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Player Housing - Why has this feature gone from a priority to a feature most developers couldnt care

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
     

    how do you know they wouldnt care?

    if they made housing part of your characters progress my view is that people like housing a LOT more than they do now. You disagree. reality is likely somewhere between the two. How do we proove it?

     

     

     

    I don't

    I only say "they MAY not care". No one knows. That is the point. You claim there is a market. I only claim you have no evidence and that you do not know. I did NOT claim that there is no market.

    You cannot prove it until you have evidence of something that works.

    True.

    Only thing is, there isnt really GOOD evidence for the inverse either and a lot of people seem to take that position. I am going out of a limb here (because I am a crazy risk taker) and I am going to say I think that there is a good chance people would like housing a lot more then they do now if housing were better and I have zero evidence to back it up. but then again, I have b*lls

    ADDED: actually using your baselines for proof these two statements would be more true then not true.

    1. gamers like to kill people because the evidence we have suggests it.

    2. more gamers would not play if free bl*w jobs were offered becasue we dont have any evidence suggesting that it would.


    I don't agree with (1) since there is no gamer (or very few) that actually kill a person. Virtual violence is not the same as real violence.

    (2) .. yeah .. i agree. There is simply no evidence. Wnat to set up an experiment to test that? Note that it is perfectly fine to propose any hypothesis.

    I would have no objection if you statement is "my hypothesis is that if housing is improve (in whatever way), then the demand will be much higher". You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and making any hypothesis.

    The real question is, will you bet $1M or your own money on your hypothesis. I won't bet a single cent on the demand of housing features. Will you?

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
     

    how do you know they wouldnt care?

    if they made housing part of your characters progress my view is that people like housing a LOT more than they do now. You disagree. reality is likely somewhere between the two. How do we proove it?

     

     

     

    I don't

    I only say "they MAY not care". No one knows. That is the point. You claim there is a market. I only claim you have no evidence and that you do not know. I did NOT claim that there is no market.

    You cannot prove it until you have evidence of something that works.

    True.

    Only thing is, there isnt really GOOD evidence for the inverse either and a lot of people seem to take that position. I am going out of a limb here (because I am a crazy risk taker) and I am going to say I think that there is a good chance people would like housing a lot more then they do now if housing were better and I have zero evidence to back it up. but then again, I have b*lls

    ADDED: actually using your baselines for proof these two statements would be more true then not true.

    1. gamers like to kill people because the evidence we have suggests it.

    2. more gamers would not play if free bl*w jobs were offered becasue we dont have any evidence suggesting that it would.


    I don't agree with (1) since there is no gamer (or very few) that actually kill a person. Virtual violence is not the same as real violence.

    (2) .. yeah .. i agree. There is simply no evidence. Wnat to set up an experiment to test that? Note that it is perfectly fine to propose any hypothesis.

    I would have no objection if you statement is "my hypothesis is that if housing is improve (in whatever way), then the demand will be much higher". You are obviously entitled to your opinion, and making any hypothesis.

    The real question is, will you bet $1M or your own money on your hypothesis. I won't bet a single cent on the demand of housing features. Will you?

    if I had 10mil yes I would bet 1mil on my 'hypothesis' that I feel pretty confident in

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    if I had 10mil yes I would bet 1mil on my 'hypothesis' that I feel pretty confident in

     

    Meaning you don't have that much confidence.  Would you bet every last cent you had that housing, done perfectly, however you want to define it, would make an MMO successful?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Meaning you don't have that much confidence.  Would you bet every last cent you had that housing, done perfectly, however you want to define it, would make an MMO successful?

    You're aware that the redefinition game, once begun, reaches ad absurdum remarkably quickly, yes?  Might not be a free license you want to offer.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,681Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Meaning you don't have that much confidence.  Would you bet every last cent you had that housing, done perfectly, however you want to define it, would make an MMO successful?

    You're aware that the redefinition game, once begun, reaches ad absurdum remarkably quickly, yes?  Might not be a free license you want to offer.

    Yes and no. It depends on how you define ad absurdum, because ..

     

    I kid! I kid! :) 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member

    I like player housing but since the last crop of MMOS have not managed to keep my interest, housing would be relatively pointless.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    if I had 10mil yes I would bet 1mil on my 'hypothesis' that I feel pretty confident in

     

    Meaning you don't have that much confidence.  Would you bet every last cent you had that housing, done perfectly, however you want to define it, would make an MMO successful?

    it has nothing to do with confidence it does however have a lot to do with the fact that I personally have many things more important I want to spend money on then game investments. Plus, to be honest if I had 1 million dollars to invest I wouldnt invest in ANYTHING. I would put it in the bank and just live simply of that.

    I will say this however, IF I had decided to create an MMO with my own money you bet your a$$ i would put in very good housing and I WOULDNT waste money on 1/2 a$$ed housing like most devs do. If I am going to do it, its not going to be fluff

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • monarc333monarc333 New York, NYPosts: 611Member Uncommon

    Well, frankly, I dont know the answer to this. But, its not all as bad as you may think. GW2, will have "districts", sorta like personal housing. Rifts will have "slivers" in their new expac coming this year. We still have EQ2 (which has the best implementation of housing imho). There's also Vanguard with their terrific housing. And, theres SWTOR, with their "ship is a house" philosophy.

    I really think WoW missed the boat on housing. Its just one of those things people have to take up there time at max lvl. Never understood WoW's thought process on that, even when they explained it.

    Dunno, seems like we have housing. Just not in every game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    if I had 10mil yes I would bet 1mil on my 'hypothesis' that I feel pretty confident in

     

    Meaning you don't have that much confidence.  Would you bet every last cent you had that housing, done perfectly, however you want to define it, would make an MMO successful?

    it has nothing to do with confidence it does however have a lot to do with the fact that I personally have many things more important I want to spend money on then game investments. Plus, to be honest if I had 1 million dollars to invest I wouldnt invest in ANYTHING. I would put it in the bank and just live simply of that.

    I will say this however, IF I had decided to create an MMO with my own money you bet your a$$ i would put in very good housing and I WOULDNT waste money on 1/2 a$$ed housing like most devs do. If I am going to do it, its not going to be fluff

    To be fair to SEANCAD, 10% of networth is not nothing .. 1m out of 10m .. there is *some* confidence there.

    Personally, I don't invest a dime in ANY GAME .. not even the ones i like, or i see a trend. There is just too many risks. I would MUCH RATHER put money into real estate and BUY the game i like to play.

     

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    I've never really seen the point of housing, it's just a weird thing to want in a game, unless you're playing the Sims or something. It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. Even weirder is when I consider that I'm sitting in my house playing a game that involves someone sitting in their house.

    Personally, I'd rather be delving dungeons and alternative planes than worrying about what wallpaper I should put up in my living room.
  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    I've never really seen the point of housing, it's just a weird thing to want in a game, unless you're playing the Sims or something. It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. Even weirder is when I consider that I'm sitting in my house playing a game that involves someone sitting in their house.

    Personally, I'd rather be delving dungeons and alternative planes than worrying about what wallpaper I should put up in my living room.

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time... because the more time you spend doing "epic/herioc" crap, the less it will seem as such. Besides, how many times are you going to rehash that one epic dungeon for lootz when you cap? Are you really satisfied with doing that ad infinitum until the next one comes - then doing that one over and over again?

    Housing falls under "metagame", and it's hardly something you can burnout on - and in the cases like UO/SWG/Vanguard/EQ2 - it adds a crazy amount of new content for collector types. What does junk loot mean to you? Wanna guess what it meant to a SWG player that has a place to display it?

    It's really something for people that have initiative, though. People with no sense of personal direction in a game are never going to see the true value of it.... there's no points to grind or tangible rewards (like shiny shoulderpads). It's simply like a personal zen garden that you update regularly.

    ~and people don't just "sit" in their house all day, get real.

     

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,223Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    I've never really seen the point of housing, it's just a weird thing to want in a game, unless you're playing the Sims or something. It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. Even weirder is when I consider that I'm sitting in my house playing a game that involves someone sitting in their house.

    Personally, I'd rather be delving dungeons and alternative planes than worrying about what wallpaper I should put up in my living room.

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time... because the more time you spend doing "epic/herioc" crap, the less it will seem as such. Besides, how many times are you going to rehash that one epic dungeon for lootz when you cap? Are you really satisfied with doing that ad infinitum until the next one comes - then doing that one over and over again?

    Housing falls under "metagame", and it's hardly something you can burnout on - and in the cases like UO/SWG/Vanguard/EQ2 - it adds a crazy amount of new content for collector types. What does junk loot mean to you? Wanna guess what it meant to a SWG player that has a place to display it?

    It's really something for people that have initiative, though. People with no sense of personal direction in a game are never going to see the true value of it.... there's no points to grind or tangible rewards (like shiny shoulderpads). It's simply like a personal zen garden that you update regularly.

    ~and people don't just "sit" in their house all day, get real.

    That is a good summary.  When I played PnP as a kid (whether it was DnD, TopSecret, Traveller, ICE, etc) we didn't just go out and kill stuff on a mission.  We built worlds, castles, forts, strongholds, hideouts.  We owned businesses and had diplomatic adventures.  We spent a lot of time elaborating on the environment around us.  Having a small piece of the gameworld to customize isn't much different on a more simplistic level.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    I've never really seen the point of housing, it's just a weird thing to want in a game, unless you're playing the Sims or something. It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. Even weirder is when I consider that I'm sitting in my house playing a game that involves someone sitting in their house.

    Personally, I'd rather be delving dungeons and alternative planes than worrying about what wallpaper I should put up in my living room.

    You know, the Ancient Samurai used to go fight huge, bloody, epic battles and then when they returned home they would enjoy a Tea Ceremony, Meditation in a Zen garden and writing poetry.

    They believed the heart of a warrior was not limited to just fighting.

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
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  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    ... It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. ...

    Well, the current themeparks make the great adventurer fight 10 rats and collect apples instead. I find that more odd than to decorate the bedroom ...

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • EnlivenEnliven Bong?, ARPosts: 9Member

    I like to think of the house actually having a pretty decent function in the game, but I come from the days of UO. I see the house in the game as a place to show off your accomplishments to other players, even when you're not online. It also is a great place for the player to meet up with other plays on their own terms. It's the only environment where you can control who enters, leaves, what's locked versus unlocked. This is from the view of UO style housing though, as I haven't personally seen any other game give it more than a half-assed shot.

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    I think the main reason player housing has gone away or poorly executed is it does not fit with the typical mmo design we now see.  The mmo experience today has a beginning and end and anything that is not relevant to that progress is extraneous and thus irrelevant.

     

    A lot of people don't understand player housing and it's inclusion makes no sense what so ever.  They need defined carefully developed and driven content.  Anything open ended is foriegn to their mindset.

     

    I don't think it's really generational, but certain things appeal to certain types of people.  When I was a kid, I was not one of those people saying, "There's nothing for kids to do around here."  I invented activities to keep me occupied and entertained.  Now days everyone has so many forms of entertainment to choose from, so the idea of creating your own entertainment is a foriegn concept to many people.  I think we have become to a great extent passive consumers of others creativity, so when a developer says here's some tools, do with it what you will, a lot of people scratch their heads and say 'huh'?

     

    Also, for a lot of people gaming is ego.  They want to be the best.  They want fame or infamy among their peers.  Decorating your house doesn't really equate with that mindset most of the time.  It's seen more as a side activity which is basically wasted energy toward acheiving superiority.  

     

    Those are some of the reasons I can think of.

  • UOvetUOvet Fort Myers, FLPosts: 514Member
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    I've never really seen the point of housing, it's just a weird thing to want in a game, unless you're playing the Sims or something. It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. Even weirder is when I consider that I'm sitting in my house playing a game that involves someone sitting in their house.

    Personally, I'd rather be delving dungeons and alternative planes than worrying about what wallpaper I should put up in my living room.

     

    Ever played a game that did it correctly? The thing is in my opinion housing is kind of pointless unless there is a partial loot/full loot system. I probably wouldn't of thought housing was so great in UO if there wasn't a chance to lose your stuff. That to me is what made having a house beneficial for one, but it was also great because it served a purpose and wasn't there just cause.

     

    It's also great for guild meetings, grouping up and getting organized among other things like building neighborhoods or guild towns. Good shit. Games don't have "Gate" spells though anymore or ways you can mark locations on a rune or what have you. See, in UO it was great because everyone would meet at their 2 story, their tower, maybe their castle even. Then we would open a "gate" into one of our marked areas (wherever you wanted in the game) and just gate our entire guild in and cause havoc.

     

     

    UGHHHH!!!! COME BACK GTO MEEEEEE!!!!

     

    ps - people also used their housings for cybering (no joke), cause as a ghost in UO you still see the game and can run wherever..so..at one point you could run into houses as a ghost, which then caused all sorts of exploited, but funny when you ran into a couple cybering in their house.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon

    Player housing has to be done from the start.  The world has to be designed with player housing in mind.  The game play needs to support player housing.   

    A true sandbox game needs to give players reasons to quest not only by "themepark" quest but dynamics that drive a player to do something.   Tools that allow other players to influence each other.  Interdependence that players succeed working together or rely on each other.  Player structures can fit be important part of a gaming world.

    I've always believed a sandbox world to reach full potential will need some form of FFA PVP.  But there must be safety and repercussions for killing outside the the game design if it's say guild vs. guild.   Risk vs. Reward game play would be needed as well.  A large open gaming world without fast travel into unknown parts.

    For example lets say the best items are player crafted except very rare drops.   Crafters get new recipes for new powerful armor and weapons but to make the items it requires a metal that's found out in the great wild.  You have prospector adventure types who can find these metals.  One guy  who find it set up mine because it's valuable metal because it's rare.   To protect the mine and monpolize the resource the players guild sets up a city around the mine.   Three things a new recipe for crafter, new armor and new resource can create player intrigue and bring value to player structures and use.  

    There should still be stuff like raids, the starting area's should be typical MMORPG fair, but to experience more players should venture out and form their own cities to get the best loot and best crafting materials.   I think it's a fair compromise to themepark and Sandbox.  

      

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by GTwander
     

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time..

     

    Well, play farmville. No adventure. No dragons. No demons. Lots of farming stuff. Perfect for you.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GTwander
     

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time..

     

    Well, play farmville. No adventure. No dragons. No demons. Lots of farming stuff. Perfect for you.

    Nah, there was once full featured MMORPGs. I'll take that in new forms. Thanks though.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GTwander
     

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time..

     

    Well, play farmville. No adventure. No dragons. No demons. Lots of farming stuff. Perfect for you.

    Or, if the idea of a 'virtual world' doesn't mean as much as the 'game' itself, and all you care about is non-stop erogenous kill grinds and corpse looting, then *you* can go play Duke Nukem Forever.

    I hear it has so much testosterone that it'll make your balls drop 4 inches. Perfect for you.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

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  • dorugudorugu falkenbergPosts: 166Member Uncommon

    mebbe they think it takes to much time encode and balance?

    or perhaps not enough ppl wants  player owned housing?

    i dunno but id like 2 ave a house n chest to dump off some of the junk i usually carry oin me at times :)

     

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    I think it's largely due to the current design theory that caters to casuals. Casual players want to log on, kill a few things, maybe pug a dungeon or do a few BG's then log off.

     

    They have neither the time nor the interest in owning player housing and all that comes with it.

     

    TBH Player housing is something I would say suits a sandbox more than a themepark anyway. And that brings us back to current trends in MMO design, themeparks for casuals with some raids for the more "serious" players. I use the word serious loosely.

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Elftown, MEPosts: 489Member
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    I've never really seen the point of housing, it's just a weird thing to want in a game, unless you're playing the Sims or something. It's like you're a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons, but also like to spend time decorating the bedroom and making the garden look nice. Um.. odd. Even weirder is when I consider that I'm sitting in my house playing a game that involves someone sitting in their house.

    Personally, I'd rather be delving dungeons and alternative planes than worrying about what wallpaper I should put up in my living room.

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time... because the more time you spend doing "epic/herioc" crap, the less it will seem as such. Besides, how many times are you going to rehash that one epic dungeon for lootz when you cap? Are you really satisfied with doing that ad infinitum until the next one comes - then doing that one over and over again?

    Housing falls under "metagame", and it's hardly something you can burnout on - and in the cases like UO/SWG/Vanguard/EQ2 - it adds a crazy amount of new content for collector types. What does junk loot mean to you? Wanna guess what it meant to a SWG player that has a place to display it?

    It's really something for people that have initiative, though. People with no sense of personal direction in a game are never going to see the true value of it.... there's no points to grind or tangible rewards (like shiny shoulderpads). It's simply like a personal zen garden that you update regularly.

    ~and people don't just "sit" in their house all day, get real.

     

    There really isn't a lot of you.

    a yo ho ho

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GTwander
     

    A lot of us don't care to be a great adventurer fighting dragons and demons 100% of the time.

    Some of us want to be moisture farmers and own a ranch house on our off time..

     

    Well, play farmville. No adventure. No dragons. No demons. Lots of farming stuff. Perfect for you.

    Nah, there was once full featured MMORPGs. I'll take that in new forms. Thanks though.


    Hmm in which MMORPG you can own a FARM and raise crops? (I suppose it will be WOW after MOP).

     

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