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Originally posted by terrant
AhA! I finally understand the disconnect. A game that has levels is not the same as a game that is level-based.
Level-based means that a character's ability to play and succeed in against the game's challenges correlates directly to your level. TSW is not level-based.
Meanwhile, a game with levels just has tiers of progression that mark your experience as a character. But they do not define you as a character, as other factors are more important. In this way, TSW has levels.
this.. and people are so stuck in the "numbers" of leveling.. but yea it seems some of us are arguing what seems to be differn't topics
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
The important thing is what effect "levels" have in a game, not whether they exist or are more or less hidden.
In a "classic" level-based game like WoW, levels regulate everything in the game world in a linear fashion. If you are at level-cap, you are god compared to a L10 player or mob. They could beat on you all day long and you'd not notice at all. In linear systems you are at your most powerful when you reach the "end" of the progression ladder.
In a point-based system like EVE, the amount of points you have only give you more options, not massive DPS or hitpoint advantages. A simple example: If it takes 50M skillpoints to maximize combat skills when flying a battleship, my 150M skillpoint total does not increase my combat skills in a battleship. It allows me to also maximize my mining skills, but my combat skills in a battleship forever remain capped.
So, saying "all games have levels" may be true, but to imply that that means "all games are equal" is clearly wrong.
Originally posted by SpottyGekko So, saying "all games have levels" may be true, but to imply that that means "all games are equal" is clearly wrong.
I dont' think most have been saying that.
A level is a level, period. TSW has "levels" in the form of ranks. These where used because of good reasons, since it his a progression based games, and has we've said a million times, progressions requires some form of blockers.
Even in a game that you don't get more powerfull, you still have to unlock something to get more variety in your options. That's a "level", just placed in a different form.
Originally posted by CyclopsSlay Nothing we can say will get through to the OP. His fanboi-ness is blinding him to the the buzz-words and hype illusions.
That's a mean thing to say.
What's level cap? I hear these "it's LIKE levels" arguments, but no one has qaualified these arguments by qauntifying a number. Not one.
Quantifying a number in a level based game is pretty easy.
Based on your base stats, you level is = X.
Based on max level your base stats are = X.
You just can't do that in TSW.
The way I see it:
TSW has skill and gear based progression.
Levels that other MMO's have are another form of progression.
Even EVE has a form of skill/point progression, someone who has started a new character with no skill points or money will have a hard time fighting someone who has maxed out his skills in certain fields and bigger guns.
Level system usually is more rigid than a skill based progression system, skill based progression systems are more flexible in that they're vertical as well as horizontal progression at the same time.
So yeah, skill/gear/level based systems are all progression systems, but generally levelless or skill/ability based progression systems are more flexible and more freeform in the way players progress with their invested time in the game than level based systems.
Originally posted by cooper85 Originally posted by CyclopsSlay Nothing we can say will get through to the OP. His fanboi-ness is blinding him to the the buzz-words and hype illusions.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by cooper85 Originally posted by CyclopsSlay Nothing we can say will get through to the OP. His fanboi-ness is blinding him to the the buzz-words and hype illusions.
Those pesky numbers...
Hmm. Judging by this thread it looks like you're way too stuck on the OP being stuck on his numbers thing
Originally posted by FredomSekerZ Originally posted by SpottyGekko So, saying "all games have levels" may be true, but to imply that that means "all games are equal" is clearly wrong.
The original COD or BF are leveless meaning no matter how long you play you still retain the same character to play with the same skills and the same weapons. You could argue that with the newer versions of the game they have introduced levels by allowing more weapons and abilities.
I think that is arguing for the sake of arguing and I suspect some people are doing so because they think that it somehow makes the game appear worse because of having levels. Well it doesn't, it just shows how some people really need to relax and stay away from things they inherently dislike.
Bottom line for me is, it FEELS like there are no levels and I have total freedom so I could care less if someone else wants to put labels incorrectly on the game.
Originally posted by Maelwydd I think that is arguing for the sake of arguing and I suspect some people are doing so because they think that it somehow makes the game appear worse because of having levels. Well it doesn't, it just shows how some people really need to relax and stay away from things they inherently dislike.
Oh come on, I don't think anyone here is doing that. Seen most of these posters on here in several threads and they're all interested in or have already purchased the game. They're arguing because they don't agree with the crux of the OP's statement.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Who wants to play an mmo with lvls? millions upon millions of people, apparently you missed the last 10+ years.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Originally posted by warmaster670 Who wants to play an mmo with lvls? millions upon millions of people, apparently you missed the last 10+ years.
Many people hate skillpoint systems, because they are terrified that they may "gimp" their characters by spending their skillpoints "wrongly".
With a skillpoint system, it's risky to just install the game, login, cancel the tutorial and start killing mobs. Because if you don't know what you're doing, you could end up making a total hash of your character build.
I remember one poster in the Fallen Earth forums who actually complained that the game design was really bad because it "doesn't prevent the player from making bad choices" !
In a "classic" level-based game, the game makes most of the important decisions for the player, once the character class has been chosen. If that player reaches level-cap and finds his class is broken, he can blame the game, because he is not responsible for the outcome.
If TSW had no levels, you should, hypothetically, be able to go to any location and do any content from the moment you start the game.
While there are officially no levels, it does have gear progression which needs to be unlocked through earning SP by questing and killing mobs. You can, of course, use your Skill points for whatever you want. You can invest in useless talents, spread them around evenly, and never buy "levels" in weapons, head slot items, or major/minor talismans and be stuck wearing tier 1 gear forever. But then again, I shouldn't expect to be able to survive for long in areas that drop Tier 3 gear.
MOST players are going to spend their SP on upgrading their ability to use higher level gear as they play. When you start getting Tier 2 items don't you add points to the ability to equip what you want? And do you upgrade when you get tier 3 items and so on? And do these upgrades enable you to do the content in progressively harder areas?
There is no level progression, this is true. Your "natural" stats and abilities never increase just by virtue of gaining experience. Instead, you gain AP and SP which you use to unlock skill and the ability to equip higher tier items, which enable you to do harder content.
In the end, gear progression functions much the same way as level progression.
Of course, you can gimp yourself by not buying upgrades to equip the higher tier gear that drops, but would this make sense?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Originally posted by cooper85 Originally posted by CyclopsSlay Nothing we can say will get through to the OP. His fanboi-ness is blinding him to the the buzz-words and hype illusions.
Sure you can. There are (i think 10, but not sure) weapon / equipment ranks.
Someone that has 50 AP but a maximum of rank 1 in weapons/equipment, will have some advantage in terms of versitility, but generally a person who is rank 2 in weapons/equipment will have a much greater advantage in terms of power / survivability.
Now, it gets complicated because you can be at 50 APs, Rank 3 in weapons and rank 1 in gear. But overall, your ranks in equipment will determine your power.
From what I've seen of the game thus far (public beta only). I fully expect that latter game groups will be "LF Rank 4 tank" or somesuch.
I like TSW and i like skill-based systems. But to say that there is no way to meaningfully measure character progression or power is to be ignorant of the system. It's complicated and it's fun and it allows for a shit ton more options than traditional level-based systems. But, there are still levels if you want to look for them.
(Edit: this of course assumes that someone in Rank 3 of weapons actually HAS Rank 3 weapons)
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Originally posted by cooper85 Originally posted by CyclopsSlay If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels? Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal. Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?
What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?
Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.
Trying looking from the other persons point of view. character does something and bam something progresses/improves. It might be a character level or it could be a +1 to his sword skill. It's the same.
Look, you might hate character levels, but your approach is wrong and comes of a contrary to what you want. Find a way to sell it.
Originally posted by cooper85 I don't think I can go back to a mmo with levels. Just like I can't go back to an mmo with nothing but quest text. The traditional leveling systems in mmos where you start at 1 and work/rush/grind your way to cap seems old an pointless. If you have played TSW you understand how different the leveless progression system is. "But cooper, your wrong TSW really has levels but there hidden." No TSW has proficientcies that you put skill points into that allow you to use better talismans (gear in the traditional scense) . There are no levels. You gain no HP or stregnth or raw power from adding these points nor do you have to add these points in any order other than your next will be more than your prior. You don't magically go from whimpy to awsome because of the number by you picture frame. For those of you that have not played this is how the skill points work. First the purpose of recently adding skill points is to not allow a new player to bypass all the content by being gifted the best gear. So, there are 3 talisman proficientcies. Minor, Major, and Head. There are 3 gear slots for both minor and major with 1 for the head. There are also 2 proficientcies per weapon. The quality level of weapons you can use are based on your highest proficientcies for that weapon. Lets say I'm working on a hammer/blood magic build. As I fill my xp each 1/3 bar, I will get 1 ability point. I will use these to buy or work my way towards any of the 525 abilities. Every full bar I will gain 1 skill point. So for this build I will probably put that skill point into one of the three talisman proficientcies or into one of the four weapon proficientcies for blood magic and hammers. There is no order or right way to progress. I can't imagine going through the traditional 1-cap system again. Then on top of that, rerolling doing it all over again just to try a new style. This system was a breathe of fresh air to this old gamer.
How is TSW any different than a level game from a pratical prespective?
I mean when you first enter a zone you feel week compared to the mobs in the zone and have to work hard to fight even the ones next to the entrance. Go to far into the zone to fast and you will get your butt handed to you. As you progress you get more and more powerful until you reach the end of the area and everything is trival to fight in comparison until you enter the next zone where it starts all over again and you never even think about going back to that old zone you just cleared again because the mobs/rewards are trival compared to what is next.
I'm not arguing the virtues of a leveless system but TSW isn't really one. Just because they hide your level number from the UI doesn't mean it's leveless. Nor does making it easy to change around your build. Rift does that as well and it's not leveless.
It doesn't matter to me if a game has levels or not, if it's a sandbox or not, if it's PvP focused or not, if it's made by X company instead of Y company... what matters to me is if I find it fun, if the answer is yes then I will play it, if the answer is no then I will move on.
Because flying a Minmatar ship is like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an Uzi.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Because at the start you increase in power. Once you got those talisman and 2 weapons maxed your only half way through the pve. From then on its about diversifying. The entire game is setup around players having SEVERAL builds. Not the option to have more than 1 build, its required to have several builds.
Nothing indicates that, Why would a healer, ranged DPS that can also shoot point blank, or tank require more than 1 build? This isn't some super crazy hard game. There are few dungeans and you are expected to rerun them over and over and over and over just like the quest but most people won't and those people will be fine with one traditional build. The devs said PvP will give players an ID as to what class they play so there is a class system. Diablo 3 has no tank or healer class at all and inferno is most likely harder than any TSW content, yet a team of healer, tank, 2 ranged DPS beat it within a few days.
I'm sure if ability information was readily available and those skill damage calculations that you see in all popular MMOs, for a hypothetical example: Ability X shoots for 130 weapon damage. Then there is this calculation with cooldown, ability stats, modifiers, weapon normilization, bonus effects, modifier stats such as crit, and or others and then you see the base DPS. After spending an hour in the dojo it seems like everything is close to the same but a few things are just randomly way to strong like either fists or chaos I forget as they have the same animation.
Originally posted by udon I'm not arguing the virtues of a leveless system but TSW isn't really one. Just because they hide your level number from the UI doesn't mean it's leveless. Nor does making it easy to change around your build. Rift does that as well and it's not leveless.
Eh, Rift has actual levels.
Let's just summarise the whole (imo silly) discussion going on in this thread:
- levels are a form of progression => time spent on the game gaining xp = level gain
- all levelless MMO's, even the ones like EVE, use a form of progression => time spent on the game = ability/skillpoint and/or 'gear' increase
The difference being that level progression is more rigid than levelless progression, where there's often more freeform horizontal combined with vertical progression.
Originally posted by tares Originally posted by ShakyMo Because at the start you increase in power. Once you got those talisman and 2 weapons maxed your only half way through the pve. From then on its about diversifying. The entire game is setup around players having SEVERAL builds. Not the option to have more than 1 build, its required to have several builds.
A lot of humbug and assumptions. Funny, you dismiss someone's assumptions while then coming back with your own biased assumptions. Biased in the sense that apparently you thoroughly dislike the game and have no interest in playing it, only spending all your posts on forum on it
Just like any other MMO, TSW also has roles. People will switch roles because they can, and because different enemies and traps will lead to different builds being more effective, especially since there's more skill synergy possibilities than in other MMO's. As for the whole inferno example, meh: showing that a few persons can accomplish something within a few days as example for the rest is never a sound argument. Yeah, JK Rowling became billionaire by writing a funny children's book that got popular. Does that mean that everyone can become a billionaire when they start writing children's books? Nope. Will everyone who composes a song, or starts practising basketball or start their own social networking site become a famous artist, a major league sportsman or hugely successful, just because a few people managed to do so? Nope.
As for how things will play out, we'll see.
Nothing indicates that, Why would a healer, ranged DPS that can also shoot point blank, or tank require more than 1 build?
Actually the developer descriptions and explanations of the more complex encounters do indicate this very clearly.
The reason why a tank would need more than 1 build is because there is a limit to how many abilities you can have. For example, if in a traditional MMO, a tank has 30 different skills, he may choose to use the 5 single-target taunts on a single-target fight and then use the 5 AoE-taunts on an AoE encounter. In TSW, the same tank wouldn't be able to carry all 10 abilities at the same time, they would need to switch builds from a single-target build to a multi-target build.
Please note that the above is meant to be a very simplistic example. It gets more complicated when you start to take into account "target states", so if you're in a group with 2 DPS'ers that running "weaken" builds, your group would be better if you swiitched to a build that takes advantage of weaken. When you combine the encounter's abilities, with the type of encounter (single or multi mob), with the type of group setup and with the role you're playing, it becomes both more important AND more complex to have the right build for the situation.
To give a different example: I currently play EQ2 - which is a fairly traditional MMO with classes, set skills, etc. But even in EQ2 people have multiple builds for different situations. (They just can't be switched on the fly like in TSW).
Rift is probably the best recent example of how this worked, although they didn't have anything similar to the "combat state" system.
Nothing indicates that, Why would a healer, ranged DPS that can also shoot point blank, or tank require more than 1 build? This isn't some super crazy hard game. ...
Nothing? What about the devs saying you need specific abilities and qualities to take on the bosses in the nightmare mode dungeons? For instance you might need a penetration build/evade build against one boss, or a crit/block build against another or a hit/crit build against a third boss. The same goes for PvP. For instance if "everybody" is doing a high crit build and people start stacking defense against crits, you can do a penetrate build instead.
To me, it sounds like you don't know enough about the game to come with broad statemens like you made there.
Play the game to have fun. I pity the burnt out gamers who disect every game into its base elements ruining their own fun before they even play the game.
Originally posted by cutthecrap Let's just summarise the whole (imo silly) discussion going on in this thread: - levels are a form of progression => time spent on the game gaining xp = level gain = ability/skillpoint and/or gear increase - all levelless MMO's, even the ones like EVE, use a form of progression => time spent on the game = ability/skillpoint and/or 'gear' increase
You missed the part i added in yellow, but i agree with you. The two can effectively be the same, except the latter doesn't have a set overall number (level) to sum up your progression total.
"You gain no HP or stregnth or raw power from adding these points nor do you have to add these points in any order other than your next will be more than your prior. You don't magically go from whimpy to awsome because of the number by you picture frame. "
While I agree that level progression is non existant in this game I still think this is just like any other game. There is no level progression but there is skill progression and gear progression. Nothing really changes that much, you will still go from whimpy to awesome because of the skills you have and the gear you have. Not sure this game is that much of a change from the norm.