Let's just summarise the whole (imo silly) discussion going on in this thread:
- levels are a form of progression => time spent on the game gaining xp = level gain = ability/skillpoint and/or gear increase
- all levelless MMO's, even the ones like EVE, use a form of progression => time spent on the game = ability/skillpoint and/or 'gear' increase
You missed the part i added in yellow, but i agree with you. The two can effectively be the same, except the latter doesn't have a set overall number (level) to sum up your progression total.
Not sure about that. Can you redo it and highlight in red. That might make all the difference...
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Originally posted by BadSpock 7x GM - UO250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWGlevel 60 - WoWAll the same in the end. Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression
Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I could care less if the game is designed with traditional levels or some type of skill progression system the end result tends to be the same. the only difference between a game like SWg and level based games was playing SWG was like you stayed a level one character for like months untl you got your advanced class.
250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG
level 60 - WoW
All the same in the end.
Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression
Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.
This is a flasehood I see echoed far too often on this site. SWG was known as one of the best skill based games around at one time and I assure you that the amount of skill points you had certainly did dictate where you were able to go and what you were able to do.
I assure you walking off a ship with a good blaster and a few points wouldn't have you killing rancors any quicker than alot of the level based games that you seem to think playh so differently.
Levels seem to be a far more simplisitc way of gating content but make no mistake every game out there does it unless you can tell us of some game where you can fight and beat the best baddies around without reaching a certain skill level I'm going to have to call that assertion a myth.
I wanted to like this game, as i wanted to like TOR. I won't pay $15/month for a cooperative puzzle game, aka TSW. I also wont pay $15 for a single-player rpg; aka TOR. Most are wiser than that. I can play ARMA DayZ in a persistent world and have more massively-multiplayer fun, since this market has redefined massively-multiplayer as a 4-person instanced group.
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.
Even in EVE you are restricted in what you're able to use. It depends on the skills you trained. You can't use Cruisers from the first second you login, you can't use T2(+) ship systems, you can't even use all T1 systems because for the best version you need the skill for it on level 4. Also you have to farm standing for your faction to be able to do level 2(+) missions, you can't go mining everywhere because the rats would kick your ass as a new player, etc. pp.. Most, if not all, of the arguments on TSW having levels can be used on EVE also and should have the same outcome. I'm wondering why it doesn't.
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns. Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build. Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place. One build can handle all of it.
And that is the problem. You state it like it were fact, but you are just making random speculation based on nothing. The devs have said that at higher levels, bosses will require specific abilities to take them down. If you narrowly specialize, you will not have the skills needed to defeat them. They are doing that to specifically counter what you suggest.
OK I stand corrected, All bosses could be done with a holy trinity setup in every game, and with 10 man raiding you get two holy trinity's so can have bosses stack anti healing and swap tanks. There is one exception and if you state it Devs said, "higher level bosses require specific abilities" to kill.
WoW "required" tranquil shot from hunters to take down raid bosses, it was a gimmick and pretty poor programming when you require some useless ability to kill something. Tranquil shot nulled enrage from beast NPCs only so maybe 3 raid bosses required it and it was a pretty poor excuse to urge raids to bring hunters. So yay, instead of tuned and hard instances and raiding we get a gimmick?
based on all popular MMOs with PvE and all single player RPGs that let you play a team which most do, I use holy trinity to kill everything even though in single player RPG's I can use any combo and swap at any time, I play tons of JRPGs and there are tons of bosses, final fantasy series for example.
Isn't the point of this thread about how you need to level up weapon skills to get better gear to advance to the next area?
Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?
It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.
Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game? If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.
because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate
if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.
it doesnt matter...
thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes. Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.
On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content. its another argument that doesnt matter.
how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.
And this makes me say that even EVE has levels. Can you just roll a new character and hop in a Titan? Never mind that, can you even hop into a destroyer?
You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.
Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.
Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.
The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.
For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.
Originally posted by ShakyMo If you count filling out the skill wheel completely, you need to "level" 7906 times.
To max out in raw power - 2 weapeons to the full, takes 1526 "levels" less than 20% into the game.
So 80% of the "leveling" is horizontal and purely about making your character more diverse
The SP play a role in that though and you still get them while you unlock the rest of the wheel? Not trying to force any NDA breaks, just wondering how soon/late SP caps, which is the basis of customizing your play style (your preferred abilities in the wheel).
OK I stand corrected, All bosses could be done with a holy trinity setup in every game, and with 10 man raiding you get two holy trinity's so can have bosses stack anti healing and swap tanks. There is one exception and if you state it Devs said, "higher level bosses require specific abilities" to kill.
WoW "required" tranquil shot from hunters to take down raid bosses, it was a gimmick and pretty poor programming when you require some useless ability to kill something. Tranquil shot nulled enrage from beast NPCs only so maybe 3 raid bosses required it and it was a pretty poor excuse to urge raids to bring hunters. So yay, instead of tuned and hard instances and raiding we get a gimmick?
based on all popular MMOs with PvE and all single player RPGs that let you play a team which most do, I use holy trinity to kill everything even though in single player RPG's I can use any combo and swap at any time, I play tons of JRPGs and there are tons of bosses, final fantasy series for example.
Isn't the point of this thread about how you need to level up weapon skills to get better gear to advance to the next area?
No. The OP was about how they never wanted to play another game with normal leveling, after having played with TSW's system. It was you that keeps trying to change the focus, to how leveling weapon skills is the exact same thing. Of course, by your reasoning, any game that allows you to increase skills, and improve your character, including sanbox games like EVE, also have leveling. In that respect, there is leveling, but there are no levels. You can say that you could equate your weapons progression to skill levels, but as I pointed out earlier, two players with the exact same amount of experience earned, coul look very different. If you focused on 2 weapons the whole time, you would be stronger with those weapons, while the other person may have skills in all the weapon types, and not be particularly strong with any of them.
I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to convince people that that this system is the same as every other leveling system. It clearly isn't, and you "theory" is nothing but pure speculation with no basis in fact. It was also ridiculous to bring up that WoW situation and imply that it is the same thing. Again, more fabrication. Apparently you have an agenda that you plan to stick to.
With this system, do you really thing that the devs did not consider players doing what you suggested? They did. And they plan to counter it by requiring flexibility in players builds, for various encounters. When I said higher levels, I did not mean end game. I meant higher than what most people have currently seen. That can't do that in early levels when players only have a few skills to work with, but later mobs will have that. They said that players will need flexible builds, and not just for boss mobs.
I honestly don't see how what you have done in other games is a factor in what you can do in this one. This game is different. You comments are pure speculation, yet you keep trying to state them as fact. Again, I don't understand why you are trying so hard to convince people that your speculations are truth.
Originally posted by ShakyMo If you count filling out the skill wheel completely, you need to "level" 7906 times.
To max out in raw power - 2 weapeons to the full, takes 1526 "levels" less than 20% into the game.
So 80% of the "leveling" is horizontal and purely about making your character more diverse
The SP play a role in that though and you still get them while you unlock the rest of the wheel? Not trying to force any NDA breaks, just wondering how soon/late SP caps, which is the basis of customizing your play style (your preferred abilities in the wheel).
I've seen you say this a couple times. Forgive me but I want to correct you. Skills only allow you to use better equipment. There is not much customization there. You are going to fill at least one path per weapon, and you talisman paths. There is no customization that comes from this.
You customization comes from your abilities, gear, and clothes. As far as combat it's all about your abilities. This is where you design you play style. Two guys using blood and chaos magic can be completely different while playing the same roll, having no two same spells out of the 7 active and 7 passives
Again skill points allow you next to no customization. They were desinged to be bland only for the purpose of not allowing the best gear to be gifted on day one.
It's easy logic to me, a game is leveless if everything is available to you from the start. If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels. Most games have levels, which is why I was intrigued when they stated TSW was leveless. But you dig deep enough and it's just levels done a bit different.
Likewise classes exist if there is the possibility any two people can have the same build either intentionally or unintentionally. They can pick the same skills, wear the same gear, etc etc. Just because that class isn't defined by the game doesn't mean classes don't or will not exist. They only way classes won't exist is if things are unique to each character. For example they have their own unique set of tailor made skills to select from and not a general pool.
Fair enough with TSW you neither have traditional levels nor classes. But to call it leveless when there is progression and to call it classless when multiple people can adopt the same build, is just wrong. I also accept that utilising MMO terminology you could class this game in that vain, but again to me the terminology does not fit in this instance. TSW has levels and has classes.
I've seen you say this a couple times. Forgive me but I want to correct you. Skills only allow you to use better equipment. There is not much customization there. You are going to fill at least one path per weapon, and you talisman paths. There is no customization that comes from this.
You customization comes from your abilities, gear, and clothes. As far as combat it's all about your abilities. This is where you design you play style. Two guys using blood and chaos magic can be completely different while playing the same roll, having no two same spells out of the 7 active and 7 passives
Again skill points allow you next to no customization. They were desinged to be bland only for the purpose of not allowing the best gear to be gifted on day one.
Skill points determine the efficacy of abilities in the wheel. A person with skill points invested in blood/claws will heal/shield better than somebody who has no points in either.
Your abilities aren't a form of customization, since everybody will have every ability in the game at some point. Your gear is also in the same boat, since gear can be swapped as with your skill decks.
Customization is by definition tailoring something you already possess to your needs; everybody will possess gear (as there is no restriction other than SP requirements) and skills. The way they allocate their SP will determine what they are best at compared to other people.
You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.
Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.
Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.
The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.
For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.
Btw, Funcom never said they had 600 hours of quest content. They have said something along the lines of 200 hours, or 100 hours if you skip* a lot of content (a lot is optional). At the same time there is lots of content that isn't story based:
9 dungeons with 3 difficulties
9 (?) Lairs with summonable Lair bosses (3+1?)
Region bosses (9+?)
Minigames
Persistant PvP
You also have elements that keeps the game interesting like the horizontal progression through abilities and the gear customization for the builds you create. The assorted builds you can create with this is useful for nightmare-mode dungeons and for PvP.
So, if you want to try out all the content in the game you are looking at a lot more than 200 hours, all depending on what type of player you are. It's not like in SWTOR where it really seemed the endgame was something they tacked on at the end of the story content.
*People who rush and skip content to finish the main story as fast as possible and then complain about lack of content are pretty lame in my eyes. Some might do this because they are in the game for the PvP or dungeons though.
You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.
Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.
Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.
The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.
For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.
Btw, Funcom never said they had 600 hours of quest content. They have said something along the lines of 200 hours, or 100 hours if you skip* a lot of content (a lot is optional). At the same time there is lots of content that isn't story based:
9 dungeons with 3 difficulties
9 (?) Lairs with summonable Lair bosses (3+1?)
Region bosses (9+?)
Minigames
Persistant PvP
You also have elements that keeps the game interesting like the horizontal progression through abilities and the gear customization for the builds you create. The assorted builds you can create with this is useful for nightmare-mode dungeons and for PvP.
So, if you want to try out all the content in the game you are looking at a lot more than 200 hours, all depending on what type of player you are. It's not like in SWTOR where it really seemed the endgame was something they tacked on at the end of the story content.
*People who rush and skip content to finish the main story as fast as possible and then complain about lack of content are pretty lame in my eyes. Some might do this because they are in the game for the PvP or dungeons though.
Correction, you are dead wrong. Funcom has been working on this project since 2002, it's former name was the entire world online then Cabal to TSW as we know it. Funny because in the gazet in montreal ( News Paper ) the press spoke with Funcom at their studios and claimed that the game had well over 600 hrs of quests, even boasting that TSW has more quests then WoW, and for some reason yeah I believe them because I play the beta of the game and I was in game for 50-60 hours in the Kingsmouth area and I did'nt finish every single quests, and how can you say that a number of 100-200 hours of questing when you have puzzles to solve and cluse to dig up that are literaly in several books including the bible, heck one quest took me like 2 hours to figure out LOL. I will comment on one more thing, you mention end game, funny I find the " End game " Better then WoW so seems like your just talking crap, my suggestion to you, play the game, and for the rest of you guys that are on the fence, don't listen to people like this felllow here , or even myself, try it and enjoy it or hate it whatever, but my advice does carry some weight, take it or leave it, but when I play this game is FAR from being a item grind ( Oh boy ) how many times have we heard this? Shit even in the Phantasy star series that dates back to 1989-1998 even had some sort of grind, this is'nt a korean grindfest nor is it like the grind of the good old days of Everquest, it's fun challenging and can be a complete blast for people who enjoy history, horror, drama and the supernatural, but if you are easy frustrated by puzzles and that sort of thing I would either stay clear of it or ask for help.
When I played I was absolutely restricted to certain content until I put time in raising skills. Just as in other level based MMOs. When my wife wanted to level a new skill, we had to leave the area we'd been in and go back to the low level area as her character was useless in the higher level area we'd previously been in.
If you want to argue over semantics regarding what is and isn't a level in the traditional sense, that's fine, you can have that. But pretending there is no linear development is just delusional and helps no one, certainly not future potential players who will discover within the first hour of the game that content is absolutely gated by progression, as is gear, much in the way most level based MMOs are.
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
When I played I was absolutely restricted to certain content until I put time in raising skills. Just as in other level based MMOs. When my wife wanted to level a new skill, we had to leave the area we'd been in and go back to the low level area as her character was useless in the higher level area we'd previously been in.
If you want to argue over semantics regarding what is and isn't a level in the traditional sense, that's fine, you can have that. But pretending there is no linear development is just delusional and helps no one, certainly not future potential players who will discover within the first hour of the game that content is absolutely gated by progression, as is gear, much in the way most level based MMOs are.
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
you don't seem to understand the skill system tbh, a closer approximation would probably be Eve, there are no restrictions bar skills required to use certain items, if you for instance, trained up on projectile weapons, on a cruiser, and then decided you wanted to use lasers, you would have to put in the same kind of 'training' again in order to be able to do as much as you could do prior to switching, forget levels, this is really about ability, but like Eve itself, its a hard concept for some people to grasp.
Originally posted by fallenlords If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels.
Any game with progression equals levels? I'm going to play along. So progression, and leveling are interchangeable? Funny when I look up those two words, not only are their definitions very different, they are not listed as synonyms.
It's human nature to relate new things to past experience. This is how we understand the world in general. This gives us a false impression of the world around us, but it helps us to get by.
It's easy logic to me, a game is leveless if everything is available to you from the start. If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels. Most games have levels, which is why I was intrigued when they stated TSW was leveless. But you dig deep enough and it's just levels done a bit different.
Likewise classes exist if there is the possibility any two people can have the same build either intentionally or unintentionally. They can pick the same skills, wear the same gear, etc etc. Just because that class isn't defined by the game doesn't mean classes don't or will not exist. They only way classes won't exist is if things are unique to each character. For example they have their own unique set of tailor made skills to select from and not a general pool.
Fair enough with TSW you neither have traditional levels nor classes. But to call it leveless when there is progression and to call it classless when multiple people can adopt the same build, is just wrong. I also accept that utilising MMO terminology you could class this game in that vain, but again to me the terminology does not fit in this instance. TSW has levels and has classes.
exactly the point I'm trying to argue not sure why people find this such a hard concept.
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I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
This has been stated multiple times in this thread, by myself and others.
You can say it has no levels but gear progression functions as levels.
Why is it so important to pretend something about this game that is functionally not true?
It has many positive attributes, but anyone who plays this game for more than 4-5 hours will realize that you need to level gear talents in order to equip the items which enable you to do the harder content as you progress through the game.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Comments
Not sure about that. Can you redo it and highlight in red. That might make all the difference...
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
7x GM - UO
250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG
level 60 - WoW
All the same in the end.
Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression
Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.
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I could care less if the game is designed with traditional levels or some type of skill progression system the end result tends to be the same. the only difference between a game like SWg and level based games was playing SWG was like you stayed a level one character for like months untl you got your advanced class.
Yes, yes they do.
This is a flasehood I see echoed far too often on this site. SWG was known as one of the best skill based games around at one time and I assure you that the amount of skill points you had certainly did dictate where you were able to go and what you were able to do.
I assure you walking off a ship with a good blaster and a few points wouldn't have you killing rancors any quicker than alot of the level based games that you seem to think playh so differently.
Levels seem to be a far more simplisitc way of gating content but make no mistake every game out there does it unless you can tell us of some game where you can fight and beat the best baddies around without reaching a certain skill level I'm going to have to call that assertion a myth.
I wanted to like this game, as i wanted to like TOR. I won't pay $15/month for a cooperative puzzle game, aka TSW. I also wont pay $15 for a single-player rpg; aka TOR. Most are wiser than that. I can play ARMA DayZ in a persistent world and have more massively-multiplayer fun, since this market has redefined massively-multiplayer as a 4-person instanced group.
Even in EVE you are restricted in what you're able to use. It depends on the skills you trained. You can't use Cruisers from the first second you login, you can't use T2(+) ship systems, you can't even use all T1 systems because for the best version you need the skill for it on level 4. Also you have to farm standing for your faction to be able to do level 2(+) missions, you can't go mining everywhere because the rats would kick your ass as a new player, etc. pp.. Most, if not all, of the arguments on TSW having levels can be used on EVE also and should have the same outcome. I'm wondering why it doesn't.
OK I stand corrected, All bosses could be done with a holy trinity setup in every game, and with 10 man raiding you get two holy trinity's so can have bosses stack anti healing and swap tanks. There is one exception and if you state it Devs said, "higher level bosses require specific abilities" to kill.
WoW "required" tranquil shot from hunters to take down raid bosses, it was a gimmick and pretty poor programming when you require some useless ability to kill something. Tranquil shot nulled enrage from beast NPCs only so maybe 3 raid bosses required it and it was a pretty poor excuse to urge raids to bring hunters. So yay, instead of tuned and hard instances and raiding we get a gimmick?
based on all popular MMOs with PvE and all single player RPGs that let you play a team which most do, I use holy trinity to kill everything even though in single player RPG's I can use any combo and swap at any time, I play tons of JRPGs and there are tons of bosses, final fantasy series for example.
Isn't the point of this thread about how you need to level up weapon skills to get better gear to advance to the next area?
To max out in raw power - 2 weapeons to the full, takes 1526 "levels" less than 20% into the game.
So 80% of the "leveling" is horizontal and purely about making your character more diverse
And this makes me say that even EVE has levels. Can you just roll a new character and hop in a Titan? Never mind that, can you even hop into a destroyer?
Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.
Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.
The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.
For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.
The SP play a role in that though and you still get them while you unlock the rest of the wheel? Not trying to force any NDA breaks, just wondering how soon/late SP caps, which is the basis of customizing your play style (your preferred abilities in the wheel).
No. The OP was about how they never wanted to play another game with normal leveling, after having played with TSW's system. It was you that keeps trying to change the focus, to how leveling weapon skills is the exact same thing. Of course, by your reasoning, any game that allows you to increase skills, and improve your character, including sanbox games like EVE, also have leveling. In that respect, there is leveling, but there are no levels. You can say that you could equate your weapons progression to skill levels, but as I pointed out earlier, two players with the exact same amount of experience earned, coul look very different. If you focused on 2 weapons the whole time, you would be stronger with those weapons, while the other person may have skills in all the weapon types, and not be particularly strong with any of them.
I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to convince people that that this system is the same as every other leveling system. It clearly isn't, and you "theory" is nothing but pure speculation with no basis in fact. It was also ridiculous to bring up that WoW situation and imply that it is the same thing. Again, more fabrication. Apparently you have an agenda that you plan to stick to.
With this system, do you really thing that the devs did not consider players doing what you suggested? They did. And they plan to counter it by requiring flexibility in players builds, for various encounters. When I said higher levels, I did not mean end game. I meant higher than what most people have currently seen. That can't do that in early levels when players only have a few skills to work with, but later mobs will have that. They said that players will need flexible builds, and not just for boss mobs.
I honestly don't see how what you have done in other games is a factor in what you can do in this one. This game is different. You comments are pure speculation, yet you keep trying to state them as fact. Again, I don't understand why you are trying so hard to convince people that your speculations are truth.
I've seen you say this a couple times. Forgive me but I want to correct you. Skills only allow you to use better equipment. There is not much customization there. You are going to fill at least one path per weapon, and you talisman paths. There is no customization that comes from this.
You customization comes from your abilities, gear, and clothes. As far as combat it's all about your abilities. This is where you design you play style. Two guys using blood and chaos magic can be completely different while playing the same roll, having no two same spells out of the 7 active and 7 passives
Again skill points allow you next to no customization. They were desinged to be bland only for the purpose of not allowing the best gear to be gifted on day one.
It's easy logic to me, a game is leveless if everything is available to you from the start. If there is any progression involved either via xp, money, gear or anything that involves 'unlocking' any sort of attribute of the game. Then the game has levels. Most games have levels, which is why I was intrigued when they stated TSW was leveless. But you dig deep enough and it's just levels done a bit different.
Likewise classes exist if there is the possibility any two people can have the same build either intentionally or unintentionally. They can pick the same skills, wear the same gear, etc etc. Just because that class isn't defined by the game doesn't mean classes don't or will not exist. They only way classes won't exist is if things are unique to each character. For example they have their own unique set of tailor made skills to select from and not a general pool.
Fair enough with TSW you neither have traditional levels nor classes. But to call it leveless when there is progression and to call it classless when multiple people can adopt the same build, is just wrong. I also accept that utilising MMO terminology you could class this game in that vain, but again to me the terminology does not fit in this instance. TSW has levels and has classes.
Skill points determine the efficacy of abilities in the wheel. A person with skill points invested in blood/claws will heal/shield better than somebody who has no points in either.
Your abilities aren't a form of customization, since everybody will have every ability in the game at some point. Your gear is also in the same boat, since gear can be swapped as with your skill decks.
Customization is by definition tailoring something you already possess to your needs; everybody will possess gear (as there is no restriction other than SP requirements) and skills. The way they allocate their SP will determine what they are best at compared to other people.
Btw, Funcom never said they had 600 hours of quest content. They have said something along the lines of 200 hours, or 100 hours if you skip* a lot of content (a lot is optional). At the same time there is lots of content that isn't story based:
Correction, you are dead wrong. Funcom has been working on this project since 2002, it's former name was the entire world online then Cabal to TSW as we know it. Funny because in the gazet in montreal ( News Paper ) the press spoke with Funcom at their studios and claimed that the game had well over 600 hrs of quests, even boasting that TSW has more quests then WoW, and for some reason yeah I believe them because I play the beta of the game and I was in game for 50-60 hours in the Kingsmouth area and I did'nt finish every single quests, and how can you say that a number of 100-200 hours of questing when you have puzzles to solve and cluse to dig up that are literaly in several books including the bible, heck one quest took me like 2 hours to figure out LOL. I will comment on one more thing, you mention end game, funny I find the " End game " Better then WoW so seems like your just talking crap, my suggestion to you, play the game, and for the rest of you guys that are on the fence, don't listen to people like this felllow here , or even myself, try it and enjoy it or hate it whatever, but my advice does carry some weight, take it or leave it, but when I play this game is FAR from being a item grind ( Oh boy ) how many times have we heard this? Shit even in the Phantasy star series that dates back to 1989-1998 even had some sort of grind, this is'nt a korean grindfest nor is it like the grind of the good old days of Everquest, it's fun challenging and can be a complete blast for people who enjoy history, horror, drama and the supernatural, but if you are easy frustrated by puzzles and that sort of thing I would either stay clear of it or ask for help.
My two cents
When I played I was absolutely restricted to certain content until I put time in raising skills. Just as in other level based MMOs. When my wife wanted to level a new skill, we had to leave the area we'd been in and go back to the low level area as her character was useless in the higher level area we'd previously been in.
If you want to argue over semantics regarding what is and isn't a level in the traditional sense, that's fine, you can have that. But pretending there is no linear development is just delusional and helps no one, certainly not future potential players who will discover within the first hour of the game that content is absolutely gated by progression, as is gear, much in the way most level based MMOs are.
I doubt they'll care if you call it levels, skill levels or a quantized power approximation, there's an undeniable progression that gates content that's not as far removed from level based games as some of you would have them believe. In practice it might as well have been traditional levels as the functionality in game was very similar.
I can't walk in to higher level areas in my first 10 minutes in game and expect to be useful or have an enjoyable experience until I level up my skills. I can't equip certain gear, as it's also level restricted, until I've leveled up skills. Paint it in a pretty light as much as you like, but the second anyone comes in contact with the actual mechanics of the game, your very misleading version of it dissipates.
you don't seem to understand the skill system tbh, a closer approximation would probably be Eve, there are no restrictions bar skills required to use certain items, if you for instance, trained up on projectile weapons, on a cruiser, and then decided you wanted to use lasers, you would have to put in the same kind of 'training' again in order to be able to do as much as you could do prior to switching, forget levels, this is really about ability, but like Eve itself, its a hard concept for some people to grasp.
Any game with progression equals levels? I'm going to play along. So progression, and leveling are interchangeable? Funny when I look up those two words, not only are their definitions very different, they are not listed as synonyms.
It's human nature to relate new things to past experience. This is how we understand the world in general. This gives us a false impression of the world around us, but it helps us to get by.
Levels (character based as seen in many MMO's, bc that's what most ppl are referring to) and progression are not equally interchangeable.
(character based) level usage is an example of a progression system.
'gear' or skill point progression (TSW, EVE, etc) is another example of a progression system.
That doesn't make skill points/gear progression = levels
It's more like this:
John is an American.
Mary is also an American.
Mary is not John though.
Or, a blade is an example of a weapon.
A gun is another example of a weapon.
A blade is however not a gun - but both are weapons.
Cheers
exactly the point I'm trying to argue not sure why people find this such a hard concept.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
This has been stated multiple times in this thread, by myself and others.
You can say it has no levels but gear progression functions as levels.
Why is it so important to pretend something about this game that is functionally not true?
It has many positive attributes, but anyone who plays this game for more than 4-5 hours will realize that you need to level gear talents in order to equip the items which enable you to do the harder content as you progress through the game.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.