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Why (most) MMO developers are insane.

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  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    My conclusion based on observation of the evolution of the genre, and all these failures you mention is that I am not sure that it is the Devellopers that want to do the WoW formula...

    It is the Producers...because they have to please the Investors witha Formula that has been proven to work...

    The Investors are not necessarilly gamers, they may not even have the slightest idea what an MMO really is...all they play with is Money, they are in it for the Money and Short term gain is their goal, and will insist on the money being spent to a winning formula, otherwise they will not invest, and there will not be a game if they do not do, or it will be develloped Indy...and then players will not bother checking it...(which is a nother story).

    So...really a vicious circle here, that we are all cought in to. This is why, alternative approach to funding is on the rise, if you want one day for someone to make a game that you would like to play.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    LotRO is definitely not a WoW clone. It plays different, it feels different, it's setup / designed different, and it's also a pretty successful MMO. It's goal was never to 'beat WoW'. It was to make a massive game around Tolkein lore, which, surprise surprise. It did.

    Rather than being brief, I want to paste an entire email that I sent my friends back in March 2007 while playing in the LotRO beta:

    I'm already in the beta, and I gotta say... I will not be surprised in the least if Blizzard actually files a lawsuit for copyright infringement. The game is WoW. It is WoW. It would take less time to list off the differences than to list off the similarities. Everything, everything, is WoW.
     
    Cheap autopilot travel between towns that you've already visited.
    Quest NPCs have an icon over their head.
    Identical quest dialogue window, with selectable quest rewards.
    Quest rewards are Bind on Acquire, everything else is Bind on Equip.
    Quest reminders on the right side of the screen tell you in small text the name of the quest and your 3/8 Boar Ribs status.
    Going into stealth makes you crouch over, go transparent, and makes a "bwooooo" sound.
    Many professions, but each character can only choose a few of them.
    Trade skills require you to find a more advanced trainer after each interval, and they never fail and always give skill points if not too easy.
    New skills are bought at a class trainer every even-numbered level.
    Items and skills with cooldown become dimmed and then fade back in in a clockwise-manner.
    Your portrait, hp and mp bars are on the top left -- people in your group appear below that, slightly smaller.
    Enemy portrait, hp and mp bars are top center, and if the mob is unique then the portrait is encircled in a different color and style.
    No experience lost on death, just your equipment loses durability.
    Auction house... geez, the auction house...
     
    When I say that the auction house is identical, I mean that it would take minutes for an experienced guild, working together, to confidently conclude which game they are in just by looking at the auction house alone.

    I haven't gotten far enough into the game (and don't know enough about WoW, honestly) to see what other parallels there are, but what I've seen so far is practically appalling. Whatever innovations they've managed to fit in are way outshined by the blatant plagiarism. To me, this game looks like what you would get you asked somebody to make a WoW-killer, but that person had never played any other video game ever other than WoW.
     
    I mean, don't let that dissuade you guys from trying it out if you want to... I suppose that if someone is a big fan of WoW then they will probably like this too. But don't expect much more than you would from a WoW expansion, because that is effectively what this feels like.
     
    This probably seems silly given that this is a laundry list things that've become standard MMO UI (and it doesn't help that it's written in my signature overreactive style) but you may not realize that prior to WoW, no MMO had these things, or at most they only had one or two. This beta was shortly after I had ended a long run of FFXI followed by a short stint in vanilla WoW (just before BC). FFXI had zero of the characteristics on this list. EQ had zero. AO had zero. CoH might have had clockwise cooldown buttons, I don't remember... other than that, probably zero.
     
    The point I'm trying to make is that everyone would laugh if you called Rift a WoW clone based on the quest icons and the crouching transparent stealth. Those have become standard among most or all MMOs. LotRO ripped them from WoW back when WoW really was the only game doing them. It set the pace for how much copying developers could get away with. For the time it was released—a little more than 2 years after WoW—it was a shameless clone.

    image
  • skydiver12skydiver12 burgundPosts: 432Member


    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by dotdotdash Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. ... Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part. The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part. ... This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
    See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

     

    LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

     

    also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.



    Lotro is a WOW clone.
    WoW has many features of EQ and even some korean grinders cropped together 2005, but TIER "ENDGAME" Raiding with gear gates in this extend is sure one thing which is unique to WOW.
    In EQ there was still the ROAD, not just ___only___ "the endgame".

    And that is the "formular".


    The core of Lotro is exactly the core of WOW which does eliminate ANY sort of horizontal progression systems as well as any "sandbox" elements.This outweights anything else which made LOTRO simmilar to AC1 - 2.

    The epic book nor the fellow ship combos change anything in that.


    Part of the issue is, they don't actually "copy" it, they *try* to copy it without understanding that WOW had and still has issues with this system itself. Every features has a track record, a pending fix and reinvented itself a few times in WOW.

    Take Tier Raiding for example. One year it's restrictive as hell, by the end of the following year it's lackluster and allows quick catching up for twinks. That "forumlar" is everchanging and still developing. Itemgates have a lifecycle, restrictions change with patches.

    A poorly reengineered copy of a flawed system does not ring success in my theorybook. They don't understand that a snapshot of a "living" formular slapped over your game will not work.

    Just having an itemgate is not enough, you need also the lifecycels for a successfull copy. For that cycle you also need the itemization. If your items don't progress nor have the stat valuation you might reconsider if having an itemgating at all is a good idea.
    (Read: Radiance in lotro back in moria / mirkwood)


  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

     

    Here, for you to enjoy (and possibly inform yourself):

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgz4wa9VN6k&list=ELTi5WeO992Uo&index=0&feature=plcp

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    Including trolling.  And misquotes.  Ah, what's the use, he's a one-shot anyway.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Lee''s Summit, MOPosts: 285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disdena
    Originally posted by aesperus

    LotRO is definitely not a WoW clone. It plays different, it feels different, it's setup / designed different, and it's also a pretty successful MMO. It's goal was never to 'beat WoW'. It was to make a massive game around Tolkein lore, which, surprise surprise. It did.

    Rather than being brief, I want to paste an entire email that I sent my friends back in March 2007 while playing in the LotRO beta:

    I'm already in the beta, and I gotta say... I will not be surprised in the least if Blizzard actually files a lawsuit for copyright infringement. The game is WoW. It is WoW. It would take less time to list off the differences than to list off the similarities. Everything, everything, is WoW.
     
    Cheap autopilot travel between towns that you've already visited.
    Quest NPCs have an icon over their head.
    Identical quest dialogue window, with selectable quest rewards.
    Quest rewards are Bind on Acquire, everything else is Bind on Equip.
    Quest reminders on the right side of the screen tell you in small text the name of the quest and your 3/8 Boar Ribs status.
    Going into stealth makes you crouch over, go transparent, and makes a "bwooooo" sound.
    Many professions, but each character can only choose a few of them.
    Trade skills require you to find a more advanced trainer after each interval, and they never fail and always give skill points if not too easy.
    New skills are bought at a class trainer every even-numbered level.
    Items and skills with cooldown become dimmed and then fade back in in a clockwise-manner.
    Your portrait, hp and mp bars are on the top left -- people in your group appear below that, slightly smaller.
    Enemy portrait, hp and mp bars are top center, and if the mob is unique then the portrait is encircled in a different color and style.
    No experience lost on death, just your equipment loses durability.
    Auction house... geez, the auction house...
     
    When I say that the auction house is identical, I mean that it would take minutes for an experienced guild, working together, to confidently conclude which game they are in just by looking at the auction house alone.

    I haven't gotten far enough into the game (and don't know enough about WoW, honestly) to see what other parallels there are, but what I've seen so far is practically appalling. Whatever innovations they've managed to fit in are way outshined by the blatant plagiarism. To me, this game looks like what you would get you asked somebody to make a WoW-killer, but that person had never played any other video game ever other than WoW.
     
    I mean, don't let that dissuade you guys from trying it out if you want to... I suppose that if someone is a big fan of WoW then they will probably like this too. But don't expect much more than you would from a WoW expansion, because that is effectively what this feels like.
     
    This probably seems silly given that this is a laundry list things that've become standard MMO UI (and it doesn't help that it's written in my signature overreactive style) but you may not realize that prior to WoW, no MMO had these things, or at most they only had one or two. This beta was shortly after I had ended a long run of FFXI followed by a short stint in vanilla WoW (just before BC). FFXI had zero of the characteristics on this list. EQ had zero. AO had zero. CoH might have had clockwise cooldown buttons, I don't remember... other than that, probably zero.
     
    The point I'm trying to make is that everyone would laugh if you called Rift a WoW clone based on the quest icons and the crouching transparent stealth. Those have become standard among most or all MMOs. LotRO ripped them from WoW back when WoW really was the only game doing them. It set the pace for how much copying developers could get away with. For the time it was released—a little more than 2 years after WoW—it was a shameless clone.

    Thats...actually quite amazing. Reading that threw me back into an old perspective (I felt the same back then), and the realization just how much of that is now taken for granted as standard is amazing. It seems the standard may have become so ingrained into our minds that minute differences in actual design may be interpreted as massive. Starting to wonder if GW2 really is that large of a leap from the rest now. Certainly key aspects like the base shift from competition to cooperation seem large...but now I just can't help but wonder if current design has become so standardized that I cannot imagine a new direction.

    Frightening thought really. As a hobby I like to analyze and design game systems/mechanics, and now I'm wondering if I have been so unconditionally biased in them that they're all really the same design with merely a different shade of lipstick.

    Thanks for that. Its given me something to think about, even if right now its just exhaustion and the booze doing the thinking.

  • ValuaValua LiverpoolPosts: 520Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

     

    Here, for you to enjoy (and possibly inform yourself):

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgz4wa9VN6k&list=ELTi5WeO992Uo&index=0&feature=plcp

     

    I still see the massive similarities? 

     

    If you don't then you are deluded.

     

    I wouldn't call GW2 a WoW clone, like Rift, but it's not far off.

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by Valua
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

     

    Here, for you to enjoy (and possibly inform yourself):

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mgz4wa9VN6k&list=ELTi5WeO992Uo&index=0&feature=plcp

     

    I still see the massive similarities? 

     

    If you don't then you are deluded.

     

    I wouldn't call GW2 a WoW clone, like Rift, but it's not far off.

    A BMW and a Trabant also have similarities... both are cars, both have wheels, both have a motor, and both were made in a country called "Germany".

    If you go this way, WoW is a UO clone... don't make me repost the facepalming Polar Bear picture, please ;)

    EDIT: nevermind, just saw your post history and I see where you come from... my bad for not checking before - if you think GW2 is close to a WOW clone, I invite you to try the game, because you will then know how wrong such an affirmation is.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member

    GW2 isn't a pure WOW clone, but it's still an EQ based mmo. Huge focus on combat, quests, dungeons, BG's, rvr, normalc rafting, fantasy, etc. This isn't a bad thing.

    You know what a real, non themepark style mmorpg would be like? Western, third-person shooter, no quests or dungeons, taming and riding horse, but with a compex mechanic to make hard, open world pvp with outlaws, robbing trains, etc.

    There, a compete non wow clone mmo. Why don't devs do it? Because a AAA company banking millions of dollars on a video game isn't going to put it in a game that's so strange and different that it may not allow them to recover their money.

    EQ type themepark with modifications earns the money. Do they lose players over time? Of course, but it's a far less insane move.

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    GW2 isn't a pure WOW clone, but it's still an EQ based mmo. Huge focus on combat, quests, dungeons, BG's, rvr, normalc rafting, fantasy, etc. This isn't a bad thing.

    I agree on the "huge focus on combat" part, but GW2 is more a Asheron's Call 1 clone than it will ever be an EQ clone. People who played AC1 know what I'm talking about (AC1 was also combat centric).

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    You undermined your intended topic by drawing some poor comparisons that were too much of a stretch and not critical to your overall point.

    While I agree that the reptition of the WoW formula caused a huge stalling out in terms of MMOs actually developing, no one with first hand experience would find the parallels you draw to be apt. Some of the games you list are quite simply much better compared with games other than WoW. 

    Look at the overall game experiences in Horizons, Shadowbane, AC1 & AC2, DAoC, Ryzom, Wish, and EQ for starters, then consider if WoW is really the most accurate comparison for all the games on your above list. GW2 for example steers away from some of the largest elements of WoWs recipe (linear task hub grinding advancement, and gear driven endgame raid grinding), which, anyone who's played GW2 can tell you, makes for a much different experience than the WoW experience.

    WoW is simply not the first name that comes to mind when searching for the most accurate comparison for a number of the games you listed. 

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    GW2 isn't a pure WOW clone, but it's still an EQ based mmo. Huge focus on combat, quests, dungeons, BG's, rvr, normalc rafting, fantasy, etc. This isn't a bad thing.

    I agree on the "huge focus on combat" part, but GW2 is more a Asheron's Call 1 clone than it will ever be an EQ clone. People who played AC1 know what I'm talking about (AC1 was also combat centric).

    Never played AC since i'm not from that time ;), but GW2 is based on EQ themepark style.

    PVP is BG's and large scale, difference is that you can jump from level 2 do to the way it's made

    PVE is quests (PS and DE, so to speak), dungeons, crafting, advancing in areas with more of the same content until max level, drain content, wait for more.

    is this bad? Not at all. GW2, while a themepark, is more opened than normal wow clones for example, and there's also scaling. Don't take it the wrong way, i'm not hating on it, since i just said it's not a wow clone.

    EDIT: Back on topic, FPS'ers are very popular with the masses, even non gamers, that's why there so many of them. Devs make what's popular. MMORPG are a huge risk to make. It's not just make it, sell box and be done with it. They have to keep updating, fixing, improving for a long time.

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    GW2 isn't a pure WOW clone, but it's still an EQ based mmo. Huge focus on combat, quests, dungeons, BG's, rvr, normalc rafting, fantasy, etc. This isn't a bad thing.

    I agree on the "huge focus on combat" part, but GW2 is more a Asheron's Call 1 clone than it will ever be an EQ clone. People who played AC1 know what I'm talking about (AC1 was also combat centric).

    Never played AC since i'm not from that time ;),

    This explains a lot... a WoW clone generation person always has a hard time to imagine something else can exist.

    but GW2 is based on EQ themepark style.

    Nope, it isn't. It's a mix of several styles, and it definitely totally breaks from the EQ clone "gear carrot" style.

    PVP is BG's and large scale, difference is that you can jump from level 2 do to the way it's made

    This is a general observation, just like "every car uses some kind of fuel" would be.

    PVE is quests (PS and DE, so to speak), dungeons, crafting, advancing in areas with more of the same content until max level, drain content, wait for more.

    Same as for PvP, except that "end game" starts at level 1 in GW2. You're actually saying "zomg, a MMORPG is looking like... a MMORPG". You must be the grandkid of sherlock holmes for such an insightful observation really ;)

    is this bad? Not at all. GW2, while a themepark, is more opened than normal wow clones for example, and there's also scaling. Don't take it the wrong way, i'm not hating on it, since i just said it's not a wow clone.

    So you say it's the same, and now you say it's different... make up your mind?

     

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

     

    This explains a lot... a WoW clone generation person always has a hard time to imagine something else can exist.

     

    Smart comebck. I don't like WOW clones myself. I prefer sandboxes to themeparks. But acording to you, i don't know they exist. ;) Take it easy.

    Look, we'll just get into semantics at this point. I guess that what defines EQ themepark is different for both of us and i think the huge "Themeparks vs sandbox" comparision threads are enough to tells to stay away.

    To me, GW2 is still a normal themepark, simply improved upon it's features, like combat, questing, scaling, etc. To me, that's not that special. I presonally don't see anything that makes it truly that different.

    To you, the definition is not the same. So we'll leave it at that. Like i say i'm not hating on the game. Let's not try to kill each ;)

  • daelnordaelnor Manteca, CAPosts: 1,569Member

    Warhammer, again, was based more around a DAoC model, than the WoW one. Just because something has quests & gear doesn't make it WoW. WAR was far more PvP centered than WoW ever was. Like AoC, it failed because it was released too soon / unfished. It had a lot of bugs, and a lack of support from EA. Nothing to do w/ WoW.

     

    Sorry man....Warhammer's problem was that it DIDN'T base itself around the DAOC model. The only reason it even had keep sieges in it was because (we) beta testers screamed for it before release.  They designed it to be a more restrictive, cheaper version of WoW...which is why it sucked.  You can thank the beta testers for slapping the dev's upside the head and having them get what little bit of DAOC as they did into it.  For some dumb reason they tried their best to NOT use anything from DAOC.

    The only cool thing to come out of WAR, unfortunately was the public quest system.  They dropped the ball on everything else.

     

    image

  • IrusIrus Wichita, KSPosts: 774Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    Insanity is quoting that quote and not realizing how stupid it is.

    Which is something you are reflecting, in fact, since the dynamics of what happened with these games are far more complex than the hyper-simplistic "they tried to beat WoW -> they failed" train of thought you are carrying here.

    LotRO doesn't feel anything like WoW to me. I don't know what happened at launch but that wasn't the issue.

    WAR was mostly a PvP game so I really don't know what you're getting at with WAR.

    AoC failed because it had a very bad launch and a drastic switch between initial and later levels. It probably would have been successful as hell if they launched and debugged it properly. And wtf does AoC share with WoW?

    Rift is probably the more coherent WoW simulator in terms of what it's trying to achieve (but not a direct clone in mechanics). It is not doing badly at all, and is probably going to be the place of transition for most WoW endgamers eventually.

    SW:TOR was also a more direct (than RIFT) WoW clone, but even then I'm not convinced that killed it. I'm pretty sure it died because it was just a lousy game with lazy development where it had no content, bad quest management, lied about the leveling experience, and generally tried to mix elements that didn't work well together.

    GW2 is so unlike WoW it's not funny.

    We know almost nothing about TESO, except that it looks more like a GW2 clone than a WoW clone.

    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    Smart comebck. I don't like WOW clones myself. I prefer sandboxes to themeparks. 

    Not all themeparks are WoW clones. Drop that already. In fact, I'm quite certain you don't know what a sandbox actually is and just like FFA PvP games.

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member
    Originally posted by Irus
    Originally posted by dotdotdash
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    Smart comebck. I don't like WOW clones myself. I prefer sandboxes to themeparks. 

    Not all themeparks are WoW clones. Drop that already. In fact, I'm quite certain you don't know what a sandbox actually is and just like FFA PvP games.

    If you read my posts, you'd see i called GW2 both a themepark and a non wow clone. I also like TSW and TERA, both of which i don't view has wow clones. What do i have to drop?

    I do think ffa owpvp with resources, politics, economy, etc is the best model for open world mmos (not talking about loading screens), but it takes both a really mature community and good punishiment systems to make it work. I hate lowbie gankers, for exmple. BTW, i don't hate themepaks at at all, just prefer games with player created/driven worlds, if done right.

    But thanks for putting words in my mouth :D

  • VPgearchinVPgearchin waterbury, CTPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    the so called "wow formula" brings in money, an already established playerbase market and a roundabout way of doing things.

    image

  • yewsefyewsef KuwaitPosts: 335Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

     

    LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

     

    also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.

    WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.

    WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.

    You again.

    How is WoW a clone of EQ?

    They both use third person view? (Not)

    They both have same itemization? (Not, when everything else uses WoW's itemization)

    They both have Auction Houses? (Not, when everything else does)

    You can attack ANY NPC on the world on both games? (Not in WoW)

    They both have Talent Trees? (Not for EverQuest, Rift, AoC, SWTOR and others all have Talent Tree system of some sort)

    They are both Seamless? (EverQuest is not)

    Monsters don't quit chasing you? (Not in WoW, yes in EQ)

    Faction system? (WoW has a linear, simplified, redundant and without any kind of penalty "reputation" system that plays and feels very different from EQ's faction system)

    They both have two factions fighting amongs each other? (Not in EQ while that's true for Rift, Aion, SWTOR, Warhammer..etc)

     

    The list is too long for me to even bother, if you wish I can keep going. But maybe I'll write a complete list and post it on a website just to link it to any fool who claims that WoW is an EverQuest "Clone".

    So, can you tell me how WoW is an EverQuest clone in your opinion?

     

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member
    Originally posted by GTwander

    Tera isn't doing all that well, they assume it's because it's "too different", but don't see how the west reacts to Eastern art styles and aesthetics (poorly).

     

    Aion did a lot better, though, with very similar eastern aesthetics.  It was also more of a departure from WoW, than Tera.  I've seen lots of comments that Tera isn't doing well, because its too much like WoW.

     

    ..and yet the out-of-touch devs and executives behind the next big MMO, just looking at the numbers, will think Tera did badly for the one thing it did differently.  The combat system.  The one thing is did almost indisputably right - and yet, next game?  Stick with tab-targetting, it's been proven more popular and that deviating from it doesn't do well.

     

    What most successful devs are seems to just be grossly out-of-touch.  I guess actual gamers are too busy playing games to get jobs making them (or even when they do, they're less likely to be so career focused)

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • yewsefyewsef KuwaitPosts: 335Member
    Originally posted by GTwander

    The main problem is that games that release doing something 'different' still don't do that good, albeit for different reasons.

    DDO never did that well, they assume it was because it was "too different", but they fail to attribute it to the claustrophobic nature of the world design.

    Tera isn't doing all that well, they assume it's because it's "too different", but don't see how the west reacts to Eastern art styles and aesthetics (poorly).

    Mortal Online is doing... how it's doing... and they *know* it's because it;s "too different", but fail to see the mark of 'amateur' all over it that any normal person can see.

     

    It's a failure to see the big picture and be stuck in hyperbole. A business degree doesn't make one any kind of analyst, it just makes them a person who was able to afford a 3-4 year degree - nothing more.

    Exactly.

    MMORPGs now play too similarly to be playable. No one wants to play game they've been playing for 8 years too many times. When a game comes with a complete NEW FOUNDATION but at the same time understand what MMORPGs are all about (flash news folks, it's not about a "story" you force it on the players). MMORPGs are about many things happening in the world which makes you as an individual part of it. If everything is steam-lines, instanced and soloed, you won't feel part of that world.

    A few of the MANY game designs concept that have been abandoned which I, ME MYSELF, want.. remembers, this is just a few, not all the list. Which is; bring back down-time (but not as extreme as EverQuest) say 50% of what EverQuest was. Overcoming inconveniences should be part of the game, if everything is convenient then what are you going to look forward too? Classes/People interacting with each others overcoming their inconveniences in the world as a team.

    Down time is important and I really miss that. Simple yet strategic (resource management) and tactical (posititioning and knowledge) combat. No instant-traveling but player-skills and abilities improving traveling speed (whether increasing speed, teleporting, summoning, turning you into a spirit...etc) or horses (and make them attainable at level 1 but cost a lot money for a level 1 character; which should make rolling an alt less of a burden). Bring back real trading, the hell with the auction house. Bring back Cloak of Flames, Tunic of Fungi... let most items tradable but hard to get (no instancing, slow spawn time, place holders).

     

    These are some of many mechanics what made EverQuest UNIQUE. Don't re-do everquest but for crying out loud bring us something different than Quest Quest Quest, Kill Kill Kill, Solo Slol Solo, Instance-Group... this shit is OLD. Don't you get it? It's been YEARS now, what MORE of a hint do you NEED?!

     

     

  • IOOOIIOOOI NNNNNPosts: 2Member

    EVE says hi :)

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    Including trolling.  And misquotes.  Ah, what's the use, he's a one-shot anyway.

    HAH

     

    I appreciate your knack for cutting thru the BS Ice. Ya know dude, I think you are catching up to Loke n Kyleran as one of my favorite posters on this site.

     

    Now let me wipe off my virtual chin. image

     

     

     

     

     

    Disclaimer: I meant no insult to those of the alternative lifestyle.....was just being silly. image

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • bezadobezado Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 1,148Member


    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by dotdotdash Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW. ... Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part. The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part. ... This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
    See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

     

    LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

     

    also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.


    You're crazy, LOTRO was nothing like AC and AC2 was not AC but a remade game using the AC title. Get facts right. You ever played AC to compare LOTRO to it, I think not cause they are a million times apart.

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,754Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ashen_X

    This is only applicable if you can establish that these various developers actually expected to beat WoW.

    Exactly.

    Meanwhile many (possibly even most) of those games went on to be profitable.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

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