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General: Closing Time

2

Comments

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    I have to disagree a liiiiiitle bit on the "they couldn't see it coming" when it comes to 38. The word "bankruptcy" was floating around our ears at least a month prior. If we were hearing it, THEY had to be. Let's not forget they went a few months without pay too.

     

    I won't say "That's their fault for not getting a new job when the chips were getting low" because frankly it's not that easy, especially in an industry so specialized. Those guys had to see it coming, and mostly sat there watching the freight train, not able to do anything but work harder and hope they could escape.

  • ScorpionOneScorpionOne Mechanicville, NYPosts: 190Member Uncommon

    I feel for anyone who gets laid off.  I was there.  When I was laid off, like one other in the comments, at least HR let me go to my car on my own and without security.  Didn't make me feel any better.  But the same thoughts went through my head: "What could I have done more?", "Could I have done something different?", etc etc.  Two years unemployed until a saving grace from former experience picked me back up.  Thank god for secondary experience.  And when someone tells you don't burn your bridges, please believe me when I reiterate that.  DO NOT BURN YOUR BRIDGES!  That bridge might just be your only saving grace from losing everything you worked your ass off for.

     

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  • VeldaraVeldara glendale, CAPosts: 29Member

    All I'm gonna say is I hope each and everyone of those people that lost their jobs gets back on their feet soon.  I'll say this though, the videogame industry is a brutal one and anyone that gets in has my respect, especially those that aren't in the big name positions.

  • SBE1SBE1 New York, NYPosts: 335Member

    Just tell them those employees to "use skill" just like you did after the "see hidden" patch in DAOC Sonya!  

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    Edit:  Outside of the upper level people who are controlling things, i definitely feel for the people losing their jobs.  Especially in this time and day.  The low level and mid level guys don't deserve this, that being said, i stand by the rest of my post.

     

    This has not been a bad week, this has been a FANTASTIC week.  Why?  Do i like to see game companies fail? No, not normally.  But when they posess the level of hubris of companies like Bioware.  OMG it makes my manly bits tingle when i hear things like what happened this week.

    I've been waiting for literally years for gamers to finally pull their heads out of their proverbial asses and pull the wool from their eyes.  These game companies have been foisting the same, rehashed, slap a pair of tits and and new coat of paint on it and sell it as new, "games", for the last half a decade, and the most insulting part is the gamers have been lapping it up like its the nectar of the gods because of "brand loyalty".

    Bioware circa 2012 is *not* Bioware circa 2000.  Same goes for Blizzard.  Blizzard now, is not = Blizzard North of ye olden days.

    You see, back then it went like this:  Make a game with artistic integrity according to our vision of coolness and awesome sauce first, then secondarily hope it sells well and makes good money.

    Now, you have games being made the same way as pop music.  Freeze dried, follow a formula, make it shiny and have big titties and assume it will sell well.  Who the fuck cares about artistic integrity, whats that?  Its all about monetization.

    So yes, i'm fucking ecstatic that Bioware is getting a fat turd shit down their throat.  They deserve every inch of it.

     

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Garkan

    I am curious about the being escorted off the premises thing, is that something unique to the software industry or is it standard practice for other employers?

    Personally I have been made redundant only once. I have little experiance in that regard but in my case I was not escorted out, noone else was either. I can see why it might be necessary if someone was sacked for bad conduct but not for redundancy.

    This is common place in all IT jobs.  You have access to data,programs, and possibly vpn access from home.  Every time I ever turned in a notice or, the few times I got downsized I have always been escorted by security to my desk gathered my things, end promptly escorted out to my vehicle, and followed of the property. They don't want you touching anything.

    Happens all the time, especially when you work in the financial industry part of it.

    I remember years ago when south southern Bell, who is now bellsouth, called all their it employees to the lunch room.  The had security clean out all their desk, and fired all the it staff.  They were then told if they wanted their jobs back that they had to go through this contracting agency  if they wanted to work for them. Upon exiting out of the lunch are the were each handed their box of goodies and escorted to the parking deck.  This was back back in the early 80's in Birmingham AL.

     

  • tkobotkobo Dunellen, NJPosts: 465Member

    ....didnt those people GET their jobs due to poor management ?

     

    Lets face it,the industry is brimming with incompetence.Its not just the suits.All this "pity the workers" who CHOOSE to stay in an industry choked with failure,who CHOOSE to work for companies that are at best gambles,etc... is just biased over emotional nonsense.

     

    If anything,they should be grateful their bad decisions allowed them income as long as they did.And grateful theres no way to recover the money they sucked up as their part of the mmo industries latest trainwrecks.

     

    You dont hang the pirate captain and let his numerous minions prance away free,you hang them all.In this case,the "hanging" is a simple cessation of wasted payments to people who are part of a group who will NOT produce a product they were paid to.

     

    The only real unfairness here,is that the captains are not as prompty "hung" as the minions in the mmo industry.BUT then just watch when the very next time one of these "captains" anounces their next trainwreck to be....Watch how many will dance around with glee and proclaim how this time they wont produce another monumental failure.Watch how this very site and its mouthpieces who are so indignant now,will hype the next trainwreck to be, AND the devs making it,to absurd levels.

     

    Just watch then how fast all these "captains" past failures are suddenly , at most,ignored....and how the next trainwreck is cheered on as it rolls down the same old tracks.

     

     

     
     
  • frestonfreston orensePosts: 521Member
    Originally posted by tkobo

    ....didnt those people GET their jobs due to poor management ?

     

    Lets face it,the industry is brimming with incompetence.Its not just the suits.All this "pity the workers" who CHOOSE to stay in an industry choked with failure,who CHOOSE to work for companies that are at best gambles,etc... is just biased over emotional nonsense.

     

    If anything,they should be grateful their bad decisions allowed them income as long as they did.And grateful theres no way to recover the money they sucked up as their part of the mmo industries latest trainwrecks.

     

    You dont hang the pirate captain and let his numerous minions prance away free,you hang them all.In this case,the "hanging" is a simple cessation of wasted payments to people who are part of a group who will NOT produce a product they were paid to.

     

    The only real unfairness here,is that the captains are not as prompty "hung" as the minions in the mmo industry.BUT then just watch when the very next time one of these "captains" anounces their next trainwreck to be....Watch how many will dance around with glee and proclaim how this time they wont produce another monumental failure.Watch how this very site and its mouthpieces who are so indignant now,will hype the next trainwreck to be, AND the devs making it,to absurd levels.

     

    Just watch then how fast all these "captains" past failures are suddenly , at most,ignored....and how the next trainwreck is cheered on as it rolls down the same old tracks.

     

     

     
     

    You see the world in a very simplistic black and white view. Things not only fail out of incompetence. You can be a great leader, have a great idea and a great team and fail all the same. 

  • NetspookNetspook OsloPosts: 1,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tkobo

    Lets face it,the industry is brimming with incompetence.Its not just the suits.All this "pity the workers" who CHOOSE to stay in an industry choked with failure,who CHOOSE to work for companies that are at best gambles,etc... is just biased over emotional nonsense. 

     

    I have to agree.

    I do feel sorry for anyone who's laid off, but frankly, I feel less sorry for those in this industry. Unless they're completely clueless, they have to know that this is one of the most unstable industries on the entire planet. Yet they decided to walk that road.

    I know how it's like to lose a job, I've experienced it myself. But why is it that laid offs from game studios whine so much more than anyone else who lost their jobs?

    From the article:

    "One of the comments swirling around the collective MMO universe is that the recently axed employees had to be delusional to not realize the end was near. That's completely unfair, and untrue."

    May be a correct statement in some cases, but not for those who worked at 38 Studios. Even for me, who sits on the other side of the pond, that one wasn't anywhere near a surprise, so if those employees didn't know the end was near, then they're too dumb to deserve better. Harsh, but true.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    "One of the comments swirling around the collective MMO universe is that the recently axed employees had to be delusional to not realize the end was near. That's completely unfair, and untrue. It's true that the more experienced you are, the more likely you are to know that something is wrong. (Many of the most telling red flags are only visible in hindsight, and so you can't recognize them until you've been clubbed by them.) But you may not know what, and you certainly don't know when. I have not been shocked to learn of the demise of any of my employers - but the timing has been at least somewhat unexpected every time."

     

    I might or might have been in a Stress Test. After this hypothetical Stress Test it became very apparent that this game was in serious trouble. Especially when they said the game had to be out by the end of the year. 

    I think when you are too close to a project it is hard to be objective. This is probably why we can't see the writing on the wall in certain situations. 

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member
    Originally posted by Netspook
    Originally posted by tkobo

    Lets face it,the industry is brimming with incompetence.Its not just the suits.All this "pity the workers" who CHOOSE to stay in an industry choked with failure,who CHOOSE to work for companies that are at best gambles,etc... is just biased over emotional nonsense. 

     

    I have to agree.

    I do feel sorry for anyone who's laid off, but frankly, I feel less sorry for those in this industry. Unless they're completely clueless, they have to know that this is one of the most unstable industries on the entire planet. Yet they decided to walk that road.

    I know how it's like to lose a job, I've experienced it myself. But why is it that laid offs from game studios whine so much more than anyone else who lost their jobs?

    From the article:

    "One of the comments swirling around the collective MMO universe is that the recently axed employees had to be delusional to not realize the end was near. That's completely unfair, and untrue."

    May be a correct statement in some cases, but not for those who worked at 38 Studios. Even for me, who sits on the other side of the pond, that one wasn't anywhere near a surprise, so if those employees didn't know the end was near, then they're too dumb to deserve better. Harsh, but true.

    Keep in mind that there are people that have been doing with for YEARS. That's all they know. You get into the industry because you love games, you have a talent for skills needed to make them, and you want to make a living doing it. Win-win right? Once you're in, you're stuck in a dangerous environment where everyone is banking on their title to be the "next big thing" so they can feed their kids.

     

    I'm not saying game staff always make great decisions about their careers, but when making games is all you know, making games is what you do.

  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    I definitely feel bad for those laid off.  Especially the ones getting contacted by the banks when 38 studios lied about selling their houses for them when they relocated.

     

    The company was totally mismanaged.  They probably paid and arm and a leg for Salvatore and McFarland.  Why they bought another game studio is beyond me.  Why R.I. loaned them so much money is the big question.

    A little research on the internet will correct your misataken assumptions and answer your questions.

  • MMOarQQMMOarQQ BoogalululuPosts: 636Member

    -edit-

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,200Member Uncommon

    I think the main issue is all the devs are making recently is the same boring shit we've played thry tons of times, and nothing actually NEW comes out anymore, of course your going to have issues when all your making is rehashes of the exact same game (EA i am looking at you, same for the fps series). To me gaming has gone down the shitter right to hell, with the only saving grace for it is being the indie devs that actually make stuff that feels new. I mean do we really need liek 20 diffrent call of duty games when everyone of them is pretty much the exact same shit in a slightly diffrent wrapper? Now I know its expensive to make a game, no doubts there, but look at some of the indie titles that were made by small teams of 2-4 people, Why don't these bigger named devs try using smaller dev teams and making a game? its less risk.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • hikariukhikariuk MaldonPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by Garkan

    I am curious about the being escorted off the premises thing, is that something unique to the software industry or is it standard practice for other employers?

    Personally I have been made redundant only once. I have little experiance in that regard but in my case I was not escorted out, noone else was either. I can see why it might be necessary if someone was sacked for bad conduct but not for redundancy.

     

    It's pretty common in industries where you have access to sensitive/critical material.  It's not a reflection of the individual, because they do it for everyone; the one time they don't do it, is the one time they get bit in the arse because of it.

    Slightly different set of circumstances, but In some companies you actually get all your access and passes taken away on the day you hand your notice in, even if you theoretically have a notice period.  You essentially get gardening leave for the length of your notice period.

    It probably happens where I work because we're a military contractor and also because you just handed over your security pass, so you can't actually open any of the doors to get out any more...

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  • MarLMarL akron, OHPosts: 606Member

    First I dont have a clue why these companies with no other completed mmos try to jump in and fight WoW...

    Second these companies need to start small get the core game working with functional core gameplay fluff should come later. (incase of lack of funding you could maybe soft launch with a version of the completed game minus some fluff)

    Finally I have no clue why they keep making copies of whats out, make something different look at the success of dayz that would have been a great soft launch of a mmo. 

     

    Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    People forget this is a business.  It is quite obvious that 38 studios was not run like a business.  400+ employees with only a single player game as an income source equals only one result.  All I can say is what were they thinking?   They were doomed before they started and I do not feel sorry for them.  Why should anyone feel sorry for someone that is doing something in a stupid manner.

    I do feel sorry for Sanya's company though, they just could not get funding, they were not piling on the employee's in this case.  Money is tight right now and unless you have a rich champion you are on the outside looking in.

     

    I had hoped you all would have figured this out by now....

     

    MMOs are not supposed to be a business. They were NOT originally designed to be businesses. They can not work as a conventional business no matter how you tweak them... That's most of the problem right there.

     

    Take the Capitalism mentality and get it out of MMO Gaming before MMO Gaming is ruined beyond repair. There is no large quarterly profit to be made here in this genre... nor was there ever supposed to be.

     

    The only Investors that should have anything to do with MMO Gaming should be the Nerds glued to their favorite MMO 80 hours as week... as a PLAYER. Investors like that don't bail out at the first sign a focus group is feeling a little under the weather. They get ingame and find out what the other Players think... the Devs, the Testers, the other Investors... that is how MMOs are supposed to work. No "small group" decisions being made in secret and all that nonsense.

     

    One day maybe some of you will figure this out. Maybe one day you will realize that the reason that so many MMOs fail is because the MMO Model was never designed to be a business in the first place. If you attempt to run a MMO as a conventional corporate business you have already handicapped it.

     

    This simple fact is not going to change. Any MMO worthy of the title won't be run as a business and any MMO run as a business won't be worth playing from a MMO gamers point of view.... hence there will never be the kind of profit in it the Investors are hoping for because the Players won't stand behind the product and support for very long!

     

    Some Corporate types know this very well, and have even gambled on this characteristic of MMOs... a few "MMOs" that have been released in the last year "capitalized" on taking advantage of this and the Investors made a tidy profit (but hurt the genre overall)... so don't be so quick to dimiss my comments here are uninformed or incorrect...

     

    This is really simple Folks. You all are not that stupid. Wake up.

     

    To the original Poster... you have my sympathies that yours and many others hard work and dream has been lost. My condolences.

     
     
     
     
  • SerpentarSerpentar Freedom, MOPosts: 246Member


    Originally posted by Gardavsshade
    Originally posted by Ozmodan People forget this is a business.  It is quite obvious that 38 studios was not run like a business.  400+ employees with only a single player game as an income source equals only one result.  All I can say is what were they thinking?   They were doomed before they started and I do not feel sorry for them.  Why should anyone feel sorry for someone that is doing something in a stupid manner. I do feel sorry for Sanya's company though, they just could not get funding, they were not piling on the employee's in this case.  Money is tight right now and unless you have a rich champion you are on the outside looking in.  
    I had hoped you all would have figured this out by now....

     

    MMOs are not supposed to be a business. They were NOT originally designed to be businesses. They can not work as a conventional business no matter how you tweak them... That's most of the problem right there.

     

    Take the Capitalism mentality and get it out of MMO Gaming before MMO Gaming is ruined beyond repair. There is no large quarterly profit to be made here in this genre... nor was there ever supposed to be.

     

    The only Investors that should have anything to do with MMO Gaming should be the Nerds glued to their favorite MMO 80 hours as week... as a PLAYER. Investors like that don't bail out at the first sign a focus group is feeling a little under the weather. They get ingame and find out what the other Players think... the Devs, the Testers, the other Investors... that is how MMOs are supposed to work. No "small group" decisions being made in secret and all that nonsense.

     

    One day maybe some of you will figure this out. Maybe one day you will realize that the reason that so many MMOs fail is because the MMO Model was never designed to be a business in the first place. If you attempt to run a MMO as a conventional corporate business you have already handicapped it.

     

    This simple fact is not going to change. Any MMO worthy of the title won't be run as a business and any MMO run as a business won't be worth playing from a MMO gamers point of view.... hence there will never be the kind of profit in it the Investors are hoping for because the Players won't stand behind the product and support for very long!

     

    Some Corporate types know this very well, and have even gambled on this characteristic of MMOs... a few "MMOs" that have been released in the last year "capitalized" on taking advantage of this and the Investors made a tidy profit (but hurt the genre overall)... so don't be so quick to dimiss my comments here are uninformed or incorrect...

     

    This is really simple Folks. You all are not that stupid. Wake up.

     

    To the original Poster... you have my sympathies that yours and many others hard work and dream has been lost. My condolences.        



    MMO's were a business from day one. A product was made and it was bought by the consumer. Then they paid a monthly fee for continued access to that service provided by that product's company. That is the basics of a business.

    If they weren't made that way, then they would all be free and possibly even open source to involve the community more. Ala Saga of Ryzom's move, after which it failed to operate as a business. Yes a good majority of the people in the game development field love their work, but at the end of the day they need some type of monetary compensation to make it through the world just like the business' they work for.

    Has it gotten out of hand with the corporate nonsense, yes I'll agree there. But don't project that the original makers of online games were some messiahs gifting us with there games for the low low price of 49.95 and 14.95 a month. Hell there are even some MUD games today that charge a monthly fee.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    deleted

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Serpentar

     


    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    Originally posted by Ozmodan People forget this is a business.  It is quite obvious that 38 studios was not run like a business.  400+ employees with only a single player game as an income source equals only one result.  All I can say is what were they thinking?   They were doomed before they started and I do not feel sorry for them.  Why should anyone feel sorry for someone that is doing something in a stupid manner. I do feel sorry for Sanya's company though, they just could not get funding, they were not piling on the employee's in this case.  Money is tight right now and unless you have a rich champion you are on the outside looking in.  


    MMO's were a business from day one. A product was made and it was bought by the consumer. Then they paid a monthly fee for continued access to that service provided by that product's company. That is the basics of a business.

    If they weren't made that way, then they would all be free and possibly even open source to involve the community more. Ala Saga of Ryzom's move, after which it failed to operate as a business. Yes a good majority of the people in the game development field love their work, but at the end of the day they need some type of monetary compensation to make it through the world just like the business' they work for.

    Has it gotten out of hand with the corporate nonsense, yes I'll agree there. But don't project that the original makers of online games were some messiahs gifting us with there games for the low low price of 49.95 and 14.95 a month. Hell there are even some MUD games today that charge a monthly fee.

    Both are very true.

    I do feel sorry for the employees of 38, because I'm sure that most of them did not see the writing on the wall. Suzie alludes to this a bit in her OP, but doesn't really go into details; however many newbies to game developement go into it with utopian promises (many of which are hammered into their heads during college), which just don't hold up in the real world. It's kind of disgusting how many bambies get slaughtered by this industry.

    However, from a management perspective, what 38 did was absolutely idiotic. They had some good ideas, but again, trying to dive in head-first (as a new studio) into an MMO is just asking for failure. The only studio I've seen which seems to do this correctly (albeit we will have to wait until launch to see) would be Anet. While they didn't try and make an MMO right out of the gate, they did lay the groundwork for one with the original game, and set aside some of the profit to fund the 2nd. 38 didn't do this at all. I think it was TB that stated this, but 'the two most expensive games you can make are an MMO and a 100+ hour RPG, and 38 studios tried to do both as their first project'.

    I really wish newer developers would start small, work on solid game mechanics first, before they dive into a game that demands an insane amount of content just to stay afloat. MMOs are definitely a business, and everything about them requires them to be. MMOs live or die by how healthy their playerbases are. Even an excellent MMO isn't the same with a small population. Because of this simple truth, MMOs have to make sure they keep that in mind, and are strucuring their games to hold on to a healthy amount of people for a prolonged period of time.

    Again, I feel bad for the employees, but I really hope situations like these open the eyes of more developers. We need more developers who know how to run a game production smoothly, manage their funds intelligently, and to stop trying to emulate the same game with the pipedream of achieving the same success. It doesn't work.

  • JenneroflokJenneroflok Dublin, CAPosts: 126Member
    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

     

     

    Someone earlier mentioned the consumer is to blame. I'd agree, but probably not for the reasons they intended (or maybe so, they didn't elaborate). The fact of the matter is that money corrupts people, and when you as a consumer continue feeding these leeches your money, you validate their actions and are telling them that everything they're doing is perfectly fine. You're not just validating lackluster games based just on the brand name, you're validating business practices and the people who decide them. Money is power, and they have your money because you give it to them, thus they have the power to keep fucking everyone over, both employee and consumer, as many times as they like.

     

    Without lube.

     

    Actually in Star Wars Galaxies the consumer did speak up loud and clear when the New Game Experience hit/.  But on the most part you are right.  The Consomer's are so in love with the brand they contunue playing and paying no mater how curropt the game alters from the original intent. 

     

    While I was in the Gaming Industry, it was Casino Games as a Surveillance Supervisor. I was told my First day that the EMPLOYEE'S were the casino's most valued assest and it was my job to prove the employee innocent when ever they were charged with something and if I could not prove them innocent then they most be guilty,  Not many Companies have that outlook, and I was lucky to work for them. With most companies, you can take a 5 gallon bucket of water, push you fist into it and pull it out, the time it takes for the water to fill back in, is the lenght of time the company will miss you once you are gone.

     

     

  • Belly1974Belly1974 RedcarPosts: 20Member

    Interesting read, very sad though...

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon

    Sanya, you are one of the best CM's I've run across in all my years playing these games (since UO), but you have a *bad* case of Stray Kitten Syndrome... ^^  I feel bad that you've now had three games shot out from under you (you deserve much more, from my perspective), but why do you continue to pick games that have *so* many things against them?

    I'm all too painfully familiar with closing time.  Its never fun, and those whose bad decisions resulted in it being necessary, almost never get the blame.  Not to mention all of the talented/experienced people who lose their jobs when companies fail.

    But thats all water under the bridge at this point. I wish you and the tech staff all the best in finding another game, and hope that it makes it to launch and beyond.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cymdai

    This topic made me think of Brad McQuaid immediately.

    Or David Bowman, or good Old Smed, to name but a few of the slime balls from the past.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Garkan

    I am curious about the being escorted off the premises thing, is that something unique to the software industry or is it standard practice for other employers?

    Personally I have been made redundant only once. I have little experiance in that regard but in my case I was not escorted out, noone else was either. I can see why it might be necessary if someone was sacked for bad conduct but not for redundancy.

    Thats SOP in many parts of the various software/technical industries (who have professional security).  Once the decision is made, the escort from security tells technical (security)  they are in place (out side), and the target instantly loses all connectivity (everything goes down). 

    The target is then told to collect their personal things and then they are escorted off site. While this is going on ALL of their pass words and access are revoked, and it may also include a general pass word switch for that entire section (depends on their role and what lead to their being terminated), and then their personal system is imaged, and then wiped and brought up fresh. Or they may just pull the storage (send it to technical security) and replace it.

    Thats pretty much the basic idea. It can get more or less involved, depending on the CSO.

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