No one wants to share loot with some random stranger. I stipulate that this is the #1 reason why people solo MMOs. The other guy will always loot the BOP class specific item that you both want and need, and that he can not use or trade...
1) Damn right I don't want to share loot. No-one in their right mind would.
2) No, I would not group in the situation you describe, mostly due to point No. 1 but also because I'm busy killing mobs and doing quests/missions, so I have no time to waste on what passes for Chat these days. Also worth considering is that content in MMOs is so easy these days that you really don't need anyone else.
This is not to say I don't socialise online - I do... but it's done via voice chat with RL friends and family who are online doing whatever floats their boat. Voice chat with ACTUAL friends is vastly superior to text chatting to some random stranger I have never seen before and will never see again.
This very well may be my first post despite using this site for years. I've played MMOs for the better part of a decade and I respectfully disagree with the above-highlighted statements.
Truth is, MMOs today seem to cater to a very different audience than the MMO gamers of old. I hate to be the guy who talked about "back in the day" but bear with me, because I'd like to make a point you may or may not appreciate...
My first MMO was FFXI upon launch. The game was an absolute grindfest. I didn't know any better. The first 10-18 levels was pretty easy to solo, but you quickly learned that it was more efficient to group up and kill mobs nonstop for hours on end. The concept of killing the same group of 18 lizards (one at a time, assuming our puller didn't link) each on a five minute respawn timer for a few hours straight was considered a fun night of partying. No it wasn't the mindless squashing of the same mob repeatedly that would make the night memorable. Eventually people would start talking, whether it was game or irl-related. Before long, the party was social enough to where the activity at hand didn't seem as much of a grind and acquaintences were well enough met to the point where you might even add someone to your "Friend's List" for future grouping.
The endgame scene was not solo-friendly, and lower end content and/or farming to participate in lower-end content could be solo'ed in theory, but again, the JPRG concept essentially designed the game to focus on grouping to accomplish your end goal.
It is entirely possible that due to the "values" I was raised with... from a gaming standpoint, mind you... That I've always associated tackling dungeons, world bosses, etc, as a means of having fun, and not necessarily concern myself with the drops/loot. I know I'm not the only person that has felt this way..
FFXI used to have world bosses that would spawn 3+ days after it's last Time of Death, and it would be camped heavily. The spawn times could vary and sometimes the boss would take several days before it would decide to show up again. I cannot count the sheer amount of hours, my linkshell (FFXI's version of Guild) mates and myself have spent camping these bosses, including being up at weird hours of the night just to help someone else get that drop that they've wanted. We've camped world bosses with drop rates of less than 5% for some pieces of equipment and yet most of the members of our group didn't opt out of helping because there wasn't anything in it for them.
We did it for the challenge, the bragging rights (outclaiming against other groups/linkshells), and just because we were competitive and enjoyed screwing around (running congo lines around the camp, just to piss others off while we laugh our asses off in vent)... all for the sake of having fun while we pass the time.
In the end, the loot itself wasn't really all that important. Hell, I led an endgame linkshell of 60+ active full-time members (not alts, actual warm bodies) that were from all over the world (preferred that over timezone based servers that western MMOs typically utilize). As the leader, and main tank in a lot of ocassions, I'd still pass up gear to help out newer players / aspiring tanks. I wanted that piece of equipment as well, but pixels don't mean nearly as much to me as a sense of community and thoroughly enjoying yourself. Plus, there's always next time..
With that being said, and I'm sorry for the semi-rant, I wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that all MMO gamers are self-serving individuals that only care about their own personal advancement.
I think the new breed of games, and the attitude of gamers it creates. is the culprit. Everything seems to be about instant gratification versus working together as part of a team over a long-term goal ... and when that goal is finally reached (whether you consider that beating an extremely difficult world boss or having that piece of loot drop), you drop it and move on to the next thing you 'need.'
I quit FFXI recently (sorta) when they announced a new series of expansions and level cap being raised to 99. Many will agree the Abyssea expansions ruined a perfectly well built game *minus the tedious level grind*. I tried looking into WoW..
My girlfriend played World of Warcraft, and needless to say, it was night & day comparing the attitudes of that community (and I use that term very loosely), to what I was accustomed to. I remember I ran a raid one night and was awarded some token that would upgrade a piece of equipment to the next tier of raiding gear. One of the fellows I ran with played the same class and happened to lose the roll. I didn't really know his story and ultimately ended up giving him my token, although it was strange... he kept wondering what the catch was... as if there was some hidden motivation for my deed.
Needless to say, no two people will have the same exact experience playing MMOs, but I do find that developers play a significant role in determining player behavior, from a macro standpoint, and I do wonder if I would be a different type of MMO gamer / guildmate / whatever you wanna label it, if WoW (it wasn't out at the time I started playing but you get my point) or something else was my very first MMO.
Dear god, sorry for the rant / wall of text.
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TLDR; Disagree
ps If anyone bothered to read that heinous wall of text and willing to provide a decent recommendation (mind you, i've downloaded about 15 different F2P clients and have bought 6 different P2P MMOs and just can't seem to find that game that will capture my loyalty like XI did prior to them ruining it), I'm all ears!
The short answer is that there is not one.
I grew up on AC 1 where there was the vassal patron system that encouraged social gameplay. I also played SWG and I loved passing away time dancing in the cantinas (Dancing was an actual profession and could be leveled up just like a combat profession).
The MMOs of today are about the me me me and not about the community. Mana bars fill up instantly and there is no downtime to socialize but only the efficiency of xp per second.
I want a world to play in that does not revolve around efficiency.
One problem is that true single player games are getting harder and harder to find, and quality ones are even scarcer. Every company wants to make their games online so they can add the social component to try to keep people around and make more money off of them, so if you want to play a computer game, that's the environment that is increasingly being forced on players, whether they really want it or not. Companies are responding to this rather large group of gamers who for whatever reason would have traditionally been in a true single player game by letting them feel that they are still basically playing a single player game with multiplayer options. It's not a good thing, because neither the solo gamers or the grouping gamers really get the game they want in most cases, but that is what is happening.
At this point in my MMO gaming I pretty much just see everyone else as NPCs. You are not real people you are just there to make the game world seem more alive and to buy my crap off of the AH.
This is exactly the issue, and I'd argue that 80% might actually be a little too low and that the real number would be around 95%, simply because I can count group-oriented MMORPG on my hands.
I don't mind solo players, but an MMORPG's focus should not be on those solo players...because it's an MMORPG. His whole article is plastered with "If-s" and "Maybe-s". If you want to socialize you can, but there's no need to. If you want to group you can, but there's no need to. It's ridiculous, and definitively hasn't changed my mind that if players want to play everything solo, than they should go play Single Player RPGs. However the industry currently catters to those people, as oppose to the old industry of 10 years ago. An MMORPG should be primarily group-oriented but still give the possibility of soloing to some extent (because it's true that we don't have the best schedule in the world for gaming) and not the opposite around, in other words solo-oriented with the possibility of grouping.
The problem is simple...
If you center your game on grouping, with occasional solo content, you will force people to group to progress. And players don't like to be forced into things, specially when it doesn't fit their schedule to play the game. Nothing is worse than having to sit 30 minutes in a LFG channel before being able to continue to progress your character viably.
But if your game has soloing as a viable alternative to progress from noob to max, but also with group content, everybody can chose whatever playstyle they prefer, and even those who prefer grouping can still do the solo stuff while waiting for their group to form up.
It's easy to understand which version give the most freedom to the player, and why most developers use that model.
Another negative consequence of forced grouping I've noticed is that it breeds elitism. If people are forced to group to reach some essential goals for their character progression, they will start lack tolerance towards the "lesser" players and avoid/discriminate them, when they don't also insult them of course... we've seen that in EQ, in DAoC's leveling, in WoW's end game of course, and even in games like LOTRO which also have raid centric end games. Some of the best MMORPG communities I've been part of were in games where grouping was totally optional (UO and AC1 for instance), because people were doing the group content for fun, and therefore had a way more relaxed approach to it. As a side note, that's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to GW2.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The bottom line is simple, if there were really that many soloers, then the market would cater more to them. What we see instead, is games with end-game content centered on groups.
Another thing is the PvP, I keep hearing how most players are PvE, but every new game that comes out has PvP. We also see games that started out with no PvP, but later its added because of player demand.
Those 2 facts say one thing to me, that most gamers like group content and PvP. Its simple math, not magic.
Anybody who screams for solo end game content, is deluding themselves, becuase you will never be the focus of any game dev, not now and not ever.
The bottom line is simple, if there were really that many soloers, then the market would cater more to them. What we see instead, is games with end-game content centered on groups.
Another thing is the PvP, I keep hearing how most players are PvE, but every new game that comes out has PvP. We also see games that started out with no PvP, but later its added because of player demand.
Those 2 facts say one thing to me, that most gamers like group content and PvP. Its simple math, not magic.
Anybody who screams for solo end game content, is deluding themselves, becuase you will never be the focus of any game dev, not now and not ever.
While you are right and the end game does require a group, we seem to see mechanics comming out that allow you to play solo in group so to say. I am refering to things like GW2 events, which are group oriented, yet you're not forming a group for them in the traditional sence, it's automated, and WoW LFR, where even if you are in a raid, you are "solo". Things like these don't make the end game soloable, but they do make it solo friendly.
As for me, as long as I like a MMO, I don't care too much about this group vs solo debate.
He's a harcore player (one of those people that play alot, not ones that have crazy skill) and tends to enjoy endgame raids and organized pvp.
Me I tend to be more casual, the type of guy that likes sessions of questing/leveling , gathering/crafting, Achievement hunting, working the AH and Maybe the rare solo queue into a dungeon or pvp map for fun.
I think alot of players believe there's a right way to play a mmo. They would look at my brother with his two max level characers with full raid tier loot and high end pvp gear as a legit player.
Then look at me with my one high (but not max character) and my 10+ characters all in low and mid level range and say i should be playing Skyrim.
I think people need to realize that everyone is different. MMOs are designed to host all different types of playstyles. From the min max Endgame raider type to the alt-a-holic leveler, to the Esport pvper and even the more focused RPer.
This is what makes these games great.
I wish people didn't hate on me and my playstyle so much. I just want to enjoy my time in a game the way I want. I dont go off on a long rant about Endgame and how mindlessly repetitive and ultimately meaningless I feel that it is because I understand many enjoy that.
He's a harcore player (one of those people that play alot, not ones that have crazy skill) and tends to enjoy endgame raids and organized pvp.
Me I tend to be more casual, the type of guy that likes sessions of questing/leveling , gathering/crafting, Achievement hunting, working the AH and Maybe the rare solo queue into a dungeon or pvp map for fun.
I think alot of players believe there's a right way to play a mmo. They would look at my brother with his two max level characers with full raid tier loot and high end pvp gear as a legit player.
Then look at me with my one high (but not max character) and my 10+ characters all in low and mid level range and say i should be playing Skyrim.
I think people need to realize that everyone is different. MMOs are designed to host all different types of playstyles. From the min max Endgame raider type to the alt-a-holic leveler, to the Esport pvper and even the more focused RPer.
This is what makes these games great.
I wish people didn't hate on me and my playstyle so much. I just want to enjoy my time in a game the way I want. I dont go off on a long rant about Endgame and how mindlessly repetitive and ultimately meaningless I feel that it is because I understand many enjoy that.
There is one type of 'social' MMO player I try to avoid. They say things like
'MMO's are for social activities, they should make the game more social dependent'. This is someone who is into control more than social and/or he cant find any friends to play with so he wants the game mechanics to force it on him.
Not saying all leaders are like this, some leaders have good social skills and are not on a power trip but its also not uncommon for power trippers to become leaders and they usually make bad ones after awhile.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
the point of the article is to show that there are more players who like to do more things then just raid and party dungeons. There are companies that know this (Anet) and are writing their games to compensate for the entire market instead of just a tiny pidgeonhole. WoW is an anomoly because people in order to stay with their friends, often put up with things they wouldn't normally do. (like raid, i'm not a raider but i did it because there was seriously nothing else to do in WoW it being a lobby style mmo and all)
Archeage is another good example of trying to give people more things to do with their time in games then just hanging out in town waiting on a group to form because you HAVE to have a group for something AGAIN.
And NO being in a group end game or a raid end game does not equal being social, that's an illusion. Being social is doing RP or talking with your friends whether you are together or not.
A great game has to have a balance for all players despite people's screaming "NO" on these forums about a game having anything other then one type fo gameplay.
I am your worst case scenario : a mostly solo player who is 99.9% PvE oriented. So what am I doing in an MMO?
From my point of view, I had no choice. I find very few single player games coming out that have the content and size of large MMOs. From playing all single player games my first MMO devotion was GW. I played GW and all expansions for years. I joined a couple of guilds, but always had the problem that I didn't play at the time they did. Also, since I don't PvP, I joined them a few times for group runs into specific areas but most if my level up I did by myself.
After playing online enough I got used to joining up. I love to help lower players leveling up, and most of the group work I do is to help others achieve some goal or quest. Today I am playing SW:TOR while I wait for GW2. I still do the same, join in for bosses and flashpoints, but 99% of the time play by myself.
Now, as solo player, I do not mind focus on PvP and social play. I support it and try my best to join in when I can. But it is hard to find groups (a known issue in TOR) and even when you do you might get juvenile/unrully players and it becomes quite a hassle sometimes. My best experiences are again helping lower level chars with particular needs.
The only thing that "bothers" me is when the quest progression gets stopped due to a group requirement. That blocks my solo play and in some areas (specially late in the life cycle of a game) it might be impossible to get a group going and thus you can't progress. I hate that and I find it unfair to the solo player. I do believe there are ways to encourage group play without forcing it and making the solo player unwelcome.
I support all games. If somebody came out with a group only or PvP only game, hey, more power to those who like that. What is scary is to find NO options for me because the in thing is social games. That is sad. Note to social players : we solo players don't demand anything, just let me play the game in some areas by myself. You can have your warzones, flashpoints, raids, etc. And if I do get into it a bit and feel welcome, hey, great for all of us.
Well said. That's how I am as a gamer too. I can not find the enjoyment in a single player game the way I do in MMORPGs. I think it's the size, atmosphere and feeling of being in another "world" and in order for that "world" to feel like the Real one it needs other Real People not just NPCs.
I too never have an issue with a game adding raids or extreme group options because I know I may one day want to try that out. Now, I don't go all hardcore in those areas, as it's just frustrating and unfun to have to wait on other people but the option should always be there. Why hardcore groupers have an issue with solo players or content....is just strange and I have to wonder where their unfounded fear is coming from.
I also look at it like this, from a sports analogy perspective. I love American Football and Baseball. Love the team aspect, the strategy, the stats etc. BUT, I also love to play golf which is mostly a solo game. No team tactics but it does have strategy, progression and challenge but on an individual level. Each of the sports I mentioned offer something different and what is great about MMOs, is that it combines all of those types into one location making them big, awesome and fun.
The bottom line is simple, if there were really that many soloers, then the market would cater more to them. What we see instead, is games with end-game content centered on groups.
Another thing is the PvP, I keep hearing how most players are PvE, but every new game that comes out has PvP. We also see games that started out with no PvP, but later its added because of player demand.
Those 2 facts say one thing to me, that most gamers like group content and PvP. Its simple math, not magic.
Anybody who screams for solo end game content, is deluding themselves, becuase you will never be the focus of any game dev, not now and not ever.
While you are right and the end game does require a group, we seem to see mechanics comming out that allow you to play solo in group so to say. I am refering to things like GW2 events, which are group oriented, yet you're not forming a group for them in the traditional sence, it's automated, and WoW LFR, where even if you are in a raid, you are "solo". Things like these don't make the end game soloable, but they do make it solo friendly.
As for me, as long as I like a MMO, I don't care too much about this group vs solo debate.
Glad you brought up GW2 as it will be the type of game to settle, at least IMO, this whole solo player vs. group player issue. It allows solo players to still be solo and yet group players to group and it solves the "selfish looter" issue as well by giving everyone their own loot table on every kill. Hard to see how a group only player can complain about this game unless they are just a pure Raider, and in that case shouldn't be playing GW2. Plenty of other "old" games out their to tickle that particular niche playstyle.
people that complain about soloers are the CoD/Halo FPS QQ crowd, so many games out there that cater to these crowd, yet they continue to cry and cry and cry for eterniityyyyyyy:
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
That's very true, however, the less social ones are still solo'ers. I don't consider raids, open world mob invasion or pvp to be anymore "group content" than being able to gather material and building a house with other player. In fact, i consider city events, theatre plays, player made event like bands using instruments to be what true social content is in mmorpg.
The irony lies in the fact that most casual solo players SEEM (don't have facts, just using all other themeparks has "proof") to want is to do their quests, dungeons, stories, pvp, carfting all by themsleves. They don't want to participate in minigame activities with others, watch a play put on by rp'ers, nothing.
You're completly right about that being social in mmos is not being forced to group to do a quest, but, unless it involves object reaching, reward giving, combat oriented elements, it's not content to do. It's most solo'ers who believe that bashing mobs is group, social content, so your point goes nowhere.
people that complain about soloers are the CoD/Halo FPS QQ crowd, so many games out there that cater to these crowd, yet they continue to cry and cry and cry for eterniityyyyyyy:
Cool story bro. So, those who like to solo aren't into FPS, action style games? Wonder why then that unless what you're doing in-game is combat oriented, it's considered content then.
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
That's very true, however, the less social ones are still solo'ers. I don't consider raids, open world mob invasion or pvp to be anymore "group content" than being able to gather material and building a house with other player. In fact, i consider city events, theatre plays, player made event like bands using instruments to be what true social content is in mmorpg.
The irony lies in the fact that most casual solo players SEEM (don't have facts, just using all other themeparks has "proof") to want is to do their quests, dungeons, stories, pvp, carfting all by themsleves. They don't want to participate in minigame activities with others, watch a play put on by rp'ers, nothing.
You're completly right about that being social in mmos is not being forced to group to do a quest, but, unless it involves object reaching, reward giving, combat oriented elements, it's not content to do. It's most solo'ers who believe that bashing mobs is group, social content, so your point goes nowhere.
As I said earlier, some of the best MMORPG communities I've had the honor to be part of were UO and AC1, and both games don't have forced grouping. Two games where the solo play style was 100% supported, yet which has way better communities that today's theme parks.
What makes people antisocial is the "end game loot grind" oriented model. Even among raiders, the supposed "social" people, it's all about who is going to get that next piece of loot, greed is king. I know about it, I did some more or less hardcore raiding notably in WoW.
So on topic, pretending that forcing people to group to bash mobs makes better communities, and gathers more sociable players, is nonsense.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
See that guy over there? Yah, that one. With the sword. He likes to group constantly. Of course, he won't shut up about how great he is during the entire run, spamming dps meters on critters, but wow does he like to group up. It's almost like he needs the approval of others...
exactly and this is why i solo in MMORPGs or just play with my guild and honestly look at anyone outside my guild as just another NPC. this is why usually the first thing i do in a new MMORPG is turn off every type of chat i can except /tells or /whispers and guild chat.
when everyone and their mother think they are such a better player than the next person and is more than likely willing to tell you how bad you as a player and a person suck because you put a point into X spec instead of Y spec and you put out 4000dps instead of 4100dps, oh and you should probably kill yourself right now.
and every player out there is only grouping to get the next piece of loot and not to make friends anyway, how many times have you grouped and no one said anything ... unless you die of course then everyone has something to say and usually its "you suck at your class i have a max level alt of your class and i put out much more dps than you do and you should probably kill yourself now".
so no thanks I will not group with you random MMORPG "NPC" i will stick to myself or my little guild.
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
a few things.
1. solo games usually dont have the mass amount of content that an MMO does. This is the reason why solo players play MMOs.
2. there are various types of personalities that like to contrubute to a collective. Some like to do their contrabution in solitude, few MMO games give the solo player something to do that also helps the clan but some do and its a good mechanic.
3. If you are already grouped going out for the fun kill of the day does it matter if you passed a guy who is solo? OR is it that you cant find anyone to play with and you want to force other people to play with you?
4. I do however agree that there should be advantages to grouping and yes many MMO's leave people asking 'why would I group? its actually more of a hassle' and I dont agree with that. There should be OPTIONS where co-op play makes real sense with each person having something different to add to the battle or goal.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I like being able to group and solo in my games. Given the choice poeple do however follow the path of least resistance to attaining their goal. Case in point as soon as blizzard realesed that 10 mans and 25 mans would drop the same loot just different quantities 25 mans on most servers became non existant. Why try to organize and run a bigger raid when the same thing can be attained with less effort and people. The same mentality works for solo play. If all items in the game were reachable solo or grouping you would see the majority just go solo thus making it harder for groups to be formed.
I am a believer in that you need to have content for all types of players. However you do have to have a target demographic of players you are looking to tailor to. If you want to make a solo player game that allows grouping great. Or if you want to have a group game that also has solo content great. But you cant have both. For instance again that is one reason blizzard lowered the raid sizes to 25 from 40 then to 10. They wanted more people to see the art work, the game they put alot of work into. So they made a path of lesser resistance so that more people would be able to see the content. I guarantee if there allowed 5 man groups in the raid zones you would see 10 mans drop down even more. If there is not some sort of greater reward,accomplishment for grouping or raiding then the majority whether they will admit it or not will end up soloing. Which brings less player to player interaction and less community.
Say what you will about what was wrong with EQ but one thing it got spot on was the need to rely on your friends. No game since EQ has had the same community that it had. Long before the days of name changes and server transfers if you became known as ther server Dbag you would not be able to get groups. If you became known for anything negative like stealing loot or wrecking groups the game became even harder for you. In primarily solo games those type of factors dont really have any weight.
So basically have content for all types of players but you do have to specific demographic in mind. You cant cater to all and expect everyone to be happy. Pick your target audience and go with it. Todays companies choose to go for the more solo or casual minded gamers. Is that wrong? In some peoples eyes yes and others no.
Originally posted by ThorbrandMMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
So you need other people to be forced in your playstyle to be happy? This is a 100% recipe for a catastrophic community... a bit like forcing people enjoying a cool Pub with rock music to enter a noisy night club with techno music and pretend to have fun.
And if you pretend socializing in a MMORPG means grouping with others to bash mobs, then I will only tell you not to restrict what is possible to the limits of your own imagination... personally, my best "social" MMO experiences, from which I even got a couple of real life friends, don't come from bashing mobs in a dungeon with random people just because I had to. Actually, those mob bashing experiences are among the less "social" interactions you can have in such a game, the people barely talk to each others and are only there for the goal and the loot, and many are also elitistic pricks to make it even worse.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Love this article, awesome points. It gives the freedom to do both if you want, and generally even in the lobby games there are more options then in solo only titles which tend to be more static. Especially when it comes to updates with improvements, mmo's tend to put more of those out.
Comments
The short answer is that there is not one.
I grew up on AC 1 where there was the vassal patron system that encouraged social gameplay. I also played SWG and I loved passing away time dancing in the cantinas (Dancing was an actual profession and could be leveled up just like a combat profession).
The MMOs of today are about the me me me and not about the community. Mana bars fill up instantly and there is no downtime to socialize but only the efficiency of xp per second.
I want a world to play in that does not revolve around efficiency.
One problem is that true single player games are getting harder and harder to find, and quality ones are even scarcer. Every company wants to make their games online so they can add the social component to try to keep people around and make more money off of them, so if you want to play a computer game, that's the environment that is increasingly being forced on players, whether they really want it or not. Companies are responding to this rather large group of gamers who for whatever reason would have traditionally been in a true single player game by letting them feel that they are still basically playing a single player game with multiplayer options. It's not a good thing, because neither the solo gamers or the grouping gamers really get the game they want in most cases, but that is what is happening.
At this point in my MMO gaming I pretty much just see everyone else as NPCs. You are not real people you are just there to make the game world seem more alive and to buy my crap off of the AH.
The problem is simple...
If you center your game on grouping, with occasional solo content, you will force people to group to progress. And players don't like to be forced into things, specially when it doesn't fit their schedule to play the game. Nothing is worse than having to sit 30 minutes in a LFG channel before being able to continue to progress your character viably.
But if your game has soloing as a viable alternative to progress from noob to max, but also with group content, everybody can chose whatever playstyle they prefer, and even those who prefer grouping can still do the solo stuff while waiting for their group to form up.
It's easy to understand which version give the most freedom to the player, and why most developers use that model.
Another negative consequence of forced grouping I've noticed is that it breeds elitism. If people are forced to group to reach some essential goals for their character progression, they will start lack tolerance towards the "lesser" players and avoid/discriminate them, when they don't also insult them of course... we've seen that in EQ, in DAoC's leveling, in WoW's end game of course, and even in games like LOTRO which also have raid centric end games. Some of the best MMORPG communities I've been part of were in games where grouping was totally optional (UO and AC1 for instance), because people were doing the group content for fun, and therefore had a way more relaxed approach to it. As a side note, that's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to GW2.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I knew this thread would turn out this way...
The bottom line is simple, if there were really that many soloers, then the market would cater more to them. What we see instead, is games with end-game content centered on groups.
Another thing is the PvP, I keep hearing how most players are PvE, but every new game that comes out has PvP. We also see games that started out with no PvP, but later its added because of player demand.
Those 2 facts say one thing to me, that most gamers like group content and PvP. Its simple math, not magic.
Anybody who screams for solo end game content, is deluding themselves, becuase you will never be the focus of any game dev, not now and not ever.
As a solo player , I think the article cited hits IT out of the park.
While you are right and the end game does require a group, we seem to see mechanics comming out that allow you to play solo in group so to say. I am refering to things like GW2 events, which are group oriented, yet you're not forming a group for them in the traditional sence, it's automated, and WoW LFR, where even if you are in a raid, you are "solo". Things like these don't make the end game soloable, but they do make it solo friendly.
As for me, as long as I like a MMO, I don't care too much about this group vs solo debate.
Currently I'm playing a mmo with my brother.
He's a harcore player (one of those people that play alot, not ones that have crazy skill) and tends to enjoy endgame raids and organized pvp.
Me I tend to be more casual, the type of guy that likes sessions of questing/leveling , gathering/crafting, Achievement hunting, working the AH and Maybe the rare solo queue into a dungeon or pvp map for fun.
I think alot of players believe there's a right way to play a mmo. They would look at my brother with his two max level characers with full raid tier loot and high end pvp gear as a legit player.
Then look at me with my one high (but not max character) and my 10+ characters all in low and mid level range and say i should be playing Skyrim.
I think people need to realize that everyone is different. MMOs are designed to host all different types of playstyles. From the min max Endgame raider type to the alt-a-holic leveler, to the Esport pvper and even the more focused RPer.
This is what makes these games great.
I wish people didn't hate on me and my playstyle so much. I just want to enjoy my time in a game the way I want. I dont go off on a long rant about Endgame and how mindlessly repetitive and ultimately meaningless I feel that it is because I understand many enjoy that.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
There is one type of 'social' MMO player I try to avoid. They say things like
'MMO's are for social activities, they should make the game more social dependent'. This is someone who is into control more than social and/or he cant find any friends to play with so he wants the game mechanics to force it on him.
Not saying all leaders are like this, some leaders have good social skills and are not on a power trip but its also not uncommon for power trippers to become leaders and they usually make bad ones after awhile.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
There are still people who sadly thing that being "social" in a MMORPG means grouping up together to bash mobs. 17 years after UO's release, some still didn't get it...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
the point of the article is to show that there are more players who like to do more things then just raid and party dungeons. There are companies that know this (Anet) and are writing their games to compensate for the entire market instead of just a tiny pidgeonhole. WoW is an anomoly because people in order to stay with their friends, often put up with things they wouldn't normally do. (like raid, i'm not a raider but i did it because there was seriously nothing else to do in WoW it being a lobby style mmo and all)
Archeage is another good example of trying to give people more things to do with their time in games then just hanging out in town waiting on a group to form because you HAVE to have a group for something AGAIN.
And NO being in a group end game or a raid end game does not equal being social, that's an illusion. Being social is doing RP or talking with your friends whether you are together or not.
A great game has to have a balance for all players despite people's screaming "NO" on these forums about a game having anything other then one type fo gameplay.
Well said. That's how I am as a gamer too. I can not find the enjoyment in a single player game the way I do in MMORPGs. I think it's the size, atmosphere and feeling of being in another "world" and in order for that "world" to feel like the Real one it needs other Real People not just NPCs.
I too never have an issue with a game adding raids or extreme group options because I know I may one day want to try that out. Now, I don't go all hardcore in those areas, as it's just frustrating and unfun to have to wait on other people but the option should always be there. Why hardcore groupers have an issue with solo players or content....is just strange and I have to wonder where their unfounded fear is coming from.
I also look at it like this, from a sports analogy perspective. I love American Football and Baseball. Love the team aspect, the strategy, the stats etc. BUT, I also love to play golf which is mostly a solo game. No team tactics but it does have strategy, progression and challenge but on an individual level. Each of the sports I mentioned offer something different and what is great about MMOs, is that it combines all of those types into one location making them big, awesome and fun.
Companies have realized that there are alot of people who will pay the box price + a monthly sub + cash shop for a single player game.
Glad you brought up GW2 as it will be the type of game to settle, at least IMO, this whole solo player vs. group player issue. It allows solo players to still be solo and yet group players to group and it solves the "selfish looter" issue as well by giving everyone their own loot table on every kill. Hard to see how a group only player can complain about this game unless they are just a pure Raider, and in that case shouldn't be playing GW2. Plenty of other "old" games out their to tickle that particular niche playstyle.
people that complain about soloers are the CoD/Halo FPS QQ crowd, so many games out there that cater to these crowd, yet they continue to cry and cry and cry for eterniityyyyyyy:
MMO communities these days are so full of it
That's very true, however, the less social ones are still solo'ers. I don't consider raids, open world mob invasion or pvp to be anymore "group content" than being able to gather material and building a house with other player. In fact, i consider city events, theatre plays, player made event like bands using instruments to be what true social content is in mmorpg.
The irony lies in the fact that most casual solo players SEEM (don't have facts, just using all other themeparks has "proof") to want is to do their quests, dungeons, stories, pvp, carfting all by themsleves. They don't want to participate in minigame activities with others, watch a play put on by rp'ers, nothing.
You're completly right about that being social in mmos is not being forced to group to do a quest, but, unless it involves object reaching, reward giving, combat oriented elements, it's not content to do. It's most solo'ers who believe that bashing mobs is group, social content, so your point goes nowhere.
Cool story bro. So, those who like to solo aren't into FPS, action style games? Wonder why then that unless what you're doing in-game is combat oriented, it's considered content then.
Maybe they are just anti-socialists who like being a part of the massive community. I know, it sounds like an oxymoron doesn't it ? LOL....
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
As I said earlier, some of the best MMORPG communities I've had the honor to be part of were UO and AC1, and both games don't have forced grouping. Two games where the solo play style was 100% supported, yet which has way better communities that today's theme parks.
What makes people antisocial is the "end game loot grind" oriented model. Even among raiders, the supposed "social" people, it's all about who is going to get that next piece of loot, greed is king. I know about it, I did some more or less hardcore raiding notably in WoW.
So on topic, pretending that forcing people to group to bash mobs makes better communities, and gathers more sociable players, is nonsense.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
exactly and this is why i solo in MMORPGs or just play with my guild and honestly look at anyone outside my guild as just another NPC. this is why usually the first thing i do in a new MMORPG is turn off every type of chat i can except /tells or /whispers and guild chat.
when everyone and their mother think they are such a better player than the next person and is more than likely willing to tell you how bad you as a player and a person suck because you put a point into X spec instead of Y spec and you put out 4000dps instead of 4100dps, oh and you should probably kill yourself right now.
and every player out there is only grouping to get the next piece of loot and not to make friends anyway, how many times have you grouped and no one said anything ... unless you die of course then everyone has something to say and usually its "you suck at your class i have a max level alt of your class and i put out much more dps than you do and you should probably kill yourself now".
so no thanks I will not group with you random MMORPG "NPC" i will stick to myself or my little guild.
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
a few things.
1. solo games usually dont have the mass amount of content that an MMO does. This is the reason why solo players play MMOs.
2. there are various types of personalities that like to contrubute to a collective. Some like to do their contrabution in solitude, few MMO games give the solo player something to do that also helps the clan but some do and its a good mechanic.
3. If you are already grouped going out for the fun kill of the day does it matter if you passed a guy who is solo? OR is it that you cant find anyone to play with and you want to force other people to play with you?
4. I do however agree that there should be advantages to grouping and yes many MMO's leave people asking 'why would I group? its actually more of a hassle' and I dont agree with that. There should be OPTIONS where co-op play makes real sense with each person having something different to add to the battle or goal.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I like being able to group and solo in my games. Given the choice poeple do however follow the path of least resistance to attaining their goal. Case in point as soon as blizzard realesed that 10 mans and 25 mans would drop the same loot just different quantities 25 mans on most servers became non existant. Why try to organize and run a bigger raid when the same thing can be attained with less effort and people. The same mentality works for solo play. If all items in the game were reachable solo or grouping you would see the majority just go solo thus making it harder for groups to be formed.
I am a believer in that you need to have content for all types of players. However you do have to have a target demographic of players you are looking to tailor to. If you want to make a solo player game that allows grouping great. Or if you want to have a group game that also has solo content great. But you cant have both. For instance again that is one reason blizzard lowered the raid sizes to 25 from 40 then to 10. They wanted more people to see the art work, the game they put alot of work into. So they made a path of lesser resistance so that more people would be able to see the content. I guarantee if there allowed 5 man groups in the raid zones you would see 10 mans drop down even more. If there is not some sort of greater reward,accomplishment for grouping or raiding then the majority whether they will admit it or not will end up soloing. Which brings less player to player interaction and less community.
Say what you will about what was wrong with EQ but one thing it got spot on was the need to rely on your friends. No game since EQ has had the same community that it had. Long before the days of name changes and server transfers if you became known as ther server Dbag you would not be able to get groups. If you became known for anything negative like stealing loot or wrecking groups the game became even harder for you. In primarily solo games those type of factors dont really have any weight.
So basically have content for all types of players but you do have to specific demographic in mind. You cant cater to all and expect everyone to be happy. Pick your target audience and go with it. Todays companies choose to go for the more solo or casual minded gamers. Is that wrong? In some peoples eyes yes and others no.
So you need other people to be forced in your playstyle to be happy? This is a 100% recipe for a catastrophic community... a bit like forcing people enjoying a cool Pub with rock music to enter a noisy night club with techno music and pretend to have fun.
And if you pretend socializing in a MMORPG means grouping with others to bash mobs, then I will only tell you not to restrict what is possible to the limits of your own imagination... personally, my best "social" MMO experiences, from which I even got a couple of real life friends, don't come from bashing mobs in a dungeon with random people just because I had to. Actually, those mob bashing experiences are among the less "social" interactions you can have in such a game, the people barely talk to each others and are only there for the goal and the loot, and many are also elitistic pricks to make it even worse.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Yeah, pretty cool.
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