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"Massive" sandbox crowd is a myth

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  • mmaizemmaize Hutto, TXPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    What the heck. Games are not 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. The distinction between them is based on a list of features. Each of those features may or may not be 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. It's all a scale between sandbox and theme park. You will not come to a consensus on Skyrim because it contains elements of both and is somewhere between 100% sandbox and 100% theme park.

    If you've played Farmville for any length of time because your girlfriend/wife plays it you will realize very quickly that you are playing the dev's game from start to finish.

    I have to agree with this part.

    Take one's favorite sandbox game and remove the ability to add a house. It doesn't suddenly become a themepark.

    It just becomes a sandbox game where you can't add a house.

    Bingo!

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by mmaize
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    What the heck. Games are not 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. The distinction between them is based on a list of features. Each of those features may or may not be 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. It's all a scale between sandbox and theme park. You will not come to a consensus on Skyrim because it contains elements of both and is somewhere between 100% sandbox and 100% theme park.

    If you've played Farmville for any length of time because your girlfriend/wife plays it you will realize very quickly that you are playing the dev's game from start to finish.

    I have to agree with this part.

    Take one's favorite sandbox game and remove the ability to add a house. It doesn't suddenly become a themepark.

    It just becomes a sandbox game where you can't add a house.

    Bingo!

    +2

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
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    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,751Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    What does any of this have to do with the thread's topic? Anything at all?
     

    Well once we nail down a definition of sandbox, we can understand what elements are required to make it a sandbox.

    Then we can understand how those elements mesh (or don't) with a game being MMO.

    Personally I think the perception that massive sandboxes could never work has more to do with every sandbox MMO being terrible, than with players really opposing the idea.

    Although I think a few specific sandbox features definitely don't have synergy with being in an MMO. And these are often the best sandbox features players love, like reshaping terrain or building things wherever they want.  These features are fantastic in a singleplayer or small-scale multiplayer environment, but they have a hard time fitting into a MMO environment.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,751Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by mmaize
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    What the heck. Games are not 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. The distinction between them is based on a list of features. Each of those features may or may not be 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. It's all a scale between sandbox and theme park. You will not come to a consensus on Skyrim because it contains elements of both and is somewhere between 100% sandbox and 100% theme park.

    If you've played Farmville for any length of time because your girlfriend/wife plays it you will realize very quickly that you are playing the dev's game from start to finish.

    I have to agree with this part.

    Take one's favorite sandbox game and remove the ability to add a house. It doesn't suddenly become a themepark.

    It just becomes a sandbox game where you can't add a house.

    Bingo!

    +2

    +3

    (given that my posts basically said the same thing throughout this thread :P  It's a game's core gameplay (what you do most of the time) which determines whether it's considered themepark or sandbox.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member Common

    CCCCCCcccoombooooooo breaker!

     

     

    I'm out of popcorn guys. See ya Monday. I expect these ruts to be at least a foot wider and two feet deeper when I return.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • TdogSkalTdogSkal Livonia, MIPosts: 1,244Member

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    Sooner or Later

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    What does any of this have to do with the thread's topic? Anything at all?

    What the heck. Games are not 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. The distinction between them is based on a list of features. Each of those features may or may not be 100% sandbox or 100% theme park. It's all a scale between sandbox and theme park. You will not come to a consensus on Skyrim because it contains elements of both and is somewhere between 100% sandbox and 100% theme park.

    If you've played Farmville for any length of time because your girlfriend/wife plays it you will realize very quickly that you are playing the dev's game from start to finish.

     Yep, the thread has been broken down to a bunch of people arguing others are wrong based on their personal opinions of what they think sandbox means while still arguing semantics.

    except that's where this thread is bound to end up because of it's initial premise.

    the premise is "the massive sandbox crowd is a myth".

    Well, then during the course of conversation it has to be established what exactly is the sandbox crowd? Maybe it's not small or maybe it's miniscule?

    Part of finding out what who is in that crowd is figuring out what games they play. Now comes the argument that x is a sandbox and y isn't.

    If it's determined that the sandbox crowd spans all sorts of sandbox games then it might be large. If being a "sandboxer"only means that they only acknowledge 5 games as true sandbox games then indeed the group may be small.

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Ikonoclastia
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by theJexster

    Skyrim sales, myth.

    Skyrim is a themepark.  It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer.  The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)

    Open world doesn't make something a sandbox.  Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.  

     Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...

    See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.

    I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...

    Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game.  A sandbox game is a game in which...

     it doesnt matter what your opinion of sandbox games is...I am replying to someone who is giving HIS definition of it which I refuted directly. Deal...

     

    Take it to private messages if you want a private converstation.  You made what I believe is an incorrect statement about a game I have played, on a forum of which I am a member.  Deal...

     You took your PERSONAL opinion of what a sandbox game is to refute something said to someone ELSES OPINION of what a sandbox game is.

    If you want to become part of a conversation...read it and stay in context. Deal...

    It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion of a sandbox is. The simple fact is if you type in the word  "sandbox" in Google, both TES games and GTA games all come up (Eve too). You can find it in developer blogs, wikis, marketing hype, reviews....... everywhere. This is society's "accepted" definition of what a sandbox is. The word itself can mean something different to you, but to the masses, this is what it is. Whether you like it or agree with it or not doesn't really matter. To argue about it is pointless.

  • GreenishBlueGreenishBlue Baltimore, MDPosts: 263Member

    sandbox crowd in Mortal Online >>> clicky

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jtcgs
     

    except that's where this thread is bound to end up because of it's initial premise.

    the premise is "the massive sandbox crowd is a myth".

    Well, then during the course of conversation it has to be established what exactly is the sandbox crowd? Maybe it's not small or maybe it's miniscule?

    Part of finding out what who is in that crowd is figuring out what games they play. Now comes the argument that x is a sandbox and y isn't.

    If it's determined that the sandbox crowd spans all sorts of sandbox games then it might be large. If being a "sandboxer"only means that they only acknowledge 5 games as true sandbox games then indeed the group may be small.

    Should we start talking about the differences between a virtual world and a sandbox next? Or should we begin another thread entirely? image

    Mods have certainly been gracious to let this go so far from the original topic although I don't mind at all.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TdogSkalTdogSkal Livonia, MIPosts: 1,244Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Sooner or Later

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Well actually no.  You cant' do anything you want.  If you want something in the game, the devs have to code it on.  If the devs dont' want to code it in, you dont' get it. 

    There are always limits - just like an actual sandbox.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Probably what Venge said.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jtcgs
     

    except that's where this thread is bound to end up because of it's initial premise.

    the premise is "the massive sandbox crowd is a myth".

    Well, then during the course of conversation it has to be established what exactly is the sandbox crowd? Maybe it's not small or maybe it's miniscule?

    Part of finding out what who is in that crowd is figuring out what games they play. Now comes the argument that x is a sandbox and y isn't.

    If it's determined that the sandbox crowd spans all sorts of sandbox games then it might be large. If being a "sandboxer"only means that they only acknowledge 5 games as true sandbox games then indeed the group may be small.

    Should we start talking about the differences between a virtual world and a sandbox next? Or should we begin another thread entirely? image

    Mods have certainly been gracious to let this go so far from the original topic although I don't mind at all.

    Actually why not?

    Are the playes who want to play in a virtual world different from the players who want to play in a sandbox?

    if a virtual world and a  sandbox aren't one in the same do the "sandboxers" realize this? do they agree?

    And if they are completely different and those who only want to play sandbox games were to hypothetically agree then does the group suddenly become even smaller?

    If one is to say that the hue size of the sandbox crowd is a myth then one kind of needs to determine who exatctly the sandbox crowd really are.

  • TdogSkalTdogSkal Livonia, MIPosts: 1,244Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Well actually no.  You cant' do anything you want.  If you want something in the game, the devs have to code it on.  If the devs dont' want to code it in, you dont' get it. 

    There are always limits - just like an actual sandbox.

    Well Actually yes as the Devs will code in almost anything into the game for the players.  Just check the games website out. 

    Sooner or Later

  • mmaizemmaize Hutto, TXPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jtcgs
     

    except that's where this thread is bound to end up because of it's initial premise.

    the premise is "the massive sandbox crowd is a myth".

    Well, then during the course of conversation it has to be established what exactly is the sandbox crowd? Maybe it's not small or maybe it's miniscule?

    Part of finding out what who is in that crowd is figuring out what games they play. Now comes the argument that x is a sandbox and y isn't.

    If it's determined that the sandbox crowd spans all sorts of sandbox games then it might be large. If being a "sandboxer"only means that they only acknowledge 5 games as true sandbox games then indeed the group may be small.

    Should we start talking about the differences between a virtual world and a sandbox next? Or should we begin another thread entirely? image

    Mods have certainly been gracious to let this go so far from the original topic although I don't mind at all.


    I'm going to assume that the reason for this is because one first has to define what a "sandbox" is before determining a crowd for one.  That being said, Google or Bing 'sandbox games' and see which games come up in almost every top 10 list.  Skyrim is one of them.

    So point is you can sit here and define what is sandbox and what isn't from your own personal perspectives all day.  Not going to change what's already been accepted as the industry standard or definition.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Well actually no.  You cant' do anything you want.  If you want something in the game, the devs have to code it on.  If the devs dont' want to code it in, you dont' get it. 

    There are always limits - just like an actual sandbox.

    Well Actually yes as the Devs will code in almost anything into the game for the players.  Just check the games website out. 

    So you agree with me.  Almost is not anything.  That is the limit.

    @mmaize.  The industry has not accepted that Skyrim is a sandbox, many yes, but not all, possibly a majority though.  I did what you suggested and did a search on "Is Skyrim a sandbox" and the 2nd link stated it wasn't.  So there is no univeral acceptance yet.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Well actually no.  You cant' do anything you want.  If you want something in the game, the devs have to code it on.  If the devs dont' want to code it in, you dont' get it. 

    There are always limits - just like an actual sandbox.

    Well Actually yes as the Devs will code in almost anything into the game for the players.  Just check the games website out. 

    Except that players can't do anything they want. they need to peitiion to add it into the game and wait until it is coded and tested and then it's added.

    But let's, for argument's sake, say you are correct. that in this game one can do anything they want whenverver they want as long as some time has gone by to add it into the game.

    one point doesn't equal a line. This would then be the only game I know where this would be true. Or, the only mmo I know where this would be true.

    IN which case how can an argument be made where only one game is in existence that supports the true mmo sandbox ideal? Because if this game is the only game that is a true mmo sandbox then how many players play it? That number would then be the answer to the thread.

  • TdogSkalTdogSkal Livonia, MIPosts: 1,244Member

    VengeSunsoar - I agree that most is not all but that is a true sandbox.

    Also Skyrim is not a Sandbox because no matter how many times you play through it, you will still do the same main story line which makes it linar.  It does have Sandbox elements but it is not a true sandbox.

    Also alot of games have Sandbox elements but are not true Sandboxes.

    I agree that EvE is one of the cloest of all the MMORPGs to a true sandbox but it is not.

    Sooner or Later

  • TdogSkalTdogSkal Livonia, MIPosts: 1,244Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TdogSkal
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    EvE is not a true Sandbox, it has Sandbox elements.

    You are still restricted on what you can do in EvE based what the developers allow you to do.

    Try fitting guns on a mining ship.

    Try fitting certain mods on certain ships

    Try to kill a planet.

    Try to remove a warp gate.

    Try to remove a station in High Sec (not a POS)

    EvE has restrictions put in place by the developers and you are playing the game they allow you to play, sure you have alot more freedom to choose how you want to play but you are still limited by what the game designs built.

    ok fine, I also disagree with this.

    having freedom to do whatever one wants doesn't constitute a sandbox. If you want to/have to be literal then let's go there...

    In a real sandbox (with sand) any structure you make is subject to collapsing at a moment's notice. You are also limited to how large/high you can build due to the properties of sand. There is no "power" in a sandbox so no lights or motors or "whatever".

    You have limited space in a sandbox. you can only go "so deep" in a sandbox.

    allowing players to do whatever they want whatever they want is just bad design. This goes back to desing itself. Throwing every idea that you can conceive into a game pretty much makes a mess. Giving restrictions and then allowing participants to work within those restrictions is more freeing because it allows for a "spine" of ideas from which to work from.

     

    Your wrong.

    Example - Entropia Universe.  That is a Sandbox.  A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want.  Zero restrictions.  That is a Sandbox.  EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.

    Well actually no.  You cant' do anything you want.  If you want something in the game, the devs have to code it on.  If the devs dont' want to code it in, you dont' get it. 

    There are always limits - just like an actual sandbox.

    Well Actually yes as the Devs will code in almost anything into the game for the players.  Just check the games website out. 

    Except that players can't do anything they want. they need to peitiion to add it into the game and wait until it is coded and tested and then it's added.

    But let's, for argument's sake, say you are correct. that in this game one can do anything they want whenverver they want as long as some time has gone by to add it into the game.

    one point doesn't equal a line. This would then be the only game I know where this would be true. Or, the only mmo I know where this would be true.

    IN which case how can an argument be made where only one game is in existence that supports the true mmo sandbox ideal? Because if this game is the only game that is a true mmo sandbox then how many players play it? That number would then be the answer to the thread.

    The thing is most players do not want a true sandbox even if they say they do because most players have never played a true sandbox game, they have played hybrids and think they are Sandbox games.

    Same reason some people keep calling EvE a sandbox game, it is very close but it is not a true sandbox.

    We have a lot of MMOs are that have a ton of Sandbox Elements but nothing that is a true sandbox.

    Ever played any of the X space games like X3: Terran Conflict?  I think that is the closest I have ever seen to a true sandbox in a video game. 

    Sooner or Later

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TdogSkal

    VengeSunsoar - I agree that most is not all but that is a true sandbox.

    Also Skyrim is not a Sandbox because no matter how many times you play through it, you will still do the same main story line which makes it linar.  It does have Sandbox elements but it is not a true sandbox.

    Also alot of games have Sandbox elements but are not true Sandboxes.

    I agree that EvE is one of the cloest of all the MMORPGs to a true sandbox but it is not.

    I"m not sure i agree with your skyrim assessment.

    for intance, my roommate doesn't do most of the quests adn really is more interested in exploring, vanquishing enemies and selling their pants to vendors. He only did the main quest once because he wanted to see some new content and I badgered him to do the main quest.

    But as far as any quests he pretty much just sticks to minor quests.

    He plays the game completely on his terms.

    I've seen others use the elderscrolls games more as a sandbox/toy. collecting things or experimenting with the physics or luring npc's to gruesome deaths.

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by mmaize
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by jtcgs
     

    except that's where this thread is bound to end up because of it's initial premise.

    the premise is "the massive sandbox crowd is a myth".

    Well, then during the course of conversation it has to be established what exactly is the sandbox crowd? Maybe it's not small or maybe it's miniscule?

    Part of finding out what who is in that crowd is figuring out what games they play. Now comes the argument that x is a sandbox and y isn't.

    If it's determined that the sandbox crowd spans all sorts of sandbox games then it might be large. If being a "sandboxer"only means that they only acknowledge 5 games as true sandbox games then indeed the group may be small.

    Should we start talking about the differences between a virtual world and a sandbox next? Or should we begin another thread entirely? image

    Mods have certainly been gracious to let this go so far from the original topic although I don't mind at all.


    I'm going to assume that the reason for this is because one first has to define what a "sandbox" is before determining a crowd for one.  That being said, Google or Bing 'sandbox games' and see which games come up in almost every top 10 list.  Skyrim is one of them.

    So point is you can sit here and define what is sandbox and what isn't from your own personal perspectives all day.  Not going to change what's already been accepted as the industry standard or definition.

    QFT! I wouldn't even waste my breath if I were you. These people are the Cliff Clavins of this site. They would argue with you that the sky really isn't blue and go off on some technical explanation as to it being a reflection of the ocean. The rest of the world just wants to say, "Bro...it's blue," and not worry about such trivial crap. They can fight it all they want, but the industry and society already have an accepted definition.

  • silent-jonessilent-jones FarbeyondPosts: 28Member

    A real sandbox which could be considered a virtual world or a real life simulation would have to be able to change and grow forever, otherwise the limited complexity would lead to bordom sooner or later.  In order to create such a game of neverending change  and growth the current ways of updating a game needs to be changed completley. Such a game have to be made of modules which can be easly replaced by newer versions. The graphics must be a seperate module, the landscape, the movement, the ways to interact and so on. To create such a game woud require a totaly new way of game design, which currently simply isnt available, especially not in the heads of the producing companies. But I am 100% sure, one day it will come. One day someone will come and realize the potiental to make money with such a game and invests a billion dollars to realize it.

  • 5thofFikus5thofFikus Miami, NVPosts: 50Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    And for about the 1,000 time on these forums, with you...

    • Sandbox = freedom
    • Themepark = directed game play
     

    Doesn't it concern you that your terms and definitions have nothing to do with one another?

    In a real-world themepark there is no direction enforced upon visitors, and in fact you're totally free to ride whatever rides you want (exactly like Skyrim.)

    The lack of other people doesnt make skyrim a themepark. No matter how much you wish. Add 10 people and its sandbox would shine and the themepark fails because there are no rides in skyrim. There is only the world, and the role playing game.

    Skyrim is a VW game. thats how it works and why it's so successful. Single player or multiplayer. Immersion is king and VW's are the king of immersion.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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