As opposed to the worse way of randomly grouping people together and letting the egotistical rage fly (ie battlegrounds and instances)
I don't really see how EQ's way was worse.... Too many players treat today's games as solo and complain when they hit max level within the first month & the lack of attachment to the game..
I already told you that WoW wasn't the best example either... and neither are BGs or Instances, which are only evolutions of the EQ model. And I don't talk about today's players and games, neither UO nor AC1 had either instances or BGs, or forced grouping, yet those two games had some of the best communities I had the pleasure to be part of since I started playing multiplayer games ages ago. Try to imagine that... people were not forced to group, ever, but they did it regularly, FOR FUN. That builds communities, unlike forcing people to go into dungeons to bash mobs because there's no other way to progress and actually nothing else to do.
I consider the current method of letting players solo virtually everyone instead or requiring a group a complete 180 from EQ's method. So i do not consider it a deevolution from EQ. And EQ wasn't all about the endgame, post WoW it is completely opposite.
So in essence what you think are a result of the continued EQ model I consider to be complete opposites.
Well, I will only mention the worse ones then... gear grind based raid end game and forced grouping.
That's pretty much why I prefered games like UO and AC1 back then. No matter if you were alone online at 3am or with tons of people at prime time, you could progress efficiently and even at high level, have a chance to get equipment to improve your character.
Actually, to make it even shorter... the worst thing EQ introduced is that notion of "end game" in a MMORPG.
Sorry I have to disagree here.. I wouldn't call EQ a gear grind based raid end game.. When my character was old enough to go into ToV.. I did so with NO "raid" gear so to speak.. In fact I found most of my power came from spells, not gear.. Raiding in EQ was so much more social then any game I've played since.. I hate limits..
However to get back to the OP.. I too would like to see a hybrid appoach between WoW and EQ.. Lets take East Commons for example.. I think ALL the wondering mobs in the zone should be soloable by any class.. However, I would love to see "camp" locations such as Orc Camp 1 be filled with elite mobs that require a group and strategy to defeat.. I would like to see less instancing and more open world dungeon crawls.. Sure EQ had issues with "named" mobs being farmed or KS or whatnot, but there are alternatives to get around that.. Maybe allow trigger instancing like what SWTOR does.. I don't like seeing ! or ? over everyones head.. It is just too hand holding for me.. I miss true "faction" perks and consequences.. You can't be friends with EVERYONE.. pick and choose
EQ set in motion the de-sandboxing of the MMORPG, which Ultima Online had set up... has led to a Raid/Factional mentality in most games, which WoW jut ran with and polished.
MMORPG were sandboxes first and 'themeparks' second, EQ reversed that trend and set back the genre. What we are left with is endless streams of unimaginative rehashes of a commercial successful formula, which is devoid of any real worth or depth.
Thankfully it would apear that Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World are finally breaking that EQ style of play and if these proove commercially successful we will being to see orignal titles again and not the EQ clones we have had to put up with for a decade!!
One thing About EQ that i really havent seen in other games is class roles.Im not talking about tank/healer/dps i mean other roles like puller/snarer/mezzer things of that nature that brought life to all classes.That i miss tremendously.
UO had a much better core design. EQ was the start of the down fall of mmos holy trinity, static group design, theme park from zone to zone to zone, and I assume the crafting was also level and zone base.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd love to see a graphically updated Asherons Call. I didn't play it back in it's prime, or for very long last year due to the lack of players/top heavy playerbase. Beyond that I really liked it though.
Everquest was a great game, but also started the decay of the genre before WoW ever launched. EQ is to blame for gear becoming outdated instantly by a new expansion, really became a problem from PoP onwards.
I can agree with this to a point.
And also is to blame for instances (segregating players from each other) in LDoN. And the destruction of player run business and interaction with the introduction of The Bazaar, which completely destroyed the nomadic market of the commonlands tunnel.ce
First,EQ was not the first to introduce instanced dungeons,LDON was not the first of it type,the realm online and then AO had instances before EQ.Yes i liked to trade in the commonlands but i also liked the bazaar,it's down to each person.You may not of liked it but don't speak for everyone else please.
WoW just took those bad ideas and ran with it, the devs were admitted EQ addicts. I'd say EQ is the best and worst thing to happen to mmos.
EQ was a great game and a pioneer,it was the firs mainstreamt 3d mmo as well.
Personally, I think Nexus: Kingdom of the Winds was the best thing to happen to mmos. For those that have heard of it and or played it back before it became a fashion show.
So yes EQ1 was a moment in time along with WOW which was the last major MMO moment.
One thing About EQ that i really havent seen in other games is class roles.Im not talking about tank/healer/dps i mean other roles like puller/snarer/mezzer things of that nature that brought life to all classes.That i miss tremendously.
Vanguard has the same,every class has a certain role,it's very similar to EQ,when it goes FTP this summer many people who played EQ but have never played Vanguard are in for a supprise.
The Treadmill, XP Loss, Hell Levels, Corpse Runs, Gear Grind, /y Spawn Check, /y LFG.....
Not the best things
Best thing about EQ? You could get drunk in it.
Treadmill - Maybe you treated it as such. but it was much less than the ratrace to max level then brick wall style content of current games
XP Loss - Made you pay attention, kept you on top of your game, if you died repeatedly then try to analyze what you did wrong & fix it. It teaches you that you can't just apply brute force to a problem and fix it (ie reduced zerging) and besides make friends with a cleric.
Hell levels - They smoothed those out & got rid of those LONG ago
Corpse Runs - Again consequences for dieing, Made you play at the top of your game and judge risk, and if you had problems get a necro to summon your corpse
Gear Grind - You know In current games you replace your gear much more quickly than in EQ. And there wasn't always a best gear set as i mentioned. If your playing a game and obsessed with gear thats your problem.
Spawn Checks - You mean the game world actually felt alive because the mob wasn't always up when you demanded it to be? It help keep the world from feeling hallow.
LFG - Thats what friends and Guilds are for.
This is why i have played Vanguard for the last five years,it still holds true to the old style of MMO gaming.
I'm agreeing with you up to a point OP, but Ultima Online was the one that really got the ball rolling in the right direction.
Not really,it was a great game but it was not a 3d mmo,that first mainstream MMO goes to EQ,that's what got the ball rolling.Every major mmo since has been a 3d MMO.
I'm agreeing with you up to a point OP, but Ultima Online was the one that really got the ball rolling in the right direction.
Not really,it was a great game but it was not a 3d mmo,that first mainstream MMO goes to EQ,that's what got the ball rolling.Every major mmo since has been a 3d MMO.
Sorry, but UO got released in Sept. 97 while EQ hit the shelves in March 1999... the first mainstream MMORPG is definitely UO.
Mainstream doesn't mean 3D.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I'm agreeing with you up to a point OP, but Ultima Online was the one that really got the ball rolling in the right direction.
Not really,it was a great game but it was not a 3d mmo,that first mainstream MMO goes to EQ,that's what got the ball rolling.Every major mmo since has been a 3d MMO.
Sorry, but UO got released in Sept. 97 while EQ hit the shelves in March 1999... the first mainstream MMORPG is definitely UO.
Mainstream doesn't mean 3D.
True, but I find that as a True mmorpg, EverQues won that over by a landslide, however I found UO's PvP fun and exciting I just could'nt get over the clunky controls and he 2d graphics of it , even D1 was better.
EverQuest was a awesome open world mmorpg and still is, but I really can't log back in because of the graphics and game play just feels dated now, it's sad really , man I want a EQ3 that has the same core of EQ 1, I still remember the commonlands tunnel for the bazaar , it was epic because it brought everyone together. The EQ community felt almost like a family, everyone was super polite and kind, everyone helped everyone which is something we are missing in todays MMO's, we NEED another EQ , but this time a EQ like the first one.
True, but I find that as a True mmorpg, EverQues won that over by a landslide, however I found UO's PvP fun and exciting I just could'nt get over the clunky controls and he 2d graphics of it , even D1 was better.
We can agree to disagree on the graphics since it's a matter of taste, and I must say I can't play UO anymore because of the 2.5D graphics (yes, UO is in 3D, but fixed camera isometric view, that's why we used to call it "2.5D").
But what makes EQ more a MMORPG than UO? Nothing. And one could argue that due to it's sandbox style, UO is way more a "RP" game than EQ. In EQ, you are stuck to a class, while in UO, you can be about everything you want to be thanks to the skill based character development. UO also has a huge world to explore, both over the ground and underground.
UO gave us total freedom, and EQ took it away by restricting players to classes. I have yet to understand how this could be the best thing to happen to MMOs...
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The OP never played FFXI ,i assume?Most complex combat system i have ever seen.
The sub class system made for the versatility other games could not match.
Several classes could be pullers in FFXI ,i have not played in awhile so i forget the class names but Summoner comes to mind as an oddball type of puller.There were various situations that called for different types of pulling in FFXI ,even a beastmaster had it's use as a puller.
The typical puller at lower levels were the Ranger and Thief,both using Ninja shadows to take a few hits,both could bind if needed and the Thief had the FLEE abvility that allowed him to speed away if the pull went bad.
The mobs also did some different things like a ranger mob would just stop and fire arrows at a distance.The puller had to make sure to run right past the camp to get the mob close enough to allow the tank to take control of it.
Some mobs would deaggro if you dragged them through water,they would basically lose your scent,so you had to keep them close.
Personally i never liked the way SOE grouped their mobs,into 3/6,if you pulled 3-6 in FFXI ,it was considered a terrible pull.Sometimes it was downright unrealsitic,fighting 24 or so goblins at once,i am pretty sure if realsitic ,i would ahve died several times to 20 mobs .FFXI realism suited me fine,1-2 mobs tops which was realistic.
I also never liked the cheap idea they called Body pulls and the way mobs vee line to characters that do nothing.Also SOE combat tends to be over fast,many mobs die in a very short time,FFXI leaned more towards strategy and timing.
I played a lot of the Everquest series,i found Eq2 a huge improvement but still lacked the depth of play i got from FFXI.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
One thing About EQ that i really havent seen in other games is class roles.Im not talking about tank/healer/dps i mean other roles like puller/snarer/mezzer things of that nature that brought life to all classes.That i miss tremendously.
I'm agreeing with you up to a point OP, but Ultima Online was the one that really got the ball rolling in the right direction.
Not really,it was a great game but it was not a 3d mmo,that first mainstream MMO goes to EQ,that's what got the ball rolling.Every major mmo since has been a 3d MMO.
Sorry, but UO got released in Sept. 97 while EQ hit the shelves in March 1999... the first mainstream MMORPG is definitely UO.
Mainstream doesn't mean 3D.
Well mainstream DOES mean DSL
Back in those days the majoirty were on 56k ,that si why MMOs were not mainstream.
Wow was the huge beneficiary of DSL affordability and Millions of new kids/gamers that would have never had the chance to play in 97/99.
MOST were getting DSL around 2003 right around the time FFXI was being released but it was not marketed at all over here.Matter of fact they were not even sure they were going to release it over here.They had good ties with SOE and had success on the playstation with their FFVII >> so they did it as a multi platyform game,the first ever to do it.
So that is what i call MAINSTREAM ,first the accessibility of DSL and then the multiplatform allowed EVERYONE to be able to play it.
What is scary ,is to think what if Wow was mulit platform,that game hit 65% of the total MMORPG market at it's peak lol and that without xbox or Playstation .Shows how far marketing can push a product,these were for the majority BRAND new gamers who had zero clue what Wow offered,yet they stilll bought it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Think Merdian 59 was before EQ and UO, and was 3D.....of course you may be young and was unaware of preceding MMO's....as far a graphical MMO's it may have been first if not the first.
However, AC IMO was bout the best of the 3 when it comes to UO, EQ, and AC in comparrsion. AC had so much freedom with character design, and gameplay, super huge open world, dungeons, although required loading were not instanced. Asheron's Call was by far the one of the greatest MMO's I ever had the experience of playing first run.
i think UO was the best thing to happen to MMORPGS. i remember the launch of EQ and whilst i was intruiged i just couldnt get over the awful 3d grpahics. UO didnt have good gprahics but its isomteric 2d view worked well for the times. I think EQ was the best thing to happen to mmos if you think wow is an awesome game since EQ inspired WOW almost completely and was the godfather of Themepark mmos.
EQ2 was such a terrible disapointment.
Its surprising how little i rated SWG bakc at its rlease after palying it for a few mnoths. But the sad thing is looking back its actually one of the better mmos ive played. At the time i tohguht it was pretty sucky.
Awful 3d graphics???
lets see.. i know counterstrike...
everquest
Now back in 99 they where both good looking games..
I'm agreeing with you up to a point OP, but Ultima Online was the one that really got the ball rolling in the right direction.
Not really,it was a great game but it was not a 3d mmo,that first mainstream MMO goes to EQ,that's what got the ball rolling.Every major mmo since has been a 3d MMO.
Sorry, but UO got released in Sept. 97 while EQ hit the shelves in March 1999... the first mainstream MMORPG is definitely UO.
Mainstream doesn't mean 3D.
Which part didn't you understand,let me say it again just so it's clear.
The first mainstream 3D mmo was EQ,do you understand when i say mainstream 3D?
If i would of said "the first mainstream MMO" without the 3D part in my sentance then you would have a point but i didn't,did i.
Perhaps you need to actually read a sentance properly.
Who said anything about mainstream meaning 3D lol.
Well, i'm not from UO or EQ's time, but i'd say the first mainstream mmo was WOW. By mainstream, i mean played by a large pool of people from different social status, jobs, etc, etc. I may be wrong, but UO, EQ and all other mmo's where mostly played by the RPG "nerds" from back then. WOW made mmorpg jump into the "spotlight" and the genre grew in great popularity from then.
In my AC1 guild, the majority of members didn't even have computer related jobs. There was even one guy in the police (and he still is nowadays, we are still in contact). So the "nerd" theory is... wacky, at the least.
Replace "nerd" with "above average people who had some culture and tech knowledge" and you'll be closer to the truth.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Comments
I consider the current method of letting players solo virtually everyone instead or requiring a group a complete 180 from EQ's method. So i do not consider it a deevolution from EQ. And EQ wasn't all about the endgame, post WoW it is completely opposite.
So in essence what you think are a result of the continued EQ model I consider to be complete opposites.
Sorry I have to disagree here.. I wouldn't call EQ a gear grind based raid end game.. When my character was old enough to go into ToV.. I did so with NO "raid" gear so to speak.. In fact I found most of my power came from spells, not gear.. Raiding in EQ was so much more social then any game I've played since.. I hate limits..
However to get back to the OP.. I too would like to see a hybrid appoach between WoW and EQ.. Lets take East Commons for example.. I think ALL the wondering mobs in the zone should be soloable by any class.. However, I would love to see "camp" locations such as Orc Camp 1 be filled with elite mobs that require a group and strategy to defeat.. I would like to see less instancing and more open world dungeon crawls.. Sure EQ had issues with "named" mobs being farmed or KS or whatnot, but there are alternatives to get around that.. Maybe allow trigger instancing like what SWTOR does.. I don't like seeing ! or ? over everyones head.. It is just too hand holding for me.. I miss true "faction" perks and consequences.. You can't be friends with EVERYONE.. pick and choose
You can't be serious, can you? EQ introduced the concept of level cap and end game to the genre, along with the raiding centric gameplay.
At this point, I will just agree to disagree and leave it at that. "It's hard to fill a cup that is already full" - Moat, Avatar.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Disagree 100%.
EQ set in motion the de-sandboxing of the MMORPG, which Ultima Online had set up... has led to a Raid/Factional mentality in most games, which WoW jut ran with and polished.
MMORPG were sandboxes first and 'themeparks' second, EQ reversed that trend and set back the genre. What we are left with is endless streams of unimaginative rehashes of a commercial successful formula, which is devoid of any real worth or depth.
Thankfully it would apear that Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World are finally breaking that EQ style of play and if these proove commercially successful we will being to see orignal titles again and not the EQ clones we have had to put up with for a decade!!
One thing About EQ that i really havent seen in other games is class roles.Im not talking about tank/healer/dps i mean other roles like puller/snarer/mezzer things of that nature that brought life to all classes.That i miss tremendously.
UO had a much better core design. EQ was the start of the down fall of mmos holy trinity, static group design, theme park from zone to zone to zone, and I assume the crafting was also level and zone base.
EA was the best thing to happen to MMOs
And perhaps one of the worst things to happen to virtual world style MMORPG's.
Was the start of the slippery slope downward to where these games have evolved (devolved?) today.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd love to see a graphically updated Asherons Call. I didn't play it back in it's prime, or for very long last year due to the lack of players/top heavy playerbase. Beyond that I really liked it though.
So yes EQ1 was a moment in time along with WOW which was the last major MMO moment.
Vanguard has the same,every class has a certain role,it's very similar to EQ,when it goes FTP this summer many people who played EQ but have never played Vanguard are in for a supprise.
This is why i have played Vanguard for the last five years,it still holds true to the old style of MMO gaming.
Not really,it was a great game but it was not a 3d mmo,that first mainstream MMO goes to EQ,that's what got the ball rolling.Every major mmo since has been a 3d MMO.
Sorry, but UO got released in Sept. 97 while EQ hit the shelves in March 1999... the first mainstream MMORPG is definitely UO.
Mainstream doesn't mean 3D.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
True, but I find that as a True mmorpg, EverQues won that over by a landslide, however I found UO's PvP fun and exciting I just could'nt get over the clunky controls and he 2d graphics of it , even D1 was better.
EverQuest was a awesome open world mmorpg and still is, but I really can't log back in because of the graphics and game play just feels dated now, it's sad really , man I want a EQ3 that has the same core of EQ 1, I still remember the commonlands tunnel for the bazaar , it was epic because it brought everyone together. The EQ community felt almost like a family, everyone was super polite and kind, everyone helped everyone which is something we are missing in todays MMO's, we NEED another EQ , but this time a EQ like the first one.
We can agree to disagree on the graphics since it's a matter of taste, and I must say I can't play UO anymore because of the 2.5D graphics (yes, UO is in 3D, but fixed camera isometric view, that's why we used to call it "2.5D").
But what makes EQ more a MMORPG than UO? Nothing. And one could argue that due to it's sandbox style, UO is way more a "RP" game than EQ. In EQ, you are stuck to a class, while in UO, you can be about everything you want to be thanks to the skill based character development. UO also has a huge world to explore, both over the ground and underground.
UO gave us total freedom, and EQ took it away by restricting players to classes. I have yet to understand how this could be the best thing to happen to MMOs...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The OP never played FFXI ,i assume?Most complex combat system i have ever seen.
The sub class system made for the versatility other games could not match.
Several classes could be pullers in FFXI ,i have not played in awhile so i forget the class names but Summoner comes to mind as an oddball type of puller.There were various situations that called for different types of pulling in FFXI ,even a beastmaster had it's use as a puller.
The typical puller at lower levels were the Ranger and Thief,both using Ninja shadows to take a few hits,both could bind if needed and the Thief had the FLEE abvility that allowed him to speed away if the pull went bad.
The mobs also did some different things like a ranger mob would just stop and fire arrows at a distance.The puller had to make sure to run right past the camp to get the mob close enough to allow the tank to take control of it.
Some mobs would deaggro if you dragged them through water,they would basically lose your scent,so you had to keep them close.
Personally i never liked the way SOE grouped their mobs,into 3/6,if you pulled 3-6 in FFXI ,it was considered a terrible pull.Sometimes it was downright unrealsitic,fighting 24 or so goblins at once,i am pretty sure if realsitic ,i would ahve died several times to 20 mobs .FFXI realism suited me fine,1-2 mobs tops which was realistic.
I also never liked the cheap idea they called Body pulls and the way mobs vee line to characters that do nothing.Also SOE combat tends to be over fast,many mobs die in a very short time,FFXI leaned more towards strategy and timing.
I played a lot of the Everquest series,i found Eq2 a huge improvement but still lacked the depth of play i got from FFXI.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Me too.
Well mainstream DOES mean DSL
Back in those days the majoirty were on 56k ,that si why MMOs were not mainstream.
Wow was the huge beneficiary of DSL affordability and Millions of new kids/gamers that would have never had the chance to play in 97/99.
MOST were getting DSL around 2003 right around the time FFXI was being released but it was not marketed at all over here.Matter of fact they were not even sure they were going to release it over here.They had good ties with SOE and had success on the playstation with their FFVII >> so they did it as a multi platyform game,the first ever to do it.
So that is what i call MAINSTREAM ,first the accessibility of DSL and then the multiplatform allowed EVERYONE to be able to play it.
What is scary ,is to think what if Wow was mulit platform,that game hit 65% of the total MMORPG market at it's peak lol and that without xbox or Playstation .Shows how far marketing can push a product,these were for the majority BRAND new gamers who had zero clue what Wow offered,yet they stilll bought it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Think Merdian 59 was before EQ and UO, and was 3D.....of course you may be young and was unaware of preceding MMO's....as far a graphical MMO's it may have been first if not the first.
However, AC IMO was bout the best of the 3 when it comes to UO, EQ, and AC in comparrsion. AC had so much freedom with character design, and gameplay, super huge open world, dungeons, although required loading were not instanced. Asheron's Call was by far the one of the greatest MMO's I ever had the experience of playing first run.
Awful 3d graphics???
lets see.. i know counterstrike...
everquest
Now back in 99 they where both good looking games..
Someone is confusing mainstream and broadband...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Which part didn't you understand,let me say it again just so it's clear.
The first mainstream 3D mmo was EQ,do you understand when i say mainstream 3D?
If i would of said "the first mainstream MMO" without the 3D part in my sentance then you would have a point but i didn't,did i.
Perhaps you need to actually read a sentance properly.
Who said anything about mainstream meaning 3D lol.
Well, i'm not from UO or EQ's time, but i'd say the first mainstream mmo was WOW. By mainstream, i mean played by a large pool of people from different social status, jobs, etc, etc. I may be wrong, but UO, EQ and all other mmo's where mostly played by the RPG "nerds" from back then. WOW made mmorpg jump into the "spotlight" and the genre grew in great popularity from then.
In my AC1 guild, the majority of members didn't even have computer related jobs. There was even one guy in the police (and he still is nowadays, we are still in contact). So the "nerd" theory is... wacky, at the least.
Replace "nerd" with "above average people who had some culture and tech knowledge" and you'll be closer to the truth.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023