Originally posted by karmath Hopefully, the game wont sell many boxes. The backlash has been big and the taste of SWTOR is still lingering so there is a decent chance this game will be DOA.
The slew of WoW clones have sold a shitton of boxes, but if the next big clone doesnt even do that I dare say the cycle might break. If that happens I'll run down my street naked with nothing but a Cylon helmet on my head. Yes I will post pics too.
This game may not be a a 'true' Elder Scrolls game, but it's not a WoW clone either. Design conflicts with Elder Scrolls aside, it could be a very well done game.
How many times has that been said.
Every game recently has one really good new feature, yet they all still are vapid clones at the core and flop a few months after launch. Why anyone still has a slither of hope I really cant understand, how much more precedent do people need?
Player housing is nitpicking. The design of the game is sounding better, is it elderscroll, at its heart they seem to be wanting it to be.
]Combat has changed, well that's good it's alwayhs sucked in elder scroll. Combat was never the strong point of the game.
Player housing. Again, in a single player game i think its important. In a multiplayer game i coudl give a care. I look at it the George Carlin way. A house is only a place to keep your stuff. Well, if the game gives us other ways to keep our stuff why do i care about housing. I've had houses in a couple games, it was neat when it was invented but in the lasdt two games they were more annoyance than anything. Who cares if people can cometo my house.
And for those crying housing in the real world, theres neve a threat of being robbed in the single player game, so i expecvt that in the multiplayer game. I also don't want the annoynace of having to look for my house. In the single player game i can at least find it fairly easy.
I've read previews on here and on IGN. Both described a game that was devout of a trinity and allowed you access to dungeons that had puzzles and monsters similar to elder scroll.
My hope comes from the fact that GW2 comes out this year, and its effecting a lot of future game designs, this one included.
Player housing does nothing for a better gaming experience in MMOs. Just a waste of money, time and resources.
Well if they were actually making a innovative MMO and bringing an Elders scrolls world for players to live in then yes it does a lot for a the MMO in regard to player formed communities if the housing is not an instance.
They serve as vendor spots, or place you have a garden to grow things used by other players, the list could go on with some imagination. In UO housing was far from nothing. Now the wow formula yes, housing is a bit of fluff that pointless for the most part. Elders scrolls should not be a themepark, it should have been a world to live in and let the players create the drama.
Originally posted by PyrateLVIts like Adam Sandler movies. Each one more horrible than the last, yet he keeps on making them. WHY?!Because people will buy it
Click is pretty good =/.To the OP, either you designate locations for housing at the very beginning of world design or you run into conflicts later on as you try to shuffle things around to create such areas. Considering the game has been in development for about 5 years, I have to say that most of their world design is probably done, so open-world housing is more than likely never making it in (at least according to the information provided by the article). I could very easily see the game having instanced housing, maybe not at launch, but implemented farther down the road, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that since past Elder Scrolls games did not provide you with the freedom to customize house placement, orientation, etc. (at least not that I know of).
I think people need to be wary of making up better excuses for Zenimax then they are able to do for themselves.
What I mean is the statement they made of 'cant do player housing like players want' is a far cry from 'we might do it later'.
Regardless of if its likely they or not for them to do in the future players should hold them accountable for what they just said, not for something that might happen down the line.
That is my view anyway.
You're nitpicking the quote. Obviously they could add housing. They could add open world housing and they could let players stick houses wherever they wanted to. There is no technological reason they can't do it. What they can't do is have the housing players want, within the constraints of the game they have built. It wouldn't introduce insurmountable technical issues, it would introduce social issues. Either the housing would not be what people want, or it would impact other aspects of game play in a negative manner.
its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No.
They are either A) flat out liying or not experience enough to know any better.
Both are not something to casually ignore.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Player housing is nitpicking. The design of the game is sounding better, is it elderscroll, at its heart they seem to be wanting it to be.
]Combat has changed, well that's good it's alwayhs sucked in elder scroll. Combat was never the strong point of the game.
Player housing. Again, in a single player game i think its important. In a multiplayer game i coudl give a care. I look at it the George Carlin way. A house is only a place to keep your stuff. Well, if the game gives us other ways to keep our stuff why do i care about housing. I've had houses in a couple games, it was neat when it was invented but in the lasdt two games they were more annoyance than anything. Who cares if people can cometo my house.
And for those crying housing in the real world, theres neve a threat of being robbed in the single player game, so i expecvt that in the multiplayer game. I also don't want the annoynace of having to look for my house. In the single player game i can at least find it fairly easy.
I've read previews on here and on IGN. Both described a game that was devout of a trinity and allowed you access to dungeons that had puzzles and monsters similar to elder scroll.
My hope comes from the fact that GW2 comes out this year, and its effecting a lot of future game designs, this one included.
I am less concerned is player housing should or shouldnt be in an MMO. I am concerned about the statement.
'player housing is not possible as players want it' demonstrates a HUGE lack of experience and knowedge. If it was an a job interview the interview would have been over.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by karmath Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by karmathHopefully, the game wont sell many boxes. The backlash has been big and the taste of SWTOR is still lingering so there is a decent chance this game will be DOA.The slew of WoW clones have sold a shitton of boxes, but if the next big clone doesnt even do that I dare say the cycle might break. If that happens I'll run down my street naked with nothing but a Cylon helmet on my head. Yes I will post pics too.
This game may not be a a 'true' Elder Scrolls game, but it's not a WoW clone either. Design conflicts with Elder Scrolls aside, it could be a very well done game. How many times has that been said.
Every game recently has one really good new feature, yet they all still are vapid clones at the core and flop a few months after launch. Why anyone still has a slither of hope I really cant understand, how much more precedent do people need?
If you read the description of the game mechanics, and ignore the marketing buzz words, then you should be able to get an idea of how the game will play. SWToR was very similar to WoW in game play. This was fairly obvious from all the information they released about the game. Anyone who was shocked or surprised did not read about the game's mechanics. The same could be said for Rift. The similarities and differences between playing WoW and Rift were all presented before the game released...there were no surprises. TESO is no different. There are more differences than similarities with WoW, compared to Rift. The more I hear about TESO, the less like WoW it sounds.
TESO has enough mechanical differences to not play like a WoW clone. Again, that doesn't mean it's going to be a good game and it certainly doesn't mean it's going to feel like playing an Elder Scrolls game. Calling it a WoW clone doesn't help when the issue is how much it isn't like the Elder Scrolls series, not how much like WoW it is.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Player housing is nitpicking. The design of the game is sounding better, is it elderscroll, at its heart they seem to be wanting it to be.
]Combat has changed, well that's good it's alwayhs sucked in elder scroll. Combat was never the strong point of the game.
Player housing. Again, in a single player game i think its important. In a multiplayer game i coudl give a care. I look at it the George Carlin way. A house is only a place to keep your stuff. Well, if the game gives us other ways to keep our stuff why do i care about housing. I've had houses in a couple games, it was neat when it was invented but in the lasdt two games they were more annoyance than anything. Who cares if people can cometo my house.
And for those crying housing in the real world, theres neve a threat of being robbed in the single player game, so i expecvt that in the multiplayer game. I also don't want the annoynace of having to look for my house. In the single player game i can at least find it fairly easy.
I've read previews on here and on IGN. Both described a game that was devout of a trinity and allowed you access to dungeons that had puzzles and monsters similar to elder scroll.
My hope comes from the fact that GW2 comes out this year, and its effecting a lot of future game designs, this one included.
So, let's make this clear.
You don't want houses in a MMO because it is annoying for YOU. Because YOU don't care about housing and all of the benefits that they create, YOU want everyone to suffer from it's exclusion. YOU also don't care if someone comes to your house.
Do you believe that everyone thinks like you? Do you really?
Here's what you are doing. Because YOU don't believe it adds anything to YOUR game experience, YOU don't care if all of the people who like it, don't have it. Nice mentality. Adding housing to a game that you play in would not affect your experience, but you are against it. You don't have to own a house, but you don't want others to because they enjoy it.
So ultimately. You are happy when other people are upset? That's what I've gathered from your post.
They cant do player housing the way players want with-in the confines of their game design.
Zenimax cant have players dropping houses every 50 meters when they have static 3x Mob spawn points every 10.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Limited houses is still better than no housing. They have plenty of money behind a HUGE IP. There is no reason that they couldn't figure something out.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by stealthbrOriginally posted by PyrateLVIts like Adam Sandler movies. Each one more horrible than the last, yet he keeps on making them. WHY?!Because people will buy it
Click is pretty good =/.To the OP, either you designate locations for housing at the very beginning of world design or you run into conflicts later on as you try to shuffle things around to create such areas. Considering the game has been in development for about 5 years, I have to say that most of their world design is probably done, so open-world housing is more than likely never making it in (at least according to the information provided by the article). I could very easily see the game having instanced housing, maybe not at launch, but implemented farther down the road, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that since past Elder Scrolls games did not provide you with the freedom to customize house placement, orientation, etc. (at least not that I know of).I think people need to be wary of making up better excuses for Zenimax then they are able to do for themselves. What I mean is the statement they made of 'cant do player housing like players want' is a far cry from 'we might do it later'.Regardless of if its likely they or not for them to do in the future players should hold them accountable for what they just said, not for something that might happen down the line.That is my view anyway.You're nitpicking the quote. Obviously they could add housing. They could add open world housing and they could let players stick houses wherever they wanted to. There is no technological reason they can't do it. What they can't do is have the housing players want, within the constraints of the game they have built. It wouldn't introduce insurmountable technical issues, it would introduce social issues. Either the housing would not be what people want, or it would impact other aspects of game play in a negative manner.its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No.
They are either A) flat out liying or not experience enough to know any better.
Both are not something to casually ignore.
If they called it a possible feature, but they weren't doing it, they would never hear the end of the whining. Years and years of incessant whining about housing. It would never stop, because it never does.
In this particular instance, they have a better understanding of their audience than you do. It doesn't matter why they aren't doing it, they aren't doing it and the only way to get people to stop whining about it is to tell them it's impossible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by PyrateLVIts like Adam Sandler movies. Each one more horrible than the last, yet he keeps on making them. WHY?!Because people will buy it
Click is pretty good =/.To the OP, either you designate locations for housing at the very beginning of world design or you run into conflicts later on as you try to shuffle things around to create such areas. Considering the game has been in development for about 5 years, I have to say that most of their world design is probably done, so open-world housing is more than likely never making it in (at least according to the information provided by the article). I could very easily see the game having instanced housing, maybe not at launch, but implemented farther down the road, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that since past Elder Scrolls games did not provide you with the freedom to customize house placement, orientation, etc. (at least not that I know of).
I think people need to be wary of making up better excuses for Zenimax then they are able to do for themselves. What I mean is the statement they made of 'cant do player housing like players want' is a far cry from 'we might do it later'.Regardless of if its likely they or not for them to do in the future players should hold them accountable for what they just said, not for something that might happen down the line.That is my view anyway.
You're nitpicking the quote. Obviously they could add housing. They could add open world housing and they could let players stick houses wherever they wanted to. There is no technological reason they can't do it. What they can't do is have the housing players want, within the constraints of the game they have built. It wouldn't introduce insurmountable technical issues, it would introduce social issues. Either the housing would not be what people want, or it would impact other aspects of game play in a negative manner.
its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No.
They are either A) flat out liying or not experience enough to know any better.
Both are not something to casually ignore.
If they called it a possible feature, but they weren't doing it, they would never hear the end of the whining. Years and years of incessant whining about housing. It would never stop, because it never does.
In this particular instance, they have a better understanding of their audience than you do. It doesn't matter why they aren't doing it, they aren't doing it and the only way to get people to stop whining about it is to tell them it's impossible.
incorrect.
The correct answer which everyone who has played an MMO would clearly understand is this:
'we are not putting in player housing, we might address it well after the game has gone live but for now its off the table.'
does that statement have holes? yes
is it better than 'not doing player housing because its not possible like players want' TOTALLY
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
They cant do player housing the way players want with-in the confines of their game design.
Zenimax cant have players dropping houses every 50 meters when they have static 3x Mob spawn points every 10.
1. that is not what they said, you are making excuses for them. They should pay you.
2. you dont even know what their game design is you are literally making up reasons.
3. non-instanced housing in a large open world in FPS view? Darkfall.
Last thing I would do is make an excuse for these guys
No I dont know exactly what their game design is. I was being facitious and poking fun at the "standard" MMO feature of 3 mobs every 10m.
I already know DF and MO can do it.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by stealthbrOriginally posted by PyrateLVIts like Adam Sandler movies. Each one more horrible than the last, yet he keeps on making them. WHY?!Because people will buy it
Click is pretty good =/.To the OP, either you designate locations for housing at the very beginning of world design or you run into conflicts later on as you try to shuffle things around to create such areas. Considering the game has been in development for about 5 years, I have to say that most of their world design is probably done, so open-world housing is more than likely never making it in (at least according to the information provided by the article). I could very easily see the game having instanced housing, maybe not at launch, but implemented farther down the road, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that since past Elder Scrolls games did not provide you with the freedom to customize house placement, orientation, etc. (at least not that I know of).I think people need to be wary of making up better excuses for Zenimax then they are able to do for themselves. What I mean is the statement they made of 'cant do player housing like players want' is a far cry from 'we might do it later'.Regardless of if its likely they or not for them to do in the future players should hold them accountable for what they just said, not for something that might happen down the line.That is my view anyway.You're nitpicking the quote. Obviously they could add housing. They could add open world housing and they could let players stick houses wherever they wanted to. There is no technological reason they can't do it. What they can't do is have the housing players want, within the constraints of the game they have built. It wouldn't introduce insurmountable technical issues, it would introduce social issues. Either the housing would not be what people want, or it would impact other aspects of game play in a negative manner.its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No. They are either A) flat out liying or not experience enough to know any better.Both are not something to casually ignore. If they called it a possible feature, but they weren't doing it, they would never hear the end of the whining. Years and years of incessant whining about housing. It would never stop, because it never does. In this particular instance, they have a better understanding of their audience than you do. It doesn't matter why they aren't doing it, they aren't doing it and the only way to get people to stop whining about it is to tell them it's impossible. incorrect.
The correct answer which everyone who has played an MMO would clearly understand is this:
'we are not putting in player housing, we might address it well after the game has gone live but for now its off the table.'
does that statement have holes? yes
is it better than 'not doing player housing because its not possible like players want' TOTALLY
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing.
It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing.
It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.
not even close.
option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing
option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information.
its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru.
understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing. It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.
not even close.
option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing
option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information.
its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru.
understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information.
Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want.
The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Player housing does nothing for a better gaming experience in MMOs. Just a waste of money, time and resources.
Really a dumb thing to say... What do you when you've leveled up all the classes , you're burned out in PVP , you start to collect stuff in-game customize your house increase your property... MMORPG's are starting to die and if they don't start incorporating Player housing and old Ultima Online ,SWG , concepts there days will be limited , Warhammer Online 1.5 million subs @ launch , deader then kelseys nuts .... SWTOR the next WoW killer , don't think anyone thinks that today... Ultima online 16 years later still chugging away with enough subscribers for EA to turn a profit , pay employees , and develope expansions.... What does that say about player housing? It says if you want to stand apart and be sucessful you better incorporate it , or your another WoW clone that the market will chew up and spit out....
It isn't a dumb thing to say. It does nothing for HIS gaming experience in an MMO, and HIS experience is the standard by which everyone else should be measured. It's really compelling logic when you think about it.
Correction: It does nothing for the actual gameplay of the game, which is important. And, it's something that can devalue the game for many others. I don't even care about the godl sink part, I hate the idea of having to go somewhere, go into something and look into someting else to get my stuff. Their are smarter ways to display things like trophies or keep momentos. Especially if player housing is primarily a personal thing. Thats not to say that having a place to keep your stuff isn't a good thing, but I'd rather this be done in traditonal RPG ways (non-elder scroll) and just give me inventory and let me allow people to click on things. If i'm growing plants or raising cattle, let me do it anywhere. Houses tend to be more convinent than convinent. I remember in FFXI i all together stopped going to my house cause i hated traveling to cities to do so. In SWTOR it was SUCH a chore. 20 minutes to get to your house.
How come no one ever suggests "new" things. People keep wanting things from the last game. Why not a new way to keep inventory as opposed to stale houses?
It's why i'm glad that Guild wars havn't said anything about player ousing. They are thinking of someting original to do with it. That's important.
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing. It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.
not even close.
option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing
option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information.
its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru.
understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information.
Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want.
The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.
1. analogies are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.
2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that.
3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Because the creative director is the former lead of tabula rasa - a game that got better AFTER he left - and wouldn't have the first clue how to make an MMO people wanted, especially one based on an already familiar massively single player game. I'm getting the feeling he's using WoW as his template, much like most MMO developers these days. Nothing I've read so far tells me what they're working on is an Elder Scrolls game, aside from it being in the title. This will be a fail on the level of SWTOR, I'm sure of it.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by lizardbones
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing. It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible. not even close. option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doingoption 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information.its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru.understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better' Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information. Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want. The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up. 1. analogies are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.
2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that.
3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.
1. You're assuming that I don't understand your point of view, which I don't think is the case. I think your point of view is nitpicking.
2. I don't know anything of the kind. If they didn't write in the capability of adding structures to the world, based on player input, then it's not possible to add open world housing. It may not be possible to add any dynamic content to the world. Rewriting the engine to add such dynamic content is not going to be cheap. Changing anything about how the base engine works is not going to be cheap, especially after 5 years of development time. There are a couple people on these forums who are actually writing games and MMORPG, so they could comment better than I, but that change does not seem to be a trivial change.
3. If they consider housing impossible for any reason, it's better to say it now, rather than waffle about it for years and years. It doesn't matter why they think it's impossible to do right. Not enough players would like the implementation, too many players decorate their homes instead of doing three way PvP, whatever. There's no point in giving any additional information because players would just pick it apart and obsess over it for years. They can know this because it happens every single time housing is brought up in any game where developers make a statement on housing that isn't, "Yes, we're adding housing."
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing. It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.
not even close. option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doingoption 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information.its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru.understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information. Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want. The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.
1. analogies are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.
2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that.
3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.
1. You're assuming that I don't understand your point of view, which I don't think is the case. I think your point of view is nitpicking.
2. I don't know anything of the kind. If they didn't write in the capability of adding structures to the world, based on player input, then it's not possible to add open world housing. It may not be possible to add any dynamic content to the world. Rewriting the engine to add such dynamic content is not going to be cheap. Changing anything about how the base engine works is not going to be cheap, especially after 5 years of development time. There are a couple people on these forums who are actually writing games and MMORPG, so they could comment better than I, but that change does not seem to be a trivial change.
3. If they consider housing impossible for any reason, it's better to say it now, rather than waffle about it for years and years. It doesn't matter why they think it's impossible to do right. Not enough players would like the implementation, too many players decorate their homes instead of doing three way PvP, whatever. There's no point in giving any additional information because players would just pick it apart and obsess over it for years. They can know this because it happens every single time housing is brought up in any game where developers make a statement on housing that isn't, "Yes, we're adding housing."
I will just address the last part. The second one kind of suggests that you know something about the existing game engine that you actually dont. It also implies you understand their meaning of 'how players want' which for this player is pretty much just Darkfall Housing.
If they felt like they needed to explain why then they need to understand their audience. Their lack of understanding is extreemly clear in thier response. There is a ton of differen answers they could have given that would have been honest, more generall specific and at the same time not making them look moronic.
In other words they could have said 'player housing is not possible because of this....' oh and 'what players want' who the f8ck do they think they are?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
How many times has that been said.
Every game recently has one really good new feature, yet they all still are vapid clones at the core and flop a few months after launch. Why anyone still has a slither of hope I really cant understand, how much more precedent do people need?
Player housing is nitpicking. The design of the game is sounding better, is it elderscroll, at its heart they seem to be wanting it to be.
]Combat has changed, well that's good it's alwayhs sucked in elder scroll. Combat was never the strong point of the game.
Player housing. Again, in a single player game i think its important. In a multiplayer game i coudl give a care. I look at it the George Carlin way. A house is only a place to keep your stuff. Well, if the game gives us other ways to keep our stuff why do i care about housing. I've had houses in a couple games, it was neat when it was invented but in the lasdt two games they were more annoyance than anything. Who cares if people can cometo my house.
And for those crying housing in the real world, theres neve a threat of being robbed in the single player game, so i expecvt that in the multiplayer game. I also don't want the annoynace of having to look for my house. In the single player game i can at least find it fairly easy.
I've read previews on here and on IGN. Both described a game that was devout of a trinity and allowed you access to dungeons that had puzzles and monsters similar to elder scroll.
My hope comes from the fact that GW2 comes out this year, and its effecting a lot of future game designs, this one included.
Well if they were actually making a innovative MMO and bringing an Elders scrolls world for players to live in then yes it does a lot for a the MMO in regard to player formed communities if the housing is not an instance.
They serve as vendor spots, or place you have a garden to grow things used by other players, the list could go on with some imagination. In UO housing was far from nothing. Now the wow formula yes, housing is a bit of fluff that pointless for the most part. Elders scrolls should not be a themepark, it should have been a world to live in and let the players create the drama.
its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No.
They are either A) flat out liying or
not experience enough to know any better.
Both are not something to casually ignore.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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I am less concerned is player housing should or shouldnt be in an MMO. I am concerned about the statement.
'player housing is not possible as players want it' demonstrates a HUGE lack of experience and knowedge. If it was an a job interview the interview would have been over.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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How many times has that been said.
Every game recently has one really good new feature, yet they all still are vapid clones at the core and flop a few months after launch. Why anyone still has a slither of hope I really cant understand, how much more precedent do people need?
If you read the description of the game mechanics, and ignore the marketing buzz words, then you should be able to get an idea of how the game will play. SWToR was very similar to WoW in game play. This was fairly obvious from all the information they released about the game. Anyone who was shocked or surprised did not read about the game's mechanics. The same could be said for Rift. The similarities and differences between playing WoW and Rift were all presented before the game released...there were no surprises. TESO is no different. There are more differences than similarities with WoW, compared to Rift. The more I hear about TESO, the less like WoW it sounds.
TESO has enough mechanical differences to not play like a WoW clone. Again, that doesn't mean it's going to be a good game and it certainly doesn't mean it's going to feel like playing an Elder Scrolls game. Calling it a WoW clone doesn't help when the issue is how much it isn't like the Elder Scrolls series, not how much like WoW it is.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So, let's make this clear.
You don't want houses in a MMO because it is annoying for YOU. Because YOU don't care about housing and all of the benefits that they create, YOU want everyone to suffer from it's exclusion. YOU also don't care if someone comes to your house.
Do you believe that everyone thinks like you? Do you really?
Here's what you are doing. Because YOU don't believe it adds anything to YOUR game experience, YOU don't care if all of the people who like it, don't have it. Nice mentality. Adding housing to a game that you play in would not affect your experience, but you are against it. You don't have to own a house, but you don't want others to because they enjoy it.
So ultimately. You are happy when other people are upset? That's what I've gathered from your post.
They cant do player housing the way players want with-in the confines of their game design.
Zenimax cant have players dropping houses every 50 meters when they have static 3x Mob spawn points every 10.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Limited houses is still better than no housing. They have plenty of money behind a HUGE IP. There is no reason that they couldn't figure something out.
1. that is not what they said, you are making excuses for them. They should pay you.
2. you dont even know what their game design is you are literally making up reasons.
3. non-instanced housing in a large open world in FPS view? Darkfall.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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I'm a player. I don't want that. So apparently they aren't in tune with players who have a bit of logic and common sense?
I've already fixed this problem with my take on housing earlier in this discussion.
I think people need to be wary of making up better excuses for Zenimax then they are able to do for themselves. What I mean is the statement they made of 'cant do player housing like players want' is a far cry from 'we might do it later'. Regardless of if its likely they or not for them to do in the future players should hold them accountable for what they just said, not for something that might happen down the line. That is my view anyway.
You're nitpicking the quote. Obviously they could add housing. They could add open world housing and they could let players stick houses wherever they wanted to. There is no technological reason they can't do it. What they can't do is have the housing players want, within the constraints of the game they have built. It wouldn't introduce insurmountable technical issues, it would introduce social issues. Either the housing would not be what people want, or it would impact other aspects of game play in a negative manner.
its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No.
They are either A) flat out liying or
not experience enough to know any better.
Both are not something to casually ignore.
If they called it a possible feature, but they weren't doing it, they would never hear the end of the whining. Years and years of incessant whining about housing. It would never stop, because it never does.
In this particular instance, they have a better understanding of their audience than you do. It doesn't matter why they aren't doing it, they aren't doing it and the only way to get people to stop whining about it is to tell them it's impossible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
incorrect.
The correct answer which everyone who has played an MMO would clearly understand is this:
'we are not putting in player housing, we might address it well after the game has gone live but for now its off the table.'
does that statement have holes? yes
is it better than 'not doing player housing because its not possible like players want' TOTALLY
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Last thing I would do is make an excuse for these guys
No I dont know exactly what their game design is. I was being facitious and poking fun at the "standard" MMO feature of 3 mobs every 10m.
I already know DF and MO can do it.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
dig it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think people need to be wary of making up better excuses for Zenimax then they are able to do for themselves. What I mean is the statement they made of 'cant do player housing like players want' is a far cry from 'we might do it later'. Regardless of if its likely they or not for them to do in the future players should hold them accountable for what they just said, not for something that might happen down the line. That is my view anyway.
You're nitpicking the quote. Obviously they could add housing. They could add open world housing and they could let players stick houses wherever they wanted to. There is no technological reason they can't do it. What they can't do is have the housing players want, within the constraints of the game they have built. It wouldn't introduce insurmountable technical issues, it would introduce social issues. Either the housing would not be what people want, or it would impact other aspects of game play in a negative manner.
its not nickpicking. Would you let someone build you a house with such an obviously wrong answer to a question? No. They are either A) flat out liying or
If they called it a possible feature, but they weren't doing it, they would never hear the end of the whining. Years and years of incessant whining about housing. It would never stop, because it never does. In this particular instance, they have a better understanding of their audience than you do. It doesn't matter why they aren't doing it, they aren't doing it and the only way to get people to stop whining about it is to tell them it's impossible.
incorrect.
The correct answer which everyone who has played an MMO would clearly understand is this:
'we are not putting in player housing, we might address it well after the game has gone live but for now its off the table.'
does that statement have holes? yes
is it better than 'not doing player housing because its not possible like players want' TOTALLY
If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing.
It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
not even close.
option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing
option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information.
its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru.
understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
They are lying to us. End of convo.
I would say because housing doesn't add anything to the gameplay or the game world including RP side. It is a waste of time and rescources.
Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information.
Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want.
The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Correction: It does nothing for the actual gameplay of the game, which is important. And, it's something that can devalue the game for many others. I don't even care about the godl sink part, I hate the idea of having to go somewhere, go into something and look into someting else to get my stuff. Their are smarter ways to display things like trophies or keep momentos. Especially if player housing is primarily a personal thing. Thats not to say that having a place to keep your stuff isn't a good thing, but I'd rather this be done in traditonal RPG ways (non-elder scroll) and just give me inventory and let me allow people to click on things. If i'm growing plants or raising cattle, let me do it anywhere. Houses tend to be more convinent than convinent. I remember in FFXI i all together stopped going to my house cause i hated traveling to cities to do so. In SWTOR it was SUCH a chore. 20 minutes to get to your house.
How come no one ever suggests "new" things. People keep wanting things from the last game. Why not a new way to keep inventory as opposed to stale houses?
It's why i'm glad that Guild wars havn't said anything about player ousing. They are thinking of someting original to do with it. That's important.
1. analogies are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.
2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that.
3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Because the creative director is the former lead of tabula rasa - a game that got better AFTER he left - and wouldn't have the first clue how to make an MMO people wanted, especially one based on an already familiar massively single player game. I'm getting the feeling he's using WoW as his template, much like most MMO developers these days. Nothing I've read so far tells me what they're working on is an Elder Scrolls game, aside from it being in the title. This will be a fail on the level of SWTOR, I'm sure of it.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
not even close. option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information. its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru. understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information. Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want. The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.
1. analogies are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.
2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that.
3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.
1. You're assuming that I don't understand your point of view, which I don't think is the case. I think your point of view is nitpicking.
2. I don't know anything of the kind. If they didn't write in the capability of adding structures to the world, based on player input, then it's not possible to add open world housing. It may not be possible to add any dynamic content to the world. Rewriting the engine to add such dynamic content is not going to be cheap. Changing anything about how the base engine works is not going to be cheap, especially after 5 years of development time. There are a couple people on these forums who are actually writing games and MMORPG, so they could comment better than I, but that change does not seem to be a trivial change.
3. If they consider housing impossible for any reason, it's better to say it now, rather than waffle about it for years and years. It doesn't matter why they think it's impossible to do right. Not enough players would like the implementation, too many players decorate their homes instead of doing three way PvP, whatever. There's no point in giving any additional information because players would just pick it apart and obsess over it for years. They can know this because it happens every single time housing is brought up in any game where developers make a statement on housing that isn't, "Yes, we're adding housing."
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I will just address the last part. The second one kind of suggests that you know something about the existing game engine that you actually dont. It also implies you understand their meaning of 'how players want' which for this player is pretty much just Darkfall Housing.
If they felt like they needed to explain why then they need to understand their audience. Their lack of understanding is extreemly clear in thier response. There is a ton of differen answers they could have given that would have been honest, more generall specific and at the same time not making them look moronic.
In other words they could have said 'player housing is not possible because of this....' oh and 'what players want' who the f8ck do they think they are?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me