can see lots of viable MMO concepts out there which aren't being made. But I also think there is a lot of dead space between those good concepts. Video games used to be a lot cheaper to make and I don't feel it's realistic to expect a publisher to plunk down $50-100 million on an unproven idea. In this day and age, with the kind of budgets and expectations that exist for the high-end games, I feel more comfortable lobbying for an idea that assembles a few successful proof of concept indy games than lobbying for something I'm scribbling on a white sheet of paper.
your point is rather dull.. how could you possibly take what i said as "imposing" the first line i clearly said
heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
Ah, one of those threads again.
I honestly believe that a large number of people using the term "sandbox MMORPG" have actually never played one. Never. To me it seems that all they know is that Darkfall is a sandbox MMORPG, and thus in their mind all sandboxes are like Darkfall.
Heck, there are sandbox MMORPGs without any PvP at all, even a sandbox MMORPG that has no combat at all, others that only have consensual PvP - but still people claim that sandbox MMORPG = FFA PvP with full loot.
Ignorants.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Well, the fact that most people don't even see Sandbox MMORPG that aren't FFAPVP/Full Loot might be part of the reason that they don't get the financing they need.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've been trying to get into WUrm Online lately, and even though it is a sandbox it just feels wierd....WHile I can do anything I want, by the time I log out I've accomplished little to nothing......I think the reason why so many people like themeparks more is you can log in for an hour and accomplish something....Pretty much every sandbox I've tried it takes hours to do anything.
Speak for yourself or be ridiculed. Lesson learned I hope.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.