Sure after BWE 2 GW2 is just updated GW1 with Dumbed down TSW combat! Facts are the facts! Wish they had made the MMO they promised.
Your level of constant trolling is getting ridiculous. And they say its GW2 fans that are the only fanboys.....
Seriously play TSW...it has the same combat more advanced. GW2 after BW2 is a poor MMO very poor MMO. Don't blindly follow the masses.
I have done two BWE for both games and TSW is a way more advanced MMO in every way except PvP. If you have not played both games and judged them fairly who is the troll?
It really is getting to the point I'm going to have to ignore you Thor, you used to be a productive member of the community, and a respected OSG ..... but you're making us look bad. You are the polar opposite of a Fanboi ... every post contains something negative about Gw2. Reign it in a bit ...
Which is fine in this thread, as its a critque of Gw2.
Sure after BWE 2 GW2 is just updated GW1 with Dumbed down TSW combat! Facts are the facts! Wish they had made the MMO they promised.
Your level of constant trolling is getting ridiculous. And they say its GW2 fans that are the only fanboys.....
Seriously play TSW...it has the same combat more advanced. GW2 after BW2 is a poor MMO very poor MMO. Don't blindly follow the masses.
I have done two BWE for both games and TSW is a way more advanced MMO in every way except PvP. If you have not played both games and judged them fairly who is the troll?
Do you not get it through your head that not everyone shares your OPINION? That what you say is not FACT? Of course not, I forget fanboism blinds.
And yes, I have played both. Played GW2 betas and Im in the TSW CB.
Sure after BWE 2 GW2 is just updated GW1 with Dumbed down TSW combat! Facts are the facts! Wish they had made the MMO they promised.
Your level of constant trolling is getting ridiculous. And they say its GW2 fans that are the only fanboys.....
Seriously play TSW...it has the same combat more advanced. GW2 after BW2 is a poor MMO very poor MMO. Don't blindly follow the masses.
I have done two BWE for both games and TSW is a way more advanced MMO in every way except PvP. If you have not played both games and judged them fairly who is the troll?
I've played TSW. The pre-combat planning (skill decks and the wheel) is more involved, but combat itself tended to be "spam builder, fire off big hit" or "spam aoe until things stop being there". At no point did I feel challenged.
While TSW has an amazing sense of atmosphere and the "modern/horror" feel is nearly unique among MMOs, I felt combat to be very dull.
80 levels of DE's and hearts will get old, trust me.
60 levels of WoW quests did just fine for WoW. MMORPG's do not thrive on amazing storytelling or gameplay, that is what single player games are for. MMORPG's thrive on doing those 80 levels of DE's together, running events, crafting, exploring caves.
But you wouldn't know anything about that. You're just a raider, aren't you?
Originally posted by HeroEvermoreThe art style and animations just ruin the game for me.Short and simple. Just 1 noobs opinion
Art style is something that¨people can have different opinions of, but in general with the many prices that GW2 allready won to proove it, the majorrity of people adores the art style of GW2. But if you disagree, thats your opinion.The annimations are technically the most advanced of any MMO to date, because they still allow total freedom of movement while battling while still feeling very natural to me. Could you please explain what exactly you dont like about the annimations?
So far, he's been this threads only honest complainant. He doesn't like the art. He honestly admits that it's a personal preference. I know where he's coming from. No matter how many times I try to play WoW. No matter the race, I get there by Level 10. It's just too ugly, to me, to play. Others love it. I'm happy for them.
The rest of the complainants... I just laugh. Some of them would destroy the reachable market with unrealistic, computor crushing demands. Not every MMO player has a top-end system, and what they ask for would require a top-end, not elite, but still top-end system. The worst, IMO, are the ones hiding behind lazy, vague cliche' complaints while screaming for innovation without making specific complaints or pointing these 'obvious' innovations that should be in the game.
Im pretty sure my opinions on the matter were honest
So far. Which was to a post on page 1. And I don't consider a complaint that is based on personal opinion presented as 'fact' to be honest. You may not like the PvE combat system. It's a personal opinion. Saying it's 'trash' as if that were an unassailable fact instead of personal opinion is dishonest as you assign a false-certainty to your feelings about the matter.
De gustibus non est disputandum. In taste there is no dispute. Yet, in taste, there is also no honesty or truth. It is purely subjective. What is a masterpiece for one man is another's disaster. How Picasso got money for all those paintings is beyond me... I hate them all...
I do not assert Picasso was a hack and spam Picasso forums about how much he sucked and he'd have been good if he were Van Gogh. I recognize his paintings were not for me. I recognize many people believe him to be a great artist. I do not trash his works on matters of personal taste.
And yet I read the complaints. And, for the most part, they are not technical, measurable complaints. They are complaints of taste disguised as 'unassailable fact' which is then used to blugeon, mock and put-down others who disagree based on their taste in games without even the slightest self-awareness on the behalf of the complaintant.
Top notch post, and pretty much sums up everything i've read too. Big +1 to MosesZD.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
I dont see it keeping my intrest longer than a month because, I dont see anything to strive for. I am an old school MMO player I want super rare items, I dont want everything given out with minimal effort. Its not so much that I have to have the items, but the effort in trying to get them is what keeps me going. The problem with most mmo's these days is you reach the top of the mountian WAY TO FAST. When you get to the top theres nothing left to do but run around in your shinnies. There always needs to be something to strive for, to keep you going. This isnt just a gw2 problem this is a problem in all modern MMO's.
This sir, is one of the most understanding responses Ive seen in this thread.
Great response. Thanks for the input. I won't ask you to provide a game that does this because I can name dozens off the top of my head that have large gear progression lines. First off, I'll ask are you sure that GW2 doesn't have what you seek? There are legendary items to strive for in both PvE and PvP. I'll also inquire are you actually having fun grinding gear? Your response would have me assume so. In which case what is it about the current system in GW2 that does not fulfill your expectations?
So far, the gear seems just as plentiful as in other MMO's. Your reliance on gear is less than other MMO's due to the combat system (dodging, utility skills, etc.) but the presence of gear does not seem to be diminished by this. To me it feels as though my reliance on gear is less but gear is still equally as important. I do not necessarily need the best gear to perform well but I still want it all the same.
With each dungeon giving specific gear sets alongside PvP gear-sets and other special gear scattered through the world I doubt there will be any shortage of gear hunting at max-level. Of course its all speculation right now, but I don't see any reason to believe otherwise based off of what I've played.
It does, in fact, seem to always give you something to strive for in the progression department. That being said GW2 was designed around the idea that it wasn't going to use tricks such as gear treadmills to keep people playing. You should be having fun first and foremost. I would encourage you to try it for yourself.
80 levels of DE's and hearts will get old, trust me.
60 levels of WoW quests did just fine for WoW. MMORPG's do not thrive on amazing storytelling or gameplay, that is what single player games are for. MMORPG's thrive on doing those 80 levels of DE's together, running events, crafting, exploring caves.
But you wouldn't know anything about that. You're just a raider, aren't you?
Here come the personal attacks. You don't know me son so relax.
Wow, surprisingly the more complaints I read in this thread the more entice I am to play Guild Wars 2.
Appearently Anet succeded in what they had planned in the first place. that is an MMO that is so different that those who are set in their old ways would scoff at the ideas put forward but attract those looking for something new.
Then suddenly several people who take any criticism towards this computer game personally came in and started to insult the people who expressed their opinions or to argue with them trying to prove them wrong. You cannot argue with someone's opinion. It is like trying to persuade a person who loves blue color that red is actually the best one.
We can't provide counter-arguments to what people say now? Even when we get posts like Thorbrand's?
[mod edit] I have 100s of hours on both games and a very strict critic for MMOs to come back good luck. I do believe MMOs should not be action adventures that have no MMO features. I want a true MMO by definition!
Wow, surprisingly the more complaints I read in this thread the more entice I am to play Guild Wars 2.
Appearently Anet succeded in what they had planned in the first place. that is an MMO that is so different that those who are set in their old ways would scoff at the ideas put forward but attract those looking for something new.
Yes, it's so obvious that if one finds something they don't like about the game they clearly are too stuck in the "old ways" to understand the awesomeness of GW2 *cough /sarcasm cough*
Sure after BWE 2 GW2 is just updated GW1 with Dumbed down TSW combat! Facts are the facts! Wish they had made the MMO they promised.
Your level of constant trolling is getting ridiculous. And they say its GW2 fans that are the only fanboys.....
Seriously play TSW...it has the same combat more advanced. GW2 after BW2 is a poor MMO very poor MMO. Don't blindly follow the masses.
I have done two BWE for both games and TSW is a way more advanced MMO in every way except PvP. If you have not played both games and judged them fairly who is the troll?
Do you not get it through your head that not everyone shares your OPINION? That what you say is not FACT? Of course not, I forget fanboism blinds.
And yes, I have played both. Played GW2 betas and Im in the TSW CB.
I'm not really looking for unashamed game plugging or frothing at the mouth.
I will try to piece together a civil reply that fulfills the thread outline.
-- "I didn't like the combat in GW2 because ... and I was hoping it would be more ... like TSW"
I placed "..." In all the areas where this response failed to provide specific examples.
Due to the response being too empty I can't really reply with any coherence. There's nothing here for anyone to reply to factually. There were no facts presented. If you want to contribute to the discussion please re-read what the thread calls for and repost.
Wow, surprisingly the more complaints I read in this thread the more entice I am to play Guild Wars 2.
Appearently Anet succeded in what they had planned in the first place. that is an MMO that is so different that those who are set in their old ways would scoff at the ideas put forward but attract those looking for something new.
Yes, it's so obvious that if one finds something they don't like about the game they clearly are too stuck in the "old ways" to understand the awesomeness of GW2 *cough /sarcasm cough*
Thanks guys but neither of these posts actually have to do with the topic at hand. Not trying to be off-putting, just trying to keep the topic on track as they are getting pretty wobbly.
I think GW2 is the best themepark mmorpg I have played. That being said there are some things I don't like.
1. The combat. It isn't much different than standard tab target WoW. Dodging is a nice feature, but at it's core it is still just tab target hotkey cooldown crap, which isn't a very exciting system. I would prefer something like AoC or TERA, OR a more MMOFPS style. I just find it boring along with mmorpg's in general.
2. Kill and Gather. That is what most events have you do, just like your standard kill 10 wolf quests in other mmorpgs. It is much better disguised. Some of the events actually deviate from this which is cool, but most are just kill/gather. More puzzles would make the game better.
3. Fast Travel. It really kills the idea of a massive world.
4. Exploration. It is cool that the game rewards exploration, but the map makes it too easy. I would prefer no map at all and a lot more maze like settings where you could actually get lost. I realize that gamers nowadays may find that annoying, but I'd but up for that kind of challenge.
5 Open World PVP: With open world pvp being limited to the PVP maps it may get stagnant. I thought the WvWvW was fun but I could see it getting old. I'd prefer being able to run into people in the open world and kill them. I also think an FFA system would be a lot more fun that server v. server. Then we would get Guilds actually fighting wars and would see politics in action. In the current WvWvW you can't even see the names of enemies which kills any sense of rivalry.
6. No real death penalty. While I do like the fact that GW2 will actually kill off characters occasionally, unlike other mmorpgs. However, without a death penalty it is all kind of meaningless.
7. Economy. I don't foresee a real economy in this game. Only a few mmorpgs actually have real economies, while the vast majority have a gold sinking system. The only way you get a real economy is when equipment degrades and eventually is destroyed OR in a player looting system. When players keep there gear forever there is no demand.
8. Personal Story. It was lame in SWTOR and it's lame in GW2. Luckily for GW2 it is only a small part of the game unlike poor failed SWTOR.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
People like to complain and find fault. Other people like to get all hyped up and defend the game they like to the death. Welcome to the world of MMO gaming forums.
I am fairly excited for the game, but am trying to keep the hype down. The more you build something up in your mind, the less fun it will be. I will play it and enjoy it for what it is. When I get bored, I will move on.
Even if it only holds my attention for a couple months, I still got more out of it than any other MMO I have ever purchased for the cost (simply because of no sub fee). Well besides, EQ, WAR, DAoC and FFXIV, got a lot of game time with those (a lot for free too).
All of the trash talking and hyping up happens with every MMO launch. People don't remember the SWTOR days of everyone talking about how next gen and amazing the game is? I was on the other side of the coin, making fun of how bored I was with it even after only getting to level 15ish. And now look at it ...
I still bought the game and played it because friends were, but I grew bored and "finished" with it in about 1 months time. We'll see how GW2 goes, but so far, it feels like the most polished MMO I have ever played, besides RIFT. It is just a game, and I hope I can enjoy it for some time. If not ... there are a million more coming out that I can try as well.
To each their own, no sense in trying to convince the ignorant or flame the fanboys. Just move along. If people hate the game so much, why are they on here every day posting about it? Why don't you post in a community of something you do enjoy, instead of trashing on something you don't like?
The things I don't like about the game ... but still plan on playing it:
-Teleporting around makes the world feel less massive and you lose immersion
-So much zoning makes me lose immersion
-I would like a slower leveling progression
-Would like not only more instanced PvP maps and modes, but also a tiered mode or boosted mode to use your actual character and your progression in the game
-More skills sets, or ways to possibly change out skills that are not simply linked to the weapons you are using ... I have a feeling it will get boring using the same 5 skills once you get spec'd down a certain weapon path.
-Ability to have different trait builds and gear, that you can swap to when you want. This would provide more dynamics and difference in play for a single player ... instead of having to pay a hefty respec cost just to try something new on a character.
-Hopefully WvWvW is balanced, the beta felt mostly imbalaned even after they changed the match ups. I am pretty sure I could write a better matchmaking algorithm than what they have currently. The biggest issue is population, currently. And most likely will always be the problem.
-Don't like all the competitive focus of the game, I want to play more in a world. I want PvP and things to actually matter and effect things. Not just give me some new costume to wear. The progression is kind of lacking at least from what I have heard. We'll see how it pans out.
Here come the personal attacks. You don't know me son so relax.
Calling someone a raider is a personal attack?
There's a very clear divide between themepark players.
There are raiders, and then there are people who play in the world during the leveling experience. When a person starts talking about how a certain questing experience will get boring, it's quite obvious they're not a fan of playing in the world, because those of us who are had to deal with sub-part questing experience for some time now, it doesn't drive us away from MMORPG's. Then the question is: what do they play MMO's for? There are two options, either they're a sandboxer, or a raider.
If you took a poll on all the critics of GW2, you'd see that they're all either raiders or sandboxers. Otherwise, the complaints make no freaking sense (seriously, I have not seen a single person say WoW is better).
Only a raider believes endgame = game. Only a raider talks about how you'll get bored in 2 months. Only a raider discounts all of the game except endgame. These complaints make no sense outside of raider mentality.
I think GW2 is the best themepark mmorpg I have played. That being said there are some things I don't like.
1. The combat. It isn't much different than standard tab target WoW. Dodging is a nice feature, but at it's core it is still just tab target hotkey cooldown crap, which isn't a very exciting system. I would prefer something like AoC or TERA, OR a more MMOFPS style. I just find it boring along with mmorpg's in general.
It is really not tab-target really. You have over simplified. You have to continue moving in GW2 or you are pummeled to death.
2. Kill and Gather. That is what most events have you do, just like your standard kill 10 wolf quests in other mmorpgs. It is much better disguised. Some of the events actually deviate from this which is cool, but most are just kill/gather. More puzzles would make the game better.
It is more than that too.
3. Fast Travel. It really kills the idea of a massive world.
If you don't want to run everywhere and you need to get to the other side of the map - how do you do it - a mount? please - even rift has portals along with mounts.
4. Exploration. It is cool that the game rewards exploration, but the map makes it too easy. I would prefer no map at all and a lot more maze like settings where you could actually get lost. I realize that gamers nowadays may find that annoying, but I'd but up for that kind of challenge.
The map is a a hold over from GW1 and I appreciate it. It makes it easier to get around. Now in TSW, the map is useless as it doesn't show if the target is above or below - GW1 and GW2 do.
5 Open World PVP: With open world pvp being limited to the PVP maps it may get stagnant. I thought the WvWvW was fun but I could see it getting old. I'd prefer being able to run into people in the open world and kill them. I also think an FFA system would be a lot more fun that server v. server. Then we would get Guilds actually fighting wars and would see politics in action. In the current WvWvW you can't even see the names of enemies which kills any sense of rivalry.
Open world PvP - Ganker's dream. You can't really have balanced PvE and open world PvP in the same game - one or the other.
6. No real death penalty. While I do like the fact that GW2 will actually kill off characters occasionally, unlike other mmorpgs. However, without a death penalty it is all kind of meaningless.
The death penalty is there - your armor eventually disintegrated and you have nothing. It makes you watch what you are doing. The GW1 DP was too much - 15% each death (losing HP and MP) - by the time 60% DP is reached you can't do anything.
7. Economy. I don't foresee a real economy in this game. Only a few mmorpgs actually have real economies, while the vast majority have a gold sinking system. The only way you get a real economy is when equipment degrades and eventually is destroyed OR in a player looting system. When players keep there gear forever there is no demand.
Never played GW1 - so you can't see what the economy is like. It will be similar to GW1 basically. You want gear grinding - no thank you. In this game it is about looks - all armor of the same lvl have similar traits but the look is different. Makes it more interesting that you can have characters looking way different from each other.
8. Personal Story. It was lame in SWTOR and it's lame in GW2. Luckily for GW2 it is only a small part of the game unlike poor failed SWTOR.
Don't know enough to really say about GW2 - but I agree about TOR.
Themepark design at its highest level. PVP is over here. PVE is over here.. Quests are over here. Etc
No PVE or PVP Progression system. As much as people hate it, it keeps games worth playing for more than a week.
Absolutely horrid combat system. This is not true action. This is running around in a circle, while your auto attack / abilities automatically target and hone in on your enemy.
Zergfest. DE's and even Meta DEs are just giant zerg fests. Strategy is a fun portion of MMOs, and this removes it altogether. Other players might as well be mercenary NPCs.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The worst probably being the combat.
This thread is really interesting. In general there are four groups of complaints:
1. I could not log in on BW, I had too much lag, etc.
This is easy: it's beta.
2. Dynamic events are same old boring stuff, combat is lame, personal story is stupid, etc.
This is kind of weird, because normaly MMOs are being criticized for not delivering what was promised. GW2 stands out as an MMO that exactly looks like delivering what has been promised by ArenaNet: New ideas to make typical MMO-content more fun. DEs can get boring and are repetetive, but they are much more fun in so many ways than traditional quests. The combat is very action-oriented and much better than in games like WoW, SWTOR or TSW. And even in TERA (which obviously has the best combat at the moment) you click on abilities. The personal story is like a long single-player-mission included into the overall game. It is not as good as, let's say 'Batman Arkham City', but it is good enough to entertain players, who like to play such content from time to time. BGs will be without waiting-cues and a silly honor-system. WvWvW is exactly what we have been waiting for since DAOC.
3. I want a sandbox MMO with hardcore-gear-grind-raiding-stuff as end-game and housing
Ok, GW2 will be the exact opposite of that. But tell me one thing, which MMO has really fulfilled all your demands and was successful at the same time? Grinding for gear is a traditional MMO idea, but GW1 already was very successful without it. For some players better gear is the main motiviation to do the same content again and again and again. However, it creates a lot of problems. And many players do not like the gear grind at all. For these players it is quiet normal to play a game whenever they want to, although they get no reward apart from having fun. Actually almost all games work exactly this way: Ludo, Chess, Basketball, Hangman, Counter Strike, etc. Somehow millions of people play these games every day although they never get some epic drops.
4. It is a themepark fantasy MMO - I don't like this
Ok, TSW looks definitely more exciting at first sight, but yes, GW2 is a fantasy MMO. I mean, nobody would go to the Mercedes store to make a test-drive and then say something like: "It is a good car, but I don't like it, because it's a Mercedes."
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
For me it is the combat system. I played the game during both weekend events and I thought both times that it felt sluggish and not as responsive as I would like. I felt a noticeable delay from the time I pressed a button to when my character actually performed an action. I'm sure some of that will be resolved (hopefully) by the time it releases, but it definitely left me disappointed.
I also don't like how zergy everything feels. You basically just run around and go from one big group of players killing stuff to another. There is often so much going on around you that it doesn't really matter what you personally contribute. The big events feel just like public quests from WAR and I don't really see that big of a distinction with the way it is done in GW2. It seems pretty much the same to me...
I also really don't like the way the cutscenes are done. After playing SWTOR, the way it is done in GW2 just seems cheap and second-rate.
Themepark design at its highest level. PVP is over here. PVE is over here.. Quests are over here. Etc
No PVE or PVP Progression system. As much as people hate it, it keeps games worth playing for more than a week.
Absolutely horrid combat system. This is not true action. This is running around in a circle, while your auto attack / abilities automatically target and hone in on your enemy.
Zergfest. DE's and even Meta DEs are just giant zerg fests. Strategy is a fun portion of MMOs, and this removes it altogether. Other players might as well be mercenary NPCs.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The worst probably being the combat.
So with combat what do you want? FPS no skills? Just load up a few things and go? Non-stop moving combat? It's known it's not full action combat, but what is wanted here? this is my biggest thing I don't understand.
with the zergs part, have you tried getting away from them? I was running DE's with just a buddy out in human level 15 zone and it was a blast, we really had to coordinate with eachother on those last few bits.
WvW same thing with zergs, just get AWAY from the zergs. Him and I, Ele/Mesmer. were able to keep speed up 90% of the time, so we would hit and run on people as they were coming out of their main base, and when a large group came we would get away.
there is so much more than zerging in GW2 but you have to allow yourself to LEAVE the zerg. Of course the zerg is easiest to do, but it's also the lamest.
I'm not trying to say "You're wrong!" and make a flame post or anything like that. But really when people say GW2 is just a zerg fest I just want to ask, "What did you do?".
It's beta, you have 200k people playing, and WELL over half of them are making new toons, so the starter area's WILL be flooded. Same with WvW, people don't know what to do and it's easiest to join the masses. I don't blame them, but when they say that's all GW2 has potential for, I want to say "Next BWE find me and I will show you what real WvW is all about". Because coming from DAoC I know the multitude of potential it has for small man groups.
Honestly, a good 3-4 groups of 2-3, could KILL a zerg when it comes to offense/defense of a keep/tower. Cut their supplies, kill their Dolyaks for half an hour and that defense is OUT of supplies. The potential is there, but you have to see past the zerg to get to it. This game IS siege oriented, and soem people don't like that, but it's also focused on the priorities. Supply is the biggest priority in GW2 WvW, take that from your enemy and they will not be having a good time.
when you do this, they will start to "inspect" what is going on, solo's will try to scout it out and that's when you pounce and you pounce hard! Take them down with everything you've got, and when they drop, get out of there. Move to next Dolyak, and when it drops, expect 1-2 people, take them out, you're expecting a fight sooner or later, so prepare your toon with the proper skills to throw out dps.
Sorry i kind of got on a rant I had a blast in WvW even though my server got DOMINATED. I racked up a good 20 kills in 30 minutes with our duo we had going.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
For me it is the combat system. I played the game during both weekend events and I thought both times that it felt sluggish and not as responsive as I would like. I felt a noticeable delay from the time I pressed a button to when my character actually performed an action. I'm sure some of that will be resolved (hopefully) by the time it releases, but it definitely left me disappointed.
I also don't like how zergy everything feels. You basically just run around and go from one big group of players killing stuff to another. There is often so much going on around you that it doesn't really matter what you personally contribute. The big events feel just like public quests from WAR and I don't really see that big of a distinction with the way it is done in GW2. It seems pretty much the same to me...
I also really don't like the way the cutscenes are done. After playing SWTOR, the way it is done in GW2 just seems cheap and second-rate.
I suspect the combat latency was a performance issue. Hopefully to be corrected. I saw it once or twice myself, but not often.
As to DEs, keep in mind that changed drastically as you leave the starter areas. Though I think perhaps Anet needs to have a few of teh less zerg-friendly DEs in the newbie areas to alleviate this opinion. The big difference between WAR PQs and DEs is that DEs have a more lasting effect (to an extent, it's not permanent). Winning a DE could open up a whole new camp of NPCs with vendors and respawn points; failing one could demolish a vital bridge or village. In addition, even failing a DE often spawns new events, and passing or failing impacts what event spawns.
Themepark design at its highest level. PVP is over here. PVE is over here.. Quests are over here. Etc
No PVE or PVP Progression system. As much as people hate it, it keeps games worth playing for more than a week.
Absolutely horrid combat system. This is not true action. This is running around in a circle, while your auto attack / abilities automatically target and hone in on your enemy.
Zergfest. DE's and even Meta DEs are just giant zerg fests. Strategy is a fun portion of MMOs, and this removes it altogether. Other players might as well be mercenary NPCs.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The worst probably being the combat.
So with combat what do you want? FPS no skills? Just load up a few things and go? Non-stop moving combat? It's known it's not full action combat, but what is wanted here? this is my biggest thing I don't understand.
with the zergs part, have you tried getting away from them? I was running DE's with just a buddy out in human level 15 zone and it was a blast, we really had to coordinate with eachother on those last few bits.
WvW same thing with zergs, just get AWAY from the zergs. Him and I, Ele/Mesmer. were able to keep speed up 90% of the time, so we would hit and run on people as they were coming out of their main base, and when a large group came we would get away.
there is so much more than zerging in GW2 but you have to allow yourself to LEAVE the zerg. Of course the zerg is easiest to do, but it's also the lamest.
I'm not trying to say "You're wrong!" and make a flame post or anything like that. But really when people say GW2 is just a zerg fest I just want to ask, "What did you do?".
It's beta, you have 200k people playing, and WELL over half of them are making new toons, so the starter area's WILL be flooded. Same with WvW, people don't know what to do and it's easiest to join the masses. I don't blame them, but when they say that's all GW2 has potential for, I want to say "Next BWE find me and I will show you what real WvW is all about". Because coming from DAoC I know the multitude of potential it has for small man groups.
Honestly, a good 3-4 groups of 2-3, could KILL a zerg when it comes to offense/defense of a keep/tower. Cut their supplies, kill their Dolyaks for half an hour and that defense is OUT of supplies. The potential is there, but you have to see past the zerg to get to it. This game IS siege oriented, and soem people don't like that, but it's also focused on the priorities. Supply is the biggest priority in GW2 WvW, take that from your enemy and they will not be having a good time.
when you do this, they will start to "inspect" what is going on, solo's will try to scout it out and that's when you pounce and you pounce hard! Take them down with everything you've got, and when they drop, get out of there. Move to next Dolyak, and when it drops, expect 1-2 people, take them out, you're expecting a fight sooner or later, so prepare your toon with the proper skills to throw out dps.
Sorry i kind of got on a rant I had a blast in WvW even though my server got DOMINATED. I racked up a good 20 kills in 30 minutes with our duo we had going.
I appreciate your anecdotal evidence to support the falsification of my opinion. Good job.
What kind of combat do we want? Play TERA for 5 minutes and you'll see what good combat can be in an MMORPG. Strategic movement rather than chicken with head cut off.
Furthermore, I said DE and Meta DE are zerg fests, I didn't say anything about PVP. GW2 will probably be a fairly decent PVP game minus the combat.
What kind of combat do we want? Play TERA for 5 minutes and you'll see what good combat can be in an MMORPG. Strategic movement rather than chicken with head cut off.
Speak for yourself, TERA combat is not what "we" want. It is what you want. The locked in place, button spamming is not good. That is where TERA lacks most. TERA is "chicken with legs cut off" combat. The fluidity in GW2 is so much better. Most Asian MMO's suffer from this "lock your character in place during almost every action" syndrome for some reason. It gets old and frustrating quickly. TERA, FInal Fantasy, AION, not sure if they will ever get it right. Especially in a more aciton oriented game ... it is a game breaker.
However, the worst part about TERA is seeing all the stupid ass bunny people running around in thongs. Asians need to gravitate away from their obsession with having sex with small mammal women and grow up. We haver seen enough rabbit/cat/mouse women in skimpy clothes for a lifetime ... thanks.
OK, There are 3 MMOs of the "new generation" coming out that everyone is bantering about. Allow me to make some commentary about each. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses vis a vis combat. Keep in mind these are my own personal opinions, sprinkled with some commentary both for and against each game gleaned from observing the forums.
GW2
Pros
-Exceptionally challenging
-Tends to discourage "1 2 3" optimal rotations in favor of the player deciding the best tiome to use each ability.
-Loves force multipliers (buffs and debuffs) as much or more than straight stat stacking
-Fairly flexible, with hundreds of skillcombinations.
-Heavy focus on situational awareness
-what weapon you equip changes gameplay drastically.
Cons
-Hard as heck (this is a problem to some, I'll be honest)
-Tab target locking seen by many as EZ mode (I disagree, but that's a YMMV)
-Combat can sometimes be a little zerg-y
-Sometimes locked in place for animations
Tera
Pros:
-Some focus on situational awareness (less than GW2 in my opinion)
-Near total lack of tab target/target lock
-Fast paced
-somewhat challenging
Cons
-Tends to fall into a "1 2 3" DPS spam rotation quite easily
-BAMs seem less challenging than expected; they basically are just a "dodge until you wear this stupidly-high HP mob down"
-Tends to feel a little grindy
-Less flexible in terms of skill sets/tactics.
-Each class has only a few weapon styles they can equip
-locked in place for nearly all animations.
TSW
Pros;
-Of the three, best in terms of out-of-combar tactical options (skill deck)
-Friendliest to those used to traditional MMO combat
-what weapon you equip changes gameplay drastically
Cons
-Kinda does the "1 2 3" thing, but nowhere near as bad as Tera.
-Attacks feel weak; animation/effects lack any sense of "oomph"
-Less need to think about positioning than the other two.
Comments
It really is getting to the point I'm going to have to ignore you Thor, you used to be a productive member of the community, and a respected OSG ..... but you're making us look bad. You are the polar opposite of a Fanboi ... every post contains something negative about Gw2. Reign it in a bit ...
Which is fine in this thread, as its a critque of Gw2.
Do you not get it through your head that not everyone shares your OPINION? That what you say is not FACT? Of course not, I forget fanboism blinds.
And yes, I have played both. Played GW2 betas and Im in the TSW CB.
I've played TSW. The pre-combat planning (skill decks and the wheel) is more involved, but combat itself tended to be "spam builder, fire off big hit" or "spam aoe until things stop being there". At no point did I feel challenged.
While TSW has an amazing sense of atmosphere and the "modern/horror" feel is nearly unique among MMOs, I felt combat to be very dull.
60 levels of WoW quests did just fine for WoW. MMORPG's do not thrive on amazing storytelling or gameplay, that is what single player games are for. MMORPG's thrive on doing those 80 levels of DE's together, running events, crafting, exploring caves.
But you wouldn't know anything about that. You're just a raider, aren't you?
Top notch post, and pretty much sums up everything i've read too. Big +1 to MosesZD.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Great response. Thanks for the input. I won't ask you to provide a game that does this because I can name dozens off the top of my head that have large gear progression lines. First off, I'll ask are you sure that GW2 doesn't have what you seek? There are legendary items to strive for in both PvE and PvP. I'll also inquire are you actually having fun grinding gear? Your response would have me assume so. In which case what is it about the current system in GW2 that does not fulfill your expectations?
So far, the gear seems just as plentiful as in other MMO's. Your reliance on gear is less than other MMO's due to the combat system (dodging, utility skills, etc.) but the presence of gear does not seem to be diminished by this. To me it feels as though my reliance on gear is less but gear is still equally as important. I do not necessarily need the best gear to perform well but I still want it all the same.
With each dungeon giving specific gear sets alongside PvP gear-sets and other special gear scattered through the world I doubt there will be any shortage of gear hunting at max-level. Of course its all speculation right now, but I don't see any reason to believe otherwise based off of what I've played.
It does, in fact, seem to always give you something to strive for in the progression department. That being said GW2 was designed around the idea that it wasn't going to use tricks such as gear treadmills to keep people playing. You should be having fun first and foremost. I would encourage you to try it for yourself.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Here come the personal attacks. You don't know me son so relax.
Wow, surprisingly the more complaints I read in this thread the more entice I am to play Guild Wars 2.
Appearently Anet succeded in what they had planned in the first place. that is an MMO that is so different that those who are set in their old ways would scoff at the ideas put forward but attract those looking for something new.
[mod edit] I have 100s of hours on both games and a very strict critic for MMOs to come back good luck. I do believe MMOs should not be action adventures that have no MMO features. I want a true MMO by definition!
Yes, it's so obvious that if one finds something they don't like about the game they clearly are too stuck in the "old ways" to understand the awesomeness of GW2 *cough /sarcasm cough*
I'm not really looking for unashamed game plugging or frothing at the mouth.
I will try to piece together a civil reply that fulfills the thread outline.
-- "I didn't like the combat in GW2 because ... and I was hoping it would be more ... like TSW"
I placed "..." In all the areas where this response failed to provide specific examples.
Due to the response being too empty I can't really reply with any coherence. There's nothing here for anyone to reply to factually. There were no facts presented. If you want to contribute to the discussion please re-read what the thread calls for and repost.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Thanks guys but neither of these posts actually have to do with the topic at hand. Not trying to be off-putting, just trying to keep the topic on track as they are getting pretty wobbly.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
I think GW2 is the best themepark mmorpg I have played. That being said there are some things I don't like.
1. The combat. It isn't much different than standard tab target WoW. Dodging is a nice feature, but at it's core it is still just tab target hotkey cooldown crap, which isn't a very exciting system. I would prefer something like AoC or TERA, OR a more MMOFPS style. I just find it boring along with mmorpg's in general.
2. Kill and Gather. That is what most events have you do, just like your standard kill 10 wolf quests in other mmorpgs. It is much better disguised. Some of the events actually deviate from this which is cool, but most are just kill/gather. More puzzles would make the game better.
3. Fast Travel. It really kills the idea of a massive world.
4. Exploration. It is cool that the game rewards exploration, but the map makes it too easy. I would prefer no map at all and a lot more maze like settings where you could actually get lost. I realize that gamers nowadays may find that annoying, but I'd but up for that kind of challenge.
5 Open World PVP: With open world pvp being limited to the PVP maps it may get stagnant. I thought the WvWvW was fun but I could see it getting old. I'd prefer being able to run into people in the open world and kill them. I also think an FFA system would be a lot more fun that server v. server. Then we would get Guilds actually fighting wars and would see politics in action. In the current WvWvW you can't even see the names of enemies which kills any sense of rivalry.
6. No real death penalty. While I do like the fact that GW2 will actually kill off characters occasionally, unlike other mmorpgs. However, without a death penalty it is all kind of meaningless.
7. Economy. I don't foresee a real economy in this game. Only a few mmorpgs actually have real economies, while the vast majority have a gold sinking system. The only way you get a real economy is when equipment degrades and eventually is destroyed OR in a player looting system. When players keep there gear forever there is no demand.
8. Personal Story. It was lame in SWTOR and it's lame in GW2. Luckily for GW2 it is only a small part of the game unlike poor failed SWTOR.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
People like to complain and find fault. Other people like to get all hyped up and defend the game they like to the death. Welcome to the world of MMO gaming forums.
I am fairly excited for the game, but am trying to keep the hype down. The more you build something up in your mind, the less fun it will be. I will play it and enjoy it for what it is. When I get bored, I will move on.
Even if it only holds my attention for a couple months, I still got more out of it than any other MMO I have ever purchased for the cost (simply because of no sub fee). Well besides, EQ, WAR, DAoC and FFXIV, got a lot of game time with those (a lot for free too).
All of the trash talking and hyping up happens with every MMO launch. People don't remember the SWTOR days of everyone talking about how next gen and amazing the game is? I was on the other side of the coin, making fun of how bored I was with it even after only getting to level 15ish. And now look at it ...
I still bought the game and played it because friends were, but I grew bored and "finished" with it in about 1 months time. We'll see how GW2 goes, but so far, it feels like the most polished MMO I have ever played, besides RIFT. It is just a game, and I hope I can enjoy it for some time. If not ... there are a million more coming out that I can try as well.
To each their own, no sense in trying to convince the ignorant or flame the fanboys. Just move along. If people hate the game so much, why are they on here every day posting about it? Why don't you post in a community of something you do enjoy, instead of trashing on something you don't like?
The things I don't like about the game ... but still plan on playing it:
-Teleporting around makes the world feel less massive and you lose immersion
-So much zoning makes me lose immersion
-I would like a slower leveling progression
-Would like not only more instanced PvP maps and modes, but also a tiered mode or boosted mode to use your actual character and your progression in the game
-More skills sets, or ways to possibly change out skills that are not simply linked to the weapons you are using ... I have a feeling it will get boring using the same 5 skills once you get spec'd down a certain weapon path.
-Ability to have different trait builds and gear, that you can swap to when you want. This would provide more dynamics and difference in play for a single player ... instead of having to pay a hefty respec cost just to try something new on a character.
-Hopefully WvWvW is balanced, the beta felt mostly imbalaned even after they changed the match ups. I am pretty sure I could write a better matchmaking algorithm than what they have currently. The biggest issue is population, currently. And most likely will always be the problem.
-Don't like all the competitive focus of the game, I want to play more in a world. I want PvP and things to actually matter and effect things. Not just give me some new costume to wear. The progression is kind of lacking at least from what I have heard. We'll see how it pans out.
Calling someone a raider is a personal attack?
There's a very clear divide between themepark players.
There are raiders, and then there are people who play in the world during the leveling experience. When a person starts talking about how a certain questing experience will get boring, it's quite obvious they're not a fan of playing in the world, because those of us who are had to deal with sub-part questing experience for some time now, it doesn't drive us away from MMORPG's. Then the question is: what do they play MMO's for? There are two options, either they're a sandboxer, or a raider.
If you took a poll on all the critics of GW2, you'd see that they're all either raiders or sandboxers. Otherwise, the complaints make no freaking sense (seriously, I have not seen a single person say WoW is better).
Only a raider believes endgame = game. Only a raider talks about how you'll get bored in 2 months. Only a raider discounts all of the game except endgame. These complaints make no sense outside of raider mentality.
Why I don't like GW2:
Themepark design at its highest level. PVP is over here. PVE is over here.. Quests are over here. Etc
No PVE or PVP Progression system. As much as people hate it, it keeps games worth playing for more than a week.
Absolutely horrid combat system. This is not true action. This is running around in a circle, while your auto attack / abilities automatically target and hone in on your enemy.
Zergfest. DE's and even Meta DEs are just giant zerg fests. Strategy is a fun portion of MMOs, and this removes it altogether. Other players might as well be mercenary NPCs.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The worst probably being the combat.
This thread is really interesting. In general there are four groups of complaints:
1. I could not log in on BW, I had too much lag, etc.
This is easy: it's beta.
2. Dynamic events are same old boring stuff, combat is lame, personal story is stupid, etc.
This is kind of weird, because normaly MMOs are being criticized for not delivering what was promised. GW2 stands out as an MMO that exactly looks like delivering what has been promised by ArenaNet: New ideas to make typical MMO-content more fun. DEs can get boring and are repetetive, but they are much more fun in so many ways than traditional quests. The combat is very action-oriented and much better than in games like WoW, SWTOR or TSW. And even in TERA (which obviously has the best combat at the moment) you click on abilities. The personal story is like a long single-player-mission included into the overall game. It is not as good as, let's say 'Batman Arkham City', but it is good enough to entertain players, who like to play such content from time to time. BGs will be without waiting-cues and a silly honor-system. WvWvW is exactly what we have been waiting for since DAOC.
3. I want a sandbox MMO with hardcore-gear-grind-raiding-stuff as end-game and housing
Ok, GW2 will be the exact opposite of that. But tell me one thing, which MMO has really fulfilled all your demands and was successful at the same time? Grinding for gear is a traditional MMO idea, but GW1 already was very successful without it. For some players better gear is the main motiviation to do the same content again and again and again. However, it creates a lot of problems. And many players do not like the gear grind at all. For these players it is quiet normal to play a game whenever they want to, although they get no reward apart from having fun. Actually almost all games work exactly this way: Ludo, Chess, Basketball, Hangman, Counter Strike, etc. Somehow millions of people play these games every day although they never get some epic drops.
4. It is a themepark fantasy MMO - I don't like this
Ok, TSW looks definitely more exciting at first sight, but yes, GW2 is a fantasy MMO. I mean, nobody would go to the Mercedes store to make a test-drive and then say something like: "It is a good car, but I don't like it, because it's a Mercedes."
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
For me it is the combat system. I played the game during both weekend events and I thought both times that it felt sluggish and not as responsive as I would like. I felt a noticeable delay from the time I pressed a button to when my character actually performed an action. I'm sure some of that will be resolved (hopefully) by the time it releases, but it definitely left me disappointed.
I also don't like how zergy everything feels. You basically just run around and go from one big group of players killing stuff to another. There is often so much going on around you that it doesn't really matter what you personally contribute. The big events feel just like public quests from WAR and I don't really see that big of a distinction with the way it is done in GW2. It seems pretty much the same to me...
I also really don't like the way the cutscenes are done. After playing SWTOR, the way it is done in GW2 just seems cheap and second-rate.
So with combat what do you want? FPS no skills? Just load up a few things and go? Non-stop moving combat? It's known it's not full action combat, but what is wanted here? this is my biggest thing I don't understand.
with the zergs part, have you tried getting away from them? I was running DE's with just a buddy out in human level 15 zone and it was a blast, we really had to coordinate with eachother on those last few bits.
WvW same thing with zergs, just get AWAY from the zergs. Him and I, Ele/Mesmer. were able to keep speed up 90% of the time, so we would hit and run on people as they were coming out of their main base, and when a large group came we would get away.
there is so much more than zerging in GW2 but you have to allow yourself to LEAVE the zerg. Of course the zerg is easiest to do, but it's also the lamest.
I'm not trying to say "You're wrong!" and make a flame post or anything like that. But really when people say GW2 is just a zerg fest I just want to ask, "What did you do?".
It's beta, you have 200k people playing, and WELL over half of them are making new toons, so the starter area's WILL be flooded. Same with WvW, people don't know what to do and it's easiest to join the masses. I don't blame them, but when they say that's all GW2 has potential for, I want to say "Next BWE find me and I will show you what real WvW is all about". Because coming from DAoC I know the multitude of potential it has for small man groups.
Honestly, a good 3-4 groups of 2-3, could KILL a zerg when it comes to offense/defense of a keep/tower. Cut their supplies, kill their Dolyaks for half an hour and that defense is OUT of supplies. The potential is there, but you have to see past the zerg to get to it. This game IS siege oriented, and soem people don't like that, but it's also focused on the priorities. Supply is the biggest priority in GW2 WvW, take that from your enemy and they will not be having a good time.
when you do this, they will start to "inspect" what is going on, solo's will try to scout it out and that's when you pounce and you pounce hard! Take them down with everything you've got, and when they drop, get out of there. Move to next Dolyak, and when it drops, expect 1-2 people, take them out, you're expecting a fight sooner or later, so prepare your toon with the proper skills to throw out dps.
Sorry i kind of got on a rant
I had a blast in WvW even though my server got DOMINATED. I racked up a good 20 kills in 30 minutes with our duo we had going.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
I suspect the combat latency was a performance issue. Hopefully to be corrected. I saw it once or twice myself, but not often.
As to DEs, keep in mind that changed drastically as you leave the starter areas. Though I think perhaps Anet needs to have a few of teh less zerg-friendly DEs in the newbie areas to alleviate this opinion. The big difference between WAR PQs and DEs is that DEs have a more lasting effect (to an extent, it's not permanent). Winning a DE could open up a whole new camp of NPCs with vendors and respawn points; failing one could demolish a vital bridge or village. In addition, even failing a DE often spawns new events, and passing or failing impacts what event spawns.
I appreciate your anecdotal evidence to support the falsification of my opinion. Good job.
What kind of combat do we want? Play TERA for 5 minutes and you'll see what good combat can be in an MMORPG. Strategic movement rather than chicken with head cut off.
Furthermore, I said DE and Meta DE are zerg fests, I didn't say anything about PVP. GW2 will probably be a fairly decent PVP game minus the combat.
Speak for yourself, TERA combat is not what "we" want. It is what you want. The locked in place, button spamming is not good. That is where TERA lacks most. TERA is "chicken with legs cut off" combat. The fluidity in GW2 is so much better. Most Asian MMO's suffer from this "lock your character in place during almost every action" syndrome for some reason. It gets old and frustrating quickly. TERA, FInal Fantasy, AION, not sure if they will ever get it right. Especially in a more aciton oriented game ... it is a game breaker.
However, the worst part about TERA is seeing all the stupid ass bunny people running around in thongs. Asians need to gravitate away from their obsession with having sex with small mammal women and grow up. We haver seen enough rabbit/cat/mouse women in skimpy clothes for a lifetime ... thanks.
OK, There are 3 MMOs of the "new generation" coming out that everyone is bantering about. Allow me to make some commentary about each. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses vis a vis combat. Keep in mind these are my own personal opinions, sprinkled with some commentary both for and against each game gleaned from observing the forums.
GW2
Pros
-Exceptionally challenging
-Tends to discourage "1 2 3" optimal rotations in favor of the player deciding the best tiome to use each ability.
-Loves force multipliers (buffs and debuffs) as much or more than straight stat stacking
-Fairly flexible, with hundreds of skillcombinations.
-Heavy focus on situational awareness
-what weapon you equip changes gameplay drastically.
Cons
-Hard as heck (this is a problem to some, I'll be honest)
-Tab target locking seen by many as EZ mode (I disagree, but that's a YMMV)
-Combat can sometimes be a little zerg-y
-Sometimes locked in place for animations
Tera
Pros:
-Some focus on situational awareness (less than GW2 in my opinion)
-Near total lack of tab target/target lock
-Fast paced
-somewhat challenging
Cons
-Tends to fall into a "1 2 3" DPS spam rotation quite easily
-BAMs seem less challenging than expected; they basically are just a "dodge until you wear this stupidly-high HP mob down"
-Tends to feel a little grindy
-Less flexible in terms of skill sets/tactics.
-Each class has only a few weapon styles they can equip
-locked in place for nearly all animations.
TSW
Pros;
-Of the three, best in terms of out-of-combar tactical options (skill deck)
-Friendliest to those used to traditional MMO combat
-what weapon you equip changes gameplay drastically
Cons
-Kinda does the "1 2 3" thing, but nowhere near as bad as Tera.
-Attacks feel weak; animation/effects lack any sense of "oomph"
-Less need to think about positioning than the other two.
Those with the most Opinions tend to have the fewest Facts.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."