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worth coming back as a miner/orca flyer

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  • MurashuMurashu Ft Rucker, ALPosts: 1,394Member
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    This is about high sec ganks so your low and null sec examples don't apply since those areas are typically low traffic and once a threat appears in the local system chat you simply dock up and hide long before the threat is able to find you.  Infact, if CCP went ahead and removed the local chat channels from those areas and you'd get all sorts of people agreeing with the high sec miners about the underwhelming performance of hulks when you consider the cost of them.

    With skilled and fitted highsec gankers you'll be killed shortly after you initiate your warp drive even if you are aligned to an object and ATK  - it really doesn't matter.  Oh sure, a new pirate with low skills might not be able to pull it off but properly skilled and fitted folks will be pounding your ass long before your warp drive heats up enough for you to leave the belt.

    There's no tears, after all I quit playing this game a few months ago over issues with CCP not gameplay or player behavior, I'm just pointing out that you'd have to be a raging moron or have an ulterior  motive not to see that the risk vs. reward is significantly out of whack for the industry pilot when it comes to this issue and, as I said above, everyone would be on the same page if CCP removed the local chat channels in null and low sec.

    If you are waiting until you see a ganker land on grid with you before initiating warp then yes you are already dead. For those who are actually paying attention, they will see the ganker on d-scan 10-15 seconds before they ever come out of warp and should be well on the way to a station or POS.

     

    We have no local chat in WH space and people mining everyday without being ganked. They use the d-scan button or die. It's very simple.

    www.agonysend.org

  • HazelleHazelle Brampton, ONPosts: 760Member
    Originally posted by Wycliffe
    Originally posted by Hazelle
    Originally posted by Wycliffe
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    Not to the extent that you see a dramatic jump in prices as has been seen in the game after CCP set the new price levels with their tax.  That was CCPs direct doing and not player speculation.

    Not invincible just stand a fair chance of survival considering the price of the thing Vs. the price of the thing that can knock it down.

    There should be risk for both concerned and not all of the risk being on the industry pilot alone.

    As I said above, a cruel and harsh dystopian society for all concerned, not just for a few with cake and ice cream and paper party hats and goodie bags for the rest.  Industry pilots shouldn't feel like a pinata at children's birthday party - it's very rare that the pinata wins and if it does it's because one of the kids f'd up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ea-lbdxp4A 

    How much do you think it takes to kill a titan? Probably the same isk ratio as destroyer - hulk. Just a 1 mil rifter can tackle down a 1+ bil carrier while a blackbird keeps it jammed. On the otherhand, a skillful high sp pilot with implants and drugs in pirate faction cruiser, battleship or T3 can faceroll just about anything 1v1 (maybe up to 4-5 or higher depending on the comp) that it comes across with ease.

    You shouldn't be losing your industry ships. Not in highsec, not in lowsec, not in nullsec. If you do, it's because you weren't paying attention and thus deserved it. Quit crying or better yet don't, the EvE community thrives on tears.

    This is about high sec ganks so your low and null sec examples don't apply since those areas are typically low traffic and once a threat appears in the local system chat you simply dock up and hide long before the threat is able to find you.  Infact, if CCP went ahead and removed the local chat channels from those areas and you'd get all sorts of people agreeing with the high sec miners about the underwhelming performance of hulks when you consider the cost of them.

    With skilled and fitted highsec gankers you'll be killed shortly after you initiate your warp drive even if you are aligned to an object and ATK  - it really doesn't matter.  Oh sure, a new pirate with low skills might not be able to pull it off but properly skilled and fitted folks will be pounding your ass long before your warp drive heats up enough for you to leave the belt.

    There's no tears, after all I quit playing this game a few months ago over issues with CCP not gameplay or player behavior, I'm just pointing out that you'd have to be a raging moron or have an ulterior  motive not to see that the risk vs. reward is significantly out of whack for the industry pilot when it comes to this issue and, as I said above, everyone would be on the same page if CCP removed the local chat channels in null and low sec.

    Last time I checked there are tons of low traffic highsec systems with plenty of ore to mine. You see someone appearing on grid before they exit warp which has always been more than enough time for anyone aligned and paying attention to get away. Maybe if you had been playing you would know mining has recently become a far more lucrative profession than it was just a month ago. Aside from these scary boogie-men gankers that affect less than 1% of highsec miners, what risk is there again? You'd have to be "a raging moron or have an ulterior motive" to be complaining like this about a non-issue. I have friends from old corps who mine in highsec, all who have had attempted ganks against them and all who survived.

    So we both agree that for its price the tank sucks on the hulk?

    Was that really so hard to admit?

  • HazelleHazelle Brampton, ONPosts: 760Member
    Originally posted by Murashu
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    This is about high sec ganks so your low and null sec examples don't apply since those areas are typically low traffic and once a threat appears in the local system chat you simply dock up and hide long before the threat is able to find you.  Infact, if CCP went ahead and removed the local chat channels from those areas and you'd get all sorts of people agreeing with the high sec miners about the underwhelming performance of hulks when you consider the cost of them.

    With skilled and fitted highsec gankers you'll be killed shortly after you initiate your warp drive even if you are aligned to an object and ATK  - it really doesn't matter.  Oh sure, a new pirate with low skills might not be able to pull it off but properly skilled and fitted folks will be pounding your ass long before your warp drive heats up enough for you to leave the belt.

    There's no tears, after all I quit playing this game a few months ago over issues with CCP not gameplay or player behavior, I'm just pointing out that you'd have to be a raging moron or have an ulterior  motive not to see that the risk vs. reward is significantly out of whack for the industry pilot when it comes to this issue and, as I said above, everyone would be on the same page if CCP removed the local chat channels in null and low sec.

    If you are waiting until you see a ganker land on grid with you before initiating warp then yes you are already dead. For those who are actually paying attention, they will see the ganker on d-scan 10-15 seconds before they ever come out of warp and should be well on the way to a station or POS.

     

    We have no local chat in WH space and people mining everyday without being ganked. They use the d-scan button or die. It's very simple.

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

  • MurashuMurashu Ft Rucker, ALPosts: 1,394Member
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    Actually I said nothing about the tank on a hulk. I believe it has plenty of tank to perform it's intended role.

    www.agonysend.org

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    So we both agree that for its price the tank sucks on the hulk?

    Was that really so hard to admit?

    How much tank do you think is fair?

    There are t2 combat ships that cost more that have less tank.  Can my curse have more tank too?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • mWo4lifemWo4life pePosts: 119Member

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    It is not a problem of a hulk that ppl loose them due to gankers in h-s. Miners r just too greedy. Just ditch one mining upgrade, for damage control II, ditch some cargohold rigs for some shield rigs, ditch survay scanner for some shield hardnerer or something, and u should be able to tank long enough in h-s till concord comes and helps u with average size gank attack in 0.7 system.

     

     

  • HazelleHazelle Brampton, ONPosts: 760Member
    Originally posted by Murashu
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    Actually I said nothing about the tank on a hulk. I believe it has plenty of tank to perform it's intended role.

    I'm talking about beefing up the hulk to make ganks more like a pull on the old one armed bandit and less like hitting the automatic I win button and the point you make to counter my point is that you should evade the attacks altogether by picking potencial enemies out in heavy traffic high sec and do it every 10 seconds no less.

     

  • HazelleHazelle Brampton, ONPosts: 760Member
    Originally posted by mWo4life

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    It is not a problem of a hulk that ppl loose them due to gankers in h-s. Miners r just too greedy. Just ditch one mining upgrade, for damage control II, ditch some cargohold rigs for some shield rigs, ditch survay scanner for some shield hardnerer or something, and u should be able to tank long enough in h-s till concord comes and helps u with average size gank attack in 0.7 system.

     

     

    That's a myth.  I agree that you should be able to tank it out until CONCORD arrives but sadly you can't - it doesn't matter what you put on your hulk, or what direction you are facing, or whether or not you hit warp as soon as you see a stranger in your belt.  In reality you can put anything you want on your hulk but you'll still be dead almost as soon as the skilled pirate drops out of warp.

  • HazelleHazelle Brampton, ONPosts: 760Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    So we both agree that for its price the tank sucks on the hulk?

    Was that really so hard to admit?

    How much tank do you think is fair?

    There are t2 combat ships that cost more that have less tank.  Can my curse have more tank too?

    I think the cap size, power grid output, and 2 extra med slots, more than make up for your marginal lack of tank vs a hulk.

    If your curse is really that vulnerable to a suicide fitted gank in high sec you are doing it wrong - very wrong - very very very wrong.

    m'right?

  • ndodgendodge ladner, BCPosts: 55Member

    you guys are noobs.

     

    Make sure your hulk is nowhere near zero on the belt.

    neut/hostile enters system? align to a safe location.

    they appear on grid? whether cloaked/warped in. you should already be aligned. warp out. believe me, your ship is worth far more than that can or cycle in your mining lasers.

     

    Yay you're safe and didn't lose your hulk. the mechanics are NOT THAT HARD.

    for the love of god watch your local and use your dscan. If you're not willing to do that, you deserve to lose your hulk.

    I play in a sandbox.

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by Hazelle
    Originally posted by mWo4life

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    It is not a problem of a hulk that ppl loose them due to gankers in h-s. Miners r just too greedy. Just ditch one mining upgrade, for damage control II, ditch some cargohold rigs for some shield rigs, ditch survay scanner for some shield hardnerer or something, and u should be able to tank long enough in h-s till concord comes and helps u with average size gank attack in 0.7 system.

     

     

    That's a myth.  I agree that you should be able to tank it out until CONCORD arrives but sadly you can't - it doesn't matter what you put on your hulk, or what direction you are facing, or whether or not you hit warp as soon as you see a stranger in your belt.  In reality you can put anything you want on your hulk but you'll still be dead almost as soon as the skilled pirate drops out of warp.

     

    I'm sorry, but that's a flat-out lie. A Damage Control II alone will give a Hulk sufficient EHP to resist a single Catalyst. A max-tanked Hulk (32k EHP) can survive a single Tornado. Gankers can't summon arbitrary numbers on demand and they don't psychically know to swap to a ship that costs 50x as much just because it's you.

    Your previous assertion that despite being aligned and ATK you will still be caught is even more nonsensical. If you are aligned at 75% speed, you will instawarp. If you get tackled, it's because you weren't paying attention. On a related note, one smart Hulk fit I have seen has involved pairs of Hulks in the same corp each fitting a 60% web and webbing each other. Moving at 75% puts them at about 33m/s, allowing them to spend long periods aligned whilst remaining within range of the rocks. You can do this and still have an MSE tank, taking you over 25k EHP.

    Smart miners are adapting by moving away from hubs, mining in quiet systems, changing their fits, evolving their tactics, in short they're playing the game, actually being involved in making some decisions and profiting by them.

    Other miners have quit and are spending more effort and emotion complaining on the forums than it has taken the smart miners to simply adapt.

    I can't really understand the thinking behind joining the second group, but people do lots of strange things, so there you go. No doubt you find the activity rewarding in your own way.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hazelle
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    So we both agree that for its price the tank sucks on the hulk?

    Was that really so hard to admit?

    How much tank do you think is fair?

    There are t2 combat ships that cost more that have less tank.  Can my curse have more tank too?

    I think the cap size, power grid output, and 2 extra med slots, more than make up for your marginal lack of tank vs a hulk.

    If your curse is really that vulnerable to a suicide fitted gank in high sec you are doing it wrong - very wrong - very very very wrong.

    m'right?

    I never said I was vulnerable to any high sec suicide ganks.  I haven't even been allowed in high sec for a couple years.  That's beside the point.

    You said you wanted more tank on a hulk because it's price to tank ratio "sucks".  Considering there are other ships where that ratio is higher, what do you think is fair?  Why shouldn't other ships get a similar buff?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ndodge

    you guys are noobs.

     

    Make sure your hulk is nowhere near zero on the belt.

    neut/hostile enters system? align to a safe location.

    they appear on grid? whether cloaked/warped in. you should already be aligned. warp out. believe me, your ship is worth far more than that can or cycle in your mining lasers.

     

    Yay you're safe and didn't lose your hulk. the mechanics are NOT THAT HARD.

    for the love of god watch your local and use your dscan. If you're not willing to do that, you deserve to lose your hulk.

    Keep in mind your audience, high sec miners.  To anyone who lives in low or null sec watching local is second nature.  Staying aligned is habit.  High sec players never develop these practices because they think they're safe.  They get very angry when somebody interferes with their AFK mining operations.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • CalfisCalfis Brooklyn, NYPosts: 352Member
    Originally posted by dave6660

    Keep in mind your audience, high sec miners.  To anyone who lives in low or null sec watching local is second nature.  Staying aligned is habit.  High sec players never develop these practices because they think they're safe.  They get very angry when somebody interferes with their false sense of security.

    Fixed that.

    image

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas New Westminster, BCPosts: 468Member
    Originally posted by Malcanis
    Originally posted by Hazelle
    Originally posted by mWo4life

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    It is not a problem of a hulk that ppl loose them due to gankers in h-s. Miners r just too greedy. Just ditch one mining upgrade, for damage control II, ditch some cargohold rigs for some shield rigs, ditch survay scanner for some shield hardnerer or something, and u should be able to tank long enough in h-s till concord comes and helps u with average size gank attack in 0.7 system.

     

     

    That's a myth.  I agree that you should be able to tank it out until CONCORD arrives but sadly you can't - it doesn't matter what you put on your hulk, or what direction you are facing, or whether or not you hit warp as soon as you see a stranger in your belt.  In reality you can put anything you want on your hulk but you'll still be dead almost as soon as the skilled pirate drops out of warp.

     

    I'm sorry, but that's a flat-out lie. A Damage Control II alone will give a Hulk sufficient EHP to resist a single Catalyst. A max-tanked Hulk (32k EHP) can survive a single Tornado. Gankers can't summon arbitrary numbers on demand and they don't psychically know to swap to a ship that costs 50x as much just because it's you.

    Your previous assertion that despite being aligned and ATK you will still be caught is even more nonsensical. If you are aligned at 75% speed, you will instawarp. If you get tackled, it's because you weren't paying attention. On a related note, one smart Hulk fit I have seen has involved pairs of Hulks in the same corp each fitting a 60% web and webbing each other. Moving at 75% puts them at about 33m/s, allowing them to spend long periods aligned whilst remaining within range of the rocks. You can do this and still have an MSE tank, taking you over 25k EHP.

    Smart miners are adapting by moving away from hubs, mining in quiet systems, changing their fits, evolving their tactics, in short they're playing the game, actually being involved in making some decisions and profiting by them.

    Other miners have quit and are spending more effort and emotion complaining on the forums than it has taken the smart miners to simply adapt.

    I can't really understand the thinking behind joining the second group, but people do lots of strange things, so there you go. No doubt you find the activity rewarding in your own way.

    That part in red...THAT IS EVE ONLINE!!! That is the player generated content! One group of players decides to do something that makes life annoying for others, the others adapt to it to make life less annoying for themselves and confound the first group. I know some people hate the fact that groups of players can create those annoying circumstances in the first place, but the problem solving aspect of adapting and countering it is what keeps a good chunk of us veterans still in the game. If you ragequit over this then guess what: Goons, and Eve Online itself, defeated you.

    And that is also why I consider those older players in Eve that stuck it out over several years some of the most badass game players and problem solvers known. Players have been killing each other in unique ways, adapting, developing more advanced tactics and teaching those tactics to others for over nine years. I learned more about tactical planning playing Eve in six months than I had in six years of playing other games previously.

    Where's the any key?

  • MurashuMurashu Ft Rucker, ALPosts: 1,394Member
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    I'm talking about beefing up the hulk to make ganks more like a pull on the old one armed bandit and less like hitting the automatic I win button and the point you make to counter my point is that you should evade the attacks altogether by picking potencial enemies out in heavy traffic high sec and do it every 10 seconds no less.

     

    You are asking CCP to change the game so that a small population of players can go back to AFK mining, I just don't see that happening. If you refuse to use tools like d-scan and local window then go find an empty highsec system (there are over 1000 highsec systems in EVE) to do your mining in.

     

    You can play EVE the way CCP intended and avoid being ganked altogether or you can continue playing the victim role, continue losing ships and whining about it on the forums. Either way, the choice is yours.

    www.agonysend.org

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hazelle
    Originally posted by Murashu
    Originally posted by Hazelle

    Another one agrees that the hulk is under tanked.

    We are on a roll.

    Actually I said nothing about the tank on a hulk. I believe it has plenty of tank to perform it's intended role.

    I'm talking about beefing up the hulk to make ganks more like a pull on the old one armed bandit and less like hitting the automatic I win button and the point you make to counter my point is that you should evade the attacks altogether by picking potencial enemies out in heavy traffic high sec and do it every 10 seconds no less.

     

     I don't think some of you really understand this guy.

     

    He doesn't WANT to worry about doing anything that involves protecting himself.  He wants CCP to beef up his ship instead of using the slots and fittings that you would need to use to keep it from getting blown up. 

    CCP gives you all the tools you need to protect yourself, they do a better job of this then any other ffa pvp game.  They do it so well in fact that someone can play this game and never lose a single ship to another person, and in fact there are people that have.  The only people that get blown up are people who are actively looking to get into a fight and people who don't take any measures to protect themselves at all.

    The Hulk has all of the slots needed to instal modules that will prevent someone from being able to suicide gank them.  This is a fact.  If you choose not to fit your ship in anticipation of this then that's your problem and not CCP's or the ships.

  • TalonsinTalonsin Posts: 1,474Member Uncommon

    Three players working together can take out any hulk regardless of the fittings/tank/preparation of the hulk pilot.  one pilot is in a new player corp and flys around in a covert ops and bookmarks the hulk in the roid field.  The other two enter the gate in destroyers and immediately warp to the hulk.  By the time the hulk pilot notices anyone new in the system and starts to warp, the destroyers are on him, warp locking him and beating him down.  The hulk pilot never knew what hit him.  A good three man team can take out any hulk in a .5 or .6 system in less than a minute from the time they enter the system.

     

    I'm not saying the hulk needs more tank.  I am saying the game has changed and 24/7 hulkaggeddon is not something that CCP intended.  The same can be said about the nano ships and the nerf they got.  Lots on accounts like to mine and if CCP starts losing money due to miners leaving the game they will do something.  Mittani should have been smart and kept it to a monthly event.  The Goon high command was raking in billions from each hulkaggeddon.  The call to go 24/7 was too greedy and it will end up causing CCP to do something. 

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Talonsin

    Three players working together can take out any hulk regardless of the fittings/tank/preparation of the hulk pilot.  one pilot is in a new player corp and flys around in a covert ops and bookmarks the hulk in the roid field.  The other two enter the gate in destroyers and immediately warp to the hulk.  By the time the hulk pilot notices anyone new in the system and starts to warp, the destroyers are on him, warp locking him and beating him down.  The hulk pilot never knew what hit him.  A good three man team can take out any hulk in a .5 or .6 system in less than a minute from the time they enter the system.

     

    I'm not saying the hulk needs more tank.  I am saying the game has changed and 24/7 hulkaggeddon is not something that CCP intended.  The same can be said about the nano ships and the nerf they got.  Lots on accounts like to mine and if CCP starts losing money due to miners leaving the game they will do something.  Mittani should have been smart and kept it to a monthly event.  The Goon high command was raking in billions from each hulkaggeddon.  The call to go 24/7 was too greedy and it will end up causing CCP to do something. 

    Wrong.  Stay aligned and you could wait for them to be on short range d-scan and still make it out in plenty of time.  But the vast majority of miners won't do that.  They sit completely still in the middle of the rocks and pay no attention to local.  Finally when a bunch of destroyers land they try to start aligning only to realize that they're bouncing off the rocks and can't build up any speed.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • WycliffeWycliffe West Amwell, NJPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Talonsin

    Three players working together can take out any hulk regardless of the fittings/tank/preparation of the hulk pilot.  one pilot is in a new player corp and flys around in a covert ops and bookmarks the hulk in the roid field.  The other two enter the gate in destroyers and immediately warp to the hulk.  By the time the hulk pilot notices anyone new in the system and starts to warp, the destroyers are on him, warp locking him and beating him down.  The hulk pilot never knew what hit him.  A good three man team can take out any hulk in a .5 or .6 system in less than a minute from the time they enter the system.

     

    I'm not saying the hulk needs more tank.  I am saying the game has changed and 24/7 hulkaggeddon is not something that CCP intended.  The same can be said about the nano ships and the nerf they got.  Lots on accounts like to mine and if CCP starts losing money due to miners leaving the game they will do something.  Mittani should have been smart and kept it to a monthly event.  The Goon high command was raking in billions from each hulkaggeddon.  The call to go 24/7 was too greedy and it will end up causing CCP to do something. 

    So things instantly warp now?

     

    Even if 3 destroyers do get the drop on a hulk you're completely f**king wrong about no fittings/tank/preparation can survive. I guess no one in this forum mines with orca bonuses, which is pretty much par for the course seeing as these complaints are largely indicative of people just 'doing it wrong'.

     

     

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