Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.
Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.
Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.
1) Generated and player created content requires a lot more initial work. Once they are functional though they require a lot less long term work, because players will be creating situations and content can be reused with generation. Each game is different, but in general I can't see any reason that someone could claim a sandbox would cost them more money to produce than a theme park game.
2) Not hiding that I'm a developer, I think it's relatively well known. I post semi-regularly in the pub on various topics. The only time I've ever felt the need to identify myself is when answering questions about the game in comments threads, etc. The things I said about Kickstarter a generalized things.
Having been making indie games for many years now, and having worked on Repop for the past four years probably gives me a bit more of a perspective from the indie side of things and on maximizing your dollar. But not all of the people kickstarting these projects are newcomers. In the past few months we've seen a new Wasteland, Leisure Suit Larry, Shadowrun games get funded, as well as projects from the creators of SpaceQuest and Monkey Isle receive funding. And certainly not all of them are people who were rejected by publishers (as someone here suggested) either.
There are some harsh realities on how game publishing works:
The publisher generally advances the funds, and take a large chunk of the royalties for that investment. Your advance must be paid back before you see any royalties. This is why you often here that most games don't make money. Often developers don't make back enough royalties and they turn to their next game and a new advance.
Developers generally get their advances in installments. They have milestones to get the next deal. If things go poorly in development, they often are forced to launch before they are ready. Sometimes games get cancelled. Sometimes creative control is lost. Many of the decisions behind the scenes are not in the control of the developer's, but in the hands of publisher's who may not be on the same page as them.
From a developer's standpoint you don't really want to deal with any of that... but for years that was the only way to get your game on shelves. With electronic distribution that is less of a problem than it was in the past. It's still a route many people go down though because it gives them exposure and often funds their development. That's not going to change.
Where Kickstarter changes that, is that it gives developers a viable alternative to publishers and venture capitolists. And it allows them to take more risks than publishers may be willing to take. There's a reason there are so many wow-like MMOs these days. Half of that because that is seen as a proven formula. The other half is that investors want to invest in the safe bet. That doesn't mean sandbox or outside of the box MMOs can't get published. There are opportunities out there, but they come with strings attached.
My personal thoughts on Kickstarter is that it's a good thing. That doesn't mean I'm going to go through and put money on every game idea out there, or that anyone else should either. Any time you spend money you should do your homework. I can understand people being skeptical about how they spend their hard earned cash.
I don't really understand the resentment towards Kickstarter though, or people who like to condascend others for contributing to projects. There are generally good incentives from most projects, which allows players to get some added value for their contributions when the game ships. Obviously it doesn't do you much good if the game doesn't ship, but that's where using your head and choosing your projects wisely comes into play.
Thanks JC appreciate the input considering your busy scedhule communication like this is the one of many reasons I backed Repop.
@mOAKY7 As above this is a typical post from The Co-owner and if you check out the forums and Kickstarter, there is no way they are hideing anything the teams honesty is pretty much their major plus factor among many.
I had never seen/noticed the person post before until the night I quoted them. Unlike some, I dont spend my time on active/pre launch game forums to troll them. If I do go it is to read, and occasionally make a comment. I was doing some reading about the Owen class announcement, and saw a couple of other threads was only reason I knew person.
The only thing I had really seen of the game prior was from the trolls carrying that tag in the TOR forums. They actually do a lot of spouting off about TOR, and subs, for someone knocking door to door hoping to get their style of game made.
Anyways the Devs seem like decent chaps....pity their game is attracting some unsavory types, but that is their problem.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
@Gdemani: In all honesty each of the things you just mentioned: Cinematics, Voice Overs, and Phasing is all possible with generated systems. They are also a big part of the reason TOR's budget ran so high. I for one, enjoyed the quality of their cinematics. But I also skipped by most of them, like many other players.
I'd guess that indie projects aren't likely going to be fully voicing their games. Too much money for not enough gain. That having been said, it is entirely possible with a generated system. We actually added support for it just before GDC. You assign each NPC in the game a different voice font. You then compile a list of all the major things that need to be said, and the mission or chat bubbles play the best fit. You can actually see that TOR did this, except for the voice fonts. Some of your storyline characters had certain phrases they would say multiple times. So it is possible, but budget constraints will likely prevent it for most titles.
Cinematics are actually very doable with generated missions. Your talking about client side FX here. They are easier to do with static quests because you can set up the cameras exactly how you want them and they will always be perfect. I can tell you that some of Repop's generated missions do use cinematic effects though, and how it works is you instead center the camera based on the player or NPCs location, and then you offset it and adjust for obstacles. It does allow you to do things like zoom or pan the camera, look at an object, etc, even in fully generated missions.
Phasing is a form of instancing that modifies your spatial awareness. Again that is very possible in a generated system because basically your talking about seamless instancing. You could even generate the NPCs, traps and objects inside of a phase.
That having been said, you aren't likely to match TOR's high quality cinematic effects with a much smaller budget. They had a lot of good people working on the title (over 600). It's one of the features that made their game stand out. But I'm not sure if we'll see that kind of budget again in an MMO in a long time.
Progress moving forward in an MMO is tied to short term goals and advancing your character. It's not tied to having the same story in the same order as every other player of your class. That is how it often occurs in modern theme park games. But the core thing is that players want to max level (or max a skill line). In a game that has 50 levels, your first end goal is 50. Then your end goal is gearing up to the best gear. Quests are what gets you to 50. When MMOs post-wow have run metrics, they find that players usually skip the long details quests in exchange for the quickest form of experience. They also skip the quest text in most cases, and just go by the quest helper's immediate goals.
Generators can provide you those same advantages. They can be automatically tailored or scaled to your characters preferences or skill sets. They can be filtered by area. They can be chained. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Last but not least, on the original topic. You keep harping on donating. If your getting something in return then you aren't donating. Your pre-ordering, or your purchasing something else. It would depend on what the pledge levels of that game were offering. As far as donating to an "idea" rather than a product though. I have to wonder if you even bothered to look at some of the Kickstarter pages. In some products, that is the case, in many others they are games that are far along in development. Some are funding demo apps or such, but many were already partially through development before Kickstarter began being seen as a viable option.
Is Kickstarter changing MMOs? Not yet. Will it? Maybe someday soon. Cloud funding potentially allows a wild array of unique and creative works to escape from nowhere into the light of day. Some will fail. Some will succeed. Some projects will be a complete fraud, and others still will he technically complete yet severely flawed.
MMOs though? Herein lies the problem MMOs have complex network and security requirements these days, and it will be hard to run such a game on thr limited budgets often seen on Kickstarter.
So, while it would be a nice dream to see the market flood with inspired indie MMOs, it's nowhere near the realm of plausible reality at this time... and if a project leader tells you otherwise, don't buy into the hype.
Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
Originally posted by Souldrainer Is Kickstarter changing MMOs? Not yet. Will it? Maybe someday soon. Cloud funding potentially allows a wild array of unique and creative works to escape from nowhere into the light of day. Some will fail. Some will succeed. Some projects will be a complete fraud, and others still will he technically complete yet severely flawed. MMOs though? Herein lies the problem MMOs have complex network and security requirements these days, and it will be hard to run such a game on thr limited budgets often seen on Kickstarter. So, while it would be a nice dream to see the market flood with inspired indie MMOs, it's nowhere near the realm of plausible reality at this time... and if a project leader tells you otherwise, don't buy into the hype.
Fair points there,but i'm sure you have read all the posts by JC regarding Repop which show we have professionals here Xerves /Josh,is a systems analyst and i think JC is a database analytical analyst no doubt JC will correct me on that one,so by this i trust their judgement implicitly this is why they changed the engine to Hero during mid development as no doubt they saw the benefits of Hero,not sure if the other games i mentioned use Hero or not only game i tested with Hero was Dominus.
Other than that the Hero engine used by SWTOR and this is not trolling is not the one used by Repop ,Bioware gutted it for their own use and is not updated by the Hero devs in any way,but with Repop and others the difference is Hero/Idea Fabrik provide server/security and as far as i know full support during the Beta stages as well with Hero indie devs buy the whole package this is why it is popular as it allows splintered teams to work together at the same time and provides support during the games development.
I think this link show's the benefits and all the issues you mention seem to be covered by the package regarding Repop,so in conjunction with a Kickstarter option they seem to be a perfect match.
Originally posted by jpnzIf I want to build a house or a boat or a building, I would normally pay someone to build one for me.
And that would involve a contract, legal liability and warranty.
Get it?
Originally posted by JC-SmithIn all honesty each of the things you just mentioned: Cinematics, Voice Overs, and Phasing is all possible with generated systems. .... Last but not least, on the original topic. You keep harping on donating. If your getting something in return then you aren't donating. Your pre-ordering, or your purchasing something else. It would depend on what the pledge levels of that game were offering. As far as donating to an "idea" rather than a product though. I have to wonder if you even bothered to look at some of the Kickstarter pages. In some products, that is the case, in many others they are games that are far along in development. Some are funding demo apps or such, but many were already partially through development before Kickstarter began being seen as a viable option.
1) I should have been more clear...
What I had on mind is elemental difference between quest and storyline. Generated quests are individual, generic templates. Story lines on the other hand are coherent, continuous content with clear beginning and end. And that is a reason why they need to be done manually and are so much more work than generated quests.
That was my point, when you said that generated quests require more work.
2) Well, I do get a badge, cookie, candle or similar trinket for donating a charity, it is still donation tho.
To correct you, you are not pre-ordering anything on Kickstarter as you are not purchasing anything. You donate, pledge with no liability to fulfill your promises.
No investor would ever grant you a penny based on information type and conditions being presented on Kickstarter, why anyone else should?
I guess it is pretty clear why people are turning to Kickstarter funding rather than looking for investment into their business.
Supporting promises instead of products will only encourage more promises, regardless whether any product will ever be delivered or it's quality.
Once SEC is done with DODD-Frank, I guess they will turn their attention to crowdfunding anyway, hehe
Originally posted by Souldrainer Is Kickstarter changing MMOs? Not yet. Will it? Maybe someday soon. Cloud funding potentially allows a wild array of unique and creative works to escape from nowhere into the light of day. Some will fail. Some will succeed. Some projects will be a complete fraud, and others still will he technically complete yet severely flawed. MMOs though? Herein lies the problem MMOs have complex network and security requirements these days, and it will be hard to run such a game on thr limited budgets often seen on Kickstarter. So, while it would be a nice dream to see the market flood with inspired indie MMOs, it's nowhere near the realm of plausible reality at this time... and if a project leader tells you otherwise, don't buy into the hype.
The cash they are generate on kickstarter is not the hole budget for the game, it would probally be used to build a proof of concept and help show investors that people are really interested in the game. Or like with the repopulation tis to help finish some things off and polish the game up..
Saying that MMORPGs do not need to be expensive to make infact technically it could all be done for nothing.
Taking the Hero Cloud for instance, its free so no initial up front costs all you need to do is learn the Hero script language and how to use the world building tools. If you get to a stage where you need to release the people behind the hero engine will host it all and help you set everything up. For 3d models and stuff you could use blender thats totally free, you can source textures from cgtextures for nothing or make your own using your digital camera and GIMP..
A group of talented people willing to put the time in can make an MMORPG with next to no budget..
Yes its a lot of work dont get me wrong but all these AAA companies spending millinos on MMORPGs are just crazy.. considering they are just copying what has come before..
Originally posted by Souldrainer Is Kickstarter changing MMOs? Not yet. Will it? Maybe someday soon. Cloud funding potentially allows a wild array of unique and creative works to escape from nowhere into the light of day. Some will fail. Some will succeed. Some projects will be a complete fraud, and others still will he technically complete yet severely flawed. MMOs though? Herein lies the problem MMOs have complex network and security requirements these days, and it will be hard to run such a game on thr limited budgets often seen on Kickstarter. So, while it would be a nice dream to see the market flood with inspired indie MMOs, it's nowhere near the realm of plausible reality at this time... and if a project leader tells you otherwise, don't buy into the hype.
The cash they are generate on kickstarter is not the hole budget for the game, it would probally be used to build a proof of concept and help show investors that people are really interested in the game. Or like with the repopulation tis to help finish some things off and polish the game up..
Saying that MMORPGs do not need to be expensive to make infact technically it could all be done for nothing.
Taking the Hero Cloud for instance, its free so no initial up front costs all you need to do is learn the Hero script language and how to use the world building tools. If you get to a stage where you need to release the people behind the hero engine will host it all and help you set everything up. For 3d models and stuff you could use blender thats totally free, you can source textures from cgtextures for nothing or make your own using your digital camera and GIMP..
A group of talented people willing to put the time in can make an MMORPG with next to no budget..
Yes its a lot of work dont get me wrong but all these AAA companies spending millinos on MMORPGs are just crazy.. considering they are just copying what has come before..
Originally posted by Souldrainer Is Kickstarter changing MMOs? Not yet. Will it? Maybe someday soon. Cloud funding potentially allows a wild array of unique and creative works to escape from nowhere into the light of day. Some will fail. Some will succeed. Some projects will be a complete fraud, and others still will he technically complete yet severely flawed. MMOs though? Herein lies the problem MMOs have complex network and security requirements these days, and it will be hard to run such a game on thr limited budgets often seen on Kickstarter. So, while it would be a nice dream to see the market flood with inspired indie MMOs, it's nowhere near the realm of plausible reality at this time... and if a project leader tells you otherwise, don't buy into the hype.
The cash they are generate on kickstarter is not the hole budget for the game, it would probally be used to build a proof of concept and help show investors that people are really interested in the game. Or like with the repopulation tis to help finish some things off and polish the game up..
Saying that MMORPGs do not need to be expensive to make infact technically it could all be done for nothing.
Taking the Hero Cloud for instance, its free so no initial up front costs all you need to do is learn the Hero script language and how to use the world building tools. If you get to a stage where you need to release the people behind the hero engine will host it all and help you set everything up. For 3d models and stuff you could use blender thats totally free, you can source textures from cgtextures for nothing or make your own using your digital camera and GIMP..
A group of talented people willing to put the time in can make an MMORPG with next to no budget..
Yes its a lot of work dont get me wrong but all these AAA companies spending millinos on MMORPGs are just crazy.. considering they are just copying what has come before..
That doesn't mean it's "free".
"Time is money, friend!"
All depends how people are working on the game, maybe they just work for free in their spare time and so on.. sure its no the best way to work and of course will take a lot longer but it was just an example of what could be done really.. so yeah it could be free or there abouts..
But i think i need to go back to my statement about the Hero Engine being free, it appears for be $99 a year now, but my team might have signed up for it when it was free.. so i just assumed it was still free LOL
Originally posted by darker70But the power is now with the people and not in the hands of greedy executives who for example broke many a devs heart when cutting their ideas,as they had the power and not the devs but if the devs have the money which is basically power then like i said before they can forge their own destiny it may take longer and yes it may fail but at least they now have a viable option as the economy is shot to pieces so they will find it hard to get a bank loan or find investors the old fashioned way.
Sounds like Mortal Online...
If that is what people want, I have no problem with that. But I somehow doubt that people got the same game they were dreaming of(based on devs promises) before it was released...
With the money Im seeing on some of the more professional projects, I see no reason one cant build a $ 200k or so prototype and use Kickstarter to finance the remainder of the game.
A coworker and I were discussing how it might 'seem' a game company would get more donations if they had something to prove they knew what they were doing, like a prototype.
Unfortunately, there seems to be alot of hype for vaporware and reality might not sell as well.
With the money Im seeing on some of the more professional projects, I see no reason one cant build a $ 200k or so prototype and use Kickstarter to finance the remainder of the game.
A coworker and I were discussing how it might 'seem' a game company would get more donations if they had something to prove they knew what they were doing, like a prototype.
Unfortunately, there seems to be alot of hype for vaporware and reality might not sell as well.
-blitz
Along these same lines, I could see maybe a small team building a prototype, and funding a "test" via Kickstarter. Developing your servers, etc is one thing, but having the funding for data center space, bandwidth, servers, etc is another. Build a prototype and then fund a public "deployment test" via Kickstarter.
Fact is a generated quest can be just as complex as a static quest.
...
I'm not sure where you think that any game doesn't need money to be completed.
1) That is no fact, that is an opinion and complexity isn't everything. Try to make storylines like SWTOR has with some quests generator - with voice-overs, cut scenes, phasing, etc.
I do not think actions are a motivator. What drives players running quests in narrated content is progression - the sense you are moving somewhere. This is unlike to be provided by quest generator.
You are comparing two things strictly mechanics wise but they both have very different purpose and role.
2) I explicitly said that any business needs funding, didn't I? Do you consider game development not a business? Fair enough, but do not ask money for the product once it is released though.
Do not take me wrong, I fully understand your perception of someone running a business - you just try to gather any money you can. That is absolutely fine but I say that from a donator perspective, you will unlikely find a reasonable justification for the donation(especially one that does not even have a product to offer yet).
The truth is, there comes a responsibility and expectations with an investment, with donation there is none. Donations encourage irresponsible business.
Originally posted by jpnz
Using this logic, how does anyone build a house / boat etc?
Not sure what you mean...
Sole purpose of a business is to make money.
If you are not making money, your business deserves to be closed. If you are making money, there is no need for donation.
Funding a starting business is still a part of the business and it is no exception to the rule. In your previous post you argued that Kickstarter may provide sign of demand but such argument is false.
What people are donating is idea, not the product nor business. Those are very different things.
When you are investing money, you are not funding ideas but ability to utilize the idea and turning it into profit - we talk business here.
You can have a fantastic idea for the best game ever(in your personal opinion) but if your numbers behind your business do not fit, your idea is very much worthless and your business does not deserve to exist. Why supporting such behavior?
Gdemami,
It's not like Kickstarter is being utilized to fund shoe stores or Walmarts, etc. These projects aren't just businesses, they are creative works. Creative works have a long and well established tradition of seeking donation (patronage) for thier creation. Some of the greatest works of art or muisic of all time owe thier existance to such practices.
People fund them for the same reason, they donate money toward cleaning up a vacant lot and turning it into a park, or drop a few dollars into the hat of a guy playing muisic on the street corner or buy paint supplies for the guy painting a mural on the side of a building. They do it because it pleases them and they want to be able to enjoy it some day. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would argue that most of the people behind these Kickstarter projects do more real "work" and bring more true value to the world then an army of wall street day traders who do nothing all day to make thier millions then click on a computer button to buy a stock, hold onto it for 5 seconds and click on it again to sell and cash in.
The sole purpose of a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE is whatever the owners of that enterprise DECIDE IT SHOULD BE. That certainly can, and usualy does include making money, but it's hardly the only factor involved for privately owned businesses. If a guy loves baking and he wants to open up his own bakery, who are you to tell him he's not allowed to do so, he must open up a shoe store instead, because he'll make more money?
Furthermore, if people like the idea of what someone is trying to do and they want to contribute something to help make it happen, who are you to tell them they can't, it's thier money, they earned it, they are the ones who get to say what to do with it......and really it's no different then going out and buying a membership to a book of the month club......getting to be a small part of something they are excited about brings them enjoyment.... the Kickstarter contributer isn't doing it because they expect some financial return....they are doing it because contributing to a project brings them ENJOYMENT. It's the same motivation that buying a game has (except most games produced these days aren't all that enjoyable.)
In terms of investment funding, alot of times it has nothing to do with the worthiness of the project, it has to do with how many times projects that have done the exact same thing before have proven successfull. A project that doesn't have a beaten track to follow doesn't have much chance of finding traditional funding, regardless of it's merits, unless the person behind the project is well known. Traditional funding doesn't lead to innovation, it leads to stagnation. The Wright Bro's working today, would have had a tough time getting funding for Kittyhawk.
Lets say, you've got a surfer who has a plan to make a surf-board that's 50% better then traditional boards at the same cost. If he tries to goto a traditional investment source he's going to have a tough time getting investment for it. Why? Not because the plan won't work or won't be proffitable......because the investors don't know squat about surfing, they don't know what makes a surf-board good or bad and have no way of judging how what the entrepenuer proposes to do will work. All they can do is understand whats been done before, however if what the entrepenuer wants to do is blazing new ground or bucking "conventional wisdom" (regardless of whether it's objectively accurate or not), he's very likely to get investment. The best he can hope for is to stumble accross an Angel investor who is also a surfer and who comprehends the dynamics of what he is proposing.... that's a little bit like playing the lottery.
Furthermore, in terms of investment.....it wasn't until VERY recent legislation that the average American is legaly ALLOWED to invest in a private business, and even now the limits are pretty strict as to the thresholds which the business must be under in order to accept such investments. For example, If I WANTED to invest $500 equity into GoblinWorks because I'm enthused about it's Pathfinder Online project, I am not legally allowed to do so according to current US Law...
- It's a private enterprise and I was not one of the principle founders of the business.
- I am not an accredited investor because my net personal income has not exceeded $1 million dollars per year for the past 2 years.
- The total value of the business likely exceeds $2 million (and it's only due to legislation passed, I believe, this year that I would be allowed to invest in a business under $2 million in value).
So, if I wanted to kick some money over to GoblinWorks, Kickstarter is the ONLY legal means for me to do so. US law prevents me from investing in it, even if both I and the owners of GoblinWorks agreed that I should..... Thanks Washington, D.C.
The sole purpose of a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE is whatever the owners of that enterprise DECIDE IT SHOULD BE. That certainly can, and usualy does include making money, but it's hardly the only factor involved for privately owned businesses. If a guy loves baking and he wants to open up his own bakery, who are you to tell him he's not allowed to do so, he must open up a shoe store instead, because he'll make more money?
....
This paragraph nails it. The purpose of action is always profit, however profit does not necessarily equal money. Whether or not an enterprise is profitable is subjective, and depends on the values of those owning/running the enterprise.
2) Well, I do get a badge, cookie, candle or similar trinket for donating a charity, it is still donation tho.
To correct you, you are not pre-ordering anything on Kickstarter as you are not purchasing anything. You donate, pledge with no liability to fulfill your promises.
No investor would ever grant you a penny based on information type and conditions being presented on Kickstarter, why anyone else should?
I guess it is pretty clear why people are turning to Kickstarter funding rather than looking for investment into their business.
Supporting promises instead of products will only encourage more promises, regardless whether any product will ever be delivered or it's quality
You actually are preordering a game if you choose a pledge with a game copy as part of the reward.
Also, investors grant money for all kinds of hair brained schemes with little to nothing to show for it, and always have. See Christopher Columbus, Nikola Tesla, etc.
Not even sure why you have such a hardon against kickstarter anyway, since you obviously would never donate your money why do you care what other people do with it, or the projects that get funded by it. Or are you just being an argumentative dick just because you can?
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
10 make it to release and struggle.
80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
Overall impact? Minimal except in rare cases.
Savior of the genre? One can only hope.
Your estimation, IMHO, is way optimistics. I highly doubt there will even be 1 release. Kickstarter is just not equiped to get the large investment needed for a MMO.
Heck, has any kickstart MMO project even get to a point with a demo, not to mention a alpha?
9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
10 make it to release and struggle.
80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
Overall impact? Minimal except in rare cases.
Savior of the genre? One can only hope.
Your estimation, IMHO, is way optimistics. I highly doubt there will even be 1 release. Kickstarter is just not equiped to get the large investment needed for a MMO.
Heck, has any kickstart MMO project even get to a point with a demo, not to mention a alpha?
I have no doubt smaller MMOs can make it to market with under 10million dollars.
Make it small to start, like 10 levels, 20 models, basic gameplay. Focus on what seperates you from the other games.
Grow your fledling community by doing interviews, posting on forums, make a creative mess!
I bet you could do that with 1 million in donations.
Originally posted by EndDream It definitely has shown that there are a lot of people tired of the same old thing. But time will tell if any of these games end up good. I think archeage has the best chance followed by pathfinder.
agreed
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys FH1942 best tanker for 4years Playing WWII OL for some years untill now many other for some months
9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
10 make it to release and struggle.
80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
Overall impact? Minimal except in rare cases.
Savior of the genre? One can only hope.
Your estimation, IMHO, is way optimistics. I highly doubt there will even be 1 release. Kickstarter is just not equiped to get the large investment needed for a MMO.
Heck, has any kickstart MMO project even get to a point with a demo, not to mention a alpha?
Well seeing as how the first MMO to be funded from Kickstarter was just a few months ago, and the median development time of an MMO project is upwards of 4 years.....that's a pretty fucking stupid question
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
10 make it to release and struggle.
80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
Overall impact? Minimal except in rare cases.
Savior of the genre? One can only hope.
Your estimation, IMHO, is way optimistics. I highly doubt there will even be 1 release. Kickstarter is just not equiped to get the large investment needed for a MMO.
Heck, has any kickstart MMO project even get to a point with a demo, not to mention a alpha?
I dont know about how the KS funding is going to work for EoC and others, but The Repopulation has been entirely self funded by the Development team. It is pretty much a complete game according to A&B. They are using KS to fund the extra content (or bling) during the final stages. They are also using it so those that are interested can pre-purchase a membership at a lower price before release.
Its coming out of in-house Alpha and going into the first phase of closed public testing in the next month or so.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Quick summary: it says 41% of all kickstarters fail.
Fail = not reach stated funding goal?
And that means 59% succeed.
Whether thats reaching funding goals or succeed as a released project, its still good odds.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
10 make it to release and struggle.
80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
Overall impact? Minimal except in rare cases.
Savior of the genre? One can only hope.
Your estimation, IMHO, is way optimistics. I highly doubt there will even be 1 release. Kickstarter is just not equiped to get the large investment needed for a MMO.
Heck, has any kickstart MMO project even get to a point with a demo, not to mention a alpha?
I have no doubt smaller MMOs can make it to market with under 10million dollars.
Make it small to start, like 10 levels, 20 models, basic gameplay. Focus on what seperates you from the other games.
Grow your fledling community by doing interviews, posting on forums, make a creative mess!
I bet you could do that with 1 million in donations.
I bet you couldn't. So far, there is no evidence you could. There is simply no successful MMO funded by kickstarter.
And i highly suspicious that $1M will be enough when in the other thread, the kickstarter project was getting $200k just to do a tech demo pitch for investors.
Comments
I had never seen/noticed the person post before until the night I quoted them. Unlike some, I dont spend my time on active/pre launch game forums to troll them. If I do go it is to read, and occasionally make a comment. I was doing some reading about the Owen class announcement, and saw a couple of other threads was only reason I knew person.
The only thing I had really seen of the game prior was from the trolls carrying that tag in the TOR forums. They actually do a lot of spouting off about TOR, and subs, for someone knocking door to door hoping to get their style of game made.
Anyways the Devs seem like decent chaps....pity their game is attracting some unsavory types, but that is their problem.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
@Gdemani: In all honesty each of the things you just mentioned: Cinematics, Voice Overs, and Phasing is all possible with generated systems. They are also a big part of the reason TOR's budget ran so high. I for one, enjoyed the quality of their cinematics. But I also skipped by most of them, like many other players.
I'd guess that indie projects aren't likely going to be fully voicing their games. Too much money for not enough gain. That having been said, it is entirely possible with a generated system. We actually added support for it just before GDC. You assign each NPC in the game a different voice font. You then compile a list of all the major things that need to be said, and the mission or chat bubbles play the best fit. You can actually see that TOR did this, except for the voice fonts. Some of your storyline characters had certain phrases they would say multiple times. So it is possible, but budget constraints will likely prevent it for most titles.
Cinematics are actually very doable with generated missions. Your talking about client side FX here. They are easier to do with static quests because you can set up the cameras exactly how you want them and they will always be perfect. I can tell you that some of Repop's generated missions do use cinematic effects though, and how it works is you instead center the camera based on the player or NPCs location, and then you offset it and adjust for obstacles. It does allow you to do things like zoom or pan the camera, look at an object, etc, even in fully generated missions.
Phasing is a form of instancing that modifies your spatial awareness. Again that is very possible in a generated system because basically your talking about seamless instancing. You could even generate the NPCs, traps and objects inside of a phase.
That having been said, you aren't likely to match TOR's high quality cinematic effects with a much smaller budget. They had a lot of good people working on the title (over 600). It's one of the features that made their game stand out. But I'm not sure if we'll see that kind of budget again in an MMO in a long time.
Progress moving forward in an MMO is tied to short term goals and advancing your character. It's not tied to having the same story in the same order as every other player of your class. That is how it often occurs in modern theme park games. But the core thing is that players want to max level (or max a skill line). In a game that has 50 levels, your first end goal is 50. Then your end goal is gearing up to the best gear. Quests are what gets you to 50. When MMOs post-wow have run metrics, they find that players usually skip the long details quests in exchange for the quickest form of experience. They also skip the quest text in most cases, and just go by the quest helper's immediate goals.
Generators can provide you those same advantages. They can be automatically tailored or scaled to your characters preferences or skill sets. They can be filtered by area. They can be chained. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Last but not least, on the original topic. You keep harping on donating. If your getting something in return then you aren't donating. Your pre-ordering, or your purchasing something else. It would depend on what the pledge levels of that game were offering. As far as donating to an "idea" rather than a product though. I have to wonder if you even bothered to look at some of the Kickstarter pages. In some products, that is the case, in many others they are games that are far along in development. Some are funding demo apps or such, but many were already partially through development before Kickstarter began being seen as a viable option.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
MMOs though? Herein lies the problem MMOs have complex network and security requirements these days, and it will be hard to run such a game on thr limited budgets often seen on Kickstarter.
So, while it would be a nice dream to see the market flood with inspired indie MMOs, it's nowhere near the realm of plausible reality at this time... and if a project leader tells you otherwise, don't buy into the hype.
Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.
Fair points there,but i'm sure you have read all the posts by JC regarding Repop which show we have professionals here Xerves /Josh,is a systems analyst and i think JC is a database analytical analyst no doubt JC will correct me on that one,so by this i trust their judgement implicitly this is why they changed the engine to Hero during mid development as no doubt they saw the benefits of Hero,not sure if the other games i mentioned use Hero or not only game i tested with Hero was Dominus.
Other than that the Hero engine used by SWTOR and this is not trolling is not the one used by Repop ,Bioware gutted it for their own use and is not updated by the Hero devs in any way,but with Repop and others the difference is Hero/Idea Fabrik provide server/security and as far as i know full support during the Beta stages as well with Hero indie devs buy the whole package this is why it is popular as it allows splintered teams to work together at the same time and provides support during the games development.
I think this link show's the benefits and all the issues you mention seem to be covered by the package regarding Repop,so in conjunction with a Kickstarter option they seem to be a perfect match.
http://www.heroengine.com/heroengine/why-heroengine/
And that would involve a contract, legal liability and warranty.
Get it?
1) I should have been more clear...
What I had on mind is elemental difference between quest and storyline. Generated quests are individual, generic templates. Story lines on the other hand are coherent, continuous content with clear beginning and end. And that is a reason why they need to be done manually and are so much more work than generated quests.
That was my point, when you said that generated quests require more work.
2) Well, I do get a badge, cookie, candle or similar trinket for donating a charity, it is still donation tho.
To correct you, you are not pre-ordering anything on Kickstarter as you are not purchasing anything. You donate, pledge with no liability to fulfill your promises.
No investor would ever grant you a penny based on information type and conditions being presented on Kickstarter, why anyone else should?
I guess it is pretty clear why people are turning to Kickstarter funding rather than looking for investment into their business.
Supporting promises instead of products will only encourage more promises, regardless whether any product will ever be delivered or it's quality.
Once SEC is done with DODD-Frank, I guess they will turn their attention to crowdfunding anyway, hehe
The cash they are generate on kickstarter is not the hole budget for the game, it would probally be used to build a proof of concept and help show investors that people are really interested in the game. Or like with the repopulation tis to help finish some things off and polish the game up..
Saying that MMORPGs do not need to be expensive to make infact technically it could all be done for nothing.
Taking the Hero Cloud for instance, its free so no initial up front costs all you need to do is learn the Hero script language and how to use the world building tools. If you get to a stage where you need to release the people behind the hero engine will host it all and help you set everything up. For 3d models and stuff you could use blender thats totally free, you can source textures from cgtextures for nothing or make your own using your digital camera and GIMP..
A group of talented people willing to put the time in can make an MMORPG with next to no budget..
Yes its a lot of work dont get me wrong but all these AAA companies spending millinos on MMORPGs are just crazy.. considering they are just copying what has come before..
That doesn't mean it's "free".
"Time is money, friend!"
All depends how people are working on the game, maybe they just work for free in their spare time and so on.. sure its no the best way to work and of course will take a lot longer but it was just an example of what could be done really.. so yeah it could be free or there abouts..
But i think i need to go back to my statement about the Hero Engine being free, it appears for be $99 a year now, but my team might have signed up for it when it was free.. so i just assumed it was still free LOL
Impossible to say yet, if and when a couple of those games release we will know.
It do help small time devs but if they actually can create a good game that impacts the genre or not is something we have to wait and see.
Sounds like Mortal Online...
If that is what people want, I have no problem with that. But I somehow doubt that people got the same game they were dreaming of(based on devs promises) before it was released...
With the money Im seeing on some of the more professional projects, I see no reason one cant build a $ 200k or so prototype and use Kickstarter to finance the remainder of the game.
A coworker and I were discussing how it might 'seem' a game company would get more donations if they had something to prove they knew what they were doing, like a prototype.
Unfortunately, there seems to be alot of hype for vaporware and reality might not sell as well.
-blitz
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Along these same lines, I could see maybe a small team building a prototype, and funding a "test" via Kickstarter. Developing your servers, etc is one thing, but having the funding for data center space, bandwidth, servers, etc is another. Build a prototype and then fund a public "deployment test" via Kickstarter.
Gdemami,
It's not like Kickstarter is being utilized to fund shoe stores or Walmarts, etc. These projects aren't just businesses, they are creative works. Creative works have a long and well established tradition of seeking donation (patronage) for thier creation. Some of the greatest works of art or muisic of all time owe thier existance to such practices.
People fund them for the same reason, they donate money toward cleaning up a vacant lot and turning it into a park, or drop a few dollars into the hat of a guy playing muisic on the street corner or buy paint supplies for the guy painting a mural on the side of a building. They do it because it pleases them and they want to be able to enjoy it some day. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would argue that most of the people behind these Kickstarter projects do more real "work" and bring more true value to the world then an army of wall street day traders who do nothing all day to make thier millions then click on a computer button to buy a stock, hold onto it for 5 seconds and click on it again to sell and cash in.
The sole purpose of a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE is whatever the owners of that enterprise DECIDE IT SHOULD BE. That certainly can, and usualy does include making money, but it's hardly the only factor involved for privately owned businesses. If a guy loves baking and he wants to open up his own bakery, who are you to tell him he's not allowed to do so, he must open up a shoe store instead, because he'll make more money?
Furthermore, if people like the idea of what someone is trying to do and they want to contribute something to help make it happen, who are you to tell them they can't, it's thier money, they earned it, they are the ones who get to say what to do with it......and really it's no different then going out and buying a membership to a book of the month club......getting to be a small part of something they are excited about brings them enjoyment.... the Kickstarter contributer isn't doing it because they expect some financial return....they are doing it because contributing to a project brings them ENJOYMENT. It's the same motivation that buying a game has (except most games produced these days aren't all that enjoyable.)
In terms of investment funding, alot of times it has nothing to do with the worthiness of the project, it has to do with how many times projects that have done the exact same thing before have proven successfull. A project that doesn't have a beaten track to follow doesn't have much chance of finding traditional funding, regardless of it's merits, unless the person behind the project is well known. Traditional funding doesn't lead to innovation, it leads to stagnation. The Wright Bro's working today, would have had a tough time getting funding for Kittyhawk.
Lets say, you've got a surfer who has a plan to make a surf-board that's 50% better then traditional boards at the same cost. If he tries to goto a traditional investment source he's going to have a tough time getting investment for it. Why? Not because the plan won't work or won't be proffitable......because the investors don't know squat about surfing, they don't know what makes a surf-board good or bad and have no way of judging how what the entrepenuer proposes to do will work. All they can do is understand whats been done before, however if what the entrepenuer wants to do is blazing new ground or bucking "conventional wisdom" (regardless of whether it's objectively accurate or not), he's very likely to get investment. The best he can hope for is to stumble accross an Angel investor who is also a surfer and who comprehends the dynamics of what he is proposing.... that's a little bit like playing the lottery.
Furthermore, in terms of investment.....it wasn't until VERY recent legislation that the average American is legaly ALLOWED to invest in a private business, and even now the limits are pretty strict as to the thresholds which the business must be under in order to accept such investments. For example, If I WANTED to invest $500 equity into GoblinWorks because I'm enthused about it's Pathfinder Online project, I am not legally allowed to do so according to current US Law...
- It's a private enterprise and I was not one of the principle founders of the business.
- I am not an accredited investor because my net personal income has not exceeded $1 million dollars per year for the past 2 years.
- The total value of the business likely exceeds $2 million (and it's only due to legislation passed, I believe, this year that I would be allowed to invest in a business under $2 million in value).
So, if I wanted to kick some money over to GoblinWorks, Kickstarter is the ONLY legal means for me to do so. US law prevents me from investing in it, even if both I and the owners of GoblinWorks agreed that I should..... Thanks Washington, D.C.
This paragraph nails it. The purpose of action is always profit, however profit does not necessarily equal money. Whether or not an enterprise is profitable is subjective, and depends on the values of those owning/running the enterprise.
You actually are preordering a game if you choose a pledge with a game copy as part of the reward.
Also, investors grant money for all kinds of hair brained schemes with little to nothing to show for it, and always have. See Christopher Columbus, Nikola Tesla, etc.
Not even sure why you have such a hardon against kickstarter anyway, since you obviously would never donate your money why do you care what other people do with it, or the projects that get funded by it. Or are you just being an argumentative dick just because you can?
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Your estimation, IMHO, is way optimistics. I highly doubt there will even be 1 release. Kickstarter is just not equiped to get the large investment needed for a MMO.
Heck, has any kickstart MMO project even get to a point with a demo, not to mention a alpha?
I have no doubt smaller MMOs can make it to market with under 10million dollars.
Make it small to start, like 10 levels, 20 models, basic gameplay. Focus on what seperates you from the other games.
Grow your fledling community by doing interviews, posting on forums, make a creative mess!
I bet you could do that with 1 million in donations.
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
agreed
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
Well seeing as how the first MMO to be funded from Kickstarter was just a few months ago, and the median development time of an MMO project is upwards of 4 years.....that's a pretty fucking stupid question
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I dont know about how the KS funding is going to work for EoC and others, but The Repopulation has been entirely self funded by the Development team. It is pretty much a complete game according to A&B. They are using KS to fund the extra content (or bling) during the final stages. They are also using it so those that are interested can pre-purchase a membership at a lower price before release.
Its coming out of in-house Alpha and going into the first phase of closed public testing in the next month or so.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
I did not bother reading the whole thread but let me just throw this down.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/12/tech/innovation/mashable-kickstarter-projects-fail/index.html
Quick summary: it says 41% of all kickstarters fail.
Fail = not reach stated funding goal?
And that means 59% succeed.
Whether thats reaching funding goals or succeed as a released project, its still good odds.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Apparently (article doesn't specify but does go on to suggest asking for less cash to ensure a successful kickstart).
The real stat would be how many ventures that are kickstarted fail or succeed.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I bet you couldn't. So far, there is no evidence you could. There is simply no successful MMO funded by kickstarter.
And i highly suspicious that $1M will be enough when in the other thread, the kickstarter project was getting $200k just to do a tech demo pitch for investors.