To sum it up - I find GW2 boring, shallow, uninspired, streamlined, game-y, no depth, no complexity, an arcade action combat game - and I predict that the game will follow the exact same path we've seen with the others: 6 months after release people will complain about empty servers: "Where is everyone?"
Wow, you must REALLY hate the game..
Hate? I'm completely unable to "hate" a mundane thing like a computer game. I'm just not interested in the game, like I'm not interested in D3, in TSW, in Tera and probably another 500 games on the gamelist here.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I've played sandboxes. They're just as constrained. They hide it differently.
i agree to this part of your statement. and they hide it different because the constraints are of different nature mostly.
i am also not against rules and limitations as some assumed mistakenly above. i just say, that themeparks overrate and overdo in some departments. GW2 did at least lower linearity. there are good things and bad things in both worlds: theme-park and sandbox. GW2 does some steps into the right direction. nothing more and nothing less.
There is a thin line between love and hate. I don't hate GW2, on the contrary I think I like it a little to much where I am afraid that if changes aren't made the game is destined to push alot of potential players away because the PVE is not 100% at this point imho.
Dynamic Events, They just don't scale properly and in some cases are not possible to do solo. The point here is that you've seen it before in other MMO games with this type of content delivery system when nobody is in the newbie zones or the population thins out over time. This discourages solo'ing, alts, and more importantly new players which is the life blood of any MMORPG at any point in it's lifecycle. People keep returning to wow because the cost of entry is very low to get back into the swing of things and be productive.
The good news is, scaling issues tend to get fixed. Take the ever-infamous Flame Shaman in the CHarr area. He's now sanely completeable. I don't feel that the game discourages solo play at all in its INTENT; most events are meant to be soloable. I will agree their current iteration tends to not always be the same case. However Anet seems good about responding to feedback.
Dungeons, These are not tuned properly for a bring any profession and just run a dungeon, regardless of if it's ment to be hardcore raid content or not. If you have to plan ahead and pick certain traits and skills and professions that may not be a trinity (tank,healer,dps) but it is still a similar amalgamation that is exactly opposite of what it should mean to have no trinity, since you can't be as effective, or even complete content otherwise.
Sadly, I've yet to get into Ascalon Catacombs. Too busy puting zround with alts, etc. I'll have to withold comment unti lthe next BWE.
Melee right now is now outside of PVP is not implemented well as you are encouraged to stay at range, the whole everyone has a range weapon argument is invalid. Why bother with melee weapons at all then if you get instantly destroyed in dungeons in melee range without warning more often than not so you can't dodge, etc. I would understand if melee was incredibly powerfull and thus equal risk to get one shot to use it in favor of range, however any game where you get 1 shot is bad game design imho.
I constantly hear this, and I constantly disagree. I still think a LOT of the complaint against melee stems from the fact most players are used to toe-to-toe slugfests in MMOs. We've been doing that since EQ. HOWEVER, I will agree that the tell animations of many creatures are sub-par and need work. I do feel melee has a great deal of power, more than many people give it credit for. But it does take quite a bit of a shift in thought process to get used to. Anet is also aware of this; they stickied a thread in the official forums asking for players' opinions on melee combat and what can be done to fix it. I do hope whatever that it, it doesn't involve dumbing down the challenge level to where all I have to do is stand next to a mob and fire off a few abilities. That will break the game for me personally. I LIKE the danger.
Loot is downplayed too much, if you look at WOW for example, people don't do dungeons or raid to get loot because it looks a certain way, they do it because it's an upgrade to what they currently have and is a sense of acomplishment because it makes their character more effective, the cool looks of the gear is just the cherry on top. If you take 1 half out of that equation and just have cool looking gear but then you can waste 6 months trying to get that cool gear or spend 5 minutes and get gear with equal stats, more often that not most would probably just spend the 5 minutes. To compound this issue, there realy isn't bad looking gear in GW2 so the motivation is not that strong to begin with. If you look at TOR the way gear was implemented had a helping hand in the game's downfall as you could get raid equivalent stat gear just by doing PVP which at the level cap was the only interesting thing left to do anyway if you got the raid gear through PVE..the PVP gear was better since it had PVP stats on top of the PVE stats. When there is no reason to suffer through a poorly implemented designed dungeon that takes 4 hours to complete I don't see that boding very well for the PVE game in the long run.
I don't mind gear levels having a statistical advantage. I mind the treadmill; and worse yet the bloat. I get to the pinnacle, kill a boss that few people ever could, and I get an awesome piece of loot. Two months later an expansion releases and newbs are getting better gear off basic quests. The only thing my gear has going for it is the unique look; and I find that not mattering because in MMO gear stats>all. WoW has adopted a transmute system that mostly (why the hell aren't legendaries transmutable? seriously) Alleviated this, but why need it at all? And with GW2 not having traditional raiding, the need for escalating tiers of gear just doesn't seem to be there. As to GW2's gear looks...yes they start out looking MUCH better than, say, WOW. But high-end and rare gear look even still better than that. I'm cool with it as is.
The PvP game as far as anyone can tell is great in GW2. GW1 was very much a PVP focused game as well when all was said and done. This is GW2 so there should be no surprise. I am a little disapointed because like any good fanboy drinking the kool-aid I expected this to be the last great hope for MMORPG games. I had lots of faith in Arenanet before seeing Ascalan Catacombs dungeon because I can't fathom how it would get past internal beta in such a state as to have trash npcs that were harder to defeat than the bosses simply because the 1 shot people 'ala D3 inferno mode and the only tactic was to spawn zerg most of the content down which was tedius and not challenging.
What I hear in this is "I had inflated expecations and got let down." While I can understand that, I think a healthy dose of cynicism never hurts. I went into BWE1 expecting a traditional MMO experience with a few interesting bells and whistles added; but secretly hoping for something better. And I feel I got it. To me the game didn't re-invent the wheel; it just made the best damn wheel I've played in years.
I'll agree that anything that encourages zerging is horrendous. I think that issue is a combination of:
A) Teams not applying tactics well. Seriously, 5 people, and almost every class has a ton of daze/stun/blind abilities? You should be able to control much of a mob's actions if you apply teamwork well. And let's not forget combo skills; I see them rarely get used, but I've seen them make a difference when they do.
The aforementioned "tells" issue. Melee should be able to clearly see when a 1-shottable attack is coming and have a chance to avoid it.
C) Mobs ignoring ranged too much. They get it WAY too easy sometimes.
I think given time and proper feedback this can be resolved. I just don't want it dumbed down to a WoW-level. Or even a Tera-level.
I hope they can fix these things, I really want this game to be perfect. The track record of most MMO companies says that I will be sorely disappointed however.
I've pre-purchased GW2, I don't regret it...it does some things very well, I can only deal with it and stop obsessing like it's the end all and be all of MMORPGS however as that will only lead to disapointment.
I love this type of thread. People arguing about facts/ideas based solely on personal opinion/perception.
Here is why I will dislike GW2
It's just too damn fun, and will eat up all my time. Please release in the Fall so I don't waste a Summer.
The world is just too immersive.
I miss not having to spam LFG LFG to do a group quest.
It's just not PvP unless some high level @&;& can gank low levels in the starter area to feel good about themself.
It's not an MMO unless I grind for 20 hours per level. MMO's shouldn't be for people who work, and have kids. Damn casuals!!
Later
Great they finally made a super casual style game for you and hopefully every other casual gamer will never move from gw2 so we may get a game that has challenge where people who log in 2 hours a week won't complain and get the game dumbed down so you can feel the same as someone who can play 20 hours+ a week.
Classes are incredibly boring. (personal opinion, and my biggest issue getting further into the game).
The actual fact they bothered with levels at all, it basically means you are not allowed to freely explore the world, cause you get killed, cause your a low level.
Levels unlocking spells - means im stuck with shoot for ages, and most dynamic events are kill things until you wear out the shoot spell.
Majority of dynamic events have no story worth listening too, meaning the farmer needs you to save his cows isn't an interesting plotline. When theres a million quests of saving farmers from various plights it gets what you call a "grind".
WvWvW is actually incredibly well done, and I will probably spend most of my time in here.
The zones are very immersive and the art is fantastic. (Pity I have to kill heaps of things in order to visit the later probably more awesome looking zones)
Very polished game.
Interactable game world.
AHH - personal story not for children under 10 - where do you live? I don't think I want to live there then.
So want you want is a free romp through the world w/o having any consequences - that would be no fun.
Dynamic events - depending - do connect to the story but you actually need to listen to them to really get that. Little bits of information are important.
There is a thin line between love and hate. I don't hate GW2, on the contrary I think I like it a little to much where I am afraid that if changes aren't made the game is destined to push alot of potential players away because the PVE is not 100% at this point imho.
Dynamic Events, They just don't scale properly and in some cases are not possible to do solo. The point here is that you've seen it before in other MMO games with this type of content delivery system when nobody is in the newbie zones or the population thins out over time. This discourages solo'ing, alts, and more importantly new players which is the life blood of any MMORPG at any point in it's lifecycle. People keep returning to wow because the cost of entry is very low to get back into the swing of things and be productive.
The good news is, scaling issues tend to get fixed. Take the ever-infamous Flame Shaman in the CHarr area. He's now sanely completeable. I don't feel that the game discourages solo play at all in its INTENT; most events are meant to be soloable. I will agree their current iteration tends to not always be the same case. However Anet seems good about responding to feedback.
Dungeons, These are not tuned properly for a bring any profession and just run a dungeon, regardless of if it's ment to be hardcore raid content or not. If you have to plan ahead and pick certain traits and skills and professions that may not be a trinity (tank,healer,dps) but it is still a similar amalgamation that is exactly opposite of what it should mean to have no trinity, since you can't be as effective, or even complete content otherwise.
Sadly, I've yet to get into Ascalon Catacombs. Too busy puting zround with alts, etc. I'll have to withold comment unti lthe next BWE.
Melee right now is now outside of PVP is not implemented well as you are encouraged to stay at range, the whole everyone has a range weapon argument is invalid. Why bother with melee weapons at all then if you get instantly destroyed in dungeons in melee range without warning more often than not so you can't dodge, etc. I would understand if melee was incredibly powerfull and thus equal risk to get one shot to use it in favor of range, however any game where you get 1 shot is bad game design imho.
I constantly hear this, and I constantly disagree. I still think a LOT of the complaint against melee stems from the fact most players are used to toe-to-toe slugfests in MMOs. We've been doing that since EQ. HOWEVER, I will agree that the tell animations of many creatures are sub-par and need work. I do feel melee has a great deal of power, more than many people give it credit for. But it does take quite a bit of a shift in thought process to get used to. Anet is also aware of this; they stickied a thread in the official forums asking for players' opinions on melee combat and what can be done to fix it. I do hope whatever that it, it doesn't involve dumbing down the challenge level to where all I have to do is stand next to a mob and fire off a few abilities. That will break the game for me personally. I LIKE the danger.
Loot is downplayed too much, if you look at WOW for example, people don't do dungeons or raid to get loot because it looks a certain way, they do it because it's an upgrade to what they currently have and is a sense of acomplishment because it makes their character more effective, the cool looks of the gear is just the cherry on top. If you take 1 half out of that equation and just have cool looking gear but then you can waste 6 months trying to get that cool gear or spend 5 minutes and get gear with equal stats, more often that not most would probably just spend the 5 minutes. To compound this issue, there realy isn't bad looking gear in GW2 so the motivation is not that strong to begin with. If you look at TOR the way gear was implemented had a helping hand in the game's downfall as you could get raid equivalent stat gear just by doing PVP which at the level cap was the only interesting thing left to do anyway if you got the raid gear through PVE..the PVP gear was better since it had PVP stats on top of the PVE stats. When there is no reason to suffer through a poorly implemented designed dungeon that takes 4 hours to complete I don't see that boding very well for the PVE game in the long run.
I don't mind gear levels having a statistical advantage. I mind the treadmill; and worse yet the bloat. I get to the pinnacle, kill a boss that few people ever could, and I get an awesome piece of loot. Two months later an expansion releases and newbs are getting better gear off basic quests. The only thing my gear has going for it is the unique look; and I find that not mattering because in MMO gear stats>all. WoW has adopted a transmute system that mostly (why the hell aren't legendaries transmutable? seriously) Alleviated this, but why need it at all? And with GW2 not having traditional raiding, the need for escalating tiers of gear just doesn't seem to be there. As to GW2's gear looks...yes they start out looking MUCH better than, say, WOW. But high-end and rare gear look even still better than that. I'm cool with it as is.
The PvP game as far as anyone can tell is great in GW2. GW1 was very much a PVP focused game as well when all was said and done. This is GW2 so there should be no surprise. I am a little disapointed because like any good fanboy drinking the kool-aid I expected this to be the last great hope for MMORPG games. I had lots of faith in Arenanet before seeing Ascalan Catacombs dungeon because I can't fathom how it would get past internal beta in such a state as to have trash npcs that were harder to defeat than the bosses simply because the 1 shot people 'ala D3 inferno mode and the only tactic was to spawn zerg most of the content down which was tedius and not challenging.
What I hear in this is "I had inflated expecations and got let down." While I can understand that, I think a healthy dose of cynicism never hurts. I went into BWE1 expecting a traditional MMO experience with a few interesting bells and whistles added; but secretly hoping for something better. And I feel I got it. To me the game didn't re-invent the wheel; it just made the best damn wheel I've played in years.
I'll agree that anything that encourages zerging is horrendous. I think that issue is a combination of:
A) Teams not applying tactics well. Seriously, 5 people, and almost every class has a ton of daze/stun/blind abilities? You should be able to control much of a mob's actions if you apply teamwork well. And let's not forget combo skills; I see them rarely get used, but I've seen them make a difference when they do.
The aforementioned "tells" issue. Melee should be able to clearly see when a 1-shottable attack is coming and have a chance to avoid it.
C) Mobs ignoring ranged too much. They get it WAY too easy sometimes.
I think given time and proper feedback this can be resolved. I just don't want it dumbed down to a WoW-level. Or even a Tera-level.
I hope they can fix these things, I really want this game to be perfect. The track record of most MMO companies says that I will be sorely disappointed however.
I've pre-purchased GW2, I don't regret it...it does some things very well, I can only deal with it and stop obsessing like it's the end all and be all of MMORPGS however as that will only lead to disapointment.
Comments in cyan.
I would tend to agree with everything you said if I was going by my experiences in BWE1. Until you've done Ascalon Catacombs in both Story and Explorable mode in BWE2 than you can't realy make the same arguments. That was my particular rude awakening and I was very gung ho for this game up until that point. Also you comments about playing well goes out the window as I've been in multiple groups with a different sampling of good and bad players and it was far beyond staying out of crap on the ground, or using control skills. Most of the enemies were immune to such things or even cause adverse effects if you tried to use them.
There is no such thing as challenging in the current way the game is setup, for example it's not about using your skillset to think outside the box to defeat content. At least that is not equal accross the board for every profession some professions excel more at using certain skills to acomplish things. If things stay as they are with unequality..you have a trinity in a different name. It's not about learning to melee or use skills when normal attacks 1 shot you.
Right now the boss mechanics are easy to understand but they are way overpowered in their implementation. That is not challenging or difficult, that is borderline insanity as you zerg spawn content expecting a different result.
I've completed the story mode, I've done as much of the explorable as I could stand as it took 2-3 hours to make any progress with 1 group until a brick wall was hit with a certain encounter which involved burrowers past a giant black widow spider.
Normally I would not give 2 shits about an MMO to even bother posting anything, I hope this constructive criticism is listened to. I don't want a dumbed down game, but neither do I want a game that it would be more enoyable to rub one's nuts on a cheese grater than to actively play.
This thread was perfectly fine at the beginning. The aim of the thread was to allow people who have any objections to GW 2 to explain their opinion.
On the first 5-6 pages, people really were expressing what they do not like about the game which they were asked for. I think that nobody was actually bashing the game out of hate, also there was no flame (at least considering the forum standard). Vast majority of the posts included points which actually seemed pretty reasonable.
Then suddenly several people who take any criticism towards this computer game personally came in and started to insult the people who expressed their opinions or to argue with them trying to prove them wrong. You cannot argue with someone's opinion. It is like trying to persuade a person who loves blue color that red is actually the best one.
Coming to a thread that asks for negative opinion and make posts starting "all you haters..." like some I came across here is ridiculous. Half of the people admitted that the game is good and that it just does not appeal to them. The fact that certain people cannot accept other people's opinion turned this thread into flame somewhere around page 5-6.
I would recommend to these people to stay open-minded.
None of what the OP listed has anything to do with my opinion.
My opinion is that nothing is ever as good as it seems, nor as bad as you fear.
Therefore, I discount any 'utopian' opinions of this game, as I reject 'doom and gloom' opinions of this game.
I am going to play it. I am going to enjoy it. But I refuse to bow down to it as a messiah of gaming.
Why?
1. GW1 didn't turn me on.
2. I hate invisible walls.
3. I like to raid.
4. I have a gut skepticsm (with no facts to back it up) that the playstyle will become stale after the newness wears off.
5. I like playing a specific role in a group. (I'm open to their system, just skeptical of its longevity or whether it will give me the feel of interdependence) I know I know, you guys have told me I won't feel that way, so I'm open to it, I'm just skeptical.
6. VG, AoC, WAR, SWToR, etc. - nothing has been as good as the hype since WoW. Maybe GW2 will break the mold, but history teaches us to be skeptical of hype.
I dont see it keeping my intrest longer than a month because, I dont see anything to strive for. I am an old school MMO player I want super rare items, I dont want everything given out with minimal effort. Its not so much that I have to have the items, but the effort in trying to get them is what keeps me going. The problem with most mmo's these days is you reach the top of the mountian WAY TO FAST. When you get to the top theres nothing left to do but run around in your shinnies. There always needs to be something to strive for, to keep you going. This isnt just a gw2 problem this is a problem in all modern MMO's.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Wow , thank you all for the replies. Read as many as I could (when I left there were zero comments on the thread) and there is some good stuff here. A lot of the replies have been a little off topic though. I'd appreciate it if we could flesh out some of the replies more. If you want, also include what you were hoping the game to be like (in whatever area you find it lacking) and if there are any games out that do it better than GW2 does.
I'll attempt to reply to the general feel of the thread. As it's hard to reply to 8 pages of posts all at once if there is a point you brought up and I missed acknowledging it here please either repost it or paraphrase it in response to this post. That way I can try to respond to all of the ideas in the thread.
First of all I'll say that I realize my initial arguements were very black and white, 'if you don't like this style of combat than you must like the old style'. It was meant to be that way. I meant to encourage some thought into how someone would prefer things, if not in the way presented here. I ask for a reference of a game that does it better to give some thought into what is actually possible for a game to do.
One poster noted a game idea where a player could clear an area and make their own town and then defend it from orcs. Its a nice idea, on paper. Please don't misunderstand, it sounds phenominal. Most things, however, do not work out quite so nicely when transfered from idea to playable product. Every game you play, every aspect of them, sounded extraordinary on paper. That's what got them signed in the first place. Thousands of them, however, face unexpected issues. Perhaps the system isn't balanced in some way, or there isn't enough game space to house all those player towns, or it would be too demanding on systems and limit the playerbase too much to get any funding, or maybe it just turns out to be not as fun as it sounds in writing. Perhaps it becomes tedius, do players need to be present to defend this village at all times? Or are there NPC's to do it? If there are NPC's how strong should they be?
The point is its easy to come up with an idea that sounds good on paper but is not actually do-able or fun in implementation. Is there any game with this idea in use? Regardless, this idea still involves killing, gathering, defending and solving in the form of clearing an area, building a town, and defending it thereafter. There is no escaping these paradigmes. The thought I had hoped to inspire was the idea that it is not what your doing in a game but how your doing it. It is all in the presentation. Thus, my confusion is endless when people say "well, your still gathering and killing things". To me that seems like an obvious and unavoidable action.
Some do not like the art and storyline. I can understand that. Again though, please provide examples of what you'd been expecting/hoping it to be like while providing some example of a game that either does it better or promises to do it better when it releases.
Others of you note performance and balance issues. I won't really be responding to these due to the game being in beta. No, beta does not excuse fundamental game design choices. It does, however, excuse error in code or error in foresight. Performance and balance are two of the main reasons a game has a beta at all. Many features are absent for the betas and balance is fluctuating wildly every time we play it. I won't ask you to change your opinion about the game, just please refrain from labeling anything regarding balance or performance as one of your issues with the game. I won't take these complaints seriously until the game is launched. This includes dynamic event scaling (which is in the process of being balanced now).
That being said, with all respect (which, of course, means I'm about to sound really rude) please do not post if you are not willing to provide specific examples of what you don't like, how you'd hoped it would be, and a game either out or in development that comes close to doing it better than GW2. I respect your opinion but this just isn't the thread for it. If you feel the combat is boring please label something boring about it, how you'd hoped it would be, and a game that does it better. If you simply want to share a brief opinion about the game there are many other threads that are for that.
I'm sure I missed a ton of good points. If I didn't really address a point you brought up just attach what you said again in a reply. Thanks guys, keep the discussion going.
Don't you ever feel like that your desire to be "the hero of the world" clashes with your immersion in MMORPGs?
Immersion doesn't work that way for people in most MMORPG's, because it is not the task of video games to become, well, a "life is unfair" simulator. Most people play games for fun, escape, cooling off, so that element is one of the first that goes out the window. We do not lose immersion because we become the hero. While extreme realism can be fun for many people, it's a bit abnormal, since there's plenty of in real life as it is.
I wonder though how many people feel like you in that aspect. Perhaps the majority are happy with just being a member, socializing, going on adventures without ever feeling like being the "hero of the world"; at least that is what I've always suspected.
I think people are OK with being all-right and not necessarily heroes of the world, but many sandbox MMORPG's go as far as to make a new player a complete nobody and keep him a complete nobody for a really long time. Some people do not enjoy being bossed around much, they want to be in control and want the game to allow for their expression.
If a person wants to build a house, but it's impossible to build a house alone, and they are forced to go help someone else build their stupid house or not build it at all, well, you see where that's going.
I dont see it keeping my intrest longer than a month because, I dont see anything to strive for. I am an old school MMO player I want super rare items, I dont want everything given out with minimal effort. Its not so much that I have to have the items, but the effort in trying to get them is what keeps me going. The problem with most mmo's these days is you reach the top of the mountian WAY TO FAST. When you get to the top theres nothing left to do but run around in your shinnies. There always needs to be something to strive for, to keep you going. This isnt just a gw2 problem this is a problem in all modern MMO's.
This sir, is one of the most understanding responses Ive seen in this thread.
I have a feeling this game will be a big disapointment, even if this game turns out to be good. People are making this game to be out some holy graal which means even if its a golden cup containing the best tasting liquid in the world, its still not going to be any good compared to the holy graal its imagined to be. Its going to have so many people disapointed becuase their expectations were so extreme that I think many will quit quickly. Don't get me wrong, I'm expecting there to be flaws that will lower population as normal, but the over-hype will draw players to quit the game who would otherwise stay if they didn't buy into the insane hype.
I have a feeling this game will be a big disapointment, even if this game turns out to be good. People are making this game to be out some holy graal which means even if its a golden cup containing the best tasting liquid in the world, its still not going to be any good compared to the holy graal its imagined to be. Its going to have so many people disapointed becuase their expectations were so extreme that I think many will quit quickly. Don't get me wrong, I'm expecting there to be flaws that will lower population as normal, but the over-hype will draw players to quit the game who would otherwise stay if they didn't buy into the insane hype.
I have a feeling there might be a backlash also. Although I don't think it will be much because this game has no subs. That is what many use to grief game launches.
In single player RPGs it is usually not immersion breaking since there is no contradiction in one person being the hero of a world. The problem with the "I want to be the hero of the world" in MMORPGs is that can lead to the bizarre situation where you have many players who are all "the hero of the world" which leads to a contradiction within that world. You cannot all be the one person who individually defeated the big threat. All parties cannot all be the one party that defeated the big threat.
It's not immersion breaking if it's managed correctly, permitting for multiple heroes (most MMORPG's I've seen allow for that), and if all side roles are actually filled by NPC's. In fact, GW2's management of this is is very good, especially compared to WoW. Rather than get an individualized quest, you have dynamic events that pepole can participate in or not, and they're something that actually changes in the world. Not immersion breaking at all.
While you can argue that 2 people doing the same quest is a bit immersion breaking, that is mostly a technical artifact. There are a lot of things in gaming that are limited simply by technology/time/resources, that doesn't necessarily break immersion. There are many games not realistic at all but very immersive, how did you play all those low-graphics pixelated games back in the day?
I think the game is fine for a B2P title but look past the smoke and mirrors and your left with very little in terms of long-term immersion and meaningful gameplay.
80 levels of DE's and hearts will get old, trust me.
Two week long WvW matches will become very lame after the newness wheres off.
Running dungeons for cosmetic rewards will seem silly in a few months.
Cash shop items will affect the economy and put an asterisk next to most people's achievements whether they used the cash shop or not. (not saying Pay to Win but it will affect the game in a negative way)
I think the game is exactly what ANet pitched it to be, an MMO designed for people who don't like MMO's.
Personally, I love gear progression and having the ability to make my character more powerful through stats and mitigation.
I like the trinity because it assigns specific responsibilities to players in groups. I also enjoy the different play styles that the trinity offers which makes rolling alts much more fun.
Then suddenly several people who take any criticism towards this computer game personally came in and started to insult the people who expressed their opinions or to argue with them trying to prove them wrong. You cannot argue with someone's opinion. It is like trying to persuade a person who loves blue color that red is actually the best one.
We can't provide counter-arguments to what people say now? Even when we get posts like Thorbrand's?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I have a feeling this game will be a big disapointment, even if this game turns out to be good. People are making this game to be out some holy graal which means even if its a golden cup containing the best tasting liquid in the world, its still not going to be any good compared to the holy graal its imagined to be. Its going to have so many people disapointed becuase their expectations were so extreme that I think many will quit quickly. Don't get me wrong, I'm expecting there to be flaws that will lower population as normal, but the over-hype will draw players to quit the game who would otherwise stay if they didn't buy into the insane hype.
I'm sorry, but people who buy into insane hype are what they are. Nobody asked them to. I am still not sure what hype are you even referring to.
This is WoW's replacement for explorers and questers. That IS what it is. It is the holy grail for those who want exactly that, it is the holy grail for myself and many others.
It is NOT a sandbox. Never in the hype did anyone say it is.
It is NOT a raider/endgame game. Never in the hype did anyone say it is.
For those two groups, it's definitely not the holy grail. In fact, I don't see why they'd be looking at it at all.
Comments
Hate? I'm completely unable to "hate" a mundane thing like a computer game. I'm just not interested in the game, like I'm not interested in D3, in TSW, in Tera and probably another 500 games on the gamelist here.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
i agree to this part of your statement. and they hide it different because the constraints are of different nature mostly.
i am also not against rules and limitations as some assumed mistakenly above. i just say, that themeparks overrate and overdo in some departments. GW2 did at least lower linearity. there are good things and bad things in both worlds: theme-park and sandbox. GW2 does some steps into the right direction. nothing more and nothing less.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Comments in cyan.
I love this type of thread. People arguing about facts/ideas based solely on personal opinion/perception.
Here is why I will dislike GW2
It's just too damn fun, and will eat up all my time. Please release in the Fall so I don't waste a Summer.
The world is just too immersive.
I miss not having to spam LFG LFG to do a group quest.
It's just not PvP unless some high level @&;& can gank low levels in the starter area to feel good about themself.
It's not an MMO unless I grind for 20 hours per level. MMO's shouldn't be for people who work, and have kids. Damn casuals!!
Later
Great they finally made a super casual style game for you and hopefully every other casual gamer will never move from gw2 so we may get a game that has challenge where people who log in 2 hours a week won't complain and get the game dumbed down so you can feel the same as someone who can play 20 hours+ a week.
AHH - personal story not for children under 10 - where do you live? I don't think I want to live there then.
So want you want is a free romp through the world w/o having any consequences - that would be no fun.
Dynamic events - depending - do connect to the story but you actually need to listen to them to really get that. Little bits of information are important.
Fun is overrated.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I would tend to agree with everything you said if I was going by my experiences in BWE1. Until you've done Ascalon Catacombs in both Story and Explorable mode in BWE2 than you can't realy make the same arguments. That was my particular rude awakening and I was very gung ho for this game up until that point. Also you comments about playing well goes out the window as I've been in multiple groups with a different sampling of good and bad players and it was far beyond staying out of crap on the ground, or using control skills. Most of the enemies were immune to such things or even cause adverse effects if you tried to use them.
There is no such thing as challenging in the current way the game is setup, for example it's not about using your skillset to think outside the box to defeat content. At least that is not equal accross the board for every profession some professions excel more at using certain skills to acomplish things. If things stay as they are with unequality..you have a trinity in a different name. It's not about learning to melee or use skills when normal attacks 1 shot you.
Right now the boss mechanics are easy to understand but they are way overpowered in their implementation. That is not challenging or difficult, that is borderline insanity as you zerg spawn content expecting a different result.
I've completed the story mode, I've done as much of the explorable as I could stand as it took 2-3 hours to make any progress with 1 group until a brick wall was hit with a certain encounter which involved burrowers past a giant black widow spider.
Normally I would not give 2 shits about an MMO to even bother posting anything, I hope this constructive criticism is listened to. I don't want a dumbed down game, but neither do I want a game that it would be more enoyable to rub one's nuts on a cheese grater than to actively play.
Sure after BWE 2 GW2 is just updated GW1 with Dumbed down TSW combat! Facts are the facts! Wish they had made the MMO they promised.
The true trolls are the fanboys
None of what the OP listed has anything to do with my opinion.
My opinion is that nothing is ever as good as it seems, nor as bad as you fear.
Therefore, I discount any 'utopian' opinions of this game, as I reject 'doom and gloom' opinions of this game.
I am going to play it. I am going to enjoy it. But I refuse to bow down to it as a messiah of gaming.
Why?
1. GW1 didn't turn me on.
2. I hate invisible walls.
3. I like to raid.
4. I have a gut skepticsm (with no facts to back it up) that the playstyle will become stale after the newness wears off.
5. I like playing a specific role in a group. (I'm open to their system, just skeptical of its longevity or whether it will give me the feel of interdependence) I know I know, you guys have told me I won't feel that way, so I'm open to it, I'm just skeptical.
6. VG, AoC, WAR, SWToR, etc. - nothing has been as good as the hype since WoW. Maybe GW2 will break the mold, but history teaches us to be skeptical of hype.
Well I am late to the dance:
But heres why I will skip GW2,
I dont see it keeping my intrest longer than a month because, I dont see anything to strive for. I am an old school MMO player I want super rare items, I dont want everything given out with minimal effort. Its not so much that I have to have the items, but the effort in trying to get them is what keeps me going. The problem with most mmo's these days is you reach the top of the mountian WAY TO FAST. When you get to the top theres nothing left to do but run around in your shinnies. There always needs to be something to strive for, to keep you going. This isnt just a gw2 problem this is a problem in all modern MMO's.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Wow
, thank you all for the replies. Read as many as I could (when I left there were zero comments on the thread) and there is some good stuff here. A lot of the replies have been a little off topic though. I'd appreciate it if we could flesh out some of the replies more. If you want, also include what you were hoping the game to be like (in whatever area you find it lacking) and if there are any games out that do it better than GW2 does.
I'll attempt to reply to the general feel of the thread. As it's hard to reply to 8 pages of posts all at once if there is a point you brought up and I missed acknowledging it here please either repost it or paraphrase it in response to this post. That way I can try to respond to all of the ideas in the thread.
First of all I'll say that I realize my initial arguements were very black and white, 'if you don't like this style of combat than you must like the old style'. It was meant to be that way. I meant to encourage some thought into how someone would prefer things, if not in the way presented here. I ask for a reference of a game that does it better to give some thought into what is actually possible for a game to do.
One poster noted a game idea where a player could clear an area and make their own town and then defend it from orcs. Its a nice idea, on paper. Please don't misunderstand, it sounds phenominal. Most things, however, do not work out quite so nicely when transfered from idea to playable product. Every game you play, every aspect of them, sounded extraordinary on paper. That's what got them signed in the first place. Thousands of them, however, face unexpected issues. Perhaps the system isn't balanced in some way, or there isn't enough game space to house all those player towns, or it would be too demanding on systems and limit the playerbase too much to get any funding, or maybe it just turns out to be not as fun as it sounds in writing. Perhaps it becomes tedius, do players need to be present to defend this village at all times? Or are there NPC's to do it? If there are NPC's how strong should they be?
The point is its easy to come up with an idea that sounds good on paper but is not actually do-able or fun in implementation. Is there any game with this idea in use? Regardless, this idea still involves killing, gathering, defending and solving in the form of clearing an area, building a town, and defending it thereafter. There is no escaping these paradigmes. The thought I had hoped to inspire was the idea that it is not what your doing in a game but how your doing it. It is all in the presentation. Thus, my confusion is endless when people say "well, your still gathering and killing things". To me that seems like an obvious and unavoidable action.
Some do not like the art and storyline. I can understand that. Again though, please provide examples of what you'd been expecting/hoping it to be like while providing some example of a game that either does it better or promises to do it better when it releases.
Others of you note performance and balance issues. I won't really be responding to these due to the game being in beta. No, beta does not excuse fundamental game design choices. It does, however, excuse error in code or error in foresight. Performance and balance are two of the main reasons a game has a beta at all. Many features are absent for the betas and balance is fluctuating wildly every time we play it. I won't ask you to change your opinion about the game, just please refrain from labeling anything regarding balance or performance as one of your issues with the game. I won't take these complaints seriously until the game is launched. This includes dynamic event scaling (which is in the process of being balanced now).
That being said, with all respect (which, of course, means I'm about to sound really rude) please do not post if you are not willing to provide specific examples of what you don't like, how you'd hoped it would be, and a game either out or in development that comes close to doing it better than GW2. I respect your opinion but this just isn't the thread for it. If you feel the combat is boring please label something boring about it, how you'd hoped it would be, and a game that does it better. If you simply want to share a brief opinion about the game there are many other threads that are for that.
I'm sure I missed a ton of good points. If I didn't really address a point you brought up just attach what you said again in a reply. Thanks guys, keep the discussion going.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
This sir, is one of the most understanding responses Ive seen in this thread.
I have a feeling this game will be a big disapointment, even if this game turns out to be good. People are making this game to be out some holy graal which means even if its a golden cup containing the best tasting liquid in the world, its still not going to be any good compared to the holy graal its imagined to be. Its going to have so many people disapointed becuase their expectations were so extreme that I think many will quit quickly. Don't get me wrong, I'm expecting there to be flaws that will lower population as normal, but the over-hype will draw players to quit the game who would otherwise stay if they didn't buy into the insane hype.
I have a feeling there might be a backlash also. Although I don't think it will be much because this game has no subs. That is what many use to grief game launches.
It's not immersion breaking if it's managed correctly, permitting for multiple heroes (most MMORPG's I've seen allow for that), and if all side roles are actually filled by NPC's. In fact, GW2's management of this is is very good, especially compared to WoW. Rather than get an individualized quest, you have dynamic events that pepole can participate in or not, and they're something that actually changes in the world. Not immersion breaking at all.
While you can argue that 2 people doing the same quest is a bit immersion breaking, that is mostly a technical artifact. There are a lot of things in gaming that are limited simply by technology/time/resources, that doesn't necessarily break immersion. There are many games not realistic at all but very immersive, how did you play all those low-graphics pixelated games back in the day?
Seriously play TSW...it has the same combat more advanced. GW2 after BW2 is a poor MMO very poor MMO. Don't blindly follow the masses.
I have done two BWE for both games and TSW is a way more advanced MMO in every way except PvP. [mod edit]
I think the game is fine for a B2P title but look past the smoke and mirrors and your left with very little in terms of long-term immersion and meaningful gameplay.
80 levels of DE's and hearts will get old, trust me.
Two week long WvW matches will become very lame after the newness wheres off.
Running dungeons for cosmetic rewards will seem silly in a few months.
Cash shop items will affect the economy and put an asterisk next to most people's achievements whether they used the cash shop or not. (not saying Pay to Win but it will affect the game in a negative way)
I think the game is exactly what ANet pitched it to be, an MMO designed for people who don't like MMO's.
Personally, I love gear progression and having the ability to make my character more powerful through stats and mitigation.
I like the trinity because it assigns specific responsibilities to players in groups. I also enjoy the different play styles that the trinity offers which makes rolling alts much more fun.
We can't provide counter-arguments to what people say now? Even when we get posts like Thorbrand's?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I'm sorry, but people who buy into insane hype are what they are. Nobody asked them to. I am still not sure what hype are you even referring to.
This is WoW's replacement for explorers and questers. That IS what it is. It is the holy grail for those who want exactly that, it is the holy grail for myself and many others.
It is NOT a sandbox. Never in the hype did anyone say it is.
It is NOT a raider/endgame game. Never in the hype did anyone say it is.
For those two groups, it's definitely not the holy grail. In fact, I don't see why they'd be looking at it at all.