Ever play Go? White tiles. Black tiles. 19x19 board. Take turns placing tiles to capture area and opponent tiles. Simple to learn, takes a life-time to master. As Go illustrates, simplicity in design can often offer far more complexity than complexity in design that ultimately leads to a paucity of choices because the complexity of the rule-set and options ultimately constrains optimal strategies into a few "win button" scenarios. In TSW I find the simplicity concept, from limited play, to be carried-forward, to a great extent, in the skill/combat system.
This is my impression after spending significant time in TSW. My issue is and has always been the animations. It has nothing to do specifically to the combat or its mechanics. It has always been the visual representation of that, which they've improved. I wouldn't say to the point that would make me 100% happy though.
Would you say Go is more complex to master than Chess?
Complexity in design doesn't stop immersive gameplay.
Poor animations and character models ruin immersion.
I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.
Around the time UO released in 1997, it had decent graphics compared to other games of that time period. Especially games that did not require a 3DFX card.
It's all relative really. I remember playing games 10 years ago and thinking "wow, this game looks amazing!" but if I were to load up the same games now, I will probably be disappointed.
Either way, graphics is the wrong word to use when talking about games. It's not just about the number of the polygons, it's about the aesthetics.
TSW has great world aesthetics but their character aesthetics leave much to be desired. The fact that they've decided to go with the more realistic looking characters just makes poor models and animations stand out that much more.
Around the time UO released in 1997, it had decent graphics compared to other games of that time period. Especially games that did not require a 3DFX card.
It's all relative really. I remember playing games 10 years ago and thinking "wow, this game looks amazing!" but if I were to load up the same games now, I will probably be disappointed.
Either way, graphics is the wrong word to use when talking about games. It's not just about the number of the polygons, it's about the aesthetics.
TSW has great world aesthetics but their character aesthetics leave much to be desired. The fact that they've decided to go with the more realistic looking characters just makes poor models and animations stand out that much more.
agreed also this has been posted in many forums before but if you don't get the difference between graphics and aesthetics watch this
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.
I think he meant that in today's day and age, poor graphics ruin immersion. I can see that point.
Would you play a game that released today with UO's graphics? I sure wouldn't. Nothing against such a game, but the graphics would say to me that either the studio didn't care or that it is a very small studio and so quality of service would probably be an issue.
I'd say precisely the same thing about FFXI's community that you said about UO's. I think needing to group on the journey (NEEDING to), makes the community be nicer.
I've never played another game like XI, where you just flat had to group.. I've looked (I tried XIV), but I've never found one. I'd give anything to have 2004-08~ XI back.
My best group and server memories come from XI.
I would argue that good graphics ruin imagination...Imagination is what made poor graphic and no graphic RPG games so great.
We're talking about video games, not board games. In this medium, visually stimulating the player is just an important as stimulating him with sounds, gameplay elements and story.
Let's not start throwing words like "imagination" and "community" around. Those are basically nonsense words that can be used to support any kind of fluffy pie-in-the-sky argument.
The real debate is this: does TSW provide a fun game to actually play, beyond the story (which I think is great and fresh) and the overall game world.
My answer from the hours of beta I played last night is mixed.
- On the one hand, I really enjoy the skill tree and 7/7 system and having to choose trade-offs with cooldowns or utility/CC to push damage versatility, I like using different sets of abilities for different situations.
Unlike some people here who think it takes a PhD in algorithmic computer science to work out the skill circles, I think the skill system is very simple, with combos that obviously work well, things like 1 ability creates a debuff that makes another ability resource-free or deal more damage.
Those are basic synergies and it doesn't take being a rocket scientist to work all that out in a couple of hours of staring at the wheel. It is really fun however to work out good builds, and to use correct builds for different situations and roles.
- On the other hand, I think the combat is utter garbage.
The game feels cheap to play, badly programmed with syrupy controls and horrid animations.
They need to either change the game engine or get new animators to reprogram everything about the combat because right now it is utterly unacceptable for a 2012 game. Simply put, they cannot release TSW in its current state, because it will flop hard.
I'll keep playing once the maintenance is over but so far, those are my impressions of the gameplay itself (not the story, questing system, atmosphere etc).
And the fans of the game constantly want to call anyone, like me, who dislikes the combat a troll, a bad, or just that I don't understand the game.
I've been told the problem is that I want simple cookie cutters.
It's none of the above. I feel confined by such a simple rotation.
I get where you are coming from, but to me other MMOs has made me feel confined by too large of a rotation. Pressing 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 etc etc never equaled more fun or challenge to me. If anything it took away from the fun because instead of watching and enjoying the game, I was too busy staring at my cool downs and waiting for the next mole to pop up.
Your opinion is valid, but there is another opinion besides yours.
Very nice link. I haven't played much of TSW but the graphics just felt blocky and the animations forced. This is from someone that loves the look and feel of EQ, which much lower poly count and much blockier graphics.
Originally posted by Blessings
FYI, in this game you will not be pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
You will be pressing 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1 oh look a CD came up, 6,2,3,1,1,1,1,1..... etc
And the fans of the game constantly want to call anyone, like me, who dislikes the combat a troll, a bad, or just that I don't understand the game.
I've been told the problem is that I want simple cookie cutters.
It's none of the above. I feel confined by such a simple rotation.
I get where you are coming from, but to me other MMOs has made me feel confined by too large of a rotation. Pressing 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 etc etc never equaled more fun or challenge to me. If anything it took away from the fun because instead of watching and enjoying the game, I was too busy staring at my cool downs and waiting for the next mole to pop up.
Your opinion is valid, but there is another opinion besides yours.
I can respect that. Blizzard, for instance, has often bemoaned that players are more "watching the UI" than "watching the game".
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
FYI, in this game you will not be pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
You will be pressing 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1 oh look a CD came up, 6,2,3,1,1,1,1,1..... etc
That is true for healers, tanks, and dps alike.
This is what happens when you remove autoattack.
Eh..
On my brand new char this weekend, an Elementalist/Pistols, it's this:
4, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 3, 1, 2
Mob should be dead..
1 is a 1s cast time builder
4 is a instant builder on a 5s cd that deals more damage if I have no resources
2 is a 2-cost 1s cast time st nuke
3 is a 5-cost channeled finisher using a separate resource
I have one other ability, currently, and it's a 3-cost 1.5s cast AoE.
But srsly, don't blame the removal of auto-attack. Rotations are of this nature with or without it.
Aye, it has nothing to do w/ autoattack (or the lack thereof). The combat is built around skill rotations. There are barely any skills that are reactionary in nature. It's basically pounding damage, pounding heals, or ocassionally popping a CD as an 'oh sh@#!' button. If I can find the post I'll link it, but someone else did a good job explaining the monotony of TSW's combat. While it seems like there's a ton of variety, the majority of the skills are only slight variations of one another.
I also found it amusing that my DPS oriented spec which is supposedly 'gunna suck in PvP' ended up completely dominating. The only thing I had to change was swapping out a blood shield for a CC breaker. Most characters died too fast to do much of anything to me, and it was still basically (spam 1 for resources, hit 5 for drain / affliction, hit 3 for finishing burst, throw down 6 if i needed a snare or to proc a crit off affliction). Pretty damn simple, and there wasn't a whole lot anyone could do against it. There was the ocassional guy that would save a CC breaker for me, but I'd just make him waste it and do the same thing all over again. Very standard.
Comments
Minecraft comes to mind as a recent game where graphics aren't nearly the focus.
.. But in a good way.
Around the time UO released in 1997, it had decent graphics compared to other games of that time period. Especially games that did not require a 3DFX card.
It's all relative really. I remember playing games 10 years ago and thinking "wow, this game looks amazing!" but if I were to load up the same games now, I will probably be disappointed.
Either way, graphics is the wrong word to use when talking about games. It's not just about the number of the polygons, it's about the aesthetics.
TSW has great world aesthetics but their character aesthetics leave much to be desired. The fact that they've decided to go with the more realistic looking characters just makes poor models and animations stand out that much more.
agreed also this has been posted in many forums before but if you don't get the difference between graphics and aesthetics watch this
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/graphics-vs.-aesthetics
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
We're talking about video games, not board games. In this medium, visually stimulating the player is just an important as stimulating him with sounds, gameplay elements and story.
Let's not start throwing words like "imagination" and "community" around. Those are basically nonsense words that can be used to support any kind of fluffy pie-in-the-sky argument.
The real debate is this: does TSW provide a fun game to actually play, beyond the story (which I think is great and fresh) and the overall game world.
My answer from the hours of beta I played last night is mixed.
- On the one hand, I really enjoy the skill tree and 7/7 system and having to choose trade-offs with cooldowns or utility/CC to push damage versatility, I like using different sets of abilities for different situations.
Unlike some people here who think it takes a PhD in algorithmic computer science to work out the skill circles, I think the skill system is very simple, with combos that obviously work well, things like 1 ability creates a debuff that makes another ability resource-free or deal more damage.
Those are basic synergies and it doesn't take being a rocket scientist to work all that out in a couple of hours of staring at the wheel. It is really fun however to work out good builds, and to use correct builds for different situations and roles.
- On the other hand, I think the combat is utter garbage.
The game feels cheap to play, badly programmed with syrupy controls and horrid animations.
They need to either change the game engine or get new animators to reprogram everything about the combat because right now it is utterly unacceptable for a 2012 game. Simply put, they cannot release TSW in its current state, because it will flop hard.
I'll keep playing once the maintenance is over but so far, those are my impressions of the gameplay itself (not the story, questing system, atmosphere etc).
I get where you are coming from, but to me other MMOs has made me feel confined by too large of a rotation. Pressing 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 etc etc never equaled more fun or challenge to me. If anything it took away from the fun because instead of watching and enjoying the game, I was too busy staring at my cool downs and waiting for the next mole to pop up.
Your opinion is valid, but there is another opinion besides yours.
FYI, in this game you will not be pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
You will be pressing 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1 oh look a CD came up, 6,2,3,1,1,1,1,1..... etc
That is true for healers, tanks, and dps alike.
Very nice link. I haven't played much of TSW but the graphics just felt blocky and the animations forced. This is from someone that loves the look and feel of EQ, which much lower poly count and much blockier graphics.
This is what happens when you remove autoattack.
I can respect that. Blizzard, for instance, has often bemoaned that players are more "watching the UI" than "watching the game".
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Eh..
On my brand new char this weekend, an Elementalist/Pistols, it's this:
4, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 3, 1, 2
Mob should be dead..
1 is a 1s cast time builder
4 is a instant builder on a 5s cd that deals more damage if I have no resources
2 is a 2-cost 1s cast time st nuke
3 is a 5-cost channeled finisher using a separate resource
I have one other ability, currently, and it's a 3-cost 1.5s cast AoE.
But srsly, don't blame the removal of auto-attack. Rotations are of this nature with or without it.
.. But in a good way.
Aye, it has nothing to do w/ autoattack (or the lack thereof). The combat is built around skill rotations. There are barely any skills that are reactionary in nature. It's basically pounding damage, pounding heals, or ocassionally popping a CD as an 'oh sh@#!' button. If I can find the post I'll link it, but someone else did a good job explaining the monotony of TSW's combat. While it seems like there's a ton of variety, the majority of the skills are only slight variations of one another.
I also found it amusing that my DPS oriented spec which is supposedly 'gunna suck in PvP' ended up completely dominating. The only thing I had to change was swapping out a blood shield for a CC breaker. Most characters died too fast to do much of anything to me, and it was still basically (spam 1 for resources, hit 5 for drain / affliction, hit 3 for finishing burst, throw down 6 if i needed a snare or to proc a crit off affliction). Pretty damn simple, and there wasn't a whole lot anyone could do against it. There was the ocassional guy that would save a CC breaker for me, but I'd just make him waste it and do the same thing all over again. Very standard.