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Blame it on Guild Wars 2/Blizzard's greed.

24

Comments

  • 100PERCENT100PERCENT Sacramento, CAPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by Corehaven

    Guys give the OP a break.  He's describing the kind of stuff that does literally go on in the industry all the time.  This we know. 

     

    So is it really THAT far out there?  Id say no.  I cant say I agree with it or think thats really what happened.  Its a fair theory.  I dont find it unlikely nor do I find it likely.  I just find it possible.  He's thought it out and he could very well be right on some points (of that I have no doubt) or even all or most of them. 

     

    You guys have to admit that much.  Its not so far out there we need to start talking about tin foil hats here. 

     

    There are things regarding D3 that scream of either incompetence or instead being rushed.  Such as the launch problems, as well as no PVP in the game.  You can say PVP doesnt matter to you and thats fine.  But they will add it.  And if they'll add it later then why wasnt it there in the first place?  Going back to the launch problems, this is Blizzard we're talking about here.  They should know how to run servers better than they have.  Like I said, its either incompetence which I kind of doubt, or it was being rushed.  Why was it being rushed? 

     

    Could be any number of reasons.  But avoiding the GW2 launch is just as reasonable a theory as any otheres.  There might have even been other reasons to go along with it, or GW2 might not have been a factor at all.  But I can give the OP a nod as far as saying the game has problems it shouldnt, and the theory it was put out in a rushed state. 

     

    Because the alternative is far worse.  If thats not true then Blizzard isnt nearly as competent as many thought they were.

    Do not pretind GW2 is as a MMO. D3 is. Blizard is not sacred of this game. image

     

    Maybe Blizard has probims with TSW? Much likeley than GW2, yes? image

  • CorehavenCorehaven Colorado Springs, COPosts: 1,538Member
    Originally posted by 100PERCENT
    Originally posted by Corehaven

    Guys give the OP a break.  He's describing the kind of stuff that does literally go on in the industry all the time.  This we know. 

     

    So is it really THAT far out there?  Id say no.  I cant say I agree with it or think thats really what happened.  Its a fair theory.  I dont find it unlikely nor do I find it likely.  I just find it possible.  He's thought it out and he could very well be right on some points (of that I have no doubt) or even all or most of them. 

     

    You guys have to admit that much.  Its not so far out there we need to start talking about tin foil hats here. 

     

    There are things regarding D3 that scream of either incompetence or instead being rushed.  Such as the launch problems, as well as no PVP in the game.  You can say PVP doesnt matter to you and thats fine.  But they will add it.  And if they'll add it later then why wasnt it there in the first place?  Going back to the launch problems, this is Blizzard we're talking about here.  They should know how to run servers better than they have.  Like I said, its either incompetence which I kind of doubt, or it was being rushed.  Why was it being rushed? 

     

    Could be any number of reasons.  But avoiding the GW2 launch is just as reasonable a theory as any otheres.  There might have even been other reasons to go along with it, or GW2 might not have been a factor at all.  But I can give the OP a nod as far as saying the game has problems it shouldnt, and the theory it was put out in a rushed state. 

     

    Because the alternative is far worse.  If thats not true then Blizzard isnt nearly as competent as many thought they were.

    Do not pretind GW2 is as a MMO. D3 is. Blizard is not sacred of this game. image

     

    Maybe Blizard has probims with TSW? Much likeley than GW2, yes? image

     

    Well being that my post had nothing to do with...you know...ANY of that...then.....okay. 

     

    I wont "pretind" that GW2 is an mmo because it is one and pretending is not necessary.   Nor do I think "Blizard" thinks its sacred.  Oh you mean Blizzard isnt SCARED of GW2. 

     

    I gotcha.  Well, I dont think they are either now that they've released when they have and avoided it.  They only sold millions of copies so Im sure they're good and dandy.   Everyone bought it because it was a Blizzard game and had Diablo stamped on the front of it.  Which is all good. 

     

    And why would Blizzard have problems with The Secret World?  I dont even know why that would matter. 

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member
    Originally posted by StriderXed

    pretty sure that alot of people who do play D3, have no idea what GW2 is.

    People know, they don't live under a rock or something.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • troublmakertroublmaker St. George''s, NFPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by fldash

    lol, nice tinfoil hat theory you have there...

    It's not that crazy.  Mike Morhaime stated in the past that they designed a major patch release on launch day of any major MMO.  The idea here was that people who signed up for the new MMO could be lured back very quickly to WoW since there was something to do again.  Under this model they choke out the new MMO which isn't given a chance to develop and have a communtiy.

    Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube:

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    ....except the game is fun...

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by injenu
    You guys honestly think that people played D2 for over a decade because they liked killing monsters for loot all day?  No, it was the pvp, the ability to join and create any static game that you wanted, and because actually killing monsters yielded nice loot instead of the random stats on non character specific blues.If you don't believe, don't want to believe me, than google "Diablo 3 sucks" and you'll see all the reasons why this game fell egregiously short for anyone who played D2 for any great length of time.  It's like they're doing the same thing with D3 that they did with Star Craft 3.  Instead of releasing a finished product, they just release their games in snippets and call the additional content "expansions".  How can anyone honestly sit here and say that this is what they expected Blizzard to produce after 12 years spanning from their last release? It's a flat out insult for crying out loud. 

    D2 was one of my first online games i ever played and i played it over 4 years straight. i cant say that i agree with you that D3 sucks.

    yes its missing the pvp and yes i miss "going hostile" and the pk games. but does that mean D3 sucks because it doesn't have those features? not in my opinion.

    D3 actually fixed a lot of things that bugged me in D2 as well. i am having a blast playing the game right now but i do admit that they need to get the pvp rolling soon or i will have to take a break until they do.

  • 100PERCENT100PERCENT Sacramento, CAPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by TheHavok

    ....except the game is fun...

     

    +1 LOVEBARES

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon

    Well, it is clear that Blizz indeed moved away from the "release when it is ready" policy they had the last 15 years, if nothing else then because they decided to patch in PvP later.

    But blaming GW2 for it seems rather odd, if you want to blame anyone then blame Activsion instead. I guess they thought Blizz spent too much time developing the game.

    If it would have been GW1 that were releasing the same time there might have been some competition but if GW2 is competing with a Blizz game it is either Wow or Titan. Not the same type of game and most MMO players also play regular games at the side.

  • SaerainSaerain Barrington, RIPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by injenu

    If you don't believe, don't want to believe me, than google "Diablo 3 sucks" and you'll see all the reasons why this game fell egregiously short for anyone who played D2 for any great length of time.  It's like they're doing the same thing with D3 that they did with Star Craft 3.  Instead of releasing a finished product, they just release their games in snippets and call the additional content "expansions".  

    How can anyone honestly sit here and say that this is what they expected Blizzard to produce after 12 years spanning from their last release? It's a flat out insult for crying out loud. 

    I've been enjoying Diablo III, like I enjoyed StarCraft II, but both games have led me to wonder where Blizzard's massive profits from WoW have been going. Certainly not into WoW.

    Favorites: EVE, VG, LotRO | Playing: None | Anticipating: SC, ED, TD, EQN, CU
  • 100PERCENT100PERCENT Sacramento, CAPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by Loke666

    Well, it is clear that Blizz indeed moved away from the "release when it is ready" policy they had the last 15 years, if nothing else then because they decided to patch in PvP later.

    But blaming GW2 for it seems rather odd, if you want to blame anyone then blame Activsion instead. I guess they thought Blizz spent too much time developing the game.

    If it would have been GW1 that were releasing the same time there might have been some competition but if GW2 is competing with a Blizz game it is either Wow or Titan. Not the same type of game and most MMO players also play regular games at the side.

    No! D3 pvp is redy when redy but pve is fine. image

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 100PERCENT

    No! D3 pvp is redy when redy but pve is fine. image

    I did not say it wasn´t but Blizz would never have patched stuff like this before they merged with Activision.

  • 100PERCENT100PERCENT Sacramento, CAPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by 100PERCENT

    No! D3 pvp is redy when redy but pve is fine. image

    I did not say it wasn´t but Blizz would never have patched stuff like this before they merged with Activision.

    image do not hate  image

  • injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member

    I think we're underestimating GW2 here, as a threat to WoW Subs and the overall playerbase of D3.  For those that say that D3 is an MMO and that GW2 isn't? Seriously? Really? Honestly?   Maybe GW2 isn't an MMO in the WoW sense, but look at the Cover of PCGamer Magazine, from last month... It's headline reads Guild Wars 2... Best MMO ever? lol. I honestly don't want to get into arguing semantics of what and what isn't considered a persistent online game, but GW2 has all of the elements, and even more than any we've seen in the MMO genre.. such as, World vs. World vs World?  Is that massive enough?  The only key differences are that GW2 doesn't require a subscription and its focus is pvp.

    Also, no one else sees Blizzards strategy with offering a free D3 game with a 12 month subscription to WoW? That very well could be for Blizzard not to lose its subscription base of WoW to its own game, but it could also very well be protection against a game that is receiving nearly just as much hype as Diablo 3 did.  Perhaps GW2 isn't the main reason for this marketing strategy, but WoW is definitely pull out all of the stops in making as much money as it can, as well as tying up its current revenues.

     

    I've had people say that PvP doesn't belong in a single player game, to D3 is an MMO, to GW2 is not...

    I'm starting to wonder if I'm really taking crazy pills.

    Anyways.. The whole point in my post is that Blizzard did take a PR hit for the launch of this product, whether you feel its finished or not.  Something tells me that there's going to be DLC's, and large patches to incorporate more stuff in the relatively near future.  My hope, is that the community can get its act together and realize that if it makes it clear to Blizzard and its future fan base that this isn't right what they've done.  That way maybe instead of paying for DLC's, we'll just get large patches free of charge.  That's all.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by injenu

    I think we're underestimating GW2 here, as a threat to WoW Subs and the overall playerbase of D3.  For those that say that D3 is an MMO and that GW2 isn't? Seriously? Really? Honestly?   Maybe GW2 isn't an MMO in the WoW sense, but look at the Cover of PCGamer Magazine, from last month... It's headline reads Guild Wars 2... Best MMO ever? lol. I honestly don't want to get into arguing semantics of what and what isn't considered a persistent online game, but GW2 has all of the elements, and even more than any we've seen in the MMO genre.. such as, World vs. World vs World?  Is that massive enough?  The only key differences are that GW2 doesn't require a subscription and its focus is pvp.

    Also, no one else sees Blizzards strategy with offering a free D3 game with a 12 month subscription to WoW? That very well could be for Blizzard not to lose its subscription base of WoW to its own game, but it could also very well be protection against a game that is receiving nearly just as much hype as Diablo 3 did.  Perhaps GW2 isn't the main reason for this marketing strategy, but WoW is definitely pull out all of the stops in making as much money as it can, as well as tying up its current revenues.

     

    I've had people say that PvP doesn't belong in a single player game, to D3 is an MMO, to GW2 is not...

    I'm starting to wonder if I'm really taking crazy pills.

    Anyways.. The whole point in my post is that Blizzard did take a PR hit for the launch of this product, whether you feel its finished or not.  Something tells me that there's going to be DLC's, and large patches to incorporate more stuff in the relatively near future.  My hope, is that the community can get its act together and realize that if it makes it clear to Blizzard and its future fan base that this isn't right what they've done.  That way maybe instead of paying for DLC's, we'll just get large patches free of charge.  That's all.


    lol i'm sorry but you assume too much.  The game is fine.  Inferno is hard as holy hell but that was the purpose.

     New content will come free of charge.  Then they will release an expansion pack.

  • VolkmarVolkmar EspooPosts: 2,497Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.


    All right... there is a lot of stuff here and I say it plainly from the start that yes, I think you are a crazy conspiracy theorist.

    Let's go point by point:

    1) Guild Wars 2 is not even the same genre of game as Diablo. If you would have said Tera, with its actiony oriented system... maybe... but GW2 combat is much more Wow-like than Diablo-like. Also unless I missed something, GW2 is much more a MMO than a loot-oriented Hack & Slash Action RPG with not much of a story behind it (was true in Diablo 1.. was true in Diablo 2, is true in Diablo 3, the story is nice but definitely not needed here).

    Torchlight 2 is much more similar to Diablo so if you would have said they released D3 in May to go against T2... well then maybe there is merit to that. What I think is none of the above though. Blizzard knew they would get gazzilion of sales no matter WHEN they released Diablo 3.

    2) Diablo 3 is NOT partially done. Seemed quite complete to me. It's missing PvP you say? Well so did WoW at release! Or better... it had PvP but absolutely no context for it. Battlegrounds, honor points, rewards... all came later. So what was your point again? Blizzard does not care much for PvP? well I knew that in 2004! The PvE part is absolutely complete and Inferno had been touted for months to be really really really hard! It is supposed to be one step over Diablo 2... so it MUST be really hard!

    3)"This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. "  A Stretch you call it? Have you any idea what a coder does? Hint: it has nothing to do with graphics.

    Also Diablo 3 screenies have been around for years! Their style of graphics is not something they just suddenly changed in the last couple months.

    If you want an Hint on what a rushed out game looks like, look no further than Age of Conan. They clearly had the 1-20 content ready and nothing else. Diablo 3 has been in development for 7 YEARS, a couple months up or down won't do much of a difference, right? And surely not enough to change graphic style or "rush up" the game. You do not finish what took 7 years in a month or two!

    4) You NEVER owned any game! Legally at least, you always had just a LICENSE. That can be revoked at any time for about any reason from the game company. No one almost ever did (but that is why you can get banned) and it was hardly enforceable, but it has always been there for Software sales since the 1980s.

    5) Blizzard has never dealt in DLCs. Nothing said so far makes me believe they will start with Diablo. There will be FREE patches to add content (prolly not much), to add PvP and then we will have 2 expansions to make bigger changes and additions to the game, exactly what happened for Diablo 2. Now maybe they will offer DLCs in the future, but you might have noticed there were no "on-disk DLCs" nor "day-1 DLCs", so if you want to blow the DLC horn, you might have the wrong target. Hint: EA/Bioware is on that other forum, Capcom is thataway as well.

    6) What petition you are talking about?

    Finally: I'm sorry you think the game is half finished. I don't. Don't buy it if you think it is half finished, wait they implement PvP (as it seems that is all you care about... so why Diablo 3??? never been a pvp centric game, not even diablo 2 was), check how they implement PvP, prolly get disapointed by it... and walk away!

    The online-only will not go away. The Auction House does not affect me in the least, so I do not comment on it , never used and prolly will never use.

     

    "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"



  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by injenu

     

     This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    This above pretty much proves you have no idea what you are talking about at all.

    image
  • MikkelBMikkelB SteenwijkPosts: 240Member
    Originally posted by Volkmar
    Originally posted by injenu
     

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 


    All right... there is a lot of stuff here and I say it plainly from the start that yes, I think you are a crazy conspiracy theorist.

    Let's go point by point:

    1) Guild Wars 2 is not even the same genre of game as Diablo. If you would have said Tera, with its actiony oriented system... maybe... but GW2 combat is much more Wow-like than Diablo-like. Also unless I missed something, GW2 is much more a MMO than a loot-oriented Hack & Slash Action RPG with not much of a story behind it (was true in Diablo 1.. was true in Diablo 2, is true in Diablo 3, the story is nice but definitely not needed here).

    Torchlight 2 is much more similar to Diablo so if you would have said they released D3 in May to go against T2... well then maybe there is merit to that. What I think is none of the above though. Blizzard knew they would get gazzilion of sales no matter WHEN they released Diablo 3.

    2) Diablo 3 is NOT partially done. Seemed quite complete to me. It's missing PvP you say? Well so did WoW at release! Or better... it had PvP but absolutely no context for it. Battlegrounds, honor points, rewards... all came later. So what was your point again? Blizzard does not care much for PvP? well I knew that in 2004! The PvE part is absolutely complete and Inferno had been touted for months to be really really really hard! It is supposed to be one step over Diablo 2... so it MUST be really hard!

    3)"This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. "  A Stretch you call it? Have you any idea what a coder does? Hint: it has nothing to do with graphics.

    Also Diablo 3 screenies have been around for years! Their style of graphics is not something they just suddenly changed in the last couple months.

    If you want an Hint on what a rushed out game looks like, look no further than Age of Conan. They clearly had the 1-20 content ready and nothing else. Diablo 3 has been in development for 7 YEARS, a couple months up or down won't do much of a difference, right? And surely not enough to change graphic style or "rush up" the game. You do not finish what took 7 years in a month or two!

    4) You NEVER owned any game! Legally at least, you always had just a LICENSE. That can be revoked at any time for about any reason from the game company. No one almost ever did (but that is why you can get banned) and it was hardly enforceable, but it has always been there for Software sales since the 1980s.

    5) Blizzard has never dealt in DLCs. Nothing said so far makes me believe they will start with Diablo. There will be FREE patches to add content (prolly not much), to add PvP and then we will have 2 expansions to make bigger changes and additions to the game, exactly what happened for Diablo 2. Now maybe they will offer DLCs in the future, but you might have noticed there were no "on-disk DLCs" nor "day-1 DLCs", so if you want to blow the DLC horn, you might have the wrong target. Hint: EA/Bioware is on that other forum, Capcom is thataway as well.

    6) What petition you are talking about?

    Finally: I'm sorry you think the game is half finished. I don't. Don't buy it if you think it is half finished, wait they implement PvP (as it seems that is all you care about... so why Diablo 3??? never been a pvp centric game, not even diablo 2 was), check how they implement PvP, prolly get disapointed by it... and walk away!

    The online-only will not go away. The Auction House does not affect me in the least, so I do not comment on it , never used and prolly will never use.

    First of all, nice post from Volkmar, saves me the time adressing all those points image

    To the OP, I can't remember an instance in which Blizzard released DLC. Unless you mean the WoW Mini Pets, though every WoW player downloaded those for free. If you want to use them however, you need to pay. Then there's that estimate of 150 - 200 dollars worth of DLC. That's a ton! I can't think of any game having DLC that totals to that. Even Mass Effect 2 doesn't come close and that game got a ton of DLC.

    Have you taken a good look at the game? The PvE in Diablo 3 (the 'core'-part of the whole franchise) is finished and polished. The AH works perfectly. Being online isn't a problem for me anymore, despite the few bumpy days in the first week. If you still have problems, perhaps it's on your end. Blizzard seems to handle the balancing bit pretty good, wizard, monk and demon hunter all got quickly tweaked when it became clear that they went through Inferno too fast/easy. The only need to add in PvP and enable the RMAH and the game is totally finished. For me it's already finished, as I don't care about either the PvP or the RMAH (though it would be fun to expirement with how much money you can earn with it).

    In another post you say that people played Diablo 2 for the PvP. Realy? It's was the most lackluster, tacked on part in Diablo 2. I can understand that people enjoyed it, but to say that the reason people played Diablo 2 so long for the PvP is just silly.

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.

    Stop smoking weed dude.

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by Requiamer
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.

    Stop smoking weed dude.

    Thanks coffee all over my keyboard bro!!!

    image

  • injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Volkmar
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.


    All right... there is a lot of stuff here and I say it plainly from the start that yes, I think you are a crazy conspiracy theorist.

    Let's go point by point:

    1) Guild Wars 2 is not even the same genre of game as Diablo. If you would have said Tera, with its actiony oriented system... maybe... but GW2 combat is much more Wow-like than Diablo-like. Also unless I missed something, GW2 is much more a MMO than a loot-oriented Hack & Slash Action RPG with not much of a story behind it (was true in Diablo 1.. was true in Diablo 2, is true in Diablo 3, the story is nice but definitely not needed here).

    Torchlight 2 is much more similar to Diablo so if you would have said they released D3 in May to go against T2... well then maybe there is merit to that. What I think is none of the above though. Blizzard knew they would get gazzilion of sales no matter WHEN they released Diablo 3.

    2) Diablo 3 is NOT partially done. Seemed quite complete to me. It's missing PvP you say? Well so did WoW at release! Or better... it had PvP but absolutely no context for it. Battlegrounds, honor points, rewards... all came later. So what was your point again? Blizzard does not care much for PvP? well I knew that in 2004! The PvE part is absolutely complete and Inferno had been touted for months to be really really really hard! It is supposed to be one step over Diablo 2... so it MUST be really hard!

    3)"This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. "   A Stretch you call it? Have you any idea what a coder does? Hint: it has nothing to do with graphics. 

    Also Diablo 3 screenies have been around for years! Their style of graphics is not something they just suddenly changed in the last couple months.

    If you want an Hint on what a rushed out game looks like, look no further than Age of Conan. They clearly had the 1-20 content ready and nothing else. Diablo 3 has been in development for 7 YEARS, a couple months up or down won't do much of a difference, right? And surely not enough to change graphic style or "rush up" the game. You do not finish what took 7 years in a month or two!

    4) You NEVER owned any game! Legally at least, you always had just a LICENSE. That can be revoked at any time for about any reason from the game company. No one almost ever did (but that is why you can get banned) and it was hardly enforceable, but it has always been there for Software sales since the 1980s.

    5) Blizzard has never dealt in DLCs. Nothing said so far makes me believe they will start with Diablo. There will be FREE patches to add content (prolly not much), to add PvP and then we will have 2 expansions to make bigger changes and additions to the game, exactly what happened for Diablo 2. Now maybe they will offer DLCs in the future, but you might have noticed there were no "on-disk DLCs" nor "day-1 DLCs", so if you want to blow the DLC horn, you might have the wrong target. Hint: EA/Bioware is on that other forum, Capcom is thataway as well.

    6) What petition you are talking about?

    Finally: I'm sorry you think the game is half finished. I don't. Don't buy it if you think it is half finished, wait they implement PvP (as it seems that is all you care about... so why Diablo 3??? never been a pvp centric game, not even diablo 2 was), check how they implement PvP, prolly get disapointed by it... and walk away!

    The online-only will not go away. The Auction House does not affect me in the least, so I do not comment on it , never used and prolly will never use.

     

    1.  Guild Wars 2 is not even the same Genre as Diablo 3? This is very subjective, as you have two games that are both persistent online worlds without subscriptions based in a fantasy type environment.  It's also ironic how you guys talk about how this game is a single player game, yet it has no story? Diablo 3 is all about its story, and if anything GW2 lacks the story.  If it isn't about the story, why don't you just play "click a button until something a different color pops out" game, because that's what Diablo 3 is without its story.

    2. Blizzard doesn't care much about PvP? Do you not realize that Blizzard is the creator of Starcraft 2, which is basically the premiere eSports game in the world, other than league of legends?  This is not a finished game, as it would've balanced out pvp, done a whole lot more with the AH (i've sold more through general chat than ever on the AH), along with the bugs, the poorly thought out hell and inferno modes, and the fact that I rubber band all the time while having a 43 ms latency. 

    3. The fact that you think that this game is a viable product after 7 years of development makes me wonder if YOU KNOW WHAT A CODER IS.

    4. I'm sorry, maybe I'm a retard according to you, but what exactly is the real difference between a DLC and an expansion? It's additional content that you pay for.  I don't think I have to elaborate this for you.

    5. The game has a lot of potential as far as pvp goes, even if it is only in an arena format.  I don't honestly think they would make the actual PVE portion open to pvp, as it's somewhat counter intuitive, but if they came out with various formats for pvp the game could have a very strong following in this regard.

    The majority of your arguments and counterpoints to me are pretty subjective, basically using only semantics and your own very limited opinion to create any sort of legitimate reason why I would even attempt to see things in your view.  It's called being a fanboi, and you sir, certainly fit that description.

     

  • injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member
    Originally posted by Requiamer
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.

    Stop smoking weed dude.

    You realize half of the gaming industry would cease to exist if people didn't smoke? And no, I don't but maybe you should... It would probably give you something a little more creative and original to say.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.

    Not all of us, I don't get caught up in the hype. As soon as I found out that LAN play didn't exist and even single player was online for a simple multiplayer game I decided to never buy it. Also top that off with a stupid real life money auction, basically if you buy it for the price they asked you mind as well print sucker on your forehead.

  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Elmer, NJPosts: 1,857Member
    Originally posted by injenu

     

    This is why that petition is so important.

    Sorry, I failed mind reading class.  WHAT petition?

    Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.

  • timtracktimtrack StockholmPosts: 414Member Uncommon

    I blame 350z gt/Volvo.

  • VolkmarVolkmar EspooPosts: 2,497Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by injenu
    Originally posted by Volkmar
    Originally posted by injenu

    So this is what I'm thinking....

    In January of this year GW2 gives a little hint that they'll be releasing the following year around the same time... Then, in early April ArenaNet starts offerring Open-Beta testing with pre-orders, followed by the April 27th open beta weekend.  Blizzard most definitely got themselves a copy and after playing it come to the realization that GW2 is a lot closer to release than what was previously indicated... So they panicked.. 

    They knew that if GW2 were to release before Diablo III, which for all intensive purposes can be considered direct competition, that it  would ultimately hurt D3s initial release sales.  So they go into "worst case scenario" mode, realizing their own game in its current development state is going to be lacking seriously.  Sensing a June-ish release date from GW2, they have no choice but to release a partially done game.. 

    So development realizes that they're going to have to figure out a way to deliver the game in a piece by piece method, while also ensuring that the masses wont just tear through their unfinished game.  They decide to scrap trying to figure out pvp balancing, and focus on finishing up the overall PVE content itself.  This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. 

    As a means to slow down people from utterly ripping through the content, they just make inferno mode impossible for the layman player. They also reduce the drops so as to be able to figure out the best way to implement the RMAH.  The DRM is also a pretty good method of artificially controlling people from getting to the end point (a single player offline mode allows people to choose whether to update their game) ..

    Thinking along this path, you can kind of get a better scope as to how Blizzard is maximizing their sales.  The tragedy in all of this is that all of us basically paid full price to rent (DRM means you DO NOT own it) a partially finished game.  The greater insult is that most of us will probably also pay to purchase DLCs piece by piece, until Blizzard decides to actually make right on their committment in providing an adequate version of Diablo 3.  I'm thinking they intend on milking us for about $150-200 for their full, envisioned finished product. 

    This is why that petition is so important. The more signatures that the petition gets, the higher likelihood that a class action suit will be filed, and the greater the chances that Blizzard does NOT charge its playerbase for paying for their own failures.  Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but if you honestly think that this game is anywhere near complete in its current state, with the DRM, as well as the lack of pvp, proper balancing, and the broken AH, then I'm sorry, but you should really take a seriously better look. 

    So what do you guys think? Am I some crazy conspiracy theorist? Or does this make some sense?

    injenu.


    All right... there is a lot of stuff here and I say it plainly from the start that yes, I think you are a crazy conspiracy theorist.

    Let's go point by point:

    1) Guild Wars 2 is not even the same genre of game as Diablo. If you would have said Tera, with its actiony oriented system... maybe... but GW2 combat is much more Wow-like than Diablo-like. Also unless I missed something, GW2 is much more a MMO than a loot-oriented Hack & Slash Action RPG with not much of a story behind it (was true in Diablo 1.. was true in Diablo 2, is true in Diablo 3, the story is nice but definitely not needed here).

    Torchlight 2 is much more similar to Diablo so if you would have said they released D3 in May to go against T2... well then maybe there is merit to that. What I think is none of the above though. Blizzard knew they would get gazzilion of sales no matter WHEN they released Diablo 3.

    2) Diablo 3 is NOT partially done. Seemed quite complete to me. It's missing PvP you say? Well so did WoW at release! Or better... it had PvP but absolutely no context for it. Battlegrounds, honor points, rewards... all came later. So what was your point again? Blizzard does not care much for PvP? well I knew that in 2004! The PvE part is absolutely complete and Inferno had been touted for months to be really really really hard! It is supposed to be one step over Diablo 2... so it MUST be really hard!

    3)"This might be a stretch, but I bet they brought in some coders from WoW (why the game has similar graphics), and tried to polish/debug what they had for a release. "   A Stretch you call it? Have you any idea what a coder does? Hint: it has nothing to do with graphics. 

    Also Diablo 3 screenies have been around for years! Their style of graphics is not something they just suddenly changed in the last couple months.

    If you want an Hint on what a rushed out game looks like, look no further than Age of Conan. They clearly had the 1-20 content ready and nothing else. Diablo 3 has been in development for 7 YEARS, a couple months up or down won't do much of a difference, right? And surely not enough to change graphic style or "rush up" the game. You do not finish what took 7 years in a month or two!

    4) You NEVER owned any game! Legally at least, you always had just a LICENSE. That can be revoked at any time for about any reason from the game company. No one almost ever did (but that is why you can get banned) and it was hardly enforceable, but it has always been there for Software sales since the 1980s.

    5) Blizzard has never dealt in DLCs. Nothing said so far makes me believe they will start with Diablo. There will be FREE patches to add content (prolly not much), to add PvP and then we will have 2 expansions to make bigger changes and additions to the game, exactly what happened for Diablo 2. Now maybe they will offer DLCs in the future, but you might have noticed there were no "on-disk DLCs" nor "day-1 DLCs", so if you want to blow the DLC horn, you might have the wrong target. Hint: EA/Bioware is on that other forum, Capcom is thataway as well.

    6) What petition you are talking about?

    Finally: I'm sorry you think the game is half finished. I don't. Don't buy it if you think it is half finished, wait they implement PvP (as it seems that is all you care about... so why Diablo 3??? never been a pvp centric game, not even diablo 2 was), check how they implement PvP, prolly get disapointed by it... and walk away!

    The online-only will not go away. The Auction House does not affect me in the least, so I do not comment on it , never used and prolly will never use.

     

    1.  Guild Wars 2 is not even the same Genre as Diablo 3? This is very subjective, as you have two games that are both persistent online worlds without subscriptions based in a fantasy type environment.  It's also ironic how you guys talk about how this game is a single player game, yet it has no story? Diablo 3 is all about its story, and if anything GW2 lacks the story.  If it isn't about the story, why don't you just play "click a button until something a different color pops out" game, because that's what Diablo 3 is without its story.

    2. Blizzard doesn't care much about PvP? Do you not realize that Blizzard is the creator of Starcraft 2, which is basically the premiere eSports game in the world, other than league of legends?  This is not a finished game, as it would've balanced out pvp, done a whole lot more with the AH (i've sold more through general chat than ever on the AH), along with the bugs, the poorly thought out hell and inferno modes, and the fact that I rubber band all the time while having a 43 ms latency. 

    3. The fact that you think that this game is a viable product after 7 years of development makes me wonder if YOU KNOW WHAT A CODER IS.

    4. I'm sorry, maybe I'm a retard according to you, but what exactly is the real difference between a DLC and an expansion? It's additional content that you pay for.  I don't think I have to elaborate this for you.

    5. The game has a lot of potential as far as pvp goes, even if it is only in an arena format.  I don't honestly think they would make the actual PVE portion open to pvp, as it's somewhat counter intuitive, but if they came out with various formats for pvp the game could have a very strong following in this regard.

    The majority of your arguments and counterpoints to me are pretty subjective, basically using only semantics and your own very limited opinion to create any sort of legitimate reason why I would even attempt to see things in your view.  It's called being a fanboi, and you sir, certainly fit that description.

     


    1. Diablo 3 world is not persistent it is created on the fly everytime you log in.The dungeons and mobs are all different. Your character is persistent and also your progression is persistent, but from that to a full world that is online 24/7... yeah, I call it a difference.

    Also Call of Duty has persistent characters and progression, so you want to tell me that a Fantasy CoD would be same genre as Guild Wars 2, regardless of one being a FPS and the other being a MMORPG?

    Sorry, I disagree. I place GW2 in same genre as WoW, EQ2, etc. an MMORPG. Diablo is an Action RPG. other games of the same genre are Torchlight, Sacred, Path of Exile, Throne of Darkness and many more, but not WoW or EQ. If you think differently, well *shrug*. In the end, the only thing they have in common is: you pay just the box and you need to be online to play. Assassin's Creed 2 also does that, same genre too?

    2. Starcraft is Starcraft. Diablo is Diablo. Blizzard already announced they have no intention to transform Diablo in an E-sport like they did for Starcraft.

    So allright, I should have said "Blizzard has no much interest in PvP for Diablo". If they would have, Diablo 3 would release with PvP centric systems and not much PvE if at all, like League of Legend for example.

    3. I know what a Coder is, you clearly don't. The fact the product is viable after 7 years of development seems quite proven to me. It sold a bucketloads, it got great reviews and above all: It is technically well done! Animations are smooth, response of your character is solid, everything feel smooth and nice (lag permitting)..... No one is bitching about any of that. The whining is about always online connection, real money auction house and skill tree changes from Diablo 2. Even you.... you want a PvP game... and if this would not be technically well done, what kind of crappy pvp game would it be? the fact you are still looking forward to it should answer your own question.

    4. First off, I never called you names. Second off, DLC is a new term, it identifies a certain kind of products. Usually smaller than an expansion and cheaper. You know that ,you are just playing here, so stop doing that if you want a serious discussion.

    5. Good. Maybe then they will make something you like.

    Finally, how my points are different from yours? Did you gain access to the Cosmic Encyclopedia of Universal Truths and did not tell anyone?

    Were you points based on facts and evidence? if so I did not see any. I assumed they were your opinion and I answered in kind.

    "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"



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