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SWTOR is dead, sleeping with the rest of the lot

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  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    Lets face it, TOR is a gonner, sleeping with his fail wow clone friends.

    Sure if you like the game and not bored or whatever is posted on these boards, good for you but the reality is, the game is dying really fast.

    Sad really , Bioware is part of EA, and EA just want fastfood and move to the next project.

     

     

     

    Alas, I tend to agree. *le sigh*

     

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • ZaltarkZaltark Lockhart, TXPosts: 421Member

    Well another preordered game has died. Maybe I should stop pre-ordering stuff. Too late for GW2, already preordered that lol. But yeah. I had so much hope for this game. It really was fun ~1-20 levels. Then reality set in. This was No MMO.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member

    While I agree that TOR is not what I or many had hoped for, and it is obvious that population fell in a noticable way, I cannot say it is dead. If it's population stababizes where it is (and could still stand to lose a few more), it will still be the #2 western mmo. It still has a population that outshines everything but WoW. And while I hoped for more, and many others did too - as the dust settles, we can see it has still made a large impact on the gaming world, for a lot of people.

  • TalonsWingTalonsWing Elizabeth, NJPosts: 33Member

    Actually, having had some distance from the game, it is clear to me really that MMOs only mean two things to players:  economy and combat.

    Well, the crafting and player economy in SWTOR was awful and a pale shadow from SWG.  Not that they attempted to emulate that, but if you have a good thing to emulate why not do it?

    Clearly PvP is not a real feature of the game.  Warzones are getting sillier with each iteration and obviously Bioware had no better solution to mass combat than Galaxies did.

    In the end, the problem is as with all other MMOs: end game.  How odd that you fly through games to get to the last level possible because that is where all the supposed content is, and yet the content really is stale.

    I wonder if any new MMO will figure out the way to retain players.

    Toward the end of Galaxies, when the Force Ranking System was put in it seemed like a fantastic way to keep players interested.  Your jedi progressed through combat to higher levels of power beating players (as I recall).  Unfortunately it was so prone to exploits it became worthless.  Still that system had promise, and in a game where everyone becomes a Sith Lord (or variant thereof) it could have been interesting to create a pvp system where players gained strength with the force by defeating other players (in single combat or otherwise) and lost strength proportionately when defeated (to a max loss of something).

    For me, I am done with MMOs until something revolutionary (not evolutionary comes).  I fear I will be waiting a long long time in a galaxy far far away.

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by Trol1

    Always love/laugh reading MosesZD's posting, they are just to /facepalm-y

    Okay Moses,

    you know that even today, almost 14 years after its release, BioWare's classic Baldur's Gate is selling quite well thru gog.com?

    And only about 5 years ago was still sold as a re-released boxed game?

    (I'm sure you'll love to dig up the numbers of how many units were sold/are sold on average per year.)

    But the thing is that by your twisted "logic" the continuing success of BG must also mean that SWTOR can't fail.

    Afterall comparing things like graphics and groupability alone SWTOR is by far better than BG.

    And frankly, having played SWTOR in beta and release and both GW2 and TSW in beta, I have to say that GW2 felt more mediocre than many other MMOs I've played in the last couple of years.

    With the TSW beta, despite the very low framerate I had, I still got the feel of a good spooky spooks story, and with SWTOR I had fun thru the complete beta and a very large chunk of the time after launch.

    (If you want I can now start listing MMOs and how they stand on the "mediocre" scale when compared to GW2 but I think for everybody's sake I'll skip)

    But with GW2, the fact that a game that is nothing but a loose gathering of mostly rather badly done versions of features picked from other games (where these features we done better) can be considered by MMO gamers to be the next evolutionary step, heck, that has actually destroyed my hope that MMO gamer will any time soon start maturing into something that is not just playing for the quick kick.

    Seriously Moses, this is not Comedy Central, as entertaining as your postings are, maybe making statements that actually made sense would help your cause?

    Really?

    What is so "medicore" about GW2?

    And cut the word count, nobody is going to read  through 500121951 words if it can be summed in 2 sentences.

    And the only thing you confirmed - good games sell even after 7-14 years.

    And yah, i still play trough BG 1/2 and Fallout 1/2 once-ish a year, and yah, they still beat the crap out of anything that releases today. Well, maybe not some indie games.

    And yah, you can still buy Fallout 1/2 through Steam. 14 years...

    Well, you should be able to answer your own question, shouldn't ya?

    me·di·o·cre

    adjective

    • Of only moderate quality; not very good

    "And yah, i still play trough BG 1/2 and Fallout 1/2 once-ish a year, and yah, they still beat the crap out of anything that releases today. Well, maybe not some indie games."

    Or are you calling yourself a liar?

    p.s.: oh, and thanks for counting the words... not reading them but counting them is a good start ;-)

  • vkraidenvkraiden Barra VelhaPosts: 2Member

    I'm currently playing swtor. But my guild friends are moving game. Some returned to play Eve Online, and others are in diablo 3. I have paid for two months yet, but I do not know how long I'll keep playing.

  • Trol1Trol1 Kissimmee, FLPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by TalonsWing

    Actually, having had some distance from the game, it is clear to me really that MMOs only mean two things to players:  economy and combat.

    Well, the crafting and player economy in SWTOR was awful and a pale shadow from SWG.  Not that they attempted to emulate that, but if you have a good thing to emulate why not do it?

    Clearly PvP is not a real feature of the game.  Warzones are getting sillier with each iteration and obviously Bioware had no better solution to mass combat than Galaxies did.

    In the end, the problem is as with all other MMOs: end game.  How odd that you fly through games to get to the last level possible because that is where all the supposed content is, and yet the content really is stale.

    I wonder if any new MMO will figure out the way to retain players.

    Toward the end of Galaxies, when the Force Ranking System was put in it seemed like a fantastic way to keep players interested.  Your jedi progressed through combat to higher levels of power beating players (as I recall).  Unfortunately it was so prone to exploits it became worthless.  Still that system had promise, and in a game where everyone becomes a Sith Lord (or variant thereof) it could have been interesting to create a pvp system where players gained strength with the force by defeating other players (in single combat or otherwise) and lost strength proportionately when defeated (to a max loss of something).

    For me, I am done with MMOs until something revolutionary (not evolutionary comes).  I fear I will be waiting a long long time in a galaxy far far away.

    Talon, I feel your point!

    Now, here is a question for you: given the low-/mid-level content (maybe even "pre-endgame high-level" content SWTOR had at release, and assuming that character level progression speed had been cut down to 10% of the current, at least in the lvl10+ range - in short: it takes you much, much longer to level up - how would you see SWTOR then?

  • TalonsWingTalonsWing Elizabeth, NJPosts: 33Member

    A very interesting question Trol.  I find it funny that game developers embrace the standard of getting to end game asap.  It is like a race that no one really should be runnng at all.

    Personally speaking SWTOR is one of the best single player games I have ever played.  Bar none.  I found many of the stories extremely interesting.

    I think the lesson that should have been learned while SWTOR was in development is to rethink the entire concept of leveling and progression.  I keep wondering what a game might be like if it was more like Skyrim, where you could mix and match any skills and your continued use of them led to greater levels and talent points.  Obviously you'd need to redo the system so that you wouldnt create overpowered situations.  But the "Raid or Die" MMOs are obsessed with leveling and getting to end game content when the burn out factor is so high.

    Long winded way of saying that yes it might have been an entirely different game if the leveling progression were slowed.  But that really isnt the issue.  I think the concept of leveling progression needs to be rethought because getting to 50 and then gearing up is such old hat and leads to all the problems we all know in MMO games.

    The real question that Bioware didnt come up with a good answer to is this:  What makes players stay in game for more than leveling?  The PvP was terrible and an afterthought.  Legacy was a great idea and poorly implemented.  Raiding is passe (at least for me) and quite frankly I think that needs to be rethought as well.  

    But perhaps it is just that I have played too many MMOs and I am jaded.  As said before, something radical would really have to come down the pike.  Perhaps where leveling was open ended (no caps), that players couldnt exploit (because once you got to a certain level you were barred from camping in a lower zone) and where pvp was really a direct focus with world objectives.  I dont know if Guild Wars 2 is that kind of game.  I'm probably going to sit out MMOs for a while now. 

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by TalonsWing

    A very interesting question Trol.  I find it funny that game developers embrace the standard of getting to end game asap.  It is like a race that no one really should be runnng at all.

    Personally speaking SWTOR is one of the best single player games I have ever played.  Bar none.  I found many of the stories extremely interesting.

    I think the lesson that should have been learned while SWTOR was in development is to rethink the entire concept of leveling and progression.  I keep wondering what a game might be like if it was more like Skyrim, where you could mix and match any skills and your continued use of them led to greater levels and talent points.  Obviously you'd need to redo the system so that you wouldnt create overpowered situations.  But the "Raid or Die" MMOs are obsessed with leveling and getting to end game content when the burn out factor is so high.

    Long winded way of saying that yes it might have been an entirely different game if the leveling progression were slowed.  But that really isnt the issue.  I think the concept of leveling progression needs to be rethought because getting to 50 and then gearing up is such old hat and leads to all the problems we all know in MMO games.

    The real question that Bioware didnt come up with a good answer to is this:  What makes players stay in game for more than leveling?  The PvP was terrible and an afterthought.  Legacy was a great idea and poorly implemented.  Raiding is passe (at least for me) and quite frankly I think that needs to be rethought as well.  

    But perhaps it is just that I have played too many MMOs and I am jaded.  As said before, something radical would really have to come down the pike.  Perhaps where leveling was open ended (no caps), that players couldnt exploit (because once you got to a certain level you were barred from camping in a lower zone) and where pvp was really a direct focus with world objectives.  I dont know if Guild Wars 2 is that kind of game.  I'm probably going to sit out MMOs for a while now.

    This is a well written and thoughtful post. Most MMOs have this problem because they give so little thought to what players do once they hit level cap.  I am very surprised that after the huge success of Skyrem that the Elder Scrolls Online is going down the same old themepark road. I understood why Bioware went the route they did because the KOTOR series was always linear, but the Elder Scrolls series is much more open ended. 

    I will say that a lot of forum posters seem to encourage this because in both STO and TOR pre-launch I would get laughed off the boards for any suggestion that went against the WOW formula: No to player run economies, no to more than two factions, no to weapon and armour choice, no to player bounties etc.etc.etc.,

    I thought TOR had the right idea with Ilum, but they need to rework it. I enjoy the PVP in warzones, but after while I want to go to a bigger area with my Assasin and do surprise hits. 

     

     

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • HaukenHauken Mo I RanaPosts: 649Member

    Canceled my subscription today. I was on the 180 day subscription plan. It said i had 48 days left to play. Well i havnt played for the last 100 days and i will not sign in again for the remaining time of my sub. This was my last theme park MMO. Never again will i try the theme park genre.

    This game never delivered....

    Hauken Stormchaser
    I want pre-CU back
    Station.com : We got your game
    Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!

  • RockhideRockhide Chicagoland, ILPosts: 155Member

    I find it amusing that the discussion has become about how leveling in TOR is too fast when one of the single biggest complaints about MMOs is that leveling in general is slow, boring, and overall just not fun.

     

    While in principle I believe that faster leveling in MMOs exposes insufficient endgame content, many people were getting bored with leveling as it was.  Making them spend more time on the available, "lifeless" planets for a given level range is not an adequate solution IMO.

     

    Besides that, the faster levelling made a lot of already identifiable problems from becoming a lot worse.  More time spent leveling is more time wasted traveling.  The questing layout was the dreaded quest-hub "octopus" that had you fighting in and then back out of multiple areas to unlock the quest that sent you to the next intended quest hub.  Does anyone really want to spend more time doing that?  Slower leveling would have required a massive reworking of the "pattern" of quests to make it more bearable, not just on each planet but between planets as well.  Faster leveling means items are replaced faster which means it becomes less essential to run heroic quests and flashpoints ... thank goodness becuase finding a group was difficult enough for many people.  It also means that using crafted gear while leveling -- something that was once part of the leveling experience in older MMOs -- was unnecessary.  That helped justify their decision to make crafting a completely non-essential part of the game.

     

    Don't get me wrong... I'm a big proponent of a lengthy leveling experience.  But there's no way the current TOR could have supported it.  Not with the current design choices in other areas of the game. 

     

    Actually, from another perspective -- the one where TOR is a collection of single-player stories about the conflict witnessed from different viewpoints -- the MMO-style (40+ levels) leveling concept arguably hurt the game in that it created a more "gated" and guided story than Bioware had been successful with in the past.  That in turn hurts replayability in a game that could have been focused on having the player experience each side of the story rather than leveling each of the character classes (to the extent that there could be a distinction between the two).

     

    Too traditionally single-player RPG for an MMO... too traditionally MMO for a single-player RPG.  That is TOR... IMO.

  • TalonsWingTalonsWing Elizabeth, NJPosts: 33Member

    Very good points Rockhide.

    I just find it funny that you level to 50 as a Sith, becoming in the case of a Warrior or Inquisitor a member of the Sith Council at the end and then.... 

    You end up on a space station hanging around with 10,000 other Sith Lords.

    Leaving aside how immersion breaking that is where the cut-scene stories suggest there are only about 5 or 6 other members of the council, what is there to do?  You cant fight with other Sith Lords so you end up hanging around playing war games?  Do pointless instances that really dont advance your personal story?  Well maybe that works for some, but not me in any case.

    In short, I just wonder what Bioware thought end game would be like.  Unless massive content floods the system, you have a few choices.  Crafting (boring as hell given the absence of a robust system)  PvP (non-existent except wargames, and there the Republic/Empire imalance really killed it for many players) and PvE.

    I would hope that when developers design MMOs they think about end game FIRST.  Not last.  So who is going to stick around for more Wargames when there really isnt any advancement to speak of?

    I think we need to scrap the notion of leveling because of the psychological effect it has on the player.  I am 50 and told I am a Sith Lord therefore my character has advanced as far as he or she can go.  THat is silly.

    Imagine if by the time you hit 50, you had only progressed to Dark ONE.  And Dark Two required you to undertake a series of quests, craft a brand new saber, kill specific NPCs.  Something.  And imagine if Dark Two provided like a 10-15% increase in armor or force power or something.

    In short, give the players something to really sink their teeth into.  A long term project or goal.  Perhaps you would have to beat a certain number of Jedi OR Sith to get there.  Perhaps you could challenge under Sith to one on one combat and depending on their Dark rank they had to accept.

    THese are just stream of consciousness of course.  The bottom line is that Bioware knew ahead of time I am sure that end game was extremely weak for the casual player.  And they are leaving in a slow, but steady progression.

  • mmaizemmaize Hutto, TXPosts: 274Member
    Originally posted by TalonsWing

    Very good points Rockhide.

    I just find it funny that you level to 50 as a Sith, becoming in the case of a Warrior or Inquisitor a member of the Sith Council at the end and then.... 

    You end up on a space station hanging around with 10,000 other Sith Lords.

    Leaving aside how immersion breaking that is where the cut-scene stories suggest there are only about 5 or 6 other members of the council, what is there to do?  You cant fight with other Sith Lords so you end up hanging around playing war games?  Do pointless instances that really dont advance your personal story?  Well maybe that works for some, but not me in any case.

    In short, I just wonder what Bioware thought end game would be like.  Unless massive content floods the system, you have a few choices.  Crafting (boring as hell given the absence of a robust system)  PvP (non-existent except wargames, and there the Republic/Empire imalance really killed it for many players) and PvE.

    I would hope that when developers design MMOs they think about end game FIRST.  Not last.  So who is going to stick around for more Wargames when there really isnt any advancement to speak of?

    I think we need to scrap the notion of leveling because of the psychological effect it has on the player.  I am 50 and told I am a Sith Lord therefore my character has advanced as far as he or she can go.  THat is silly.

    Imagine if by the time you hit 50, you had only progressed to Dark ONE.  And Dark Two required you to undertake a series of quests, craft a brand new saber, kill specific NPCs.  Something.  And imagine if Dark Two provided like a 10-15% increase in armor or force power or something.

    In short, give the players something to really sink their teeth into.  A long term project or goal.  Perhaps you would have to beat a certain number of Jedi OR Sith to get there.  Perhaps you could challenge under Sith to one on one combat and depending on their Dark rank they had to accept.

    THese are just stream of consciousness of course.  The bottom line is that Bioware knew ahead of time I am sure that end game was extremely weak for the casual player.  And they are leaving in a slow, but steady progression.


    The points made above are completely on point and are like a stab in the eye to what this game was supposed to be about.  They nearly over promoted how epic this game was suppose to make your character feel from start to finish....yeah not so much when standing next to the other 40 Jedi Knights who also defeated the emporer.  This game should not have been an MMO, not in terms of the finished product that it is now. In it's current form it would have been better as a multiplayer game something along the lines of Diablo.   Is it possible that it could have been a great MMO?  Sure but that didn't happen.

  • Sora2810Sora2810 New Columbia, PAPosts: 567Member
    Originally posted by eycel

    What I dont understand is where the hell was all the outrage in all the beta and CB.  If the game was this  bad I wouldnt care about any NDA, I would tell them to stick it and tell eveyone what the hell was actually going on.

    Bioware was too focused on control. They didn't let dedicated TOR fanboys or even MMO gamers in as testers. They didn't want to risk the leak of any info. Ultimately, it was their downfall. If the game had more testing done, it might have been pushed back a few more months into a better shaping game.

    Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
    Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  • styles74styles74 Bloomfield Hills, MIPosts: 222Member
    Originally posted by Bardus
    Originally posted by DanaDark

    I love how people's "feelings" on the state of a game means more to them than any facts ever will. 

    It is sort of like religion... which is funny, because scientifically, people's brains do not act the same when discussing deeply held beliefs. They are opposed to factual data and instead go on the defensive any time their belief is challanged, never thinking critically.

    I rather have my beliefs and carry hope than no belief and no hope. Makes life a little easier to bare.

    -Just saying

    You live your life bare? 

    I hope live in a nudist colony.

     

     

    _________________________
    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.

    - John Wooden

  • XxGSxXXxGSxX Henderson, TNPosts: 2Member

    The 124+ servers were bottlenecked at launch to force players to spread out.  Even if everyone kept playing it would apear like the game was dead as server bandwidth upgraded.  This was a great idea, however.  The last year of development was dreadful with millions of people being chased away.  It was a flaming troll fest on top of the uberhype.

     

    They knew the game was going to flop from beta an public playtests.  So the question was how much is it going to flop because at this point it is beyond control, and we are out of money.  It's making sure it didn't flop because of the lack of bandwidth or servers.  Hence the 124+ server problem above.  Though it remains as a major issue still.

     

    This month they add a class based group finding system.  I didn't bother to find out what else was in the patch.  Now why would something like this be overlooked in development, along with a very poor working chatbox system?  Single player an non-forced grouping killed this game.  They are going to fix it an make it better, but it's too late.

     

    It's a good game and it can be a fun game even.  It's not the game we wanted, and it's not the game they wanted to build.  The people that remain are only there because there currently isn't anything else.  If given a choice they will indeed leave.  Bioware will attempt to keep as many as possible along with bringing more in, no doubt.

     

    Dead by design,

     

    XxGSxX

  • bakabrödbakabröd lysekilPosts: 129Member

    nah its not dead. its sleeping.

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