Dumbed down stuff: Stuff I've finished yesterday and now other people are doing it as well.
PvE is designed to be beaten by players.
Once you beat something (unless it is based on some random generated number) you can beat it again since the Ai is static.
Additionally the game is designed for the average human, so unless one is rather dumb or has some severe motor handicaps, they will eventually beat it as well.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Like every single AAA MMO since EQ, yes, I'm pretty sadly sure that GW2 will get dumbed over time too.
Because lazy people are not lazy at on thing : being vocal. I think it's time for challenge demanding people like us to be vocal too, and unnecessarly spam the forums of every new MMO we chosed to play with complaints about games being too easy.
Move the trend backwards, in some way.
Start the movement now, while it's not too late (beta). As I read on the official forums, they already started to dumb down stuff (quests, mechanics, etc).
edit : the real danger with dumbing down lower level content is that it could make sidekicking completely boring.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Like every single AAA MMO since EQ, yes, I'm pretty sadly sure that GW2 will get dumbed over time too.
Because lazy people are not lazy at on thing : being vocal. I think it's time for challenge demanding people like us to be vocal too, and unnecessarly spam the forums of every new MMO we chosed to play with complaints about games being too easy.
Move the trend backwards, in some way.
edit : the real danger with dumbing down lower level content is that it could make sidekicking completely boring.
Game is trying to appeal to as many players as possible including console crowd and those who never played an MMO before. When you go for mass consumption you have to make things easier so that it is more accessible with masses.
or you are under the impression that GW2 was designed to be a niche game?
Like every single AAA MMO since EQ, yes, I'm pretty sadly sure that GW2 will get dumbed over time too.
Because lazy people are not lazy at on thing : being vocal. I think it's time for challenge demanding people like us to be vocal too, and unnecessarly spam the forums of every new MMO we chosed to play with complaints about games being too easy.
Move the trend backwards, in some way.
edit : the real danger with dumbing down lower level content is that it could make sidekicking completely boring.
Game is trying to appeal to as many players as possible including console crowd and those who never played an MMO before. When you go for mass consumption you have to make things easier so that it is more accessible with masses.
or you are under the impression that GW2 was designed to be a niche game?
Actually a niche game would be a super hard, AND very new style of game :-) (like, for instance, a Diablo3-Inferno-only difficulty game with completely neverseen core gameplay elements)
But MMOs are the most popular genre by itself, so it will never be niche as long as it does implement well known concepts.
Plus, being "at least more challenging than a walk in the park" doesn't make a game targetted at a niche, it just makes it targetted to everyone, including challenger demanders ;-)
I'll add that dumbing down is the cheapest, laziest way to appeal to broader audiences. There are tons of different possible gamedesigns to appeal to several audiences while not using the "make it stupidly easy" route. While dividing enemies HP by a half only takes a few automated scripts.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Like every single AAA MMO since EQ, yes, I'm pretty sadly sure that GW2 will get dumbed over time too.
Because lazy people are not lazy at on thing : being vocal. I think it's time for challenge demanding people like us to be vocal too, and unnecessarly spam the forums of every new MMO we chosed to play with complaints about games being too easy.
Move the trend backwards, in some way.
edit : the real danger with dumbing down lower level content is that it could make sidekicking completely boring.
Game is trying to appeal to as many players as possible including console crowd and those who never played an MMO before. When you go for mass consumption you have to make things easier so that it is more accessible with masses.
or you are under the impression that GW2 was designed to be a niche game?
Actually a niche game would be a super hard, AND very new style of game :-) (like, for instance, a Diablo3-Inferno-only difficulty game with completely neverseen core gameplay elements)
But MMOs are the most popular genre by itself, so it will never be niche as long as it does implement well known concepts.
Plus, being "at least more challenging than a walk in the park" doesn't make a game targetted at a niche, it just makes it targetted to everyone, including challenger demanders ;-)
I'll add that dumbing down is the cheapest, laziest way to appeal to broader audiences. There are tons of different possible gamedesigns to appeal to several audiences while not using the "make it stupidly easy" route. While dividing enemies HP by a half only takes a few automated scripts.
In order for MMO to reach out wider auience it has to be easy and accessible. SWTOR is your typical MMO and yet i remember how many players who never played an MMO before were so confused. GW2 will also attract a lot of non MMO players, and though GW2 doesn't follow the typical MMO formula it still needs to draw all these players in and not intimidate them by a genre they have no knowledge of. How can you dumb down something which was tailor made to reach as many players as possible and get rich?
I will just quote this from O'Brien which clearly show what they are aiming for.
“We’re in it to win it this time,” said O’Brien. “We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. We’ll be satisfied when the Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO. I think we have something unique here and players are going to see it and understand why dynamic events are a way better content model than people have experienced before in online worlds. Word-of-mouth will get people to understand that we really are doing something new and different. The sky’s the limit once this game is out. Online worlds have a networking effect. People will bring friends to Guild Wars 2. We hope all the people who play the beta weekend will tell their friends about it.”
That is why i don't believe in 'dumbing down' arguments regarding GW2. You can not beat WOW in sales and numbers by making your MMO less accessible.
In order for MMO to reach out wider auience it has to be easy and accessible.
Like I said, using the make-it-easy route is not the only way to appeal to broader audiences. It's the easiest and cheapest one (in term of costs), for sure, but it's clearly not the only way.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
In order for MMO to reach out wider auience it has to be easy and accessible.
Like I said, using the make-it-easy route is not the only way to appeal to broader audiences. It's the easiest and cheapest one (in term of costs), for sure, but it's clearly not the only way.
Well what other way is there then? if MMO offers a lot of tutorials, help to new players, make sure that games difficulty isn't too daunting and that players can progress in game without much hassle..it is going to be on easier side just by being more accessible.
How else do you expect them to keep the game in accordance to your vision and still beat WOW? easier said than done i think.
In order for MMO to reach out wider auience it has to be easy and accessible.
Like I said, using the make-it-easy route is not the only way to appeal to broader audiences. It's the easiest and cheapest one (in term of costs), for sure, but it's clearly not the only way.
Well what other way is there then? if MMO offers a lot of tutorials, help to new players, make sure that games difficulty isn't too daunting and that players can progress in game without much hassle..it is going to be on easier side just by being more accessible.
How else do you expect them to keep the game in accordance to your vision and still beat WOW? easier said than done i think.
First, granted gamedesign is a part of my job so I'm biased, but this is ANet's job to find other ways than dumbing down to make it appealing to wider audiences. There has been a lot of gamedesigns in different MMOs, games, to open a previously niche game to wider targets :
- mini games / crafting / lore / non combat scenarios (for alternative to difficult combat)
And for accessability to difficult combats :
- companions / NPC mercenaries
- temporary buffs (by doing sidequests)
- and the most obvious and cost free to me : grouping with friends.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
But it's already easy.... Like seriously. Except some tweaking with how healthpools scale on mobs, making the fights just last stupidly long every now and then without really making them more difficult there is nothing that's actually HARD.
Yes the explorable mode, when you do it first time, with a group of other first timers, with outdated gear, you will die a lot, whole lot. But onc eyou realize how certain mechanics work there it becomes obvious how to proceed. It's just all about paying attention. Any dumbing down would simply make it boring.
I really hope ANet will stick to their guns. GW, even 7 years after release and several changes that made parts of game easier still has plenty of challenging content where you do have to play carefully and know what you are doing. You can't just go in and hope for best rushing through.
Another thing against dumbing the game donw is how the gear works in Guild Wars franchise. At level cap it becomes a hunt from prestige. You want to gain those hard to get armour sets or weapons because they look different. Since you can easily transfer stats using transmutation stones (You get 3 for clearing a zone so it's not liek they are hard to get), you want to have players feel like their fancy gear is actually earned and not given away freely to anyone that just jumps and down for an hour in middle of city.
ArenaNet's business model (b2p) is good because it doesn't make them a slave to sub numbers.
That being said, I don't see them over-reacting to QQ as much as some other companies might but they may dumb it down to attract new players when the first xpac comes out.
I agree, ANET really has no incentive to make things easier since people aren't paying them a sub. Sure, I suppose they could make the previous content a bit easier when an expansion comes out so people can blow through it more quickly to get to the new stuff, but otherwise, they got your money at the door and there isn't much you can do it. (Guess people could demand a refund)
It does however give them a great opportunity to offer cash shop items that make things easier for the players, no idea if they'll take that route however.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not the game that is difficult, just dropping the years of hard programmed MMO conventions. I'd be very upset if they made anything other than the very first areas any easier.
Comments
Translation of player lingo:
Broken overpowered crap: Stuff I haven't done.
Hard stuff: Stuff I've just finished.
Dumbed down stuff: Stuff I've finished yesterday and now other people are doing it as well.
PvE is designed to be beaten by players.
Once you beat something (unless it is based on some random generated number) you can beat it again since the Ai is static.
Additionally the game is designed for the average human, so unless one is rather dumb or has some severe motor handicaps, they will eventually beat it as well.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Like every single AAA MMO since EQ, yes, I'm pretty sadly sure that GW2 will get dumbed over time too.
Because lazy people are not lazy at on thing : being vocal. I think it's time for challenge demanding people like us to be vocal too, and unnecessarly spam the forums of every new MMO we chosed to play with complaints about games being too easy.
Move the trend backwards, in some way.
Start the movement now, while it's not too late (beta). As I read on the official forums, they already started to dumb down stuff (quests, mechanics, etc).
edit : the real danger with dumbing down lower level content is that it could make sidekicking completely boring.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Game is trying to appeal to as many players as possible including console crowd and those who never played an MMO before. When you go for mass consumption you have to make things easier so that it is more accessible with masses.
or you are under the impression that GW2 was designed to be a niche game?
Well i dont think they could dumb it down any mroe really.. i mean people can press a button and be instant max lvl for pvp..
Actually a niche game would be a super hard, AND very new style of game :-) (like, for instance, a Diablo3-Inferno-only difficulty game with completely neverseen core gameplay elements)
But MMOs are the most popular genre by itself, so it will never be niche as long as it does implement well known concepts.
Plus, being "at least more challenging than a walk in the park" doesn't make a game targetted at a niche, it just makes it targetted to everyone, including challenger demanders ;-)
I'll add that dumbing down is the cheapest, laziest way to appeal to broader audiences. There are tons of different possible gamedesigns to appeal to several audiences while not using the "make it stupidly easy" route. While dividing enemies HP by a half only takes a few automated scripts.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
In order for MMO to reach out wider auience it has to be easy and accessible. SWTOR is your typical MMO and yet i remember how many players who never played an MMO before were so confused. GW2 will also attract a lot of non MMO players, and though GW2 doesn't follow the typical MMO formula it still needs to draw all these players in and not intimidate them by a genre they have no knowledge of. How can you dumb down something which was tailor made to reach as many players as possible and get rich?
I will just quote this from O'Brien which clearly show what they are aiming for.
“We’re in it to win it this time,” said O’Brien. “We were number two to World of Warcraft with Guild Wars, now we want to beat them. We’ll be satisfied when the Guild Wars 2 is the most successful MMO. I think we have something unique here and players are going to see it and understand why dynamic events are a way better content model than people have experienced before in online worlds. Word-of-mouth will get people to understand that we really are doing something new and different. The sky’s the limit once this game is out. Online worlds have a networking effect. People will bring friends to Guild Wars 2. We hope all the people who play the beta weekend will tell their friends about it.”
That is why i don't believe in 'dumbing down' arguments regarding GW2. You can not beat WOW in sales and numbers by making your MMO less accessible.
I expected a challenge from Arenanet.... that is why i like them!
I HOPE THEY DO NOT DUMB IT DOWN
Like I said, using the make-it-easy route is not the only way to appeal to broader audiences. It's the easiest and cheapest one (in term of costs), for sure, but it's clearly not the only way.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Well what other way is there then? if MMO offers a lot of tutorials, help to new players, make sure that games difficulty isn't too daunting and that players can progress in game without much hassle..it is going to be on easier side just by being more accessible.
How else do you expect them to keep the game in accordance to your vision and still beat WOW? easier said than done i think.
First, granted gamedesign is a part of my job so I'm biased, but this is ANet's job to find other ways than dumbing down to make it appealing to wider audiences. There has been a lot of gamedesigns in different MMOs, games, to open a previously niche game to wider targets :
- mini games / crafting / lore / non combat scenarios (for alternative to difficult combat)
And for accessability to difficult combats :
- companions / NPC mercenaries
- temporary buffs (by doing sidequests)
- and the most obvious and cost free to me : grouping with friends.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
And like I said before, every single MMO to date has been dumbed down as f*ck at one point in their lifetime, and now it's TERA's turn :
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/353891/page/1
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
I like the difficulty as it is right now and I hope ArenaNet keep the Challenge they way it is.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
But it's already easy.... Like seriously. Except some tweaking with how healthpools scale on mobs, making the fights just last stupidly long every now and then without really making them more difficult there is nothing that's actually HARD.
Yes the explorable mode, when you do it first time, with a group of other first timers, with outdated gear, you will die a lot, whole lot. But onc eyou realize how certain mechanics work there it becomes obvious how to proceed. It's just all about paying attention. Any dumbing down would simply make it boring.
I really hope ANet will stick to their guns. GW, even 7 years after release and several changes that made parts of game easier still has plenty of challenging content where you do have to play carefully and know what you are doing. You can't just go in and hope for best rushing through.
Another thing against dumbing the game donw is how the gear works in Guild Wars franchise. At level cap it becomes a hunt from prestige. You want to gain those hard to get armour sets or weapons because they look different. Since you can easily transfer stats using transmutation stones (You get 3 for clearing a zone so it's not liek they are hard to get), you want to have players feel like their fancy gear is actually earned and not given away freely to anyone that just jumps and down for an hour in middle of city.
I agree, ANET really has no incentive to make things easier since people aren't paying them a sub. Sure, I suppose they could make the previous content a bit easier when an expansion comes out so people can blow through it more quickly to get to the new stuff, but otherwise, they got your money at the door and there isn't much you can do it. (Guess people could demand a refund)
It does however give them a great opportunity to offer cash shop items that make things easier for the players, no idea if they'll take that route however.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hope they won't, fear they will
It's not the game that is difficult, just dropping the years of hard programmed MMO conventions. I'd be very upset if they made anything other than the very first areas any easier.
Releasing hard mode wouldn't apply to open world mobs, just to dungeons. And this game isn't a dungeon crawl so that point is moot.
Actually I want the game to be harder.
If people think this games hard to lvl in, they havent played many MMO's that didnt have a handholding policy XD