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Why do they ignore the primary strengths of an MMORPG?

NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

 

 

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"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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  • GrinnzGrinnz Utica, NYPosts: 310Member Uncommon

    To many single play companies jumping into the MMO market, and some how thinks single play aspects can pass well over to the MMO stage. Final Fantasy, SWTOR are good examples, and can't wait for ESO to fail.....

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  • ConnmacartConnmacart OsloPosts: 681Member Uncommon

    Because all of those are subjective strengths. To me those strengths can also be weaknesses I want out of my MMO

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,055Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

     

     

    Exactly

    MMOs have been devolving into co op single player games since Ultima Online.

    Why?

    Lazyness ? Lack of skilled programmers ? ... I dont know...

    image

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    Because of the inherent contradiction in the genre: the namesake of massive multiplayer gameplay versus the limitations of netcode and the fact that most engines can't handle very large numbers of players in one spot.

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  • FangrimFangrim PrestonPosts: 589Member Common
    Originally posted by Alphamojo

    To many single play companies jumping into the MMO market, and some how thinks single play aspects can pass well over to the MMO stage. Final Fantasy, SWTOR are good examples, and can't wait for ESO to fail.....

    Why would you want ESO to fail?Is it because you have posted somewhere that it will and don't want to be wrong?Is it because you liked the single player ES games and are frightened it could be a success and no other single player versions will be made?Or do the ...... at the end mean you don't really mean it?

    Gnome Wankers two.After the events of 18/07/2015 i fucking hate anyone that has anything to do with skyforge
    image

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Alphamojo

    To many single play companies jumping into the MMO market, and some how thinks single play aspects can pass well over to the MMO stage. Final Fantasy, SWTOR are good examples, and can't wait for ESO to fail.....

    Which Final Fantasy mmo were you playing that focused on single player?

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Because story is a great way to introduce the player to the game world and a nice way to motivate people. People love a good story.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Instanced PvP tickles the competitive crowd because you can affect the outcome. The smaller the match is the more effect you can have on the outcome. People like to know they matter whereas in a zerg your average player does not matter. Smaller group sizes also makes sense because smaller groups are closer to what we form in real life too. Its not a coincidence that a number of games have adopted the party size of 4-6 players. Its not completely arbirary you know.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    Instances can be custom built around a specific number of characters of specific level (=power). That makes it possible for the developer to make the content challenging. And because it is separate, you can use much more profound effects in it without the fear of breaking or disrupting the gameplay of others in the open world. And speaking of disrupting someone's gameplay, other players cannot disrupt yours by ninjalooting, killstealing, PK or other methods of griefing. The pros far outweigh the cons.

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

    Because they make sense. The objective is not to fulfill someone's checklist of what MMORPG should or shouldn't have. Its about making a fun game.

     

     

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Because of the inherent contradiction in the genre: the namesake of massive multiplayer gameplay versus the limitations of netcode and the fact that most engines can't handle very large numbers of players in one spot.

     

    That's horse crap.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • bleyzwunbleyzwun West Orange, NJPosts: 1,100Member Common
    Originally posted by tollbooth
    Originally posted by Alphamojo

    To many single play companies jumping into the MMO market, and some how thinks single play aspects can pass well over to the MMO stage. Final Fantasy, SWTOR are good examples, and can't wait for ESO to fail.....

    Which Final Fantasy mmo were you playing that focused on single player?

    LOL... I remember my FFXI days.  I think you soloed to 10 or something and that was the end of it, unless you unlocked Beastmaster.  

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    Because the MMO genre has been invaded by way too many single rpg gamers.. IMO, WoW opened the door for all those to come flooding in and play a co-op / single linear game..  The market was just too big to ignore..  Trust me, if the devs could find a way to tap into your Zynga Farmville market with a lame subscription based MMO, they would..  Money talks..

  • BlackbrrdBlackbrrd KongsbergPosts: 811Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Because story is a great way to introduce the player to the game world and a nice way to motivate people. People love a good story.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Instanced PvP tickles the competitive crowd because you can affect the outcome. The smaller the match is the more effect you can have on the outcome. People like to know they matter whereas in a zerg your average player does not matter. Smaller group sizes also makes sense because smaller groups are closer to what we form in real life too. Its not a coincidence that a number of games have adopted the party size of 4-6 players. Its not completely arbirary you know.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    Instances can be custom built around a specific number of characters of specific level (=power). That makes it possible for the developer to make the content challenging. And because it is separate, you can use much more profound effects in it without the fear of breaking or disrupting the gameplay of others in the open world. And speaking of disrupting someone's gameplay, other players cannot disrupt yours by ninjalooting, killstealing, PK or other methods of griefing. The pros far outweigh the cons.

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

    Because they make sense. The objective is not to fulfill someone's checklist of what MMORPG should or shouldn't have. Its about making a fun game.

    I really like the answers in green.

    Another motivation to put the story into a mmorpg is because the company doesn't dare to make a regular rpg because of piracy issues. I think they could have done it the way Diablo 3 has done it as well though. I way prefer to play an mmorpg with buddies than a singleplayer rpg, even if it's story based. A cooperative rpg would also fit what I am looking for. At the same time, look at all the flack Diablo 3 got because it required internet connection...

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

     

     

    I sympathisize with your statement but do not believe the old days were any better.  Other then Asherons Call Most MMO's were all about camping in a few select spots in the same group pulling mobs ad-naseum.  I do not ever want to see a return to that style of gameplay ever again.  Forced grouping as the only sole means to progress is the reason why MMO's in their early days were considered successful with 100K subs.  100K subs is a death knell for a AAA release now a days.  I love the way that GW2 and TESO do to grouping, it doesnt force you to it but actually acenuates the mechanic artificially.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    There are so many design decisions that I just don't understand because it's not what I want and I can't see any other view than my own. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Because it's easier to shape the content and geometry of a world than to shape its players.

  • karmathkarmath Posts: 829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Because of the inherent contradiction in the genre: the namesake of massive multiplayer gameplay versus the limitations of netcode and the fact that most engines can't handle very large numbers of players in one spot.

    lol wut? Vanilla WoW even had massive open world fights, remember Tarren Mill vs. Southshore? On my server hundreds if not a thousand total players would be at it all day everyday, and that was a themepark game not designed for it in the first place and was way back in 2004.

    I dont even need to mention sanbox titles/features of past.

    It's only because fools keep buying rubbish games that they can get away with crap design and crap code. Why sell customers gold when their lining up in the millions to buy coal at gold prices? 

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,457Member Uncommon

    To the OP...

    I agree the genre is not stale,it is the many developers that jump on the bandwagon to make a quick buck.They al ltry to make a generic Wow copy ,not in the sense of looking like Wow but in the sense of it's core mechanics and design.Linear questing /dailies and the EQ idea of dungeon looting.I played and enjoyed FFXI,they did not cater to or copy any of these games,they made their own game.

    The problem now is that Wow and all those games they made for 30mil now cost 100 mil to make and they try to make it for 30 mil ,so make tons of weak changes.

    I will assume we know a bit about making games so....

    An example ...Instances.it is a LOT simpler to create a simple box and turn it into  a map.it takes a LOT more effort to create a game world and have each zone tie into each other.An instance does not have to have a theme or even match the game world,just create a boss,some desired loot and people play it just becuase they want that loot.

    As for pvp,it jjust does NOT work to have the MASSIVE scale,you have to cut lots of corners to make that work.Personally i don't like anything pvp in a rpg,i with others played 6/7/8+ years in FFXI with no pvp,it is not needed to have a good game.

    Tacking on other  game ideas can be good but it can also be really bad.I prefer a game that says ,here is our game, play it if you like it but don't expect us to turn it into WOW.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member
    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    I sympathisize with your statement but do not believe the old days were any better.  Other then Asherons Call Most MMO's were all about camping in a few select spots in the same group pulling mobs ad-naseum.  I do not ever want to see a return to that style of gameplay ever again.  Forced grouping as the only sole means to progress is the reason why MMO's in their early days were considered successful with 100K subs.  100K subs is a death knell for a AAA release now a days.  I love the way that GW2 and TESO do to grouping, it doesnt force you to it but actually acenuates the mechanic artificially.

    I guess the lesson here is just because some early entrys in the genre did a poor job of developing the concepts and opportunities of persistant online worlds doesn't mean one should completely discard them and fall back to single-player designs.

    GW2 is on the right track in some regards, but might still be too small in scope. ESO is currently to much marketing BS and too little actual information to make any valid assessment.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

    1. You're right.

    2. The gamers demand something else, otherwise people would play Lineage 2, not WoW.

     

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member


    Originally posted by nilden
    ... single player story with a bunch of cutscences ... instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? ... private little instances?

     
    That's what sells. Millions of people buy these games.

    There's no need to develop MMORPGs for MMORPG fans, the MMORPG fans buy every new AAA MMO anyway.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,963Member Uncommon

    Lack of good programmers.

    Bandwith problems.

    The majority of players have cheap $400 laptops to play on.

    Devs think because WoW went for being a lobby game,  thats what the players want.

     

    Ok, so I covered everything !

  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Because story is a great way to introduce the player to the game world and a nice way to motivate people. People love a good story.

    Yet stories have been told in the first MMO's aswell, it's just the lazy people that got to know WoW and "follow the arrow/shining exlamation mark to do stuff" EQ fex. has a great story and it wasn't voiced with cinematic cutscenes, yet the story was told.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Instanced PvP tickles the competitive crowd because you can affect the outcome. The smaller the match is the more effect you can have on the outcome. People like to know they matter whereas in a zerg your average player does not matter. Smaller group sizes also makes sense because smaller groups are closer to what we form in real life too. Its not a coincidence that a number of games have adopted the party size of 4-6 players. Its not completely arbirary you know.

    This also leads to alot of whining about overpowered & underpowered classes because of some players being better than others mainly, thus nerfing and buffing of classes beyond reasoning because of the vocal few who do "arena" type e-peen matches to post on youtube.. who cares.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    Instances can be custom built around a specific number of characters of specific level (=power). That makes it possible for the developer to make the content challenging. And because it is separate, you can use much more profound effects in it without the fear of breaking or disrupting the gameplay of others in the open world. And speaking of disrupting someone's gameplay, other players cannot disrupt yours by ninjalooting, killstealing, PK or other methods of griefing. The pros far outweigh the cons

    This i can agree on with you, yet the persistant world shouldn't be ignored by instances. More so should instances be the "after thought" not the primary focus of "happenings"

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

    Because they make sense. The objective is not to fulfill someone's checklist of what MMORPG should or shouldn't have. Its about making a fun game.

    Then they should make an SRPG with co-op & multiplayer lobby and not even try to pass it off as an MMORPG, if that's what they are honestly doing, because 5-10 players isn't MASSIVE.

     

     

     

    Currently playing: -

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  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Because story is a great way to introduce the player to the game world and a nice way to motivate people. People love a good story.

    True but stories end, and having a story end does not make for a good subscription model. That plus why not let players experience their own story by playing the game and implement systems to support that.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Instanced PvP tickles the competitive crowd because you can affect the outcome. The smaller the match is the more effect you can have on the outcome. People like to know they matter whereas in a zerg your average player does not matter. Smaller group sizes also makes sense because smaller groups are closer to what we form in real life too. Its not a coincidence that a number of games have adopted the party size of 4-6 players. Its not completely arbirary you know.

    So have 5v5 or group vs group arena pvp and open world siege/keep/castle massive battle pvp. 10 on 10 capture the flag is a huge waste of pvp potential in an MMORPG if you neglect to have siege warfare.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    Instances can be custom built around a specific number of characters of specific level (=power). That makes it possible for the developer to make the content challenging. And because it is separate, you can use much more profound effects in it without the fear of breaking or disrupting the gameplay of others in the open world. And speaking of disrupting someone's gameplay, other players cannot disrupt yours by ninjalooting, killstealing, PK or other methods of griefing. The pros far outweigh the cons.

    Instancing was designed to combat overcrowding but ended up letting devs make small hallway dungeons and is not needed with enough public dungeons and open world content. Plus all it ends up being is a crappy lobby where people stand there waiting for the queue to pop. If everyone can hit the same mob and everyone gets loot and xp there is no ninjalooting or killstealing.

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

    Because they make sense. The objective is not to fulfill someone's checklist of what MMORPG should or shouldn't have. Its about making a fun game.

    You can make an MMORPG fun without having to resort to making it more single player, linear story driven, with private little instances and trying to kill off the massivly multiplayer part. I feel like it's detrimental to the game and genre as a whole when everyone is just going about there business and playing like it might as well be a single player game with optional co-op.

     

     

     

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,618Member Uncommon

    Instancing prevents boss stealing but I do miss the open world days.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • EmrendilEmrendil TirionPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

     

     

    At least Arenanet is trying to change things with Guild Wars 2.

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member
    Originally posted by Emrendil
    Originally posted by nilden

    Why when a MMORPG has so much it could do with it's world and systems does it have to have stuff tacked on from other genres?

    Why would they focus on a single player story with a bunch of cutscences in an MMORPG? When the focus should be on grouping with other people.

    Why would they have instanced pvp with smaller team numbers than FPS? When you could have open world pvp with contested and controlled territory and massive numbers of people.

    Why on earth would they ignore the primary strengths of an open persistant virtual world and make everything private little instances?

    There are so many design decisions that just seem counter to the entire purpose of making a MMORPG.

     

     

    At least Arenanet is trying to change things with Guild Wars 2.


    LOL, didn't take long, hehe.

    Single player personal story? Check.

    Cutscenes? Check.

    Instanced small-team PvP? Check.

    Private little dungeons? Check.

    Trying to change things? Nope. :)

     

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

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