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Quick observation: It's not permadeath

UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon

DayZ isn't permadeath. 

If the guy that made the mod removed the need to have you remake the character after you died, to just having you spawn in a radom location in the world, it would be the exact same thing as you're experiencing now. 

I'm in no way making a statement about permadeath.  I'm only pointing out that there is no difference between making you recreate a character or having you respawn in a random location with the same character, because the only thing you're losing are items.

If it had some form of character development, then I would say that it's permadeath. 

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Comments

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member

    Well its a FPS.  So no there's no character stats or anything like that. 

     

    For this, the items are the character development and many as far as I know are not easy to get.  A good rifle or even a flashlight can be somewhat priceless at times.  Loosing all your stuff is a big deal as it can probably take hours to replace it.  I qualify that as perma death even though you may not. 

     

    Because if you die you start over at the beginning with absolutely nothing.  What happens in old Nintendo games when you run out of lives?  Game over and you start over at the beginning.  Well here there is only one life.  You loose it?  You start over with nothing at the beginning.  Perma death. 

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by Corehaven

    Well its a FPS.  So no there's no character stats or anything like that. 

     

    For this, the items are the character development and many as far as I know are not easy to get.  A good rifle or even a flashlight can be somewhat priceless at times.  Loosing all your stuff is a big deal as it can probably take hours to replace it.  I qualify that as perma death even though you may not. 

     

    Because if you die you start over at the beginning with absolutely nothing.  What happens in old Nintendo games when you run out of lives?  Game over and you start over at the beginning.  Well here there is only one life.  You loose it?  You start over with nothing at the beginning.  Perma death. 

    Exactly... In DayZ item collection is character development. Losing all of your items when you die is losing your character as it's what defines you in this game.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • StrangeEyesStrangeEyes vlaardingenPosts: 119Member

    Its permadeath but its no big deal getting items back is for most time no big deal.

    I dont see realy what some means when you have items in defines you what you are lol. Its all very random and luck you can find stuff you never and i say NEVER will know who is who we always are same as the other 50 players only maybe some are female and some always go for some kind of weapon but you still never know or reconize this guy.

    You define nothing in this. Not much variation or long enough to be the guy who everybody reconize hehe.

    Its awesome game but the dying and your stuff is no big deal at all you have it back in notime.

     

    Let me correct also some guys here who claim you start with nothing well they LIAR'S:P

    5clips of makarov bullets 8x per magazine.

    1x makarov handgun

    2x banadage

    1xwater

    2xmorphine

    1xpainkillers

    2xcans of beans

    and one empty backpack

    Seems ALOT to me to start with.

    This started setup is avarage on most server only few have hardcore and start with nothing, but thats also no realy problem you will find soon enough items to survive.

    After a while you know how to survive and findd your items.

     

    CPU:Intel Core i7-3770K 4GHz
    GPU:ASUS HD 7970 DirectCU II TOP
    MB:ASUS P8Z77-V DELUXE
    Case:Cooler Master HAF X
    RAM:Corsair 16GB 1600
    PSU:Corsair gold 850
    HD:SSD OCZ 256 GB vertex4

  • GibboniciGibbonici LeedsPosts: 472Member Common
    Originally posted by StrangeEyes

    Its awesome game but the dying and your stuff is no big deal at all you have it back in notime.

     

    I dunno about that. My current character has been alive for four days now and I've still not found a compass or map. The map I can do without on this go round, but I really want a compass for the way I'm playing this particular character.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by StrangeEyes

    Its permadeath but its no big deal getting items back is for most time no big deal.

    I dont see realy what some means when you have items in defines you what you are lol. Its all very random and luck you can find stuff you never and i say NEVER will know who is who we always are same as the other 50 players only maybe some are female and some always go for some kind of weapon but you still never know or reconize this guy.

    You define nothing in this. Not much variation or long enough to be the guy who everybody reconize hehe.

    Its awesome game but the dying and your stuff is no big deal at all you have it back in notime.

     

    Let me correct also some guys here who claim you start with nothing well they LIAR'S:P

    5clips of makarov bullets 8x per magazine.

    1x makarov handgun

    2x banadage

    1xwater

    2xmorphine

    1xpainkillers

    2xcans of beans

    and one empty backpack

    Seems ALOT to me to start with.

    This started setup is avarage on most server only few have hardcore and start with nothing, but thats also no realy problem you will find soon enough items to survive.

    After a while you know how to survive and findd your items.

     

    In ArmA 2 that is basically nothing. You'll burn through that stuff in your first hour unless you're extremely careful. Food and water may last longer if you wait until it flashes before consuming. That pistol is only good for headshots as well. You'll need at least 3 body shots to kill a single zombie. The best part of the setup is the medical supplies but again unless you are extremely careful you can use them up pretty fast as well. You are correct that it seems like a lot but unless you've been playing a while and know how to survive you can burn through that stuff pretty quick. Finding stuff when you first start playing can be very tough and the best stuff always comes at extreme risk as others want it too. You need a lot of skill and even more luck as things aren't aways where you expect in this game. Just becaue you found a shiney rifle in a spot once doesn't mean it will always be there.

     

    With no actual character development other than the items you pick up along the way your items do define you. Someone with an AK has a lot better chance against other players than someone with the starting pistol for example. Also having a map or a compass is a huge bonus as you are no longer running around blind. Having binoculars or a scoped rifle is a huge bonus as seeing other players before they see you can mean the difference of life or a restart on the beach. What you have does define you in this game.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • CallinCallin Florence, SCPosts: 99Member

    its not a huge deal but it does suck to have a character that is a few hours old and then lose the stuff and go back to square one.  

    Last character i had had and ALICE pack... man i wish i had those 22 slots now. Though i do have a compass and binoculars this time. Will suck once this character dies.

    So yea its permadeath becuase you lose all the progress with gear that you have found. The experience of the world, aka learning the landscape and what not. That does stick with you through all your lives. And that to me is way more precious.

    And being randomly spawned somewhere on  the map as a person who is still pretty new is a HUGE disadvantage when they are not cheating by Googling a map.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Corehaven

    Well its a FPS.  So no there's no character stats or anything like that. 

     

    For this, the items are the character development and many as far as I know are not easy to get.  A good rifle or even a flashlight can be somewhat priceless at times.  Loosing all your stuff is a big deal as it can probably take hours to replace it.  I qualify that as perma death even though you may not. 

     

    Because if you die you start over at the beginning with absolutely nothing.  What happens in old Nintendo games when you run out of lives?  Game over and you start over at the beginning.  Well here there is only one life.  You loose it?  You start over with nothing at the beginning.  Perma death. 

     So when you die the only thing you lose are items?

    Isn't that the definition of a FULL LOOT system? 

    How would that be any diffierent then if DF had you resurrect in a completely random location in the world when you died?  You lost the exact same thing in both games, items.  But because one game doesn't make you take a couple of seconds to remake a character one is permadeath and the other isn't?  I disagree, without any form of CHARACTER development, and character development isn't item collection, then the only thing you can lose are items and therefore it's only full loot.

     

    Let me put it another way. 

    I make a character, manage to collect a bunch of stuff, find some place out of the way and hide that stuff, then I die.  I remake the exact same character, go to were I hid a bunch of stuff to resuply myself.  The is no significant difference between what I just described and Mortal Online.

     

    Again, this isn't a permadeath sucks thread.  It's a, there is no permadeath in a game that has no character development thread.  You're not attached to the character, you're attached to the items you collect.  It's the exact same thing in MO or DF, and in fact MO is harsher, because you can actually lose skills if you PK and then die.

    Let me again put it another way.  If removing the need to create a new character doesn't change the fundimental penalty of death, then how is it permadeath?  If the modder made you spawn in a new plaace in the world every time you died, it wouldn't change anything that's already happening in the game.

    If removing the need to make a new character doesn't actually alter the game in any way, I don't think it's really fair to call it permadeath.  It's attaching more significance to the mechanic then is deserving.

     

    Or let me try it another way.  In a permadeath system, the threat of losing the character is supposed to be the driving force behind death.  What are you trying not to lose in DayZ?

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Callin

    its not a huge deal but it does suck to have a character that is a few hours old and then lose the stuff and go back to square one.  

     This is the point I'm trying to make.

    You're not worried about your character, you're worried about the items.  That's the point of full loot. 

    Permadeath means you're not worried about the items, because there's an investment in the character that's been made and you don't want to lose that.  

    You can actually get around the full loot part of DayZ by hiding items, of course you've got to hope someone doesn't stumble across your stash before you can remake a character, but as long as you can make another character and get back to your stash you haven't actually lost anything. 

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    You can be very much attached to the character. 

    The game is not about items only, it is about survival. There are players out there who are alive since weeks ingame, if they die it is a tragedy for them.

    It is your own decision how much you are attached to a character, for me permadeath exists since you invest a lot of time and work into your character to not to die. You advance in the game, but this is different from other games you played before.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by spizz

    You can be very much attached to the character. 

    The game is not about items only, it is about survival. There are players out there who are alive since weeks ingame, if they die it is a tragedy for them.

    It is your own decision how much you are attached to a character, for me permadeath exists since you invest a lot of time and work into your character to not to die. You advance in the game, but this is different from other games you played before.

     The last part is why I mentioned MO and DF, because it's not different. 

    Convince me another way.  Direct me to a game that promotes permadeath as a feature of the game.

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    I didnt play MO and DF, cant say anything about these games. It is all about how do you see your character ingame in DayZ. This is not a game which dictates like many games out there. I dont know any other game which has a similar gameplay, so I cant direct you to other games.

  • OnomicOnomic TønsbergPosts: 196Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by spizz

    You can be very much attached to the character. 

    The game is not about items only, it is about survival. There are players out there who are alive since weeks ingame, if they die it is a tragedy for them.

    It is your own decision how much you are attached to a character, for me permadeath exists since you invest a lot of time and work into your character to not to die. You advance in the game, but this is different from other games you played before.

     The last part is why I mentioned MO and DF, because it's not different. 

    Convince me another way.  Direct me to a game that promotes permadeath as a feature of the game.

    I think it is different, in df/mo you can run to ur chest and gather the gear you have stored and be fit for fight again. i dont think this is viable for most people in DayZ since you need to guard that stash but i might be wrong here.

  • ResiakrawResiakraw Allentown, PAPosts: 73Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by spizz

    You can be very much attached to the character. 

    The game is not about items only, it is about survival. There are players out there who are alive since weeks ingame, if they die it is a tragedy for them.

    It is your own decision how much you are attached to a character, for me permadeath exists since you invest a lot of time and work into your character to not to die. You advance in the game, but this is different from other games you played before.

     The last part is why I mentioned MO and DF, because it's not different. 

    Convince me another way.  Direct me to a game that promotes permadeath as a feature of the game.

    Id say the main difference is that in DF its about character development, in DayZ its about the items.

     

    In DF you spend months training up your stats and skills/spells to make your character more viable in PvP. The higher you train your character the more effective your character is with any form of equipment. The equipment is pretty easy to obtain through crafting/trading and is basically considered disposable. Most people dont go out hunting for PvP in their "best" gear because most likely youre going to end up losing it at some point in the battle. But regardless of what gear you use, youre still gaining character stats as you fight, and when you die you still have those stats. and are stronger than before you went out for the fight.

    DayZ being non character stat based means if you lose your items, you lose everything. There was no character/stat progression made that sticks with you even though you lost the fight. It may not be a pure permadeath mechanic, but its about as close as you can get. Basically it's like there is permadeath except they automatically recreate the character for you witht he same name and start you from scratch, instead of you manually doing it.

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    Again, the chracter progression in DayZ means aswell survival. It is not just only about items. It is a survival game and if you dont survive you die. Of course it is up to you how do you play it, you can think the characters life is not worth anything and I just spawn back at the beach, but many are not playing like this. 

    The days how long you survive are counted, you start with Day 0.

  • jmlane223jmlane223 great mills, MDPosts: 106Member

    How active/fun is this game? It looks interesting but not sure I want to purchase Arma II CO to play it (unless there is a way around purchasing Arma II CO?)

  • GN-003GN-003 NA, HIPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by StrangeEyes

    Its permadeath but its no big deal getting items back is for most time no big deal.

    I dont see realy what some means when you have items in defines you what you are lol. Its all very random and luck you can find stuff you never and i say NEVER will know who is who we always are same as the other 50 players only maybe some are female and some always go for some kind of weapon but you still never know or reconize this guy.

    You define nothing in this. Not much variation or long enough to be the guy who everybody reconize hehe.

    Its awesome game but the dying and your stuff is no big deal at all you have it back in notime.

     

    Sorry, but you're wrong. Have all of your items back in no time? What? If you had absolutely nothing of value on you to begin with, sure. It all depends on what you had on you prior to your death. It's not like you walk for for an hour and magically happen upon NVG's, an M4, ghillie suit, compass/map, blood packs, matches, tons of food and water, etc. Unless, of course, you're extremely lucky and discover a dead survivor that was well equipped.

    Originally posted by jmlane223

    How active/fun is this game? It looks interesting but not sure I want to purchase Arma II CO to play it (unless there is a way around purchasing Arma II CO?)

    Support the developers and ARMA II. It's only $30 on STEAM.

  • jmlane223jmlane223 great mills, MDPosts: 106Member

    This game is sounding more and more fun... is it one big persistant world with no instances (so everyone playing is on the same map)? 

  • GN-003GN-003 NA, HIPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by jmlane223

    This game is sounding more and more fun... is it one big persistant world with no instances (so everyone playing is on the same map)? 

    ARMA II (by its nature) has zero instances. OFP and ARMA have always been about largescale warfare, so the maps are massive. DayZ uses the Chernarus map from vanilla ARMA II. Here's a map to give you an idea of how big it is. http://teamfackin.com/moocow/dayz/map/

     

     

  • MexorillaMexorilla Las Vegas, NVPosts: 313Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by Corehaven

     

     

     

     

     What are you trying not to lose in DayZ?

    your life.  it's a survival mod.  if you die you lose.

  • WorstluckWorstluck the valley, CAPosts: 1,269Member

    Not sure what the issue is here.  You play the game, get stuff (which is like building your character in an RPG), shoot zombies and players then when you die, that character you were playing is permanently dead and you must start over with the basic supplies.  Call it whatever you want.  That specific character you were building is permanently dead.

     

    You are splitting hairs here for some reason.  Fine, it isn't your definitioin of permadeath.  Ok?  Still a great mod for a great game regardless!

    image

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member
    Originally posted by jmlane223

    How active/fun is this game? It looks interesting but not sure I want to purchase Arma II CO to play it (unless there is a way around purchasing Arma II CO?)

    Alright will get some infos for you and to those who are interested:

    Arma 2: DayZ is quiete active and fast growing, actually out of nowhere without advertising or marketing. After a while the press did catch on it. Was almost for two weeks top seller on steam, now 2nd position lol.

    Watching the official board info: Around 2 mill characters, almost 155.000 unique players and 150+ servers with almost 10.000 concurrent players online, alone 7k are from Steam.

     

    If you want to support the devs directly so they get more out of it, you can buy the game from their own shop. They have the non-Steam and Steam version for download. Click on Action/FPS tab to find the non-Steam version. You need either Arma 2 + Operations Arrowhead or the whole package, called Arma 2: Combined Operations. DayZ mod itself is free.

    Price currently for Arma 2: Combined Operations: 24.99 $

    https://store.bistudio.com/

  • GibboniciGibbonici LeedsPosts: 472Member Common
    Originally posted by jmlane223

    This game is sounding more and more fun... is it one big persistant world with no instances (so everyone playing is on the same map)? 

     

    It's separate servers of around 50 players each with a seamless world of 225km/2 containing 300-1000 constantly spawning zombies. Your character is persistant across all servers but any items you have placed in the world (tents, vehicles, barbed wire etc) only exist on the server they were found/placed on. All servers host the same map.  The low number of players is vital for the apocalypse vibe, not that ArmA 2 could run much bigger servers.

     

    Also its worth remember that the game's only in early alpha at the moment so it's neither fully featured or bug free.

     

     

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    DayZ isn't permadeath. 

    If the guy that made the mod removed the need to have you remake the character after you died, to just having you spawn in a radom location in the world, it would be the exact same thing as you're experiencing now. 

    I'm in no way making a statement about permadeath.  I'm only pointing out that there is no difference between making you recreate a character or having you respawn in a random location with the same character, because the only thing you're losing are items.

    If it had some form of character development, then I would say that it's permadeath. 

    It is perma death.  You are creating a brand new character, in a brand new random location, with none of your items from the previous character.  Everything you had was wiped clean, no matter if you gained levels or items as progression.  

     

    It doesn't matter if you are losing skills or not from your character.  The bottom line is this, you are going back to square one with your character.  You are going back to the starting point of your progression.  That is perma death.  Your definition is not accurate. 

  • BigCountryBigCountry Charlotte, NCPosts: 478Member

    You also lose all your stats.

     

    # of zombies kills, # of headshots. # of players killed etc.

     

    Pretty soon those are going to be publically posted on the website I hope. So everyone can see the top survivors.

    :D

    BigCountry | Head Hunters | www.wefarmpeople.com

  • NaralNaral Solway, MNPosts: 751Member Uncommon

    What I don't get is why people want to be so nitpicky and critical of a FREE mod. Yes, you have to pay for Arma II and the OA expac, but the mod itself, is in alpha phase and FREE. 

    I think to 90% of the people out there, dying permanently, and having to make a new character is in fact, perma death. You lose a lot, but if you don't think it is perma death, well, good for you I guess. ;-)

    What I hope comes out of this game, is that MMO developers look at how wildly successful this relatively hardcore game is, and starting putting some money towards this kind of game.  

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