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Has Kickstarter stopped the Mmorpg's Stagnation ?

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by teakbois

    Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

           I dont even know what kickstarter is......Thats how much it has impacted me.....

  • sagilsagil StockholmPosts: 291Member

    Don't be rude guys, you are just unveiling yourselves as the greedy corporate owners that are mad about losing money in the future.

    Then let me ask you guys this... How come... Big game developers (and Movie devs) put themselves on Kickstarters? You guys have something twirled around your finger. And that is that you believe cashcows is the solution to everything. 

    EA spent 200 million on an AAA game which to many is a B game. You need to play smart with money and these kickstart campaigners are working their ass of to create new stuff to the public.

    You must realise that Kickstarters projects are some peoples dreams, if there ever would be a fraud, the public would get their money back and the person in question would have a lot to give back until he passes away. If can't pay all debt until he dies, his children would have to pay back and so on.

    With 200,000 dollars you can order 1000 high quality models from 3d teams services.

     

  • darker70darker70 stokePosts: 813Member


    Originally posted by sagil
    Don't be rude guys, you are just unveiling yourselves as the greedy corporate owners that are mad about losing money in the future.

    Then let me ask you guys this... How come... Big game developers (and Movie devs) put themselves on Kickstarters? You guys have something twirled around your finger. And that is that you believe cashcows is the solution to everything. 

    EA spent 200 million on an AAA game which to many is a B game. You need to play smart with money and these kickstart campaigners are working their ass of to create new stuff to the public.

    You must realise that Kickstarters projects are some peoples dreams, if there ever would be a fraud, the public would get their money back and the person in question would have a lot to give back until he passes away. If can't pay all debt until he dies, his children would have to pay back and so on.

    With 200,000 dollars you can order 1000 high quality models from 3d teams services.

     


    Amen Brother !!

    image

  • injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by darker70

     

    With the advent of Kickstarter there is a complete circle regarding innovation in Mo's,many potential subscribers and a seemingly older and wiser player base seems to have gone past theme park fluff and want something more solid and with some lasting foundation,or as in GW2 a basic formula but throw something different into the mix to make it it's own entity.
     
    SWTOR is an example if released 5 years ago this would be huge,but as Bioware copy pasted the gendre,which for instance any good Korean dev has done the novelty wears off and the people want something different how else can you explain the mega IP that is Star Wars being such a mega flop ?
     
    So we have The Repopulation,Pathfinder,Embers of Cerus,Origins of Malu,and even the themepark kings the Koreans are going sandbox with Archeage,i challenge anybody to come up with that amount of innovation in the last five years as we have had Themepark Clone after clone and more clones with the F2P factor,but the people have spoken with cash and a desire for the market to change which it seems to be doing after a very long stagnation.
     
    So will this herald a new golden age as many projects are now on their way with funds from the people and some are possibly on the the drawing board after potential devs see that their dreams and visions can become a reality ,and a future business for themselves as many had hoped they could steer their project themselves and not have someone pulling at the wheel and veering them on another path which as seen lately is not always the right one to take.
     

    It's interesting that you made this post considering that I was just thinking about what a revolutionary Kickstarter is to us gamers worldwide who have basically become numb to the same grind with a different paintjob.  It provides capital to an otherwise restricted market, similar to the way Peer to peer lending provides liquidity and ROI to both parties intrinsically involved.  There's inherent risk involved, as with all investments - products fail as you've illustrated... but if a game becomes a long lasting success, it exceeds just the monetary gain, but it gives the gamers something they want knowing they actually had some participation in its creation.  I truly wonder what executives mega-publishers/developers are thinking... 

    It gives me goosebumps to think that there's going to be an actual perceived "Alpha" within the gaming industry not dictated by paid off reviewers and websites to drive hype.

    Great post.

     

     

  • miagisanmiagisan NY, NYPosts: 5,156Member

    sounds like an aweful lot like viral marketing, and nothing much to show for yet.

    image

  • darker70darker70 stokePosts: 813Member
    Originally posted by miagisan

    sounds like an aweful lot like viral marketing, and nothing much to show for yet.

    If u mean Repop does the small issue of  Alpha testing mid June count for much then,if not Repop apologies image

    image

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sagil

    Don't be rude guys, you are just unveiling yourselves as the greedy corporate owners that are mad about losing money in the future.

    Then let me ask you guys this... How come... Big game developers (and Movie devs) put themselves on Kickstarters? You guys have something twirled around your finger. And that is that you believe cashcows is the solution to everything. 

    EA spent 200 million on an AAA game which to many is a B game. You need to play smart with money and these kickstart campaigners are working their ass of to create new stuff to the public.

    You must realise that Kickstarters projects are some peoples dreams, if there ever would be a fraud, the public would get their money back and the person in question would have a lot to give back until he passes away. If can't pay all debt until he dies, his children would have to pay back and so on.

    With 200,000 dollars you can order 1000 high quality models from 3d teams services.

     

     It would help to have some sort of context when you say Big game developrs and movie devs.

    What are they looking for money for?  Who are they?

    And we have to keep in mind that being a big game or movie dev, especially a movie developer, doesn't actually mean you have the money to do the project you want.  All those produced by credits you see scrolling at the beginning and end of a movie are there because those are the people primarilly responsible for providing the money in some way to get the movie made.

    Even a Big name game developer has to secure the funding to make a game. 

    2 million dollars may be well enough for a couple of guys to develop an MMO, but I don't see that MMO going very far when you've got indie developers who have managed to secure 10x that much money and had to release their game well before it was ready.  I don't see it as not being able to get the money to make an MMO, it's being able to keep it in development as long as it needs to be; which a lot of indie studios seem to have a problem doing.

    SV had to release Mortal online because they had to start collecting subs or they had to scrap the project.  After 2 years where has it gotten them?  SV had well over 2 million dollars to work with.

    There are so many MMO's out now, and a good chunk of them F2P.  If you needed to get your money from kickstarter just do develop the game, and can't sustain development long enough to get it release ready, I just don't see it having any impact.  There are lots of indie games that are running, and got up and running on very little money, it doesn't mean they had an impact or are even very good.

    Kickstarter has it's place, and it's going to help a lot of people realize their dreams, but I don't see it having the kind of impact the OP expecting.

  • SorrowSorrow St Pete, FLPosts: 1,195Member

    Sure seems like it, and I have to say after really looking into some of the projects getting funded on there really considering trying to kick start an idea I've had for years for an upscale combination organic aquafarm / fine dining establishment.

    Much like planet earth at epcot, I would have the fish farms as glass columns floor to ceiling throughout the dining room, with the working hydrofarm above the restaurant.

    Would grow as much of our use as we could, 3 or 4 varieties of fish, fresh water prawns and mussles, crawfish, and all the organic produce we could grow.

    I truly believe as our population continues to grow, aquafarming is going to become a rule rather than an exception and a self sustaining restaurant would be an example for others to follow.

    image

  • teakboisteakbois Parlin, NJPosts: 2,154Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    Kickstarter has it's place, and it's going to help a lot of people realize their dreams, but I don't see it having the kind of impact the OP expecting.

    The OP was merely trying to get more money for Repopulation with this post.  The genre is cleary ready to change without kickstarter, just look at the slate of games on the horizon.  Guild Wars 2 will be the first game to try to evolve the model, its certainly not just a 'WoW clone with xxx feature', because theres just too much different (even if it is somewhat familiar, its basically doing to WoW what Vanilla WoW did to EQ which was a pretty drastic change).  Then there is The Secret World.  How about major studios making MMOFPS (Planetside 2, Defiance) and an MMORTS (Rise of Nations).  And of course Archeage.

     

    No, kickstarter hasnt stopped MMO stagnation.  I don't even think SWTOR (and Rift)'s poor retention stopped it.  Change has been in the works for a few years now, and its almost here.

     

    But I think (hope) the OP knew that already.

     

    As Uhwop says, Kickstarter has its place.  But not for MMORPGs.  There is just too much that goes into making them.

     

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Chiang MaiPosts: 412Member Uncommon

    I did want to chime on on MMOs and budget size. Because most MMOs cost millions of dollars, and some go much, much further than that, I think there are some misconceptions.

    Licensing generally eats up a reasonable size of your initial budget. Up until a couple of years ago you were looking at $300-750,000 for your engine, then all the little extras adding up, $10k for Speedtree, etc. Things changed significantly in that regard in recent years. You have MMO specific engines like Hero Engine and Big World which are now available for a low up front cost (or free in the case of Hero's most recent license agreement) while owing backend royalties. Unreal Engine, CryEngine and Unity are not MMO specific, but has similar license deals now. This simply was not an option previously. This really forced developers to get some backing before doing anything.

    Budgets then inflate based on office space and the number of employees. Typically the game developers get some funding from a publisher (an advance that must be paid back later, forfeiture of creative control, deadlines, in exchange for an up front investment) or from a venture capitolist. They then hire on each of their employees, rent an office, etc. If you take a game with a 600 man staff (ala TOR) and factor in a $4000 a month salary on average, your talking about $2.4 million a month or nearly $29 million a year, on salary alone.

    Most MMOs don't have anywhere near that team size though. And many indie MMOs forego any salary until after a game launches. Programming wise if you develop generated or player created content systems, you won't need as many programmers or content people. What you will need though is an art team. And that's where things can get really expensive for an indie MMO. Generally they have some artists working in their spare time or outsource to affordable contractors (often in Asia). That's where Kickstarter can really be beneficial to these smaller games. Having some extra money during development can significantly boost their production quality, and we all know that a good launch makes a world of difference for an MMO. MMOs that launch well have a good shot of a long and prosperous life span. Those that start poorly, rarely ever make a strong recovery. I think that's where we'll see the biggest gains for indie MMOs through Kickstarter. They'll have a little extra budget that they can spend bringing in people to boost up the polish aspects where they often are most lacking as compared to larger studios.

    I do think that Kickstarter will bring more innovation to the MMO scene, as indies are more likely to try radically different ideas than a large publisher would be. I'm sure we'll see some games crash and burn along the way. And we may not see mainstream acceptance for Kickstarter until it produces a great title. I don't see how it's a bad thing though in any way. If people don't feel safe spending money in it, or don't see the reason for it, simply don't use it.

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member

    correct is, that we see some games at the horizon, which try to avoid the high-linearity of the wow-type theme-park and on the other side avoid the pvp-ffa-everywhere of the indie sandboxes. this happens currently with and without kickstarter. this is a step into the right direction. even if, these 2 design paradigms are not the only fault of the current-state MMO.

    kickstarter may help smaller companies to get the money for a prototype, in order to attract bigger investors interest. but i doubt, you can fund a full MMO with kickstarter only.

    however, even an unfnished indie-game like EVE in 2003 will just survive and get a chance to grow, if the core gamemechanic is great. as every game, even with a 200 million budget, can just get sustained suport by gamers, if the gamemechanic is great. i can tolerate bugs and missing features for a while. if the game is at least playable and the gamemechanic is stunning, they will get my money. and then i will watch, if they really improve and keep their promises.

    exacty this happend to me in the last weeks with the new games Tera, TSW and GW2. i could say after a few hours, that Teras gameplay is not for me even if the graphics is stunning and the combat system is not bad. i am still curious about TSW, but interested enough to not cancel pre-order, and i can say after 2 betas of GW2, that this game is at least worth to get a chance. even if i highly doubt, that this strange design is able to attract me for years.

    so kickstarter will just have a small impact on the industry. we will see a lot of vaporware and wasted money with kickstarter. we will also see some kickstarter games with crappy gameplay like most of todays indie sandboxes and the million dollar theme-parks. and perhaps we will get another good game, which is worth to get my support. at least one, would be great, because today there is none except good old EVE and some even older classic MMOs.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • trillgodtrillgod Toronto, ONPosts: 52Member

    Im really excited for repop but thats about it...repop is the only kickstarter mmo where the developers are releasing progress videos...i have no i dea how pathfinder got 300k...with no graphics..smhhh

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member
    Originally posted by trillgod

    Im really excited for repop but thats about it...repop is the only kickstarter mmo where the developers are releasing progress videos...i have no i dea how pathfinder got 300k...with no graphics..smhhh

    well, pathfinder got some pretty detailed devblogs about several very innovative gamemechanics. thats worth more, than graphics. now they got the money for prototyping and we will see some graphics and other stuff soon.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by JC-Smith

    I did want to chime on on MMOs and budget size. Because most MMOs cost millions of dollars, and some go much, much further than that, I think there are some misconceptions.

    Licensing generally eats up a reasonable size of your initial budget. Up until a couple of years ago you were looking at $300-750,000 for your engine, then all the little extras adding up, $10k for Speedtree, etc. Things changed significantly in that regard in recent years. You have MMO specific engines like Hero Engine and Big World which are now available for a low up front cost (or free in the case of Hero's most recent license agreement) while owing backend royalties. Unreal Engine, CryEngine and Unity are not MMO specific, but has similar license deals now. This simply was not an option previously. This really forced developers to get some backing before doing anything.

    Budgets then inflate based on office space and the number of employees. Typically the game developers get some funding from a publisher (an advance that must be paid back later, forfeiture of creative control, deadlines, in exchange for an up front investment) or from a venture capitolist. They then hire on each of their employees, rent an office, etc. If you take a game with a 600 man staff (ala TOR) and factor in a $4000 a month salary on average, your talking about $2.4 million a month or nearly $29 million a year, on salary alone.

    Most MMOs don't have anywhere near that team size though. And many indie MMOs forego any salary until after a game launches. Programming wise if you develop generated or player created content systems, you won't need as many programmers or content people. What you will need though is an art team. And that's where things can get really expensive for an indie MMO. Generally they have some artists working in their spare time or outsource to affordable contractors (often in Asia). That's where Kickstarter can really be beneficial to these smaller games. Having some extra money during development can significantly boost their production quality, and we all know that a good launch makes a world of difference for an MMO. MMOs that launch well have a good shot of a long and prosperous life span. Those that start poorly, rarely ever make a strong recovery. I think that's where we'll see the biggest gains for indie MMOs through Kickstarter. They'll have a little extra budget that they can spend bringing in people to boost up the polish aspects where they often are most lacking as compared to larger studios.

    I do think that Kickstarter will bring more innovation to the MMO scene, as indies are more likely to try radically different ideas than a large publisher would be. I'm sure we'll see some games crash and burn along the way. And we may not see mainstream acceptance for Kickstarter until it produces a great title. I don't see how it's a bad thing though in any way. If people don't feel safe spending money in it, or don't see the reason for it, simply don't use it.

    Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

     

    Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

     

    Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member
    Originally posted by Moaky07
     ... so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

     

    i agree that a open and free sandbox might become more of a beast than a theme-park, if it comes to balancing. and this means a hell of work, if you dont plan to simplify everythig like usual.

    but, if you separate PvP and PVE skillsets and mechanics clearly, it will become easier. and in PvE balancing often hurts more than it helps. look at old-school games. fairly unbalanced in PvE but great class diversification and a lot of more tactcal options per class than any of the today games. 

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,923Member Uncommon

    My estimation:

    100 MMOs on kickstarter

    • 1 makes it huge big.
    • 9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
    • 10 make it to release and struggle.
    • 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
     
     
    Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.
     
    Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • UsulDaNeriakUsulDaNeriak SindelfingenPosts: 640Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    My estimation:

    100 MMOs on kickstarter

    • 1 makes it huge big.
    • 9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
    • 10 make it to release and struggle.
    • 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
     
     
    Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.
     
    Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

    i agree, but this is just the 1st round. now estimate what happens in the 2nd round, if we really get 1 great game and 9 with a decent Return on Investment in the next years. just 80% vaporware would be a huge success in the eyes of venture capital investors. afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

    played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
    months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
    weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
    days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  • trillgodtrillgod Toronto, ONPosts: 52Member

    both repop and pathfinder have great ideas but to me if i was to invest in a game it would have to be repop...the hardest part is to convert your ideas into a practical game. repop is halfway there but i havent seen anything from pathfinder..i'm not saying pathfinder is gonna be shit..im just not willing to put my money where i only see ideas and nothing concrete

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by XAPGames
    My estimation:100 MMOs on kickstarter 1 makes it huge big. 9 make a profit after release and can continue development. 10 make it to release and struggle. 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).     Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.   Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

    1 out of 100 being "huge" is "huge" in overestimation only.

    Kickstarter is strongly supporting non-viable projects so chance that any decent game will come out of it is very very scarce...

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

    afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

    No investor is looking to invest into beggars.

    You got it messed up quite a bit. People asking for donations on Kickstarter are those who were already refused by investors and failed in their business even before they released their product.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by XAPGames
    My estimation:

     

    100 MMOs on kickstarter

    • 1 makes it huge big.
    • 9 make a profit after release and can continue development. 10 make it to release and struggle. 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).
        Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.   Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

     

    1 out of 100 being "huge" is "huge" in overestimation only.

    Kickstarter is strongly supporting non-viable projects so chance that any decent game will come out of it is very very scarce...

     

    Yeah I dont expect the repopulation to do any better than a MO or DF, but at least they are trying.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

    afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

     

    No investor is looking to invest into beggars.

    You got it messed up quite a bit. People asking for donations on Kickstarter are those who were already refused by investors and failed in their business even before they released their product.

    Some kickstarter projects are to show investors that there is a demand and X amount of people actually shelled out $$$ for it.

    I supported 

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/486250632/republique-by-camouflaj-logan

    that is like this.

    Yes, a Jennifer Hale tweet saying 'hey I am going to be in this game' = OMG HERE IS MY WALLET! :P

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • SaydienSaydien StuttgartPosts: 266Member

    After reading this thread I am tempted to believe that I understood kickstarter wrong. I've actually followed that project on various titles and most of the time the only stuff you get out of putting down even excessive amounts of money are ingame items, game time, signed stuff and one or several chances to meet the devs on a more or less fancy occasion. So for me Kickstarter has absolutely NOTHING to do with any actual investments so please stop talking about return on investments, return on capital employed, EVAs or whatever. The only thing that such fans that DONATE cash in kickstarter should be interested in is if the game will make it and also last long enough for them to cherish their tiny bonuses. There are no actual investors on Kickstarter.

  • darker70darker70 stokePosts: 813Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

    afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

     

    No investor is looking to invest into beggars.

    You got it messed up quite a bit. People asking for donations on Kickstarter are those who were already refused by investors and failed in their business even before they released their product.

    Some kickstarter projects are to show investors that there is a demand and X amount of people actually shelled out $$$ for it.

    I supported 

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/486250632/republique-by-camouflaj-logan

    that is like this.

    Yes, a Jennifer Hale tweet saying 'hey I am going to be in this game' = OMG HERE IS MY WALLET! :P

    Good point i  must admit Kickstarter really suprised me as i was unaware of it myself,but the amount of projects being supported is staggering and even more amazeing when u check out the backers for Repop and others some of these guys are supporting multiple pitch's somer get funded some don't ,also refreshing to see many Kickstarter pitchers especially indie devs supporting each other as well.

    But the power is now with the people and not in the hands of greedy executives who for example broke many a devs heart  when cutting their ideas,as they had the power and not the devs but if the devs have the money which is basically power then like i said before they can forge their own destiny it may take longer and yes it may fail but at least they now have a viable option as the economy is shot to pieces so they will find it hard to get a bank loan or find investors the old fashioned way.

     

    image

  • JC-SmithJC-Smith Chiang MaiPosts: 412Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Moaky07
    Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

    Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

    Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

    1) Generated and player created content requires a lot more initial work. Once they are functional though they require a lot less long term work, because players will be creating situations and content can be reused with generation. Each game is different, but in general I can't see any reason that someone could claim a sandbox would cost them more money to produce than a theme park game.

    2) Not hiding that I'm a developer, I think it's relatively well known. I post semi-regularly in the pub on various topics. The only time I've ever felt the need to identify myself is when answering questions about the game in comments threads, etc. The things I said about Kickstarter a generalized things.

    Having been making indie games for many years now, and having worked on Repop for the past four years though allows me to give a different perspective that hadn't really been presented in the thread. For things like budget, indie developers have to be cost efficient, there's really no way around it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't produce quality products. In 1992 Batman Returns had a $80 million budget, where Resevoir Dogs cost $1 million to make. Resevoir Dogs was a far better movie.

    Not all of the people kickstarting these projects are newcomers though. In the past few months we've seen a new Wasteland, Leisure Suit Larry, Shadowrun games get funded, as well as projects from the creators of SpaceQuest and Monkey Isle receive funding. And certainly not all of them are people who were rejected by publishers (as someone here suggested) either.

    There are some harsh realities on how game publishing works:

    The publisher generally advances the funds, and take a large chunk of the royalties for that investment. Your advance must be paid back before you see any royalties. This is why you often here that most games don't make money. Often developers don't make back enough royalties and they turn to their next game and a new advance.

    Developers generally get their advances in installments. They have milestones to get the next deal. If things go poorly in development, they often are forced to launch before they are ready. Sometimes games get cancelled. Sometimes creative control is lost. Many of the decisions behind the scenes are not in the control of the developer's, but in the hands of publisher's who may not be on the same page as them.

    From a developer's standpoint you don't really want to deal with any of  that... but for years that was the only way to get your game on shelves. With electronic distribution that is less of a problem than it was in the past. It's still a route many people go down though because it gives them exposure and often funds their development. That's not going to change.

    Where Kickstarter changes that, is that it gives developers a viable alternative to publishers and  venture capitolists. And it allows them to take more risks than publishers may be willing to take. There's a reason there are so many wow-like MMOs these days. Half of that because that is seen as a proven formula. The other half is that investors want to invest in the safe bet. That doesn't mean sandbox or outside of the box MMOs can't get published. There are opportunities out there, but they come with strings attached.

    My personal thoughts on Kickstarter is that it's a good thing. That doesn't mean I'm going to go through and put money on every game idea out there, or that anyone else should either. Any time you spend money you should do your homework. I can understand people being skeptical about how they spend their hard earned cash.

    I don't really understand the resentment towards Kickstarter though, or people who like to condascend others for contributing to projects. There are generally good incentives from most projects, which allows players to get some added value for their contributions when the game ships. Obviously it doesn't do you much good if the game doesn't ship, but that's where using your head and choosing your projects wisely comes into play.

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