Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by FadedbombLastly, EvE's low budget cost for content development
300 developers working on on-going EVE online development is such a low budget cost...
300 developers making $40,000 a year is $12,000,000 a year. 400,000 subs at $15 a sub is $6,000,000 a year. They are not employing 300 developers. If they are, they are paying them peanuts.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Nethriil Xp boost is not p2w. Clothes Are not p2w. Why do many in this thread Even care if there Are cash shops in games like tsw and gw2. U dont need to buy anything!!!! + people who do use the CS Are actually paying for the rest of you and ensuring content updates and great support. So Get of your high horse as its My wallet and if i chose to buy an ingame jacket thats My buisness
So it doesn't bother you at all that you are paying twice for the same content?
And the operating costs thing is a myth. Wages have been pretty stagent since the .com bust for developers (they where on average way over paid back than). Server costs are about flat for what is a low/mid/high range server, datacenter costs have gone way down due to a ton of excess floor space out there and Internet bandwidth costs are way way down price to Mbps. The only thing that had gone up is management overhead costs, legal rates, and corporate profit expectations.
They are acceptable because gamers as a whole allow it to be.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Companies need to make money right? If they can't raise the monthly sub price, what must be charged for to keep up with inflation? mmorpgs are cheap compared to many hobbies.
An argument I've made numerous times to RL friends & family :P.
However, the need to make money for a company doesn't matter with regards to inflation. A decently run MMO today takes about 5million to simply maintain, not counting development costs. 250,000 subscribers paying $15/month means they make 45million per year, and that's not counting box prices & expansion prices if applicable. That's 40million, an example btw, they can use for further content development, payroll, and profit.
Again, only a "lite" example but you get my point. They make more money than you think, and there's a point when greed is the only driving force behind a decision for suits behind the desk of a product.
Since you seem to have a strong opnion of how much money someone else should be allowed to have or spend, we'll move away from that topic and more toward a couple basics of running a company that may help you understand all of this a bit better.
If people are willing to pay 15 dollars a month for a service then a smart company will charge that, even if it costs two cents a month to provide. A company doing anything else is either in a bid for consumer rep/cred just plain stupid.
Every product or service has a life cycle - it will eventually die. A company that doesn't wish to die with its current product or service will reinvest the money from that product or service into new ones. Part of your fifteen dollars goes to building games or services you may never play. Part of your theatre ticket goes to building a new theatre or entertainment service you may never use.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Do people not realize that you're paying the developers to create content with your monthly sub only to resell that content you ALREADY PAID FOR via the expansion box.
It's like paying to see a movie, and once you're inside they sell popcorn and candy.
What
Why did you edit several points in my post completely changing the whole idea?
The point of this thread is discussing the disrespectful use of "Cash Shops". Your edit didn't even make sense at all.
I think it makes perfect sense. The CS sells stuff I don't need, and often don't want. So they subscription is the movie ticket, and the CS is the popcorn and candy. I would need a seat, but the CS doesn't sell anything I need.
The answer as to why they are in the game is simple. Thats what the company has decided their time is worth. Simple. I don't care what the money goes for (as long as it's not illegal or immoral according to my views). The company has decided this is the price, they have told me the price before I purchase, I either accept or reject. Nothing bad. Everything is simple and upfront.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Udon why do you care if i use say 5 dollars in the CS each month? In fact companies expect some return on the CS and have that incorporated in their budget. 15 bucks is not much money (its 1 movie ticket). And in the end it is always about the quality og the game and Me enjoying it.
Originally posted by Nethriil Udon why do you care if i use say 5 dollars in the CS each month? In fact companies expect some return on the CS and have that incorporated in their budget. 15 bucks is not much money (its 1 movie ticket). And in the end it is always about the quality og the game and Me enjoying it.
I could care less if you want to spend a extra 5, 10, or 100 dollars each month on game, however what I do care about is that I can't play the entire game without doing the same. And yes having access to mounts, apperance gear, potions, etc. is still a part of the game that sub players who don't use the cash shop are cut off from. I'm paying once for a sub to support the game and get access than a second time for the right to purchase items from a cash shop that the developers used my orginal sub money to create.
I know why the MMO companies do it but you know what I don't own stock in any of the game companies nor do I get bonuses from them for meeting sales goals so I don't care. I'm the consumer not the company and as such I want the best possible service for the least amount of money. And in my book that's a sub game without a cash shop. The only ones left are Rift and SWTOR off the top of my head.
Originally posted by lizardbones [ 400,000 subs at $15 a sub is $6,000,000 a year.
It makes 6M per month, not a year.
This ^
(15 x 400,000) x 12 == $72,000,000 per year.
5million basic runcosts for maintaining the server. Which leaves $67,000,000 for payroll & profit.
[edit]: As I recall they also are making $bank$ off of PLEXES being traded for isk thereby killing goldfarmer competition with their isk tracking system. So CCP is probably making somewhere between $90 - $120million per year from EvE. Certainly a very good business model CCP have.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
You dont take into account what the game costs to make nor do you take into account that money in is invested in new products. Finally most companies have investors that Are risking their own money to have the game developed and look for a return on their investment. This is how the world works. If you dont accept that companies Are out to make money then maybe go buy a farm and live og the land and sell your pc
Originally posted by Fadedbomb You overlooked the part where i said the 40mill after MAINTAINING the servers (5mill) is for payroll. You misread what i said.
I did not overlooked. You did not say server costs, you just said "costs to maintain an MMO".
Originally posted by Fadedbomb Originally posted by GdemamiOriginally posted by lizardbones [ 400,000 subs at $15 a sub is $6,000,000 a year.
It makes 6M per month, not a year.This ^
(15 x 400,000) x 12 == $72,000,000 per year.
5million basic runcosts for maintaining the server. Which leaves $67,000,000 for payroll & profit.
[edit]: As I recall they also are making $bank$ off of PLEXES being traded for isk thereby killing goldfarmer competition with their isk tracking system. So CCP is probably making somewhere between $90 - $120million per year from EvE. Certainly a very good business model CCP have.
DOH! I realized my HUGE mistake there while looking at Conan's revenue sheets. I knew something wasn't right there, but I went ahead and hit the 'post' button anyway. They could easily pay 300 developers for a year on that income.
It makes me wonder why they would have to cut back development on WoD. It doesn't seem like it would be the money. Maybe they don't want to have too many irons in the fire. Which would be a good thing, imo.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I don't play games that have Box purchase + Sub Fee + Cash Shop + Expansion purchase. If you don't like it do the same and vote with your wallet.
+1, although it's a bit different if the introduce the shop etc. after you're invested in the game.
I voted with my wallet with RIFT, SWTOR, and now Diablo 3.
Similarly, I'll do the same for TSW when it releases.
You're preaching to the choir :]!
Er it's pretty easy to do something like this when the game's actually aren't very good. Will be interesting if you'll find it so easy to walk away from a title that you really enjoy over the long term. (unless of course, you really enjoyed some of those titles)
Then again, we may never see such a thing in our lifetime, so probably not anything worth worrying about.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You overlooked the part where i said the 40mill after MAINTAINING the servers (5mill) is for payroll. You misread what i said.
I did not overlooked. You did not say server costs, you just said "costs to maintain an MMO".
Costs to maintain an MMO are server costs such as server connection bandwidth, box rent, etc. Not to mention building rent price, lighting bill for their dev buildings etc.
Not even mentioning IP licenses, or tool licenses for an engine etc etc.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Bottom line , if you have a good game. You can pretty well do what you want, within reason and get away with it. There is no saving a crap game even with a cash store.The worse the game, the heavier the reliance on the store.
It does, in fact, change gameplay as it's content that has already been paid for to be developed.
What if the content would never exist if there wasnt a cash shop?
Perfect example is EQ2 housing. For years it was the same styles, just whatever the housing was for in the cities (new cities always introduced new housing). Fancy housing was never in the game, however they started putting it in the cash shop. As a result, there is now some fancy housing available in game, veterans get a real nice one for free even, AND people can now own multiple homes, a big boon to everyone.
If not for the cash shop its unlikely the fancier homes would have ever been developed.
And for the people that say 'they could be using that development time towards gameplay stuff', different people work on different things. If not for the extra line of income, those devs making the housing wouldnt be working on something else, they wouldnt be on the eq2 team.
Do people not realize that you're paying the developers to create content with your monthly sub only to resell that content you ALREADY PAID FOR via the expansion box.
It's like paying to see a movie, and once you're inside they sell popcorn and candy.
This is the perfect analogy, but not in the way you want it to be.
You know what percentage of that movie ticket revenue goes to the theatre? On average less than10%. (typically during the first two weeks of a movie's run, 100% of ticket revenue goes to the distrbutors). After paying rent, electric, wages, and taxes, if a movie theater's only source of revenue was ticket sales they would be in the red and shut down.
I wont pay for an expansion anymore. To many studios are giving you expansion like content patches without the need to pay for them for me to think that it's not something that I shouldn't expect. Silly of me or not, I do feel that my subscription fee should cover the growth of the game as much as it keeps the servers online.
Fluff MT shops though? Don't care, and I'll even use them if there's something in there I might like. I'm a collector, it's a bad habbit, and I don't blame developres for taking advantage of my impulsiveness when it comes to stupid crap I don't need but am willing to fork over money for.
I've been manipulating people like this for most of my life. I wouldn't paint a picture of a flower because I find it oh so much fun, I do it because someone is willing to give me money for it. I can hardly hold it against someone else for doing to me what I do to others.
Do people not realize that you're paying the developers to create content with your monthly sub only to resell that content you ALREADY PAID FOR
Not commenting on whether or not a cash shop in a PtP game is appropriate, but this particular quoted point is incorrect.
Your $15 per month is for access to the game for 30 days. You did not pay for future content, but the company may choose to invest the money you paid to play the game this month in content development.
But to claim that you paid for access to future content with this month's sub fee would be comparable to claiming that your sub fee to WoW should grant you access to Brazilian phone service because the parent company that Blizzard channels income to also owns GVT.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
The cash shops I have seen in subscription games offer mainly fluff items. If someone wants to waste their spending money on them, it is their money. Does not bother me in the least.
The cash shops I have seen in subscription games offer mainly fluff items. If someone wants to waste their spending money, it is there money. Does not bother me in the least.
There is a sound enough argument (for once... when regarding cash-shop hatred) that they are already getting money on a monthly basis, so adding items that cannot be gotten through regular gameplay means becomes an attack on the wallets of feeble-minded folks, and an insult to the rest of them. Skeletal horses could have been impossible to get and less people would complain about it than when you could just outright pay for them (as easy as it gets). It's not really about the money, most people can afford it if they are already paying 15$ a month, but cash grabs are insulting in just about any form... like Day 1 DLC.
Nobody has the balls to truly boycott the products, though, and even if they did, there's enough extra income from those ignoring the boycott to make up for it. Total win/wins for companies.
If these companies wanted to save face, they would just credit accounts with a cash-shop point allowance equal to their already recurring subscription's cost... but they won't.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Comments
300 developers working on on-going EVE online development is such a low budget cost...
300 developers making $40,000 a year is $12,000,000 a year. 400,000 subs at $15 a sub is $6,000,000 a year. They are not employing 300 developers. If they are, they are paying them peanuts.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It makes 6M per month, not a year.
So it doesn't bother you at all that you are paying twice for the same content?
And the operating costs thing is a myth. Wages have been pretty stagent since the .com bust for developers (they where on average way over paid back than). Server costs are about flat for what is a low/mid/high range server, datacenter costs have gone way down due to a ton of excess floor space out there and Internet bandwidth costs are way way down price to Mbps. The only thing that had gone up is management overhead costs, legal rates, and corporate profit expectations.
They are acceptable because gamers as a whole allow it to be.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Since you seem to have a strong opnion of how much money someone else should be allowed to have or spend, we'll move away from that topic and more toward a couple basics of running a company that may help you understand all of this a bit better.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think it makes perfect sense. The CS sells stuff I don't need, and often don't want. So they subscription is the movie ticket, and the CS is the popcorn and candy. I would need a seat, but the CS doesn't sell anything I need.
The answer as to why they are in the game is simple. Thats what the company has decided their time is worth. Simple. I don't care what the money goes for (as long as it's not illegal or immoral according to my views). The company has decided this is the price, they have told me the price before I purchase, I either accept or reject. Nothing bad. Everything is simple and upfront.
"Companies are trying to nickle and dimme me by using sub and cs"
"What company actually isn't trying to nickle and dimme you? What company cares more about you then your money?"
"Humm...................................huh.....................huh....."
I could care less if you want to spend a extra 5, 10, or 100 dollars each month on game, however what I do care about is that I can't play the entire game without doing the same. And yes having access to mounts, apperance gear, potions, etc. is still a part of the game that sub players who don't use the cash shop are cut off from. I'm paying once for a sub to support the game and get access than a second time for the right to purchase items from a cash shop that the developers used my orginal sub money to create.
I know why the MMO companies do it but you know what I don't own stock in any of the game companies nor do I get bonuses from them for meeting sales goals so I don't care. I'm the consumer not the company and as such I want the best possible service for the least amount of money. And in my book that's a sub game without a cash shop. The only ones left are Rift and SWTOR off the top of my head.
You overlooked the part where i said the 40mill after MAINTAINING the servers (5mill) is for payroll. You misread what i said.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
This ^
(15 x 400,000) x 12 == $72,000,000 per year.
5million basic runcosts for maintaining the server. Which leaves $67,000,000 for payroll & profit.
[edit]: As I recall they also are making $bank$ off of PLEXES being traded for isk thereby killing goldfarmer competition with their isk tracking system. So CCP is probably making somewhere between $90 - $120million per year from EvE. Certainly a very good business model CCP have.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I did not overlooked. You did not say server costs, you just said "costs to maintain an MMO".
This ^
(15 x 400,000) x 12 == $72,000,000 per year.
5million basic runcosts for maintaining the server. Which leaves $67,000,000 for payroll & profit.
[edit]: As I recall they also are making $bank$ off of PLEXES being traded for isk thereby killing goldfarmer competition with their isk tracking system. So CCP is probably making somewhere between $90 - $120million per year from EvE. Certainly a very good business model CCP have.
DOH! I realized my HUGE mistake there while looking at Conan's revenue sheets. I knew something wasn't right there, but I went ahead and hit the 'post' button anyway. They could easily pay 300 developers for a year on that income.
It makes me wonder why they would have to cut back development on WoD. It doesn't seem like it would be the money. Maybe they don't want to have too many irons in the fire. Which would be a good thing, imo.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Er it's pretty easy to do something like this when the game's actually aren't very good. Will be interesting if you'll find it so easy to walk away from a title that you really enjoy over the long term. (unless of course, you really enjoyed some of those titles)
Then again, we may never see such a thing in our lifetime, so probably not anything worth worrying about.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Costs to maintain an MMO are server costs such as server connection bandwidth, box rent, etc. Not to mention building rent price, lighting bill for their dev buildings etc.
Not even mentioning IP licenses, or tool licenses for an engine etc etc.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Bottom line , if you have a good game. You can pretty well do what you want, within reason and get away with it. There is no saving a crap game even with a cash store.The worse the game, the heavier the reliance on the store.
What if the content would never exist if there wasnt a cash shop?
Perfect example is EQ2 housing. For years it was the same styles, just whatever the housing was for in the cities (new cities always introduced new housing). Fancy housing was never in the game, however they started putting it in the cash shop. As a result, there is now some fancy housing available in game, veterans get a real nice one for free even, AND people can now own multiple homes, a big boon to everyone.
If not for the cash shop its unlikely the fancier homes would have ever been developed.
And for the people that say 'they could be using that development time towards gameplay stuff', different people work on different things. If not for the extra line of income, those devs making the housing wouldnt be working on something else, they wouldnt be on the eq2 team.
This is the perfect analogy, but not in the way you want it to be.
You know what percentage of that movie ticket revenue goes to the theatre? On average less than10%. (typically during the first two weeks of a movie's run, 100% of ticket revenue goes to the distrbutors). After paying rent, electric, wages, and taxes, if a movie theater's only source of revenue was ticket sales they would be in the red and shut down.
I wont pay for an expansion anymore. To many studios are giving you expansion like content patches without the need to pay for them for me to think that it's not something that I shouldn't expect. Silly of me or not, I do feel that my subscription fee should cover the growth of the game as much as it keeps the servers online.
Fluff MT shops though? Don't care, and I'll even use them if there's something in there I might like. I'm a collector, it's a bad habbit, and I don't blame developres for taking advantage of my impulsiveness when it comes to stupid crap I don't need but am willing to fork over money for.
I've been manipulating people like this for most of my life. I wouldn't paint a picture of a flower because I find it oh so much fun, I do it because someone is willing to give me money for it. I can hardly hold it against someone else for doing to me what I do to others.
Not commenting on whether or not a cash shop in a PtP game is appropriate, but this particular quoted point is incorrect.
Your $15 per month is for access to the game for 30 days. You did not pay for future content, but the company may choose to invest the money you paid to play the game this month in content development.
But to claim that you paid for access to future content with this month's sub fee would be comparable to claiming that your sub fee to WoW should grant you access to Brazilian phone service because the parent company that Blizzard channels income to also owns GVT.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I don't think it's acceptable, but I know it's unstoppable. *nuff said*
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The cash shops I have seen in subscription games offer mainly fluff items. If someone wants to waste their spending money on them, it is their money. Does not bother me in the least.
There is a sound enough argument (for once... when regarding cash-shop hatred) that they are already getting money on a monthly basis, so adding items that cannot be gotten through regular gameplay means becomes an attack on the wallets of feeble-minded folks, and an insult to the rest of them. Skeletal horses could have been impossible to get and less people would complain about it than when you could just outright pay for them (as easy as it gets). It's not really about the money, most people can afford it if they are already paying 15$ a month, but cash grabs are insulting in just about any form... like Day 1 DLC.
Nobody has the balls to truly boycott the products, though, and even if they did, there's enough extra income from those ignoring the boycott to make up for it. Total win/wins for companies.
If these companies wanted to save face, they would just credit accounts with a cash-shop point allowance equal to their already recurring subscription's cost... but they won't.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture