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Main reason why SWTOR flopped?

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  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    As much of a talking head Mark Jacobs truly is, I do feel there is merit to some of his points, and this is one of them. Merging servers is typically a bad sign that a game is in trouble, for multiple reasons. However, like you said, BIoware/EA can spin it any which way they want, but having to do merges in a game that hasn't been out for a year is nothing but a bad, bad sign.

    Looking back, it's fairly obvious that Bioware/EA thought that they would have a successful game based on the IP alone. Which in terms of box sales, you could call the game successful (for a single player game), but in terms of sub retention the game is a miserable flop. Not only did they fail to hold onto the brunt of their subs, they are also loosing out on future sales as well.

    If the game had been B2P with no sub fee, but had a C-store with optional DLC, the fans of the genre might be a bit more forgiving. Hell, more people might even purchase knowing full well that they would play maybe 100 hours (not like that's a terrible value of entertainment). They might even go back and play if they released some DLC mission packs or something of that nature.

    Sorry, I don't agree (just for the sake of it, you know ;-))

    The box sales were exceptionally successful for a RPG, single player or MMO. I don't think we need to discuss that.

    Retention... now that is where people just love to make up "ideas" without actually current data being available.

    First, the cornerstones:

    BW said they had 1.7 Mio subscription at time of launch/shortly after.

    At the beginning of May they gave a number of 1.3 Mio subscribers.

    Now, the things to remember:

    a) these numbers were probably pre-APAC, so there's problably a fair bit of potential hidden.

    b) BW never confirmed (as far as I know) a loss of 400K subscriptions. You need to remember that we could easily be looking at SWTOR having gained 500K subscriptions since launch value and then over the time from Feb to Apr have lost 900K subscriptions.

    The lost 400K subscriptions is the best possible assumption.

    c) all of these numbers are from May. We are now in June.

    d) additional sources like Xfire provide no subscription information only (very limited) information on active players.

    e) there is a difference between subscriptions and active subscriptions! While subscriptions include players in trial phases or in the initial time of the game, active subscribers are those that are past the initial 30 days and are still p(l)aying.

     Last I read the confirmed number of active subscribers was 1 Mio. (May data)

    Which meant that 300K of the subscribers were not yet considered active subscriber i.e. into their first actual billing cycle.

    Which in turn could mean that by now these 300K could have gone off into the sunset or dug in and are p(l)aying SWTOR. Obviously, these are the extremes and the numbers can be split.

    But staying with the extremes, it could mean that SWTOR has lost 700K out of 1.7 Mio subscribers... or 400K out of 1.7 Mio.  (and that is not mentioning the possibility of there actually having been even more subscribers than the 1.7-1.3 Mio data suggests! Remember that aspects like free weekend and buddy trials may also be factored into the subscriber numbers potentially...

    Now, there is obviously a huge difference between losing about 25% of your (not active) subscribers and almost 50%.

    The simple fact is: we don't know what's true!

    Unless either BW or EA releases clear, hard numbers again, we are all just farting into the wind...

    But what I'm really finding scary is how people always pull a B2P/F2P with item shop as the ultimate savior...

    I don't know about you folks but me, yeah, if I like the game I'd prefer to have it all. At least as far as maps, quests, races, classes, etc. goes.

    So, if I had to buy DLC worth $100 per year just to have it all (except of course certain luxary items for which I'd have to spend another $50, and booster packs, another $60, and who knows what) but don't have the - what I feel - guarantee that the game designer will actually try to make my overall game experience as positive as possible (by looking after the servers, by bug blasting old and new content, by adding new content outside any DLC packs, well, I'd rather pay my $15 each month and get it all.

     

     

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2
    Originally posted by Tayah
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by achesoma

    Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

    They do need more end content, and by the bunches.

     

    That said, there are those of us having fun, and the numbers are still pretty good sized. Game isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I think the merge is going to be a good thing, and only wish they had limited servers in the first place.

    The game is not pretty good sized. You don't do merges if you have over 1 million players playing. They've flat out lied about the numbers.

    Mark Jacobs once said about Warhammer before it's release (and it came back to haunt him but thats another story), back in August 2008

    http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/
    "The corollary to that is if you've seen a game consolidate servers, you know it's in deep, deep trouble -- that's not a healthy sign for an MMO," he said,

    “Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

     

    This still holds true today with any mmo that comes out. Bioware can spin it anyway they want, but the simple truth is they're not doing good.

    i guess not very many people relize that swtor shipped with to many servers anyway.im not exactly calling swtor dead just because they merged alot of them recently.there just late to whole merging servers thing that should of been done 6 months ago

     

    No servers have been merged! Please get your facts straight!

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 983Member Uncommon

    My reason for the game flopping:

     

    It stopped being fun.  Simple enough reason, eh?

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by nyxium

    Retrospectively:

     

    Released too early, probably under pressure from EA management, this happened with Warhammer.

    Patches weren't patches, but more bugs in an app. i.e. Ilum

    Single player space combat. MMO needs MMO space combat and nothing but this. Consumers were not going to pay a sub for single player space combat when they signed up for a MMO.

    Expensive game box's and preorders.

    Many servers meant costs weren't been recovered only incremently accrued.

    Subs might put people off if the game got trolled, or honestly constructively criticized dependent on view point.

    Hype, too too too much hype. Hype puts them off after time.

    SWG shutdown already cast a gloomy atmosphere before launch.

    Tried to be WoW in space.

    No night.

     

    Mainly this.

    Interesting points... and yet so pointless ;-)

    Okay, when I beta'd SWTOR you know what the one thing was I was afraid I'd have to do with my Smuggler: space combat!

    The opening cinematics made this pretty clear... and to be honest, the other classes just didn't really feel "space-y" in a not just travel but actually fight way.

    Boy, was I glad that there was just this addon of space combat in SWTOR!

    Are you understanding what I'm trying to say? So people - apparently you - think that in a game that is set up spanning a universe space combat is a must. Others prefer to look at the classic aspects of MMORPGs i.e. the characters.

    As much as I'd like to cheer for a game like Mechwarrior Online, if I can't get out of my Mech, if I can't sneak up on an enemy Mech and planet a bomb on one of its legs and then watch from the top of a hill my Mech is savely parked behind how the other Mech topples over in a nice explosion, yeah, don't count me interested.

    So, if you want a space combat flight sim, look around, there are other games, even free ones, though they may not have the SW mark.

    Yes, the patches were... well... unwholesome to put it mildly, at least in the beginning... which has many fathers. One is definitely players (still) ignoring the PTS.

    BW shouldn't have rushed out the patches after very little testing by very few but rather let the whole thing stew and then release a good patch...

    the problem is just that some people were actually having real issue - not me - and they required help ASPA...

    which creates a problem situation: do you try to help them at the risk of this really being a simple bandaid and potentially doingjust as much bad (or maybe even more) than good, or do you tell people to suck it up and wait until the patch is ready?

    Neither of the 2 is better.

    The problem people fail too understand is the complexity of modern computer systems. There are litteraslly hundreds, thousands of different graphics cards with different drivers/driver versions out there. If a company wanted to test all of them, they would already have lost out.

    And at the same time you as the game designer need to remember that the gamer's system is his own responsibility: if the game has been confirmed as working fine with the driver version 2 numbers back and the gamer refuses to do a rollback because this newest version is running better with another game, it's up to the player to resolve that problem, not the game publisher (at least in the short run. Obviously they'll have to figure out why maybe the current driver version isn't ticking right with their game... though potentially before they get down to it a new driver may alread've been released...)

    Expensive box and pre-orders? I'm not going to ask you if this was your first P2P MMO but, well, you can't have had many before, right?

    Yes, the price was some $3 or 4 up above other games, but nothing really drastic... and I remember that very same model having been used thru the early years of the 21st century with MMORPG: you buy the box which costs about as much as a singleplayer game and the obviously comes the subscription... but SWTOR? Expensive? Nah...

    "Subs might put people off if the game got trolled, or honestly constructively criticized dependent on view point.

    Hype, too too too much hype. Hype puts them off after time."" """""""

    Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about!

    I don't give a fuck about hype or trolling in regards to buying the game or not. I'll try to test the game (usually via beta) before buying it, but if there are too many "yeah" screechers or "hate" trollers, that may only effect my behaviour on the forums, not in regards to shelling out the money or not.

    Sorry, I think I'm just too old to be bullied  or not being able to make my own judgment call.

    "SWG shutdown already cast a gloomy atmosphere before launch."

    Always love that "logic"...people who couldn't keep the simple fact straight that these are 2 separate games, well, I'm  sorry but you deserve to fall on your arse!

    And yes, obviously everything is trying to be "WoW"... look TSW is WoW with X Files...

    WoW has created a business model that is today just as successful as it was 5 years ago.

    Now, this might sound like a dumb question but... why mess with it? Because a minority - yes, a minority! - wants to play something else? Hey, if another game publisher can come up with a business model just as successful, yes, of course, nothing wrong with going for that... but a) you will then eventually see the very same as you did with WoW i.e. clones of said new business model game popping up everywhere, and b) game publishers are not in the business for bringing gamers fun... they are in it for the money! So you may have to excuse them for thinking with their head rather than their heart!

    Yes, the missing day/night cycle is a bit of a shame... and yet, after a while I didn't notice it anymore. And considering how "messed up" time is in SWTOR anyways (different planets with different rotations, distances that in RL even with a car would take hours just hopped away via speeder, etc.) I don't think having no day/night cycle is the ultimate deal breaker, at least not for me...

  • ShazkneeShazknee IshøjPosts: 81Member

    I don't get the whole "they've lost subs due to a lack of players"

     

    Well thoose players left for a reason, it's a terrible mmo, which in the end caused the server issues.

     

    I havent logged on since January, and I don't plan to play it ever again, neither does the other 20ish people i started SWTOR with, it's just a boring wow clone done worse tbh.

     

    Sure the fans will tell everyone that the game is great now, that they did server merges, did merges fix bugs? lack of world pvp? horrible instances? Linear gaming? a dead world? a reason to revisit old "planets/hallways"?, WoW like armor? action delay?............and the list goes on.

     

    No it didnt, it's the same shitty game I played in January, and there were people to group with back then, but even so we all left, some went back to EVE, some went back to WoW, and others waited for D3 and are busy with it till GW2 comes out.

     

    I had alot of hopes for SWTOR, I can honestly live with a wall of bugs (Heck I played SWG for 2 years), but the game needs to be fun, and SWTOR just isnt, it's for the singleplayer/crazy starwars fan crowd, it's got nothing to do with a mmorpg, if SWTOR is a mmo, then so is D3 and GW, and the RPG part? every mmorpg I've played, the RPG part were between players, not you can a questgiver, someone seriously missunderstood something at Bioware.

     

    @Trol1, great that you're lovng the game, but your points are just nonsense. Apparently it's the customers fault that the game failed? 

  • Matticus75Matticus75 Posts: 396Member Uncommon

    I dont blame the devs, its the producers that control the resources

     

    I recall when the game was first announced that it was going to have 3 factions, Sith, Republic, and another "Criminal" type faction

     

    The Republic symbol was a the Empire Symbol, (Which if you think about it, it really is the correct Symbol) the Sith looked something like a neo nazi symbol with 3 "prongs" and Criminal faction looked something like the  bounter hunter type symbol

     

     

    Bottom line the game goes from an Idea, then %90 of it gets cut

     

    Just like TV shows, Music and another other art, the market attempts to reduce it to a "Formula" and then weights cost/benefits to produce the mediocre, over time product gets institutionalized

     

    If a game can be made excellent at low cost, then cut more internally till it becomes mediocre

     

    The market system the way it is always makes the mediocre in the end, at first something surburb, then reduced to the average

    But like Mark Twain once said "I dont like the system, but its the best thing out there"

    Oh well...........

     

     

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Shazknee

    I don't get the whole "they've lost subs due to a lack of players"

     

    Well thoose players left for a reason, it's a terrible mmo, which in the end caused the server issues.

     

    I havent logged on since January, and I don't plan to play it ever again, neither does the other 20ish people i started SWTOR with, it's just a boring wow clone done worse tbh.

     

    Sure the fans will tell everyone that the game is great now, that they did server merges, did merges fix bugs? lack of world pvp? horrible instances? Linear gaming? a dead world? a reason to revisit old "planets/hallways"?, WoW like armor? action delay?............and the list goes on.

     

    No it didnt, it's the same shitty game I played in January, and there were people to group with back then, but even so we all left, some went back to EVE, some went back to WoW, and others waited for D3 and are busy with it till GW2 comes out.

     

    I had alot of hopes for SWTOR, I can honestly live with a wall of bugs (Heck I played SWG for 2 years), but the game needs to be fun, and SWTOR just isnt, it's for the singleplayer/crazy starwars fan crowd, it's got nothing to do with a mmorpg, if SWTOR is a mmo, then so is D3 and GW, and the RPG part? every mmorpg I've played, the RPG part were between players, not you can a questgiver, someone seriously missunderstood something at Bioware.

     

    @Trol1, great that you're lovng the game, but your points are just nonsense. Apparently it's the customers fault that the game failed? 

    The game hasnt failed in reality.....certain MMORPG.com posters are far from reality, and I would present the 500M thread as evidence to that claim. Others would have us believe MMO sandboxes are the way to go, and not a single one has had more subs than EQ did 8 yrs ago.

     

    When you say the game "isnt fun"....you mean to say "the game isnt fun to me". I happen to like it, and there are plenty of others shelling out the 15 per month, so they must as well.

     

    TOR is still holding the 2nd most NA subs. I can live with it. Game sales plus subs thus far either have paid off production, or are pretty damn close to the 200M investment. Going forward is pure gravy for EA/BW/LA....something that seems to be escaping the folks crying wolf.

     

    We wont be seeing a game revamp within 2 yrs, let alone a second one. Instead the cries of "it will closed in a yr" will really start to stand out like the claims of "Swg is shutting down in 3 months", and "We are getting back the PRECioUs". Just more wishful thinking from the usual crowd.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Shazknee
     

    The game hasnt failed in reality.....certain MMORPG.com posters are far from reality, and I would present the 500M thread as evidence to that claim. Others would have us believe MMO sandboxes are the way to go, and not a single one has had more subs than EQ did 8 yrs ago.

     

     

    The game has failed. Huge budget, huge IP, destroyed by incompetent scumbag developers and down to under 300k subs. That's failure, pure and simple.

    SWTOR is an utter failure, the worst MMO failure in history. Not surprising since it is developed by the worst MMO developer team in history.

    image

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Shazknee
     

    The game hasnt failed in reality.....certain MMORPG.com posters are far from reality, and I would present the 500M thread as evidence to that claim. Others would have us believe MMO sandboxes are the way to go, and not a single one has had more subs than EQ did 8 yrs ago.

     

     

    The game has failed. Huge budget, huge IP, destroyed by incompetent scumbag developers and down to under 300k subs. That's failure, pure and simple.

    SWTOR is an utter failure, the worst MMO failure in history. Not surprising since it is developed by the worst MMO developer team in history.

    Suuuuuure it has.

     

    In 5 yrs, when the game is still chugging along, I bet you will still be trying to run the smack in this forum.

     

    You have been running the 300 or 400k sub thing for a while now. You were full of shit then, and you still are. I would say the beating horse thing is quite apt. Now if you wanna photo ship your RL pic in for the information minister, and throw the caption 'I swear it  is going to shut down any minute now", you would have friggen gold.

     

    There is nothing to support your, nor the OPs contention, yet you guys attempt to pass it off as fact. Which is par for the course when it comes to the haters around here.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Shazknee
     

    Suuuuuure it has.

     

    In 5 yrs, when the game is still chugging along, I bet you will still be trying to run the smack in this forum.

     

    You have been running the 300 or 400k sub thing for a while now. You were full of shit then, and you still are. I would say the beating horse thing is quite apt. Now if you wanna photo ship your RL pic in for the information minister, and throw the caption 'I swear it  is going to shut down any minute now", you would have friggen gold.

     

    There is nothing to support your, nor the OPs contention, yet you guys attempt to pass it off as fact. Which is par for the course when it comes to the haters around here.

     

    I never said it would shut down. Warhammer hasn't and it has 2 servers total worldwide. I know very well how these things go. I'm a regular player with years of experience playing MMOs, unlike you who came here bent on spreading disinformation and fire-fighting for a failed MMO.

    SWTOR does have under 300k subs, and that number is still dropping, fast.

    It went from over 200 servers worldwide to just over a dozen.

    Just match the reality to the lies. Down to just over a dozen servers with 1.3 million subs? It's obvious who is lying.

    SWTOR is a total, abject failure, because its incompetent scumbag developers failed to make a good game that players wanted to play, and their arrogance and dishonesty made them ignore all the feedback provided by players to improve the game.

    The story is very simple and very obvious. It's Warhammer all over again, but worse: a bigger and faster failure than ever before.

    image

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Shazknee
     

    Suuuuuure it has.

     

    In 5 yrs, when the game is still chugging along, I bet you will still be trying to run the smack in this forum.

     

    You have been running the 300 or 400k sub thing for a while now. You were full of shit then, and you still are. I would say the beating horse thing is quite apt. Now if you wanna photo ship your RL pic in for the information minister, and throw the caption 'I swear it  is going to shut down any minute now", you would have friggen gold.

     

    There is nothing to support your, nor the OPs contention, yet you guys attempt to pass it off as fact. Which is par for the course when it comes to the haters around here.

     

    I never said it would shut down. Warhammer hasn't and it has 2 servers total worldwide. I know very well how these things go. I'm a regular player with years of experience playing MMOs, unlike you who came here bent on spreading disinformation and fire-fighting for a failed MMO.

    SWTOR does have under 300k subs, and that number is still dropping, fast.

    It went from over 200 servers worldwide to just over a dozen.

    Just match the reality to the lies. Down to just over a dozen servers with 1.3 million subs? It's obvious who is lying.

    SWTOR is a total, abject failure, because its incompetent scumbag developers failed to make a good game that players wanted to play, and their arrogance and dishonesty made them ignore all the feedback provided by players to improve the game.

    The story is very simple and very obvious. It's Warhammer all over again, but worse: a bigger and faster failure than ever before.

    SWTOR does have under 300k subs, and that number is still dropping, fast.

    Link to where these numbers are officially given by BW please?

    It went from over 200 servers worldwide to just over a dozen.

    Weird, just looked at http://www.swtor.com/server-status and there are by far over a dozen servers listed...?

    Could it be that you are either living in your own SWTOR hating reality?

    Or maybe you are NOT "a regular player with years of experience playing MMOs" but rather someone "who came here bent on spreading disinformation"?

    Oooh, watch out, the truth can bite you in the arse, and other body parts! ;-)

     

     

     

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Shazknee
     

    Suuuuuure it has.

     

    In 5 yrs, when the game is still chugging along, I bet you will still be trying to run the smack in this forum.

     

    You have been running the 300 or 400k sub thing for a while now. You were full of shit then, and you still are. I would say the beating horse thing is quite apt. Now if you wanna photo ship your RL pic in for the information minister, and throw the caption 'I swear it  is going to shut down any minute now", you would have friggen gold.

     

    There is nothing to support your, nor the OPs contention, yet you guys attempt to pass it off as fact. Which is par for the course when it comes to the haters around here.

     

    I never said it would shut down. Warhammer hasn't and it has 2 servers total worldwide. I know very well how these things go. I'm a regular player with years of experience playing MMOs, unlike you who came here bent on spreading disinformation and fire-fighting for a failed MMO.

    SWTOR does have under 300k subs, and that number is still dropping, fast.

    It went from over 200 servers worldwide to just over a dozen.

    Just match the reality to the lies. Down to just over a dozen servers with 1.3 million subs? It's obvious who is lying.

    SWTOR is a total, abject failure, because its incompetent scumbag developers failed to make a good game that players wanted to play, and their arrogance and dishonesty made them ignore all the feedback provided by players to improve the game.

    The story is very simple and very obvious. It's Warhammer all over again, but worse: a bigger and faster failure than ever before.

    No you have been spouting under 200k, and heading to less than 100k....much difference? I dont see it.

     

    Show me under 300k as fact, or else  once more it is simply a case of you shoveling the hater shit.

     

    There are still over 600 employees involved with the game. For the numbers you keep spouting BW would have it down to SWG employee numbers prior to the NGE. That just isnt the case. They cut back on 200 of the 800 slots, and the 600 remaining  would stand up with any game live/in production save WoW, and possibly Titan.

     

    Yet you are still here spewing BS.

     

    Like I said, I bet you are here in 5 yrs still talking blown out your ass information. If EA/BW ever get to the point that they dip below 500k, we will see the F2P conversation, and income will still keep kicking ass. No matter how much you wish it, this game isnt going anywhere, and it will continue bringing in large amounts of money.

     

     

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • SandboxSandbox SwedenPosts: 295Member
    Originally posted by Trol1
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Greyhooff
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Originally posted by Shazknee
     

    Suuuuuure it has.

     

    In 5 yrs, when the game is still chugging along, I bet you will still be trying to run the smack in this forum.

     

    You have been running the 300 or 400k sub thing for a while now. You were full of shit then, and you still are. I would say the beating horse thing is quite apt. Now if you wanna photo ship your RL pic in for the information minister, and throw the caption 'I swear it  is going to shut down any minute now", you would have friggen gold.

     

    There is nothing to support your, nor the OPs contention, yet you guys attempt to pass it off as fact. Which is par for the course when it comes to the haters around here.

     

    I never said it would shut down. Warhammer hasn't and it has 2 servers total worldwide. I know very well how these things go. I'm a regular player with years of experience playing MMOs, unlike you who came here bent on spreading disinformation and fire-fighting for a failed MMO.

    SWTOR does have under 300k subs, and that number is still dropping, fast.

    It went from over 200 servers worldwide to just over a dozen.

    Just match the reality to the lies. Down to just over a dozen servers with 1.3 million subs? It's obvious who is lying.

    SWTOR is a total, abject failure, because its incompetent scumbag developers failed to make a good game that players wanted to play, and their arrogance and dishonesty made them ignore all the feedback provided by players to improve the game.

    The story is very simple and very obvious. It's Warhammer all over again, but worse: a bigger and faster failure than ever before.

    SWTOR does have under 300k subs, and that number is still dropping, fast.

    Link to where these numbers are officially given by BW please?

    It went from over 200 servers worldwide to just over a dozen.

    Weird, just looked at http://www.swtor.com/server-status and there are by far over a dozen servers listed...?

    Could it be that you are either living in your own SWTOR hating reality?

    Or maybe you are NOT "a regular player with years of experience playing MMOs" but rather someone "who came here bent on spreading disinformation"?

    Oooh, watch out, the truth can bite you in the arse, and other body parts! ;-)

     

     

     

    Can you provide a recent link to BW with official numbers?
    I assume not, and guess why; their subscription numbers are falling through the floor at the moment. Please provide an official and recent statement that they do not have 300k or fewer subscribers now.
     
    If you are able omit the fact of the ongoing character transfer due to server merges and instead base your facts of a list with hundreds of empty (light) servers, then you should  not speculate of where “the truth can bite…”. This last part is a great example of disinformation at its best. 
  • sonoggisonoggi tdot, ONPosts: 1,119Member

    there is one major reason TOR flopped, and i called it 3 years ago on these very forums: it tried to be like WoW. when one of the moron devs said something along the lines of "if you're not copying WoW, youre making a mistake", i pretty much gave up on the game. like this sentence on its own should have been enough to lower EA's stocks, but everyone was so pumped that very few if any paid attention to this comment.

  • MardermannMardermann ViennaPosts: 29Member

    I played for three months... it was not a very good mmo... it was an okay single player game.. would have been better they would have made some kind of lobby  and from there you can play the instances... them I liked ... but well... you need people to play them... and there where none of them left on my server... so I quit (not ragequit) 

    It was fun for three months though... then it got ... boring?

     

    maybe they can turn it around... but personally I dont think so...

     

     

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Main reasons:

    Linear quest design. Quest hubs on rails.

    Tunnel design. One step away from the intended path and you hit a invisible wall.

    No freedom or focus on exploring in general.

     

    I think all games designed like that will fail longterm. How can it be fun to play something like that for more than a month? Incredible!

    Things like:

    Kill x of y quests and fedex quests make it worse. People have been doing quest like that for years. Its very old and very boring. Voice acting will not help...

    PvP unbalanced and rewards very annoying.

    Endgame for PvE -very old ideas that people dont want anymore. Grind gear and repeat. Farm raid instances and bosses over and over. Retart. Do it again..forever.

     

    Perhaps other companies and more important -investors- will stop believing in this type of game design. And we will see new and fresh ideas and games in the future..At least we can hope!

  • SaerainSaerain Barrington, RIPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Greyhooff 

    I never said it would shut down.

    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    SWTOR is a total, abject failure,

    So, what's a failure, again? Games that you, yourself don't like, or what?

    Favorites: EVE, VG, LotRO | Playing: None | Anticipating: SC, ED, TD, EQN, CU
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

    Pretty simple, and I was pointing this out years in advance but went ignored.

     

    The concept of SWTOR was the STORY FOCUS element in a MMO.

    The problem here, is that they wanted to bring over the Singleplayer RPG feel to the MMORPG genre.

    These two genres (MMORPG and SRPG and ORPG) are all RPGs in some way, but very different in taste, which in theory is why something that works in one of those sub genres may not be so successful in the other sub genre.

    The Story Focus of a SRPG like KOTOR and DragonAge, just doesnt work in a MMORPG.

    From observation alone, you can see this in games that existed before the launch of SWTOR.

    what I mean, is that if you observe how the general MMORPG market consumers view story in pre-SWTOR MMO, you can see that the general consumer doesnt care about Story in MMORPGs. in the past Quest Text went ignored for a reason. Many people blamed the lore for this, but the reality of it is, that

    in MMO genre, the game is very Time exclusive and heavily competitive .

    what this means is that, most players see a larger value in "GAMEPLAY TIME" being spent on staying "Competitive" rather than toying around with reading lore.

    this same thing crossed over to SWTOR's cutscenes. Most MMORPG gamers still hold this same mindset, of "Time and Competitiveness". So most people wont stay interested in viewing these time wasting videos of NPC talking, when that sub time can be spent actually staying competitive.

     

    Most of SWTOR's resources went into these Cutscene and voice overs, that the game lacked the MMORPG gameplay that can keep a MMO community interested. the IP alone wont do that. And the Name behind hte developers wont do that.

    if you sacrifice gameplay for story in the MMO genre, it simply wont hold up. you can get away with that in a SRPG or even a ORPG, but not a MMORPG.

    image

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member

    In my opinion swtor flopped so bad because when people hit 50 there were 2 choices of what you could do: Farm bgs or Farm heroics/raids. The stroy took a complete back step at 50 and it just became a big grind. I will admit that i loved swtor leveling cause of the story but i didnt wanna level a new char right away just to keep enjoying the game. Swtor needs more things to do at endgame, world events, world pvp, more story content, and make the existing pvp and pve interesting, until then im not touching it unless they give me a freek weekend or something.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Pretty simple, and I was pointing this out years in advance but went ignored.

     

    The concept of SWTOR was the STORY FOCUS element in a MMO.

    The problem here, is that they wanted to bring over the Singleplayer RPG feel to the MMORPG genre.

    These two genres (MMORPG and SRPG and ORPG) are all RPGs in some way, but very different in taste, which in theory is why something that works in one of those sub genres may not be so successful in the other sub genre.

    The Story Focus of a SRPG like KOTOR and DragonAge, just doesnt work in a MMORPG.

    From observation alone, you can see this in games that existed before the launch of SWTOR.

    what I mean, is that if you observe how the general MMORPG market consumers view story in pre-SWTOR MMO, you can see that the general consumer doesnt care about Story in MMORPGs. in the past Quest Text went ignored for a reason. Many people blamed the lore for this, but the reality of it is, that

    in MMO genre, the game is very Time exclusive and heavily competitive .

    what this means is that, most players see a larger value in "GAMEPLAY TIME" being spent on staying "Competitive" rather than toying around with reading lore.

    this same thing crossed over to SWTOR's cutscenes. Most MMORPG gamers still hold this same mindset, of "Time and Competitiveness". So most people wont stay interested in viewing these time wasting videos of NPC talking, when that sub time can be spent actually staying competitive.

     

    Most of SWTOR's resources went into these Cutscene and voice overs, that the game lacked the MMORPG gameplay that can keep a MMO community interested. the IP alone wont do that. And the Name behind hte developers wont do that.

    if you sacrifice gameplay for story in the MMO genre, it simply wont hold up. you can get away with that in a SRPG or even a ORPG, but not a MMORPG.

    For once i actually disagree with you. Sure many people pounded that space bar like no tomorrow but saying that story isnt important in an mmo is completely false. SWTOR was only good because of its story. YOu could say that if theyt devoted all that time and money from the VO and put it into actual gameplay elements it could of been better GAMEPLAY wise, But i feel many people wanted actual story in an mmo and not a ! makr and a click of a button to get a quest.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member
    Originally posted by Saerain
    Originally posted by Greyhooff 

    I never said it would shut down.

    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    SWTOR is a total, abject failure,

    So, what's a failure, again? Games that you, yourself don't like, or what?

     

    Games developed for 200-300 million dollars that go from having over 200 servers to having just over a dozen, and with a retention rate so low that 2.3 million box sales goes down to below 300k subs - all in under 6 months.

    That's what I call a failure, what would you call it?

    No other game has failed as hard, or as fast, as SWTOR.

    image

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Moaky07

    No you have been spouting under 200k, and heading to less than 100k....much difference? I dont see it.

     

    Show me under 300k as fact, or else  once more it is simply a case of you shoveling the hater shit.

     

    There are still over 600 employees involved with the game. For the numbers you keep spouting BW would have it down to SWG employee numbers prior to the NGE. That just isnt the case. They cut back on 200 of the 800 slots, and the 600 remaining  would stand up with any game live/in production save WoW, and possibly Titan.

     

    Yet you are still here spewing BS.

     

    Like I said, I bet you are here in 5 yrs still talking blown out your ass information. If EA/BW ever get to the point that they dip below 500k, we will see the F2P conversation, and income will still keep kicking ass. No matter how much you wish it, this game isnt going anywhere, and it will continue bringing in large amounts of money.

     

     

    Funny stuff.

    Can you provide links to ANYTHING that confirms what you are saying?

    Empirical research and unofficial sources (best we have) says - totally oposite of what you are saying.

    If nothing else, you can just look at handful of full servers.

    Enjoy.

  • garretthgarretth Chandler, AZPosts: 316Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by Moaky07

    No you have been spouting under 200k, and heading to less than 100k....much difference? I dont see it.

     

    Show me under 300k as fact, or else  once more it is simply a case of you shoveling the hater shit.

     

    There are still over 600 employees involved with the game. For the numbers you keep spouting BW would have it down to SWG employee numbers prior to the NGE. That just isnt the case. They cut back on 200 of the 800 slots, and the 600 remaining  would stand up with any game live/in production save WoW, and possibly Titan.

     

    Yet you are still here spewing BS.

     

    Like I said, I bet you are here in 5 yrs still talking blown out your ass information. If EA/BW ever get to the point that they dip below 500k, we will see the F2P conversation, and income will still keep kicking ass. No matter how much you wish it, this game isnt going anywhere, and it will continue bringing in large amounts of money.

     

     

    Funny stuff.

    Can you provide links to ANYTHING that confirms what you are saying?

    Empirical research and unofficial sources (best we have) says - totally oposite of what you are saying.

    If nothing else, you can just look at handful of full servers.

    Enjoy.

     

    Doing a 'who' on my husbands server right now...25 people are showing....  not sure how accurate.

  • MMOSavantMMOSavant NuneatonPosts: 170Member

    I don't know why it has flopped, all I can comment on is why I stopped playing. Firstly the planets with internal areas had endless dull corridors and warehouse-like areas and on the external planets the almost featureless landscapes bored me fairly quickly. Added to that was the tendancy for mobs to just stand about in groups of 2 or 3 waiting to be killed. It was all so linear and mind-numbing. Balmorra was one of the worst zones i've ever played in any game and to cap it once i'd done it with an Empire character I had to go back there later with a Republic character at a higher level. That was when I unsubbed... I just couldn't take Balmorra again.

     

    So uninspired linear zones and boring mobs.

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by Sandbox
    Can you provide a recent link to BW with official numbers?
    I assume not, and guess why; their subscription numbers are falling through the floor at the moment. Please provide an official and recent statement that they do not have 300k or fewer subscribers now.
     
    If you are able omit the fact of the ongoing character transfer due to server merges and instead base your facts of a list with hundreds of empty (light) servers, then you should  not speculate of where “the truth can bite…”. This last part is a great example of disinformation at its best. 

    Sandbox,

    double standard much?

    Let me guess: "hey, I'm a SWTOR hater, whatever I say I don't need to prove it, it has to be right by default. On the other hand, if you are a SWTOR fanbhoy, well, you better provide triple confirmation source otherwise you are completely unbelievable and most likely actually lying!", right?

    WEll, as a gentleman, I'd say show me yours and I'll show you mine, but as you are probably going to the "SWTOR haters don't need to show" rule, well, what is the point of continuing?

    Because, see, in the end the joke is always on you: 50 Mio subs, or just 1 Mio or just 500K or just 100K or just 10 (yes, 10 as in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10), according to you SWTOR haters SWTOR was never a MMO. So there shouldn't really be a difference for us as long as BW keeps the service running at all :-P

    Sucks to be a SWTOR hater, can't win 'em, can only lose...

This discussion has been closed.