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Sandbox MMOs are not really what players want

IsasisIsasis San Diego, CAPosts: 416Member

Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

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MMORPG.com is like 4chan, but for gamers.

WoW already does WoW good.

PvPers that gank newbies, are carebears. They don't want a challenge (like a carebear), they just want easy mode (like a carebear) and a no challenge combat (like a carebear).

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Comments

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    So... it's no different than a "themepark" or "wow clone"?

    Who knew?

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon

    You are blowing smoke, all modern sandbox style game have been underfunded indie efforts catering to the extremes of the genre, of course they've been ill received. I never felt more "real" in a gaming universe than I did in EVE.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member

    *sigh*

    Do we really need to have this conversation over and over?

     

    I suppose likening it to capitalism is sort of a new approach even though I think your dead wrong about both. Eve is both a sandbox game that delivers alot of what people like and it embodies capitalism very well and it is loved and has been loved for many years.

     

    People know what they want better than you know what they want.

  • KenzeKenze Posts: 1,214Member Uncommon

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

    sandbox=pvp=chaos=willynilly

    themepark=pve=order=structure

     

     

    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    —Lao-Tze

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member

    What non indie sandbox game has been released in the last couple years?

  • GibboniciGibbonici LeedsPosts: 472Member Common
    Originally posted by Kenze

    heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

    sandbox=pvp=chaos=excitement

    themepark=pve=order=tedium

      

     

    I fixed that for you.

    By the way, I'm not a PvPer as a rule.

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Des Moines, IAPosts: 329Member Common

    Another one of these topics is really not what players want.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by f0dell54

    Another one of these topics is really not what players want.

    Spot on. +1

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Isasis

    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

     First not all players want the same things. Second Not all players want the same things from sandbox games. Third sandboxes, being unproven usually have no funding and no chance of success. Forth in capitalist societies the majority of people are middle class and considered successful not nobodies. Only in the United States are you considered poor and a nobody for owning one house instead of two, The problem is with the perception not reality.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,028Member Uncommon

    The players want a fun game that feels complete, not half done.

    It does not really matter if it is a sandbox or not as long as the game is good.

    But let's face it, the release rate of well made MMOs are something like one every year. And since 95% of all MMOs releasing are themeparks we rarely see an acceptable sandbox, it was many years now.

    People don't want crappy made game, no m,atter if they are sandboxes or themeparks, and most MMOs are dangerously close to disasters.

    You are just making the misstake that assuming what people don't like with DF and MO is that they are sandboxes, the real problem is that they are sloppy made game by amateurs and with too little budget.

    Most players don't care if you slap sandbox or themepark on a game.

  • Dwarfman420Dwarfman420 Kazoo, MIPosts: 207Member

    OP, name just 2 Sandbox MMO's that have released in the last 5 years that wasnt indie low budget trash.

     

    Now name me 6 AAA MMO themeparks that have failed in the last 4 years that are now on f2p life support..

     

    It would appear nobody wants themeparks either by your logic.

     

    Elitists that wanna be top dog are in every game btw.

  • DarwaDarwa CambridgePosts: 2,184Member Uncommon

    Sorry, OP, but you're wrong. It goes more akin to this:

    Sandbox = Yes

    Open PvP/Full Loot = No.

    As said many times before in many other threads by many other posters, the problem is that indie devs put these things together and you end up with something that only a handful want (See Darkfall and Mortal Online as examples).

     

    ****EDIT****

    Actually, I believe the OP to be a troll. Someone with an account that old surely couldn't be that naiive to the wants of the members of this site (and beyond).

  • Dwarfman420Dwarfman420 Kazoo, MIPosts: 207Member

    ****EDIT****

    Actually, I believe the OP to be a troll. Someone with an account that old surely couldn't be that naiive to the wants of the members of this site (and beyond).

     

    Or he's a college kid with a trust fund that thinks he knows everything but doesnt.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Isasis
    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

    Really, the only thing you can say about previous sandbox games is that those games are not what players want. That could be for reasons having nothing to do with the sandbox features of the games.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by Dwarfman420

    OP, name just 2 Sandbox MMO's that have released in the last 5 years that wasnt indie low budget trash.

     

    Now name me 6 AAA MMO themeparks that have failed in the last 4 years that are now on f2p life support..

     

    It would appear nobody wants themeparks either by your logic.

     

    Elitists that wanna be top dog are in every game btw.

    Seems like MMOs have gone back to being a Niche genre. 

    Time to stop declaring MMOs with under 100k subs a failure because that's the best we will get until a New game makes MMOs popular again.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    You are blowing smoke, all modern sandbox style game have been underfunded indie efforts catering tobthe extremes of the genre, of course they've been ill received. I never felt more "real" in a gaming universe than I did in EVE.

    Agreed. Many of the recent attempts at a 'sandbox' MMO were created by teams with no actual experience and little resources, resulting in poorly created games that often lacked any real gameplay outside of hitting each other with sticks. The OP is regurgitating talking points, and not really offering anything remote true, let alone new. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WildNatureWildNature FT CAMPBELL, KYPosts: 51Member
    Originally posted by Isasis

    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

    I concur.


    * Good, honorable, gamers will continue to pay the bills so freeloaders can enjoy the game.
    * Sandboxers and Carebears are 2 sides to the same coin.

    image
  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Isasis
    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.


    Really, the only thing you can say about previous sandbox games is that those games are not what players want. That could be for reasons having nothing to do with the sandbox features of the games.

     

    No he's right. Sandbox MMOers have no idea what they want.

    They remember oldschool games through rose tinted glasses.

    I bet you anything if Games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth & Perpetuum (Last four moderatly popular sandbox games)  released back in the Early SWG or UO days they would be considered the best games ever. 

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    You are blowing smoke, all modern sandbox style game have been underfunded indie efforts catering tobthe extremes of the genre, of course they've been ill received. I never felt more "real" in a gaming universe than I did in EVE.

    Agreed. Many of the recent attempts at a 'sandbox' MMO were created by teams with no actual experience and little resources, resulting in poorly created games that often lacked any real gameplay outside of hitting each other with sticks. The OP is regurgitating talking points, and not really offering anything remote true, let alone new. 

    Eve didn't start that way. Its evolved over time to become what it is.

    Today's gamers wont stick with a game as long as they stuck with Eve to make it better.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • WildNatureWildNature FT CAMPBELL, KYPosts: 51Member
    Originally posted by Z3R01
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Isasis
    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.


    Really, the only thing you can say about previous sandbox games is that those games are not what players want. That could be for reasons having nothing to do with the sandbox features of the games.

     

    No he's right. Sandbox MMOers have no idea what they want.

    They remember oldschool games through rose tinted glasses.

    I bet you anything if Games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth & Perpetuum (Last four moderatly popular sandbox games)  released back in the Early SWG or UO days they would be considered the best games ever. 

     

    That's stretching it a bit. I still have high hopes for Fallen Earth but after 3 months with the game finally stopped playing. It's PVP or lack thereof was enough. I like the dynamics of pvp (arena or mini-game based...I don't care but I love pvp.)


    * Good, honorable, gamers will continue to pay the bills so freeloaders can enjoy the game.
    * Sandboxers and Carebears are 2 sides to the same coin.

    image
  • KhayotixKhayotix Somewhere, FLPosts: 220Member Uncommon

    I can honestly say with 99.9% certainty that if a Sandbox game say along the lines of Everquest or World of Warcraft, in terms of fantasy medieval type, came out, it was properly funded as to be a complete AAA sandbox, without PVPFFA loot, it would be a killer hit, maybe not 10 million players, but then again who knows, but still very VERY profitable and successful. Players want a harder more challenging game, they want that yet still want the accessability to come in for 15 minutes or 15 hours. It can be done. They want to adventure solo or with friends, it can be done there is a happy medium. Making Group play Challenging, making Solo play even more so, but not impossible. You should always be able to solo but it shouldnt be EZmode. Robust Housing and Guild Halls, no instancing except maybe raids. World raids and bosses out the whazoo. Areas such as Wintergrasp sanctioned for Open World PVP so even if you are on a PvE server you can find areas to go kill and be killed. A full PVP system for those who enjoy it. Etc

     

    They can do this. They need to do this to revitalize the genre, and it would NOT cost as much as that abomination called SWTOR. 300 mil for that garbage is obscene.

    I think we need this as a genre, and a AAA developer will soon realize this.

    image
  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by WildNature
    Originally posted by Z3R01
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Isasis
    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.


    Really, the only thing you can say about previous sandbox games is that those games are not what players want. That could be for reasons having nothing to do with the sandbox features of the games.

     

    No he's right. Sandbox MMOers have no idea what they want.

    They remember oldschool games through rose tinted glasses.

    I bet you anything if Games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth & Perpetuum (Last four moderatly popular sandbox games)  released back in the Early SWG or UO days they would be considered the best games ever. 

     

    That's stretching it a bit. I still have high hopes for Fallen Earth but after 3 months with the game finally stopped playing. It's PVP or lack thereof was enough. I like the dynamics of pvp (arena or mini-game based...I don't care but I love pvp.)

    You say that now but if FE released at the same time SWG or UO released it would have killed both games easily. 

    Seriously compared to something like FE or even DarkFall, UO and SWG were pathetic. 

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    There is room for sandbox games if a company comes along that is dedicated to it, and doesn't limit themselves to exclusively the PVP crowd.  I know there are a lot of folks out there that like PVP, and that is fine.  But there are a lot of us that like PVE only as well, and there is maybe 2-3 games total that are sandbox like that don't force you to PVP.  All of these games barely have 500 people playing, and have such slow development times that honestly it isn't worth investing the time.  So get a decent company to make one, that can cater to both, and you will see that a sandbox game can work.  All you need to do is give the players the tools to have fun, we will do the rest.

  • WildNatureWildNature FT CAMPBELL, KYPosts: 51Member
    Originally posted by Saryhl

    I can honestly say with 99.9% certainty that if a Sandbox game say along the lines of Everquest or World of Warcraft, in terms of fantasy medieval type, came out, it was properly funded as to be a complete AAA sandbox, without PVPFFA loot, it would be a killer hit, maybe not 10 million players, but then again who knows, but still very VERY profitable and successful. Players want a harder more challenging game, they want that yet still want the accessability to come in for 15 minutes or 15 hours. It can be done. They want to adventure solo or with friends, it can be done there is a happy medium. Making Group play Challenging, making Solo play even more so, but not impossible. You should always be able to solo but it shouldnt be EZmode. Robust Housing and Guild Halls, no instancing except maybe raids. World raids and bosses out the whazoo. Areas such as Wintergrasp sanctioned for Open World PVP so even if you are on a PvE server you can find areas to go kill and be killed. A full PVP system for those who enjoy it. Etc

     

    They can do this. They need to do this to revitalize the genre, and it would NOT cost as much as that abomination called SWTOR. 300 mil for that garbage is obscene.

    I think we need this as a genre, and a AAA developer will soon realize this.

    I sort of agree. There needs to be full leveling of PVP or PVE or a mix there of, from level 1 to max level. That will keep players going no matter the genre (fantasy, sci-fi, etc.) Also, crafting. Crafting is a big time consumer and I still believe that instead of requiring 50 recipes at 1 second each, make it 2 or 3 recipes at 5 minutes a pop...will help with a game's longevitity.

     

    I also believe that content should be randomized at the end game. If the game dev's could make it where maps generated on their own in a said dungeon at end game...like a straight line one time, then a snake-trail the next...just adding more dynamics to the game...will also help tremendously.


    * Good, honorable, gamers will continue to pay the bills so freeloaders can enjoy the game.
    * Sandboxers and Carebears are 2 sides to the same coin.

    image
  • ChicagoCubChicagoCub Chicago, ILPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by Isasis

    Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

    If everyone is special, no one is special.

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