A game only needs to keep my interest for 31 days to get my sub fee...according to OPs list...then only thing that matters to me is 3..the rest not an issue..as Im pretty sure im going to be on off to another game before day 60 comes by. Too many good games on the market these days to worry about finding " The One". Im happily playing them all. P2P, B2P, F2P, Freemium means nothing to me..ill get to them all in time.
Example: The day I bought Tera, I preordered TSW and signed up for MWO's CBT. Scatterbrained..yah a ilittle. My biggest complaint about this life is that there isnt enough me to play all the games I want to play . I so wish I was Jamie Maddrox at times...
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
games built for longevity, not instant gratification get them out the door sell as many boxes as possible and fix the rest later games. in other words, I probably need to find a new hobby.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Is merely keeping the server open and spending a buck or two on the bandwidth enough, or do you demand more for your $10-$15 a month?
In my opinion, paying a subscription fee should entitle the MMO customer to expect at minimum the following:
(1) Frequent, regular bug-fixing and exploit-patching
(2) Competent, active GMs
(3) A game that's in a fully working condition to play, and which fufills the promises made by advertising (or at the least, has the reasonable expectation of fulfilling those not currently delivered in the near future)
(4) An active, responsive community team
Being avidly against the older models for mmos and to answer your title question for this post, Absolutely nothing justifies a sub fee, unless its <$10. We've already been shown by Arenanet that subscription models are empty revenue, empty in that developers like Blizzard for example won't use it to actually add non-expansion improvements and content to the games and that it isn't required for server upkeep or transfers. IE Cataclysm was already developed long before the rest of the patches that inserted the other two sections of the cata story were actually released, and now it's just sitting there with no new content until the Panda expansion is released.
I think paying subscribers should also reasonably expect at least some of:
(5) Access to all the content in the game without further payment
(6) An expectation that the game will continue to be developed and expanded, and for that direction to be communicated
(7) Some level of input or interaction with the Dev team as to the future direction of the game.
(8) Proper game documentation and tutorials
Completely agree with all of these 5-8 they should definitely and always move in the direction of what the players want, mainly because we've seen time and time again that devs get too egotistical about their game and think they know better about everything including balance. WOW, SWTOR, AoC.
What are your thoughts? Which subscription MMOs actually deliver to your expectations for a subscription? Should subbed MMOs which don't deliver go F2P or should they raise their game, so to speak?
I Think that the best model for games would be a freemium model that had a lower sub fee then the standard old $15 with a store that sells everything accept gear for characters if the game is a gear treadmill game. The cost should be more along the lines of $8 especially since the economy is the way it is. Even netflix and hulu only cost that amount per month to use their media. The $15 a month thing was a nice starter, it was during a time before the housing crash and the banks destroyed many people's incomes and the $8 would still give the game a nice even stream of revenue this with a store would give the game titles large chunks of revenue in the midst of the steady sub.
And that's all if you wanted to keep a sub, but the F2P models have all shown us time and time again the the sub is no longer necessary nor is it as profitable as the F2P model is because if customers don't like what you are doing, poof there goes a sub. It's why Blizz suddenly added some RP items a couple years back, they lost almost 2 mil at once and decided to listen to their players for a change.
Edit: there is only one company that's actually delivered on their promise of fast efficient fun content and that's Trion, the makers of Rift.
Edit 2.0: When i say a store should sell everything i don't mean any other content other then major expansions, being cut off from parts of the world or from dungeons because you aren't buying tiny portions of the game is as uncool as selling end game gear in the store.
games built for longevity, not instant gratification get them out the door sell as many boxes as possible and fix the rest later games. in other words, I probably need to find a new hobby.
You probably do.
With so many games out there, it is hard to expect a player stick to the same one year after year.
a good community(possibly the most important, F2P MMOs have TERRIBLE communities)
not having to pay for major patches
Playing Nothing waiting for The secret world Played WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
It is not just the amount of money. If I sub to a game, i will feel guilty if i don't play and it is a hassle to sub & unsub all the time.
That is why, except WOW (and i am subbing now only because i am getting D3), i probably will never play another sub-based MMO. There are too many other games (SP & MMOs) that you can get in and out fast without commitment.
Take DCUO. It is fun for a while .. i may even go back later. But having no hassle to manage sub, it is much easier for me to get into the game.
A complete game, not one chopped up and parceled out in cash shop items. FREE updates and expansion packs.
This is trend lately to double and triple dip is getting out of hand. This is the reason I have not been playing my TSW closed beta. I just don't have any interest in a game that triple dips. Too many of them do so today.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
This is trend lately to double and triple dip is getting out of hand. This is the reason I have not been playing my TSW closed beta. I just don't have any interest in a game that triple dips. Too many of them do so today.
Not the F2P ones .. those "zero" dip into my wallet.
Originally posted by Dragonantis Very regular updates and patches.Multiple community events.Fast and efficient customer service.
Along with the OP I have to agree to these being a necessity to get me to pay a subscription. I think Rothbard hit the nail on the head with:
Originally posted by rothbard I'd gladly pay a sub for a world. It's the box fee that needs to go, not the sub. Paying sub = access to world. Free client. Does this negate the whole "I want all the 'content' I bought" meme?
Why should we have to pay a box fee if we can't even play the game without paying other fees on top of that?
~Yeah, I'd be playing EVE right now if the community wasn't a mongol horde of dickpunchers. If any game can come out with the sheer amount of options it has, but with a community I can actually gel with, I'd pay them what they ask for.
You should come to CVA.
Originally posted by rojo6934
what justifies a subscription fee in my mind?
perhaps a celphone contract. Definitely not a game. Charge me for the box and if you want more money then make big expansions (not cow milking dlc).
Funny, cellphone contracts usually cost a LOT more for very little. I've seen like $50 a month contracts, ridiculous.
I pay freaking $100 a year and that's probably as cheap as it gets with phones... and all I get is being able to call people.
I have no problem with dropping down $50-60 to get the game, to me the initial payment is to help pay back some of the money used to build the game. After that, I have no problem paying $15 a month to play the game, as long as there are updates to the game, maby some new content doesnt have to be a huge patch. I will pay $20-30 for an expansion, as long as it adds at least half the original maps size with a bunch of content, which should happen at least once a year. This would be the extream I would pay.
I refuse to play games that nickle and dime you for content anymore. Cause you end up paying more.
Is merely keeping the server open and spending a buck or two on the bandwidth enough, or do you demand more for your $10-$15 a month?
In my opinion, paying a subscription fee should entitle the MMO customer to expect at minimum the following:
(1) Frequent, regular bug-fixing and exploit-patching
Any product that you purchase, which is subsequently discovered to be broken or not functioning as expected, should be fixed whether there is a sub fee or not.
(2) Competent, active GMs
(3) A game that's in a fully working condition to play, and which fufills the promises made by advertising (or at the least, has the reasonable expectation of fulfilling those not currently delivered in the near future)
Any product that is purchased must fulfill advertised promises, or face player censure and/or legal action whether or not there is a sub fee involved.
(4) An active, responsive community team
I think paying subscribers should also reasonably expect at least some of:
(5) Access to all the content in the game without further payment
Only if this is advertised as a benefit of subscription. A consumer never has the right to expect more than the merchant has promised as part of the product.
(6) An expectation that the game will continue to be developed and expanded, and for that direction to be communicated
(7) Some level of input or interaction with the Dev team as to the future direction of the game.
I disagree with this. It is nice, but not something that a player should expect.
(8) Proper game documentation and tutorials
What are your thoughts? Which subscription MMOs actually deliver to your expectations for a subscription? Should subbed MMOs which don't deliver go F2P or should they raise their game, so to speak?
Responses above.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Is merely keeping the server open and spending a buck or two on the bandwidth enough, or do you demand more for your $10-$15 a month?
In my opinion, paying a subscription fee should entitle the MMO customer to expect at minimum the following:
(1) Frequent, regular bug-fixing and exploit-patching
(2) Competent, active GMs
(3) A game that's in a fully working condition to play, and which fufills the promises made by advertising (or at the least, has the reasonable expectation of fulfilling those not currently delivered in the near future)
(4) An active, responsive community team
I think paying subscribers should also reasonably expect at least some of:
(5) Access to all the content in the game without further payment
(6) An expectation that the game will continue to be developed and expanded, and for that direction to be communicated
(7) Some level of input or interaction with the Dev team as to the future direction of the game.
(8) Proper game documentation and tutorials
What are your thoughts? Which subscription MMOs actually deliver to your expectations for a subscription? Should subbed MMOs which don't deliver go F2P or should they raise their game, so to speak?
All you said should be included in the box price. Bandwidth costs so little nowadays, its neglible.
Today, if a MMO charges for a sub, I would expect all the above plus:
- a full blown expansion each year with loads of content, available for free to subscribes who already paid enough in sub costs. i.e. if someone played 6 months paying 15$/mo, he will get it for free (value of 60$ game + 50% more for other costs, but if he played only 3 months with a sub, hell have to pay half the price and so on.
- constant updates with new content, instances, small zones, throughout the year, free for all.
Any additional revenue can be obtained with a fluff based cash shop.
I haven't found a MMO in a long time that I felt was worth a monthly sub....The reason why I like f2p games is I can come and go as I like without the obilgation.......THere are just too many games out there now to justify playing only one and spending extra for it.
A monthly Sub now a days is not justifiable in my book unless I'm renting a physical item from the developer that I'll be forced to return once I cancel my sub fee.
Games are starting to prove that a sub fee is not needed to provide a decent game, infact some games are in beta and provide a better game then most that are relased and charge a sub fee. The standards of the MMO market is starting to change. Those who think it is needed for a developer to provide a quality game are mistaken and need to start questioning what their monthly payment is actually providing them with the current games they are sub'ing.
It seems to me a lot of people are accepting a monthly sub charge to justify the years that it wasn't needed in the past with all the money previous developers milked out of the players.
I like systems such as LoL's cash shop in which you can earn the in game currency to purchase items or use cash but none of the items are needed to compete. Same with the Guild Wars 2 system, purchase the box and it has an optional cash shop that is not required for you to use it in order to compete within any part of the game play.
An mmoRPG that makes me actually feel like I did when I played EQ, Ultima, Asheron's Call, and Dark Age of Camelot. If the mmo makes me feel immersed, that I have actually gone to a fantasy world that matters to the community and to itself, then I will pay a fee. Show me a game where the same races and classes are beating each other up over a flag and Im gone.
Paying a fee for video games that pose as mmorpgs, is a joke. I'm ont paying for Huttbal, or some cut and paste race and class instanced pvp in GW2, or some watered down version of realm warfare in Rift where the same classes and races are still beating each other up - that's laziness in a nutshell and games like this might work for P** Smoker Pete who still lives at home, but for the rest of us, we deserve more. Hell, P** Smoker Pete deserves more, he's just too shot to know it.
perhaps a celphone contract. Definitely not a game. Charge me for the box and if you want more money then make big expansions (not cow milking dlc).
Funny, cellphone contracts usually cost a LOT more for very little. I've seen like $50 a month contracts, ridiculous.
I pay freaking $100 a year and that's probably as cheap as it gets with phones... and all I get is being able to call people.
i do agree with you that they (celphone services) should be cheaper and give a lot more service. But a comunication service is worth more than game time which is not a service (devs want games to become a monthly subscription service as the standard model and thats wrong).
Its my opinion so i stick to free games, or even buy sub based games to play the free month only then throw them under the bed. Thats about it
Comments
A game only needs to keep my interest for 31 days to get my sub fee...according to OPs list...then only thing that matters to me is 3..the rest not an issue..as Im pretty sure im going to be on off to another game before day 60 comes by. Too many good games on the market these days to worry about finding " The One". Im happily playing them all. P2P, B2P, F2P, Freemium means nothing to me..ill get to them all in time.
Example: The day I bought Tera, I preordered TSW and signed up for MWO's CBT. Scatterbrained..yah a ilittle. My biggest complaint about this life is that there isnt enough me to play all the games I want to play
. I so wish I was Jamie Maddrox at times...
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
games built for longevity, not instant gratification get them out the door sell as many boxes as possible and fix the rest later games. in other words, I probably need to find a new hobby.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I Think that the best model for games would be a freemium model that had a lower sub fee then the standard old $15 with a store that sells everything accept gear for characters if the game is a gear treadmill game. The cost should be more along the lines of $8 especially since the economy is the way it is. Even netflix and hulu only cost that amount per month to use their media. The $15 a month thing was a nice starter, it was during a time before the housing crash and the banks destroyed many people's incomes and the $8 would still give the game a nice even stream of revenue this with a store would give the game titles large chunks of revenue in the midst of the steady sub.
And that's all if you wanted to keep a sub, but the F2P models have all shown us time and time again the the sub is no longer necessary nor is it as profitable as the F2P model is because if customers don't like what you are doing, poof there goes a sub. It's why Blizz suddenly added some RP items a couple years back, they lost almost 2 mil at once and decided to listen to their players for a change.
Edit: there is only one company that's actually delivered on their promise of fast efficient fun content and that's Trion, the makers of Rift.
Edit 2.0: When i say a store should sell everything i don't mean any other content other then major expansions, being cut off from parts of the world or from dungeons because you aren't buying tiny portions of the game is as uncool as selling end game gear in the store.
You probably do.
With so many games out there, it is hard to expect a player stick to the same one year after year.
good content.
devs that listen to the players
compitent customer support
a good community(possibly the most important, F2P MMOs have TERRIBLE communities)
not having to pay for major patches
Playing
Nothing
waiting for
The secret world
Played
WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
It is not just the amount of money. If I sub to a game, i will feel guilty if i don't play and it is a hassle to sub & unsub all the time.
That is why, except WOW (and i am subbing now only because i am getting D3), i probably will never play another sub-based MMO. There are too many other games (SP & MMOs) that you can get in and out fast without commitment.
Take DCUO. It is fun for a while .. i may even go back later. But having no hassle to manage sub, it is much easier for me to get into the game.
If I enjoy playing the game, it's worth a sub.
A complete game, not one chopped up and parceled out in cash shop items. FREE updates and expansion packs.
This is trend lately to double and triple dip is getting out of hand. This is the reason I have not been playing my TSW closed beta. I just don't have any interest in a game that triple dips. Too many of them do so today.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Not the F2P ones .. those "zero" dip into my wallet.
Simple:
Constant development with remarkable results at a decent rate
Customer service as it should be
Along with the OP I have to agree to these being a necessity to get me to pay a subscription. I think Rothbard hit the nail on the head with:
Why should we have to pay a box fee if we can't even play the game without paying other fees on top of that?
Not much, not against p2p, but i've been finding some ftp games im enjoying lately.
Wanting to play it. If I want to play, I'll pay. So, good games usually get my money once in a while.
Agreed with a few posters here about the box price. I like how EVE has a rather cheap box price.
what justifies a subscription fee in my mind?
perhaps a celphone contract. Definitely not a game. Charge me for the box and if you want more money then make big expansions (not cow milking dlc).
You should come to CVA.
Funny, cellphone contracts usually cost a LOT more for very little. I've seen like $50 a month contracts, ridiculous.
I pay freaking $100 a year and that's probably as cheap as it gets with phones... and all I get is being able to call people.
I have no problem with dropping down $50-60 to get the game, to me the initial payment is to help pay back some of the money used to build the game. After that, I have no problem paying $15 a month to play the game, as long as there are updates to the game, maby some new content doesnt have to be a huge patch. I will pay $20-30 for an expansion, as long as it adds at least half the original maps size with a bunch of content, which should happen at least once a year. This would be the extream I would pay.
I refuse to play games that nickle and dime you for content anymore. Cause you end up paying more.
Responses above.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Server maintenance + additional content + customer support + bug squashing + free candy (optional)
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
All you said should be included in the box price. Bandwidth costs so little nowadays, its neglible.
Today, if a MMO charges for a sub, I would expect all the above plus:
- a full blown expansion each year with loads of content, available for free to subscribes who already paid enough in sub costs. i.e. if someone played 6 months paying 15$/mo, he will get it for free (value of 60$ game + 50% more for other costs, but if he played only 3 months with a sub, hell have to pay half the price and so on.
- constant updates with new content, instances, small zones, throughout the year, free for all.
Any additional revenue can be obtained with a fluff based cash shop.
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570
if im hooked. then my money is yours. simple as that.
and NO, im not grinding thru level 20 to see if I get hooked....'cause it ain't happenin' if the story doesn't catch me at the first click.
I haven't found a MMO in a long time that I felt was worth a monthly sub....The reason why I like f2p games is I can come and go as I like without the obilgation.......THere are just too many games out there now to justify playing only one and spending extra for it.
What Justifies a subscription fee in my mind?
A monthly Sub now a days is not justifiable in my book unless I'm renting a physical item from the developer that I'll be forced to return once I cancel my sub fee.
Games are starting to prove that a sub fee is not needed to provide a decent game, infact some games are in beta and provide a better game then most that are relased and charge a sub fee. The standards of the MMO market is starting to change. Those who think it is needed for a developer to provide a quality game are mistaken and need to start questioning what their monthly payment is actually providing them with the current games they are sub'ing.
It seems to me a lot of people are accepting a monthly sub charge to justify the years that it wasn't needed in the past with all the money previous developers milked out of the players.
I like systems such as LoL's cash shop in which you can earn the in game currency to purchase items or use cash but none of the items are needed to compete. Same with the Guild Wars 2 system, purchase the box and it has an optional cash shop that is not required for you to use it in order to compete within any part of the game play.
An mmoRPG that makes me actually feel like I did when I played EQ, Ultima, Asheron's Call, and Dark Age of Camelot. If the mmo makes me feel immersed, that I have actually gone to a fantasy world that matters to the community and to itself, then I will pay a fee. Show me a game where the same races and classes are beating each other up over a flag and Im gone.
Paying a fee for video games that pose as mmorpgs, is a joke. I'm ont paying for Huttbal, or some cut and paste race and class instanced pvp in GW2, or some watered down version of realm warfare in Rift where the same classes and races are still beating each other up - that's laziness in a nutshell and games like this might work for P** Smoker Pete who still lives at home, but for the rest of us, we deserve more. Hell, P** Smoker Pete deserves more, he's just too shot to know it.
/My 2 cents
i do agree with you that they (celphone services) should be cheaper and give a lot more service. But a comunication service is worth more than game time which is not a service (devs want games to become a monthly subscription service as the standard model and thats wrong).
Its my opinion so i stick to free games, or even buy sub based games to play the free month only then throw them under the bed. Thats about it
A time machine?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture