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The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia SydneyPosts: 185Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

    Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system.  If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again. 

    Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you.  In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds.  Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.

    Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating.  No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.

    They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going :)

    Games are never going back to the way they were.  They can't.  Living in the past, dreaming nostalgically about the way things used to be is pointless.  This is the new MMO reality.  Either play that way or don't play.  I don't see any other way to get around the problems.

    The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them.  If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).

    In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

    The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them.  If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).

    In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.

    EvE has it's own problems, like the douchebags that camp the gates in low sec space so they can kill anyone coming through.  That's a whole class of people who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

    Community and reputation are essential to creating a self regulating social system.  If you were desperately hunting for a parking spot I think 9/10 people would be less likely to steal one from a next door neighbour than from a random they're never see again. 

    Likewise if you were going to add to your circle of friends, you are likely to add people who have something in common to you.  In Everquest there were RP guilds, there were raiding guilds, there were family guilds, mature age guilds.  Even as members of those guilds people still tended to gravitate towards cliques of likeminded people.

    Grouping now is like going to the mall, being randomly placed into groups and being expected to enjoy the next 30 minutes cooperating.  No wonder everyones trying to get through it as fast as possible.

    They should probably add some sort of EHarmony system to it if they insist on using a queuing system rather then fixing the reason its so tough to get a group going :)

    Reputation really doesn't work in modern MMOs, all one has to do is change characters or change servers and their bad reputation vanishes.  Since there isn't a single community anymore, that doesn't seem to matter either.  There are always groups you can join and, if you wear out your welcome there, just go join a different group.  Guilds can be useful in weeding out some of the random grouping, but that works only if you stick within your narrow niche of friends or within your guild.  Guilds are very useful for that kind of thing, you have a group of people that you know and, assuming you don't stray outside of that group, you're probably going to get a better experience, again assuming that the people in your guild want to play the same way you do.

    Last guild I was in, in fact in most  guilds, they didn't.  They all want to run as fast as they can through the instance, get to the boss, get as much XP as they can and get out.  That seems to be the norm these days.  I, however, like to be slow, methodical, loot every chest, check every body, pick up everything that gets dropped, even if it isn't the big drops that come off the boss.  So I'm checking chests, they're running down the hall as fast as they can.  No thanks.  I've talked to lots of guildies and they all agree that the chances of me finding a party that takes things slow is somewhere between slim and nil.

    Probably the biggest problem with modern grouping is that it's universal.  You don't have to actually be at the place you want to go, you just put in a request, people from all over the "world" join the group, it takes everyone 30-45 minutes to get there and get ready and you go do it.  By the time everyone is ready, the first people, the ones who were standing in front of the dungeon from the beginning, are bored silly and just want to get it over with.  The people who were last were probably already in another group elsewhere, trying to maximize XP, and have to rush from that group to the new group to get going on another boss run with the least down time possible.  With the mad rush to endgame, most people only care about gaining levels, not about making friends.  And, of course, just because you're friends with someone, as above, doesn't mean you necessarily want to group with them.

    Games are never going back to the way they were.  They can't.  Living in the past, dreaming nostalgically about the way things used to be is pointless.  This is the new MMO reality.  Either play that way or don't play.  I don't see any other way to get around the problems.

     

    Actually they are, full steam ahead!

    Look at GW2, they are developing game mechanics that reward group play, and also reward players who help other players, even if your not in the same group. This is proven to build strong communities which in turn make games last longer.

    Go read the latest article on Elder Scrolls online, they are also developing game mechanics that reward players for helping other players, and also group play.

    This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.

    Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.

    image
  • eHugeHug HamburgPosts: 224Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia

    The problems you describe are symptoms of the games problems, not the people playing them.  If you play EvE you find nothing all all like the problems you describe because the mechanics are not time and xp based and you can't rush through anything (except the few WoW elements like missions and complexes).

    In terms of recreation, MMO's are very new, less then 2 decades of evolution and I think its a little premature to be declaring the evolution of MMO's being complete.

    EvE has it's own problems, like the douchebags that camp the gates in low sec space so they can kill anyone coming through.  That's a whole class of people who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.

    I would call that a game specific feature not a general problem of it. If you don't like the game giving you "too much freedom", there's a large collection of games that are made for people that prefer to avoid conflicts and/or losses.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    [mod edit]

    Spoiler alert:  People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually).  The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    [mod edit]

    image
  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Khaeros
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    [mod edit]

    Spoiler alert:  People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually).  The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.

    As I've been saying for years.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Khaeros
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    [mod edit]

    Spoiler alert:  People in GW2 and Elder Scrolls online will still solo, there will be assholes in public chat channels, and chances are you will see more soloing than grouping as players start to separate into different zones (a month of play or two gives enough time for players to not be mobbed up at the starting zones, usually).  The communities will still be shit like every other MMO because it's not the game that's at fault - it's the players of the game.

    As I've been saying for years.

    Its partially the games fault, its the mechanics of teh game that decide what players do, to some degree.

    But your right about the players in game that screw things up, and thats part of my point, we get soloers all the time going into MMOs that encourage grouping, and then complain, and make the game unpleasant for other players.

    In the past we have seen many game devs cave to this pressure, but it is changing, GW2 is a good example. While it is very friendly to the soloer, in the form of DEs and some other stuff, the PvP and dungeons are more group directed. I doubt Anet will stop the development of group content in favor of soloers, just not going to happen.

    Better luck with the next game.   :)

    image
  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by eHug

    I would call that a game specific feature not a general problem of it. If you don't like the game giving you "too much freedom", there's a large collection of games that are made for people that prefer to avoid conflicts and/or losses.

    I entirely avoid PvP.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • Ekor4Ekor4 Poughkeepsie, NYPosts: 17Member

    I tried to make it short. I hope it isn't too confusing. 

     

    I remember this debate on the swtor forums. It boiled down to soloers wanting to obtain the same gear that raiders/wz pvpers can achieve.

    People really got into it. There was a lot of hate and rudness put into those posts. I personally was biased to group content because I raided in wow for several years. I said some stupid crap about how soloers should get gear made specific for solo content, raiding gear for raiders, and so on. 

    I wish I could take it back, because you know what grinds my gears? Gear grinds. I'm so sick of them. 

     

    I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world.  I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive.  One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons. 

     

    Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to. 

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Ekor4

    I tried to make it short. I hope it isn't too confusing. 

     

    I remember this debate on the swtor forums. It boiled down to soloers wanting to obtain the same gear that raiders/wz pvpers can achieve.

    People really got into it. There was a lot of hate and rudness put into those posts. I personally was biased to group content because I raided in wow for several years. I said some stupid crap about how soloers should get gear made specific for solo content, raiding gear for raiders, and so on. 

    I wish I could take it back, because you know what grind my gears? Gear grinds. I'm so sick of them. 

     

    I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world.  I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive.  One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons. 

     

    Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to. 

     

    I believe that is the answer, and the more I play GW2, the more I believe it.

    image
  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Ekor4

    I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world.  I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive.  One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons. 

     Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to. 

    I like the idea in general, I hate gear-whoring, but half the reason these games force people to grind is to keep them paying month after month (or buying things through the shop).  That's half their strategy for staying in business.  I doubt you'd see any company toss away the grinding without replacing it with something else equally lucrative.

    I'd also like to see it required that people craft their own gear.  Otherwise you're going to see gold farmers turn into crafting farmers, making high-end armor and selling it for real money offline.  I'd really like to see the games stop being about selling and trading and more about doing things for yourself.

    Of course, as I said, that will never happen.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia SydneyPosts: 185Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.

    Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.

    Do you actually believe this nonsense?

    Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way?  This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.

    Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).

    As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers.  Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums. 

    I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking  is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers.  The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.

    Think again.

     

  • ShariestShariest VarkausPosts: 44Member

    I have mixed feelings about this...

    I enjoy soloing...A LOT! You can be greedy and feel stronger after downing couple bosses(Depending on game Ofc)

    BUT as a downside i also like to chat and be social, there are some players who i've chatted with that i feel like im going to miss, but can't / forget to firend them (As example WoW has mixed instances between servers...)

    I wouldn't start to compare these two because i think i have balanced them myself.                                                                                         While i don't enjoy PvP (normally) i sometimes go Looking For Group. And the rest of the time i solo :)

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.

    Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.

    Do you actually believe this nonsense?

    Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way?  This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.

    Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).

    As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers.  Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums. 

    I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking  is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers.  The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.

    Think again.

     

     

    Have you even read this thread? You dont see soloers trying to convince players that MMOs are for soloers?

    You seriously need to rethink your position, and read the above posts, there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.

    Team players are there for the fun, while your there to collect pixels. Try again pal.

    image
  • elchosenoneelchosenone Sparkill, NYPosts: 4Member
    Hey everybody, does anybody here play Parallel Kingdom. I’m asking because I’m trying to build a big empire in the game but I need allies to do that, so basically I’m recruiting. If anybody doesn’t know what PK is, you reply to this post and I can answer any questions you have. It’s basically an rpg, but what’s unique about it is that it uses your phone’s GPS to decide you in-game locale. If you wanna play test it, you can download it here.www.parallelkingdom.com If you want an in-game ally who understands symbiotic relationships, look me up; My username is TheChosenOne
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.

    Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.

    Do you actually believe this nonsense?

    Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way?  This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.

    Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).

    As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers.  Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums. 

    I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking  is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers.  The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.

    Think again.

     

     

    Have you even read this thread? You dont see soloers trying to convince players that MMOs are for soloers?

    You seriously need to rethink your position, and read the above posts, there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.

    Team players are there for the fun, while your there to collect pixels. Try again pal.

     I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread.  Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.

    However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers.  And developers are catering to them in many parts as well.  As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping.  Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers

    there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.  But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers.  Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing. 

    Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players.  You are there just to collect your pixels.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread.  Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.

    However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers.  And developers are catering to them in many parts as well.  As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping.  Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers

    there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.  But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers.  Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing. 

    Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players.  You are there just to collect your pixels.

    I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread.  Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.

    However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers.  And developers are catering to them in many parts as well.  As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping.  Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers

    there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.  But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers.  Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing. 

    Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players.  You are there just to collect your pixels.

    I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.

    But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.

    Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.

    MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's.  There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.

    Soloers aren't redisgning anything.  Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.

    Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread.  Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.

    However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers.  And developers are catering to them in many parts as well.  As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping.  Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers

    there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.  But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers.  Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing. 

    Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players.  You are there just to collect your pixels.

    I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.

    But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.

    Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.

    MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's.  There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.

    Soloers aren't redisgning anything.  Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.

    Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system. 

     

    Yes they have said MMOs should be completly soloable, you obviously have not read any of this thread.

    You guys want NO distinction from solo content and group content, meaning you dont belive groupers should get any rewards from grouping that you cant get solo. You also want to solo, any and all group content. which obvioulsy negates the group content.

    Then you claim MMOs were solo to begin with? That is completly false, and I honestly cant believe you would think anyone is going to believe that. Seriously just wow!

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

     I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread.  Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.

    However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers.  And developers are catering to them in many parts as well.  As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping.  Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers

    there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.  But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers.  Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing. 

    Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players.  You are there just to collect your pixels.

    I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.

    But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.

    Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.

    MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's.  There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.

    Soloers aren't redisgning anything.  Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.

    Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system. 

     

    Yes they have said MMOs should be completly soloable, you obviously have not read any of this thread.

    You guys want NO distinction from solo content and group content, meaning you dont belive groupers should get any rewards from grouping that you cant get solo. You also want to solo, any and all group content. which obvioulsy negates the group content.

    Then you claim MMOs were solo to begin with? That is completly false, and I honestly cant believe you would think anyone is going to believe that. Seriously just wow!

    No one has stated they should be ONLY soloable. 

    No.  If you want to group go for it, you should get rewarded.  If you want to solo go for it, you should get rewarded.  Rewards should be based on success. 

    No it doesn't negate all group content, see above. 

    There SHOULD be alternative pathways for both.  People will choose the one they have more fun with.

    I never said MMO's were ONLY solo, I said you could solo in all MMO"s.  Yes you could solo in UO, yes you could solo to cap in EQ with almost half the classes. 

    Seriously just wow!

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.

    Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.

    MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's.  There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.

    Soloers aren't redisgning anything.  Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.

    Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system. 

    You're obviously not understanding human nature, where we all go the path of least resistance, which has been stated many times in this thread. If everything is soloable then people will solo, as simple as that, it'll remove any need for groups because there wouldn't BE a need for groups if people can do it all themselves. To incorporate both playstyles while making them both viable I think is simply an impossible task. A developer needs to choose one or the other.

    Pro-groupers just want to keep a multiplayer game as a multiplayer game. If you can solo everything in a multiplayer game then that game has failed in its genre. It's no better than a single player game with a chat room.

  • IkonoclastiaIkonoclastia SydneyPosts: 185Member Uncommon

    Anyone find it wierd how fantasy fiction, on which most MMO's are based, usually have a single hero or small group of hero's and the fictional content is usually a single soloable (by the hero) or small groupable (by the small group) villian but in MMO's the expectation by a lot of people is in game villians must only be destroyable with  large numbers of people.

    Pretty bizarre.

    @Usual Suspect, you are having a hard time understanding because your definition of multiplayer in MMO's is seriously flawed.

    You can do heaps of things solo in the real world, does that make everything you do in the real world by yourself single player too?  If I go speeding down the road in my car, can I discount everyone else on the road because I'm in the car by myself?. 

    Your assertion that doing something solo in a game world in which many other players are also doing things in the same game world, somehow makes whatever they are doing inconsequtial to other players is total nonsense.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UsualSuspect
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.

    Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.

    MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's.  There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.

    Soloers aren't redisgning anything.  Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.

    Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system. 

    You're obviously not understanding human nature, where we all go the path of least resistance, which has been stated many times in this thread. If everything is soloable then people will solo, as simple as that, it'll remove any need for groups because there wouldn't BE a need for groups if people can do it all themselves. To incorporate both playstyles while making them both viable I think is simply an impossible task. A developer needs to choose one or the other.

    Pro-groupers just want to keep a multiplayer game as a multiplayer game. If you can solo everything in a multiplayer game then that game has failed in its genre. It's no better than a single player game with a chat room.

    Except as has also been stated many time in this threaed, it is not true.  So you are not understanding human nature.  Yes many will do the path of least resistance, however many will also do what they enjoy the mostm and that is the key, people will end up playing the game they enjoy most and playing the style they enjoy most.   If people like grouping then they will group.  WoW has shown that.  They made grouping (dungeons) just as easy and rewarding as soloing (quests) and many many many, some even say the majorty are now grouping up more than soloing. 

    Also who says soloing is easier.  There is no reason whatsoever that soloing needs to be easier than grouping.  Actually if the soloer takes the same mobs as the group, than soloing is harder.  However it can be made even more difficult via simple puzzles or mini games, and I'm sure many other people can think of many other ways. 

    No.  A developer doesn't have to choice on or the other.  They can simply choose activites that are solo or group.  Again, even the dreaded wow has found a solution that offers a great deal of soloing shoulder you, or a great deal of grouping should you wish. 

    A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more. 

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect CardiffPosts: 1,243Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more. 

    Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.

    Let's try a list here:

    Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".

    Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"

    Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".

    The list goes on and on.

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