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SWTOR [mod edit] "looking at" Free-to-Play

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Comments

  • GhostGeishaGhostGeisha AlbufeiraPosts: 286Member

    B2P would be the way. Imo. : )

  • AmbrosiaAmorAmbrosiaAmor Miami, FLPosts: 915Member
    No one should be shocked by this (well almost everyone).
     
    Look at how oversaturated the market is.
     
    There are over 600 MMORPGs, with the vast majority being F2P.
     
    The P2P model has become extremely unpopular, spiraling down from 2005 till now.
     
    From 2010 till now, there have only been 6 games that released with the P2P business model.
     
    This is (one of the many factors) when a company spends this much money making a theme park based game using 90% or more of the same old formula that has existed for the past decade and only making minor modifications.
     
    Thinking that because the IP has an extensive history: whether through movies, single player games, other forms of media does not constitute that it will have the longevity of being able to sustain its P2P model, compared to let’s say the MMORPGs that came out from 1997-2004.
     
    If you cannot separate yourself from the pack (and only add 1 major addition to your game) then don't bother using the P2P model which will ultimately force a mass exodus in under half a year or don't bother spending tens of millions of dollars, or in the case of SWTOR spending over $200 million dollars.

    image

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Worstluck
     

    Yes.  They have Battlefield Heroes, Need for Speed World, Warhammer Wrath of Heroes and more.

     

    Good info, thanks!  Looks like they already have knowledge and infrastructure in F2P.

     

    I think the wildcard is Lucas.  If the LA deal is for percentage of subscription revenue then a conversion is much less likely because they'd need to renegotiate.  I don't expect it anytime soon either way.  I'm guessing they're betting on server mergers and mega-servers to resolve population issues, and then patch what they can to resolve bugs, missing features, imbalances, etc.

     

    At this point, it's wait and see.  We'll know in a few days how the server transfer deal is working out.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

    A little too late. It isn't going to help enough to the point where they will see large profits. It will turn into what Lotro is, a failed popular ip mmo that will get milked until fans eventually give up.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    One thing that really irks me about F2P are the typical limitations.  I cant stand currency limitations or chat limitations.  There's all sorts of others too, such as inventory, making a guild, all that stuff.  Almost to the point you are handicapped and thats just not enjoyable. 

     

    So sure Id mess around with Swtor some if it went F2P and I can deal with a cash shop even a pay to win one in that type of game.  What I cant stand are the limitations and if that game has those, I wont generally mess with it.  I was kind of looking forward to playing STO again when it went F2P but then I saw the limitations and never even tried going back in. 

     

    Its just not worth it. 

  • StrixMaximaStrixMaxima SPosts: 884Member
    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Scary stuff.

    It certainly did not take long to get to this sad situation. My prediction for SWTOR was way off to say the least. This is like a troll's wet dream. What really bothers me, though, is how well these P2P converted to F2P titles do in the mid to long term. We have all heard about the population surges when DDO and LOTRO (for example) made the switch. But how do they actually fare when father time has had a little go at them? I never seem to come across any real information regarding the current health of these types of games. Odd that.

    Turbine's titles have been F2P now for a while, and they have VERY healthy populations. Servers swelled, now ones were created, and it is a merry deal for both parts. I am a Founder for LotRO, and I think it was a very good chage for the game, as a whole.

    New expansions just hit (DDO's Underdark) or are about to hit (LOtRO's Rohan). Content has been fairly steady, meaning they have a good income source to keep Devs employed and busy.

    Currently, the F2P model is king. Aion is now healthy, and many other dying titles got a new lease of life with it. We can argue whatever we want, but the games are running and people are playing. The only title I have no idea about is AoC. I might give it a whirl one of these days. The Dark Templar was an entertaining class.

    Let's hope GW2 is successful. If so, it will put a lot of pressure in the MMO world, and developers will need to be savvier about their business plans, from now on.

  • TerrorizorTerrorizor Red Beer, ABPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by sonoggi
    Originally posted by karmath
    Originally posted by darker70

    I called this months ago do i get bragging rights, image

    I called it in closed beta bro :P

    sry guys u both lose. i called it over 2 years ago, when all the reveals started. i was trolled so hard on this site, and even banned a few times just for saying it was going to fail.

    After playing KOTOR, I said that I would never pay any money for a StarWars game again. Does that count?

  • gieger808gieger808 Winston-Salem, NCPosts: 165Member
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    SWTOR is already set up for F2P with all of the legacy stuff in game, instead of spending millions of credits you could unlock stuff for money.

    Yup. I said the same thing at release. The fanboi's tore me a new one.

    It plays like a F2P. It's totally ready to go as such. From the crafting to the itemization.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,028Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Worstluck

    Whoa whoa, he's just talking about it, not necessiraly meaning the game is going to free to play.  Nice sensationalist title though!  The writing is on the wall, I will give you that :)

    Personally I do think the game will move into some kind of freemium model, BUT not quite yet.  I imagine by the time they get around to adding that new planet and new race, we may very well have to purchase those.  I could totally seem them making the game f2p, then charge for those, then piss off the remaining players.  Just seems like a BW thing to do as of late.

    Yeah, they will probably try a few more things before doing this but unless they completely change multiplayer in the game it will happen.

    Sorry, but the game should have been B2P like Guildwars from the beginning, while it isn´t a bad game it is just like GW it isn´t massive enough for a monthly fee, all the focus are on soloplaying.

  • DeathspankDeathspank Memphis, TNPosts: 137Member Common

    Granted he's only talking about it and there's no guarantee that it will go free to play(RIFT seems to be holding it's own), but i do think we are looking at a paradigm shift in the industry here. Publishers are gonna realise that a p2p model is no longer feasable and it's easier to have a free to play model. 

     

    I honestly hope Guild Wars 2 does really well, so it drives this point even further. People have tried to mimic WoW's success and failed but they've gone about it the wrong way. If you can offer the same level of entertaiment without a monthly fee, i am sure even Blizzard's WoW and "Titan" will be forced to adopt this model.

     

    Sure there are cons here as well, like the ability to "buy power" from in-game cash shops. But if a dev is smart they can stay away such things.   

     

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by StringBased

    http://www.gamestm.co.uk/discuss/star-wars-the-old-republic-we-are-looking-at-free-to-play-says-lead-designer/

     

    Yes, he doesn't say they are definately going free to play, but let's be honest...

     

    [mod edit - edited title]

    And here is why they are thinking about this. Archeage, GW2, and Neverwinter. Yes even Neverwinter has caught their eye. They know that F2P games are extremely profitable. 

    why you say? Because todays majority gamers switch from game to game because they like to and because of the economy.

    Those of us who were against the subscription models tried to tell you folks, early on we had post after post about games that were sub only changing to F2P. If BW does this, it will prove us right and you won't hear the end of it from me.

  • OBK1OBK1 BorPosts: 637Member

    I had fun in this game for a while, really liked the stories. Voiceovers, a nice touch but hardly ground breaking. Everything else pretty lackluster after a month or two. I recently returned but only lasted a few weeks. I had high hopes and I can enjoy both sandboxes and theme parks. 

    But even for a theme park Swtor is pretty lacking. It is very much wow (not even) in space, with lightsabers, but with poorer pvp, super on rail etc. And space, where is the space combat, the real one that is?

    Going f2p might save the game long term, but it will be a poor game because once they go f2p they will develop very different things compared to what they should really focus on.

    I was happy with the game the first month, but I have to give in  to the doomsayers back then - you were correct!

  • wrightstufwrightstuf Carlsbad, CAPosts: 655Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by darker70

    I called this months ago do i get bragging rights, image

    you called what?  nothing has changed

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon

    From what i've seen so far, the problems at SW;TOR have absolutely nothing to do with the subscription model used to finance the game, the problems are all related to the game itself, from grouping mechanics, to lack of any real end game, or at least enough of it to keep it interesting past a few months. Changing to F2P before these issues are sorted out would not generate any extra revenue, but it would increase the service costs to maintain the current game, which is a losing principle any way you look at it, once the game is sorted out, that will be the time to look at possibly changing the subscription model, but to be honest, if they do that, they could probably increase the monthly subs a bit image

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA
    Originally posted by Z3R01

    That would be great.

    They would fill up those 150+ dead servers in a week if they did.

    No they wouldn't.

    But what Free to Play would do is secure SW:TOR's existance for years to come, rather than bleeding to death like it is now.

     

    Gentlemen, keep your pants up, please, the lady hasn't dropped her knickers, yet.

    First, there is very little information in that interview, especially in regards to any timeline i.e. when the interview was actually done. The "F2P" may act May of course not be the case...)

    ually be the F2Plvl15 BW has already confirmed.

    Second, in what way would going F2P be better for BW/EA than sticking with a subscription model?

    Consider the worst scenario: thanks to the f2Plvl15 worldwide (so including zones where it was up until now not available) 50K players come to SWTOR. They play up to lvl15. 10K even decide to stay on past the lvl15 just to see how their story turns out.

    That is 10K times $15 = $150k

    Of course, these player numbers are random but I think they are at the very low end of what will happen.

    Afterall, The reality is that pretty much everybody will confirm that you can - even following the story - level your char/complete the story in less than 30 days. Though actually what BW/EA would be doing is giving the full game experience (within limits i.e. levelling up alts, legacy, etc.) for the low price of $15. Don't tell me you wouldn't jump on that? (small note: I'm obviously assuming that once F2Plvl15 is active you actually don't need to buy the box/full game anymore, just activate a subscription.

    Anyhow, now how much would BW/EA get when they actually went F2P?

    Without an item mall in place: nothing. and considering the information released till now of what comes after 1.3 I don't see anything on the horizon that scream "item shop material": we have 1 new companion confirm that is quest based obtained. So, unless you want to start suggesting that companions can either be re-skinned via the item shop (currently free option in game) or actually switched (huge problem as that would mess up the class storylines!), the best I could think of is adding "neutral" companions i.e. different ship droid, basically just for showing off - hey, isn't me new C7-BA cool? - or as additional labour force for crafting...

    The most important thing everybody seems to be forgetting though is IP!

    Guess why WAR hasn't gone F2P? Because that way EA can still say that they are making money of GW's IP (that is Games Workshop, not Guild Bores!). Which in turn gave them the right to use the same IP for a F2P (item shop) version:  WoH.

    Now, imagine EA/BW was to tell LA that they failed with the SW IP MMO. LA may pull EA/SW's rights to use the SW IP. Which in turn would mean that BW couldn't think about KOTOR3 - and let's be fair: many SWTOR haters still say that if SWTOR had been KOTOR3 they would have found it okay/good.

    So, BW/EA would be dumb to endanger that option in their portfolio...

    Plus, don't forget the most basic fact: SWTOR is still one of the P2P with the largest number of subscribers - last confirmed was 2nd biggest after WoW with 1+ Mio active subscriptions.

    Doesn't matter if they are all playing or not, as long as they are paying ;-)

    So, keep dreaming your F2P dreams, but don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen or you'll be dead by the time GW2 is released...

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member
    Originally posted by Trol1
    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA
    Originally posted by Z3R01

    That would be great.

    They would fill up those 150+ dead servers in a week if they did.

    No they wouldn't.

    But what Free to Play would do is secure SW:TOR's existance for years to come, rather than bleeding to death like it is now.

     

    Gentlemen, keep your pants up, please, the lady hasn't dropped her knickers, yet.

    First, there is very little information in that interview, especially in regards to any timeline i.e. when the interview was actually done. The "F2P" may act May of course not be the case...)

    ually be the F2Plvl15 BW has already confirmed.

    Second, in what way would going F2P be better for BW/EA than sticking with a subscription model?

    Consider the worst scenario: thanks to the f2Plvl15 worldwide (so including zones where it was up until now not available) 50K players come to SWTOR. They play up to lvl15. 10K even decide to stay on past the lvl15 just to see how their story turns out.

    That is 10K times $15 = $150k

    Of course, these player numbers are random but I think they are at the very low end of what will happen.

    Afterall, The reality is that pretty much everybody will confirm that you can - even following the story - level your char/complete the story in less than 30 days. Though actually what BW/EA would be doing is giving the full game experience (within limits i.e. levelling up alts, legacy, etc.) for the low price of $15. Don't tell me you wouldn't jump on that? (small note: I'm obviously assuming that once F2Plvl15 is active you actually don't need to buy the box/full game anymore, just activate a subscription.

    Anyhow, now how much would BW/EA get when they actually went F2P?

    Without an item mall in place: nothing. and considering the information released till now of what comes after 1.3 I don't see anything on the horizon that scream "item shop material": we have 1 new companion confirm that is quest based obtained. So, unless you want to start suggesting that companions can either be re-skinned via the item shop (currently free option in game) or actually switched (huge problem as that would mess up the class storylines!), the best I could think of is adding "neutral" companions i.e. different ship droid, basically just for showing off - hey, isn't me new C7-BA cool? - or as additional labour force for crafting...

    The most important thing everybody seems to be forgetting though is IP!

    Guess why WAR hasn't gone F2P? Because that way EA can still say that they are making money of GW's IP (that is Games Workshop, not Guild Bores!). Which in turn gave them the right to use the same IP for a F2P (item shop) version:  WoH.

    Now, imagine EA/BW was to tell LA that they failed with the SW IP MMO. LA may pull EA/SW's rights to use the SW IP. Which in turn would mean that BW couldn't think about KOTOR3 - and let's be fair: many SWTOR haters still say that if SWTOR had been KOTOR3 they would have found it okay/good.

    So, BW/EA would be dumb to endanger that option in their portfolio...

    Plus, don't forget the most basic fact: SWTOR is still one of the P2P with the largest number of subscribers - last confirmed was 2nd biggest after WoW with 1+ Mio active subscriptions.

    Doesn't matter if they are all playing or not, as long as they are paying ;-)

    So, keep dreaming your F2P dreams, but don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen or you'll be dead by the time GW2 is released...

     

    Yea but you left out one little fact.  They are considering it.  Why would they do that?  But they are. 

     

    F2P has been shown to be very successful for some games who have dropping subscribers.  Or rather, people subscribe and dont keep doing so.  Meaning that income is not constant or consistant. 

     

    If Tor went F2P it would have an item shop.  Thats certain.  New players would be coming in all the time, and some or at least half would buy a few things before they stopped playing after a month.  And by new players I mean a LOT of new players.  People will try anything once, and thats why this kind of model works for some games, especially ones without a great deal of longivity. 

     

    I agree that subs can be VERY profitable so you do have a point.  A good one too.  As long as they are making decent money at least by doing so F2P wont happen nor should it from a financial standpoint.  However if they are not having players continue to subscribe and they are dropping the game after a few payments, the hope becomes by making it F2P with an item mall will cause a great deal of people to flood into the game in the hopes they will buy from an item shop. 

     

    Then there's the F2P model that gives restrictions but still offers a sub fee.  The restrictions are generally horrible and most F2P games do this.  The hope is that someone will come in, try it, get frustrated with the limitations such as currency limit, inventory limit, etc that they will start paying a sub fee to lift restrictions.  Which I hate with all my heart.  Game isnt quite good enough to attract a lot of subscribers, so lets keep subscriptions but make F2P so bogged down with silly restrictions people will be tempted to subscribe!  I hate any publisher or dev that tries to get money out of me by frustrating me while Im trying to seek entertainment.  Not frustrations. 

     

    And if Swtor goes F2P (and it probably will at some point) all of the above is probably whats going to happen.  I'll play a F2P game with an item mall (even pay to win) because its just to pass some time when Im bored and I dont care.  But I hardly ever touch one with severe F2P limitations.  Just not my thing at all.  Wont even touch it. 

     

    Anyways, they are thinking about doing it.  Or have discussed it.  So if Swtor was doing so well, they'd never even talk about it.  They'd just laugh if anyone mentioned it.  Tell a Blizzard exec that WoW needs to go F2P and he's start howling with laughter and people would have to help him get off the floor after half an hour of slapping him in the face.  

    Swtor is not doing all that well especially compared to the money spent on it.  They may have had some profit and the money coming in may have finally exceeded development and advertising costs.  But if it has the profit has not been great.  I can promise you they are looking at alternatives to keep the game alive. 

     

    My only fear is that I dont want people to suddenly hate their game they love because of some F2P converstion that includes an item shop, maybe even pay to win, and a bunch of restrictions on the F2P players.  That would be a nightmare for some Swtor faithful.  I dont like the game but I dont want those that do to suddenly start hating it because its turned into a cash grab mess. 

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    I hope this is a lesson to the windbags who  often called critics just plain haters....you guys have to learn a lot. Some have seen through this disaster wheras others were looking through rose-colored glases. A similar arrogance within the community  like it happened with other hyped games in the last years on these forums.

    But I know one thing for sure, some wont never learn and you will see similar overhyped things in the future. Wake up and stay a smart consumer and not a manipulated following the herd instinct.

  • WicoaWicoa LondonPosts: 1,602Member Uncommon

    If daoc and war are not F2P yet I highly doubt swtor will be the first.

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by Corehaven

     

    Yea but you left out one little fact.  They are considering it.  Why would they do that?  But they are. 

     

    F2P has been shown to be very successful for some games who have dropping subscribers.  Or rather, people subscribe and dont keep doing so.  Meaning that income is not constant or consistant. 

     

    If Tor went F2P it would have an item shop.  Thats certain.  New players would be coming in all the time, and some or at least half would buy a few things before they stopped playing after a month.  And by new players I mean a LOT of new players.  People will try anything once, and thats why this kind of model works for some games, especially ones without a great deal of longivity. 

     

    I agree that subs can be VERY profitable so you do have a point.  A good one too.  As long as they are making decent money at least by doing so F2P wont happen nor should it from a financial standpoint.  However if they are not having players continue to subscribe and they are dropping the game after a few payments, the hope becomes by making it F2P with an item mall will cause a great deal of people to flood into the game in the hopes they will buy from an item shop. 

     

    Then there's the F2P model that gives restrictions but still offers a sub fee.  The restrictions are generally horrible and most F2P games do this.  The hope is that someone will come in, try it, get frustrated with the limitations such as currency limit, inventory limit, etc that they will start paying a sub fee to lift restrictions.  Which I hate with all my heart.  Game isnt quite good enough to attract a lot of subscribers, so lets keep subscriptions but make F2P so bogged down with silly restrictions people will be tempted to subscribe!  I hate any publisher or dev that tries to get money out of me by frustrating me while Im trying to seek entertainment.  Not frustrations. 

     

    And if Swtor goes F2P (and it probably will at some point) all of the above is probably whats going to happen.  I'll play a F2P game with an item mall (even pay to win) because its just to pass some time when Im bored and I dont care.  But I hardly ever touch one with severe F2P limitations.  Just not my thing at all.  Wont even touch it. 

     

    Anyways, they are thinking about doing it.  Or have discussed it.  So if Swtor was doing so well, they'd never even talk about it.  They'd just laugh if anyone mentioned it.  Tell a Blizzard exec that WoW needs to go F2P and he's start howling with laughter and people would have to help him get off the floor after half an hour of slapping him in the face.  

    Swtor is not doing all that well especially compared to the money spent on it.  They may have had some profit and the money coming in may have finally exceeded development and advertising costs.  But if it has the profit has not been great.  I can promise you they are looking at alternatives to keep the game alive. 

     

    My only fear is that I dont want people to suddenly hate their game they love because of some F2P converstion that includes an item shop, maybe even pay to win, and a bunch of restrictions on the F2P players.  That would be a nightmare for some Swtor faithful.  I dont like the game but I dont want those that do to suddenly start hating it because its turned into a cash grab mess. 

    "Considering something" means pretty much nothing!

    I mean obviously they have considered some form(s) of F2P otherwise we wouldn't be seeing F2Plvl15 coming our way.

    That guy who actually suggested that SWTOR goes full F2P may now have his hands full carrying coffee while the guy who pointed out that they have sold all the boxes they can expect to sell and should therefore void the box cost (by going F2Plvl15) may now get to oggle his new secretary's jugglies a couple of times a day.

    Anyhow, there are certain flaws in your F2P concept:

    I myself have played F2P games. And I have bought at item shops. But, well, the total over probably 5 years and about a dozen F2P games comes to about $20.

    So, what makes you think that any player (not to mention half as you claim) who just come in for 30 days of gaming will invest any money into items in SWTOR? Especially considering how limited the P2W factor actually is on the PvE side of SWTOR?

    You may potentially would have, I'm pretty sure I won't.

    We are representative in what way?

    I short: going F2P and counting on making money via an item shop is a huge risk. And more importantly: as I said, right now BW has made no indication that any content that is in the works will actually be considered/suitable for an itemshop.

    Just think "space station attack": most people consider the space missions to be flawed in the first place, why would they waste money on another flawed item if they can't even be arsed to play the free content?

    You are basing your "F2P will save SWTOR thru the item shop" idea exclusively on people actually wanting to buy something.

    Forgive me for saying so but your prognosis of "half" the incoming players buying something and yet at the same time you failing to even make any suggestion what it could be that people are buying, well, that seem like a desperate try to justify your desire to see SWTOR as full F2P.

    We out here don't know what is being discussed behind open and not so open boardroom doors at EA and BW.

    It may even be a completely new model that they are coming up with where you have to sell your firstborn ;-)

    The thing is that whatever will happen, I trust that none of the SWTOR players need a knight in shining armour standing up for them, protecting them from the evil of certain business models. You enter into a contract and it's your choice to sign it in blood or printer ink or to pass it on. It's what you expect of adults... to make choices, the right choices, for them ;-)

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Corehaven

    One thing that really irks me about F2P are the typical limitations.  I cant stand currency limitations or chat limitations.  There's all sorts of others too, such as inventory, making a guild, all that stuff.  Almost to the point you are handicapped and thats just not enjoyable. 

     

    So sure Id mess around with Swtor some if it went F2P and I can deal with a cash shop even a pay to win one in that type of game.  What I cant stand are the limitations and if that game has those, I wont generally mess with it.  I was kind of looking forward to playing STO again when it went F2P but then I saw the limitations and never even tried going back in. 

     

    Its just not worth it. 

    Yeah, I saw that shit when I logged in my old EQ accounts after it went F2P.

     

    Having established characters, I didnt have to worry about class/race restrictions. The money/AA limit though was in full effect.

     

    I got a sneaky feeling that if they do look convert a F2P system, they packed as many of us subs on server in the hope folks will stick with a premium service. Use the freed up servers for the free folks. I doubt I hang around if it goes F2P. I will more than likely finish the class stories, then be on my way.

     

    The article was pulled, so no clue what the status of things are. I thought Daniel Erickson was be the one to talk about this stuff anyways, but according to what I read, more info would be available in GamerTM magazine's next issue IIRC.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,081Member Uncommon

    The question, however, that wasn't answered is: what has changed in the 6 months since SWTOR launched?

    EA knew there was pressure fron F2P games launched by themselves, Zynga and others. EA knew that WoW has lost some subs (remarkably few all things considered) and that Blizzard were introducing an annual pass which, allowing for the copy of D3 included, reduced the average monthly cost to $7.50.

    EA knew all of this and launched SWTOR as a subscription based game anyway. Whichever way you look at it EA failed. Things have not changes that much since SWTOR launched.

    What EA are still failing to accept is that SWTOR, as a lasting mmo, is a failure. F2P is not the way forward for it imo; no sub and paid DLC is what they should introduce. 

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